Topic: Vaccine Nuts are at it Again...

[Alan_X]

The Excellent podcast 'Skeptics with a K' by the Merseyside Skeptics drew my attention to a story in the Daily Mail with this headline:

'Perhaps we now have the link between vaccination and autism': Professor reveals aluminium in jabs may cause sufferers to have up 10 times more of the metal in their brains than is safe.'

The authors of the article are Professor Chris Exley For The Hippocratic Post and Alexandra Thompson Health Reporter For Mailonline

I'm not going to post the article or the link but it is a shockingly bad article that reports on a study that is badly constructed and actually shows nothing of the kind.

The study looked at 15 brain samples from people with autism. None of them were children, there was no evidence whether any of them had actually been vaccinated. The high results for aluminium were not consistent and quite possibly anomalies and outliers that should have been discounted.

No 'normal' brains were tested and no controls were used to ensure the high readings of aluminium were not a result of contamination in the equipment.

There was nothing to establish what a normal level of aluminium should be. The only reference was to a '60 brain study' which despite the name was not a study of 60 brains but the study of a single 60-year-old man with Alzheimers.

The marker that was meant to show the presence of aluminium was not shown to be a marker for aluminium.

And so on. It is an appalling study that will no doubt be cited by the anti-vaxxers as 'proof' of something.

So who is Chris Exley? He's a man with an obsession with Aluminium. He also thinks aluminium causes Alzheimers and Cancer, and surprisingly his research is funded by makers of silicon rich water that is claimed can reduce the amount of... err... aluminium in the body.

The fight agsint the nutters will never cease it seems.

[PhilV]

the crazy is strong with anti-vaxers my friend

[redbyrdz]

Where was that study published? I'm amazed it went through peer-review.

Also, why is the Mail allowed to publish dengerous shite like that? I'm all for freedom of the press obviously, but i don't think it should include endagering people's lives by spreading lies. If this was an advertising campaign, it would be pulled, but somehow if a popular newspaper writes it, its ok.

[SP]

The study referenced:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0946672X17308763

A paper from: Journal of Trace Elements in Medicine and Biology

[zero zero]

No 'normal' brains were tested...

The preferred word to use is - typical - , then you can drop the quote marks.

eg. 70% of children with autism are fussy eaters versus a figure of 25% for typical children.

Nothing at all to add about The Dialy Heil meeting it's usual standards of accuracy and journalistic integrity, just that every similar article gives anti-vaxxers a boost by eroding the advice of actual experts.

[Yanwoo]

The study referenced:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0946672X17308763

A paper from: Journal of Trace Elements in Medicine and Biology

Is a decent journal, reasonable impact factor.

I see from original submission to acceptance was less than a month. That's very very quick, and generally very unusual for most journals.

[classycarra]

Is a decent journal, reasonable impact factor.

I see from original submission to acceptance was less than a month. That's very very quick, and generally very unusual for most journals.

A journal is only as decent as the material it deems worthy of presenting under it's name. Separately, because I know you aren't saying this, but good 'impact' doesn't equal good science. Wakefield had a great deal of impact. Agree about the short turnaround, expect they paid for the privilege in some way.

This particular study is funded by a grant from anti vaccine group Children’s Medical Safety Research Institute (CMSRI). Wouldn't be surprising if it ends up being retracted.

Quick google on previous studies they've been involved in:

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/no-two-studies-purporting-to-show-that-vaccinated-children-are-sicker-than-unvaccinated-children-show-nothing-of-the-sort/

https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2017/05/06/why-this-vaxed-v-unvaxed-study-is-not-valid/

[Yanwoo]

A journal is only as decent as the material it deems worthy of presenting under it's name. Separately, because I know you aren't saying this, but good 'impact' doesn't equal good science. Wakefield had a great deal of impact. Agree about the short turnaround, expect they paid for the privilege in some way.

This particular study is funded by a grant from anti vaccine group Children’s Medical Safety Research Institute (CMSRI). Wouldn't be surprising if it ends up being retracted.

Quick google on previous studies they've been involved in:

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/no-two-studies-purporting-to-show-that-vaccinated-children-are-sicker-than-unvaccinated-children-show-nothing-of-the-sort/

https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2017/05/06/why-this-vaxed-v-unvaxed-study-is-not-valid/

I literally mean its impact factor: https://www.researchgate.net/journal/1878-3252_Journal_of_Trace_Elements_in_Medicine_and_Biology

a score of 3.2 puts it in the top 20% ish of journals, but then there is a lot of rubbish journals with a score < 1.

it's a crude but pretty widely used way of quickly assessing journal quality.

[classycarra]

I literally mean its impact factor: https://www.researchgate.net/journal/1878-3252_Journal_of_Trace_Elements_in_Medicine_and_Biology

a score of 3.2 puts it in the top 20% ish of journals, but then there is a lot of rubbish journals with a score < 1.

it's a crude but pretty widely used way of quickly assessing journal quality.

Oh yeah, i knew what you meant and that you were saying impact factor, not just impact. I just thought it was worth adding the rest for those less familiar with academic journals.

It's definitely crude, and it's use as a credibility judge is something that skews more towards favouring quacks and bad science than it does to picking out a potential issue on the horizon

[BobOnATank]

Also don't forget the other angle that continues the disgusting nonsense that parents are to blame for their children being autistic. For absolutely years it was drilled into people, mothers especially, that it was something they ate or they ate too much - women were blamed for being slightly overweight when pregnant, how about that for a headfuck. But whatever it was it was definitely their fault that their child had autism. This type of shite serves only to bring that back. Trust me if you have a wonderful autistic child in your life you can stir up enough guilt within yourself in the hard times without the daily heil and others out to make a quick quid.

[It's Jimmy Corkhill]

It's absolutely mental that this shite is still being peddled.

[Libertine]

Is a decent journal, reasonable impact factor.

I see from original submission to acceptance was less than a month. That's very very quick, and generally very unusual for most journals.

That's insane. Presumably that was a straight acceptance from the reviewers, there wouldn't have been time for a round of revisions. Even the highest quality papers will mostly have some minor revisions upon review.

I can get quite irritated with how slowly some papers are processed but at least there's usually good quality control and robust argument with reviewers. That said, I've seen some dreadful papers in journals with higher IFs than the one here - journals are only really as good as the reviewers they use.

[So… Howard Philips]

It's absolutely mental that this shite is still being peddled.

Probably because the Mail have over dosed on Corbyn bashing, May praising and Royal wedding hoohah they need to get back to serious journalism.

[Brian Blessed]

Another massive study, another conclusion that water is wet. These anti-vaxer cranks...

Conclusion:
The study strongly supports that MMR vaccination does not increase the risk for autism, does not trigger autism in susceptible children, and is not associated with clustering of autism cases after vaccination. It adds to previous studies through significant additional statistical power and by addressing hypotheses of susceptible subgroups and clustering of cases.

https://annals.org/aim/article-abstract/2727726/measles-mumps-rubella-vaccination-autism-nationwide-cohort-study

657,461 children studied, vs 15 brains in the article Al was referring to in the OP.

[Red-Soldier]

https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/29-11-2018-measles-cases-spike-globally-due-to-gaps-in-vaccination-coverage

Measles cases spike globally due to gaps in vaccination coverage

Reported measles cases spiked in 2017, as multiple countries experienced severe and protracted outbreaks of the disease. This is according to a new report published today by leading health organizations.

Because of gaps in vaccination coverage, measles outbreaks occurred in all regions, while there were an estimated 110 000 deaths related to the disease.

Using updated disease modelling data, the report provides the most comprehensive estimates of measles trends over the last 17 years. It shows that since 2000, over 21 million lives have been saved through measles immunizations. However, reported cases increased by more than 30 percent worldwide from 2016.

The Americas, the Eastern Mediterranean Region, and Europe experienced the greatest upsurges in cases in 2017, with the Western Pacific the only World Health Organization (WHO) region where measles incidence fell.

“The resurgence of measles is of serious concern, with extended outbreaks occurring across regions, and particularly in countries that had achieved, or were close to achieving measles elimination,” said Dr Soumya Swaminathan, Deputy Director General for Programmes at WHO. “Without urgent efforts to increase vaccination coverage and identify populations with unacceptable levels of under-, or unimmunized children, we risk losing decades of progress in protecting children and communities against this devastating, but entirely preventable disease.”

[So… Howard Philips]

Another massive study, another conclusion that water is wet. These anti-vaxer cranks...

Conclusion:
The study strongly supports that MMR vaccination does not increase the risk for autism, does not trigger autism in susceptible children, and is not associated with clustering of autism cases after vaccination. It adds to previous studies through significant additional statistical power and by addressing hypotheses of susceptible subgroups and clustering of cases.

https://annals.org/aim/article-abstract/2727726/measles-mumps-rubella-vaccination-autism-nationwide-cohort-study

Who needs experts when you can just make it up as you go along?

Unfortunately we have increasingly stupid parents who will ignore science but smoke, drink,take drugs and eat shite but will use any excuse not to get their kids vaccinated.

But you just have to look how many don't turn up for medical appointments or ignore planned screening exercises such as cervical cancer or bowel cancer to realise we are living in an empire of stupidity.

[Alan_X]

Who needs experts when you can just make it up as you go along?

Unfortunately we have increasingly stupid parents who will ignore science but smoke, drink,take drugs and eat shite but will use any excuse not to get their kids vaccinated.

But you just have to look how many don't turn up for medical appointments or ignore planned screening exercises such as cervical cancer or Howells cancer to realise we are living in an empire of stupidity.

I understand what you're saying but this is a very different issue. Individual irresponsibility or laziness is one thing. If you don;t bother turning up for an appointment and you die of heart disease it's sad but it affects you and your family.

Vaccination requires everyone to be vaccinated to create herd immunity. If a few people don't get vaccinated and her immunity drops then other people get ill and they die.

And on top of that it's not just individual laziness and irresponsibility. There are c*nts who are actively campaigning against vaccination.

[Elmo!]

I understand what you're saying but this is a very different issue. Individual irresponsibility or laziness is one thing. If you don;t bother turning up for an appointment and you die of heart disease it's sad but it affects you and your family.

Vaccination requires everyone to be vaccinated to create herd immunity. If a few people don't get vaccinated and her immunity drops then other people get ill and they die.

And on top of that it's not just individual laziness and irresponsibility. There are c*nts who are actively campaigning against vaccination.

Well no, because it wastes an appointment someone else could have had.... but I agree with the main point.

[TepidT2O]

These people are wicked, evil people.


There is no other explanation for their lies.

[rob1966]

I researched all I could about the vaccines and found the scare mongering was all bollocks - both my lads got all their vaccinations, other than a rash on a knee, both kids were fine and are doing great.

Sadly, like you are all saying, too many people believe any old lies, don't fact check and put their kids at risk.

[Elmo!]

I didn't get any of my vaccines as a kid (apart from Tetanus) - sadly my parents were early believers in anti-vaxx stuff, way before all the autism stuff came out. It goes back 3 generations in my family, and sadly there is a tragic story that has reinforced the belief in my mum and her brother and sisters. I never argue with them about it because it brings up too many painful memories.

Luckily my generation - my sisters and all my cousins - have all to the best of my knowledge come to the conclusion that anti-vaxxers are a bunch of nutters and are getting their kids vaccinated.

[Indomitable_Carp]

My wonderful mother was heavily into the anti-vax thing growing up. Managed to talk my old man out of the flu jab.

I got mumps once. It was fucking shite. I made sure to get MMR'd up ASAP.

[Kekule]

I researched all I could about the vaccines and found the scare mongering was all bollocks - both my lads got all their vaccinations, other than a rash on a knee, both kids were fine and are doing great.

Sadly, like you are all saying, too many people believe any old lies, don't fact check and put their kids at risk.

I'm one of the last generations that never got the MMR as kids because it just wasn't freely available.  The girls got rubella jabs but nowt for the boys.  I got both Mumps and Rubella (or German Measles as we called it then), quite a few people at my school got it and fortunately no-one had any complications or long term effects that I know of.  It was fucking horrible for a week or two though, I still remember how dreadful I felt.

That leads some people to think "well I got it, and it never did me any harm", and dismiss it as if it's no different to the common cold.  They believe that their personal experience of it, as a relatively healthy child, is more relevant than a medical professional's understanding.  They've never seen anyone suffer badly from it, therefore it's grossly exaggerated.

Why they then believe the stories of "vaccine damage" when they've never witnessed it, I don't know. Although I suspect it maybe an excuse and what it really is is part laziness, part the fact people just don't like going to the docs, and a large bit of not relishing the experience of having someone stick needles in their little one.  I work in the pharmaceutical industry, I know the importance of getting kids and people vaccinated.  Yet even though I know that I still had a twinge of guilt as both my girls screwed their innocent and trusting little faces up and started crying after they'd been jabbed.  It makes you feel very crappy for a little while. Rather that though, than a week of them having a neck like a balloon, unable to swallow and feeling like shite for 10 days, and who knows what else, when they're a bit older and knowing I could have done something to prevent it.

"I don't want my kid to get autism, you hear these stories" is probably a front for "I can't handle seeing my little angel getting upset."   

[Alan_X]

...Rather that though, than a week of them having a neck like a balloon, unable to swallow and feeling like shite for 10 days...

Or watching your child die from a preventable disease.


Key facts

    Even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available, in 2017, there were 110 000 measles deaths globally, mostly among children under the age of five.
    Measles vaccination resulted in a 80% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2017 worldwide.
    In 2017, about 85% of the world's children received one dose of measles vaccine by their first birthday through routine health services – up from 72% in 2000.
    During 2000-2017, measles vaccination prevented an estimated 21.1 million deaths making measles vaccine one of the best buys in public health.



https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/measles

Obviously it's great that 21 million deaths have been prevented in seventeen years, and there were 'only' 110,000 deaths in 2017 but most of those deaths will be children under five.

Anti-vaxers are child-killing c*nts. Simple as that.

[Kekule]

Or watching your child die from a preventable disease.


Key facts

    Even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available, in 2017, there were 110 000 measles deaths globally, mostly among children under the age of five.
    Measles vaccination resulted in a 80% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2017 worldwide.
    In 2017, about 85% of the world's children received one dose of measles vaccine by their first birthday through routine health services – up from 72% in 2000.
    During 2000-2017, measles vaccination prevented an estimated 21.1 million deaths making measles vaccine one of the best buys in public health.



https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/measles

Obviously it's great that 21 million deaths have been prevented in seventeen years, and there were 'only' 110,000 deaths in 2017 but most of those deaths will be children under five.

Anti-vaxers are child-killing c*nts. Simple as that.

Did you hear about the French couple who took their unvaccinated kid on holiday to Costa Rica last month, and potentially re-introduced measles into a region that had been free of the disease for 5 years?   

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/measles-costa-rica-french-tourist-boy-anti-vax-vaccination-who-global-health-threat-infection-mmr-a8794256.html

What can you do?  Then the c*nts say stuff like "ah, but that kid was vaccinated and they still got it, just shows it doesn't work."   That's because it's only effective when ~85% of the population are vaccinated/naturally immune.  You lot have dropped the herd immunity below that level and now anyone could get it.

Measles was well on the way to being eliminated.  In another couple of decades or so it could well have, like smallpox, only existed under storage at the CDC.  Not now.

[richmond-red]

Rand Paul, the Libertarian politician, is one who champions parents' rights to not get their kids vaccinated. IMHO the man is a clown and here is an excellent rebuttal of his arguments from a Chicago Tribune editorial:-

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chapman/ct-perspec-chapman-paul-measles-vaccine-autism-0307-20190306-story.html

[Broad Spectrum]

It’s spreading to veterinay medicine as well. I personally think it should be law for children to be vaccinated.

[Red Beret]

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/gpEXtTzz5Aw" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/gpEXtTzz5Aw</a>

[Broad Spectrum]

Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

[Chakan]

Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

Fantastic! Well done Italy.

[[new username under construction]]

Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

Just make it a law, like, now

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

and they’re run by some absolute nutters there!

[Libertine]

and they’re run by some absolute nutters there!

Yeah, very surprising that.

Both populist parties (far right and the other idiots) campaigned against this but then changed their minds. Perhaps reality does hit when these twats have to take responsibility....

[Elmo!]

Yeah, very surprising that.

Both populist parties (far right and the other idiots) campaigned against this but then changed their minds. Perhaps reality does hit when these twats have to take responsibility....

Meanwhile in the UK our twats in charge have to start taking responsibility before reality can hit....

[Broad Spectrum]

It’s actually an ingenious way to tackle the problem. Rather than the dictotorial approach of you must vaccinate, which to be fair would be entirely justified, it’s a softly-softly approach of fine you don’t have to vaccinate your kids, but they won’t be entering the education system.

[vagabond]

It’s actually an ingenious way to tackle the problem. Rather than the dictotorial approach of you must vaccinate, which to be fair would be entirely justified, it’s a softly-softly approach of fine you don’t have to vaccinate your kids, but they won’t be entering the education system.

I'm not so sure about this. Hopefully the parents will see sense and vaccinate their kids and send them to school. But I can imagine a subset of these people digging in and home schooling their kids. In other words, the kids will become even greater victims of their parents' stupidity.

Should just mandate vaccination and protect the kids from their stupid parents.

[redbyrdz]

It’s actually an ingenious way to tackle the problem. Rather than the dictotorial approach of you must vaccinate, which to be fair would be entirely justified, it’s a softly-softly approach of fine you don’t have to vaccinate your kids, but they won’t be entering the education system.

You run the risk of leaving those kid in the hand of their nutter parents for home schooling.

[Jimmy Conway]

As a parent of an autistic child (who is an amazing little boy, may I add), I find these people highly offensive. Its got feck all to do with vaccines.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

It’s actually an ingenious way to tackle the problem. Rather than the dictotorial approach of you must vaccinate, which to be fair would be entirely justified, it’s a softly-softly approach of fine you don’t have to vaccinate your kids, but they won’t be entering the education system.

But the parents should still be fined and jailed if their kids don't attend school 

[WhereAngelsPlay]

You run the risk of leaving those kid in the hand of their nutter parents for home schooling.

Better that than putting other children in danger.