Topic: Malaysian passenger plane reportedly shot down.

[JohnHobbes]

Why would it be unimaginable?

Why would they? They have the sympathy of most nations already and to do this would destroy all that in an instant, especially as the chances of them "getting away with it" is remote. There will be enough satellite coverage of the area to show if the Ukraine Air Force shot them down, or correspondingly if it was from a missile battery in Ukraine territory.

[dundeered]

Jeez , horrible incident ,RIP

[gazzalfc]

No confirmation it was shot down yet. Both sides denying responsibility. No intelligence to say that pro-russians or Ukrainians held the technology needed to shoot down a commercial flight.

Plus its not the first Malaysian airlines flight do go down in unknown circumstances this year.

9 britons on the flight

[CornerFlag]

Interior ministry advisor to Interfax News (a Russian News Agency) saying over 300 are dead...

Source: https://twitter.com/ReutersWorld/status/489824865890074624 (a verified account).

[JerseyKloppite]

Why would it be unimaginable?

Because it is implausible and ridiculous.

Their situation is undeniably difficult but most of the Western world is siding with the Government of Ukraine. The possible gain of other countries condemning the rebels would be nowhere NEAR worth the risk of someone finding out that the government had done it intentionally in a 'false flag' attack. It would jeopardize the future of Ukraine as a state, lose them all international support and enormously strengthen the position of the rebels.

[Anywhichwayicant]

Because it is implausible and ridiculous.

Their situation is undeniably difficult but most of the Western world is siding with the Government of Ukraine. The possible gain of other countries condemning the rebels would be nowhere NEAR worth the risk of someone finding out that the government had done it intentionally in a 'false flag' attack. It would jeopardize the future of Ukraine as a state, lose them all international support and enormously strengthen the position of the rebels.

It's a war, the implausible and ridiculous are common occurrences.


Anyway, let's wait for further news.

[CornerFlag]

Sky News has "Sky Sources: Plane flying in restricted area 'Unsuitable for civilian aircraft'" on their channel.  Just going to lead to more speculation.

[Cruiser]

This is unbelievable. RIP to those on board.

Hopefully no stone will be left unturned and if anyone is responsible they face the toughest justice possible. With reports of at least 2 dozen or so US citizens on board, the US govt will pile the pressure on Ukraine and Russia to get to the bottom of this.

[JongWK]

Roland Oliphant, from The Telegraph, reports from Moscow:

The following was posted on Igor Strelkov's Vkontakte page at 17:50 Moscow time, about an hour before news of the 777 crash broke:

"Message from the militia:
"In the district of Torez an An-26 was just shot down. It crashed somewhere near the Progress mine. We warned them not to fly in "our skies". Here is video confirmation of the latest "fallen bird". The bird landed outside the residential zone, no peaceful civilians were injured."
There is also information of a second downed plane, probably an Su" [a Sukhoi combat jet].

Mr Strekov lated posted copy from an Interfax wire that quotes another rebel leader denying involvement in the 777 downing, saying the DNR does not have any weapons capably of bringing down an aircraft at 10,000 meters.

Torez lies 40 miles east of Donetsk, and appears to correspond to the location of the 777 crash, but this cannot be confirmed and it is unclear whether Mr Strelkov or the militia men who sent in the report mistook the 777 for an An-26 or whether two aircraft were downed in the same area.

[Snail]

Interior ministry advisor to Interfax News (a Russian News Agency) saying over 300 are dead...

Source: https://twitter.com/ReutersWorld/status/489824865890074624 (a verified account).

Jesus Christ. RIP.

[JerseyKloppite]

19:00: A tweet (in Russian) from a key Twitter account used by pro-Russian separatists, in which they claim to have captured a Buk surface-to-air missile system, has now been deleted, BBC Monitoring observes. Ukrainians say the Malaysian plane could have been downed with a Buk, but pro-Russian rebels have now denied they have it.

From BBC.

[JongWK]

At least 23 US citizens among the passengers, according to Interfax.

[Red Beret]

19:00: A tweet (in Russian) from a key Twitter account used by pro-Russian separatists, in which they claim to have captured a Buk surface-to-air missile system, has now been deleted, BBC Monitoring observes. Ukrainians say the Malaysian plane could have been downed with a Buk, but pro-Russian rebels have now denied they have it.

From BBC.

So they have essentially gone from bragging about downing a plane to denying they even have the capability?

[JerseyKloppite]

So they have essentially gone from bragging about downing a plane to denying they even have the capability?

It doesn't prove anything - I'm sure they'd be careful to check what boasts they'd made whether they've done it or not. But it looks obviously suspect.

[Malaysian Kopite]

This is just horrible.

[JohnHobbes]

It doesn't prove anything - I'm sure they'd be careful to check what boasts they'd made whether they've done it or not. But it looks obviously suspect.

The fact there was a tweet claiming they'd captured a Buk missile system and then another that they'd downed a transport plane in the area the airliner crashed, which have been since been swiftly deleted is definitely very suspicious but obviously not conclusive.

The Buk missile system's radar doesn't have a way of picking up if a plane is civilian or not, so the rebels might not have realised they weren't tracking a Ukrainian transport but instead a civilian aeroplane.

[Zizou]

If they did mistake the Malaysian 777 for a Ukrainian cargo plane then the people who look worst of all from all this are the Russians for giving such deadly weapons (if they did) to a band of ragtag amateurs.
Who takes potshots at any jet they see at cruising altitude? It's insanity. Utter insanity.

[Kashinoda]

There are videos of the explosion happening as the flight his the ground.

If it was hit by a Buk missile, surely it would have been blown to pieces in the air?

[Macphisto80]

So they have essentially gone from bragging about downing a plane to denying they even have the capability?

They never did brag about anything. There have only been denials.

[unknownuser]

Terrible news. Thought it was the other plane that went missing at first. RIP all on board.

[Macphisto80]

There are videos of the explosion happening as the flight his the ground.

If it was hit by a Buk missile, surely it would have been blown to pieces in the air?

Depends where it hits the plane, doesn't it?

[Red Beret]

They never did brag about anything. There have only been denials.

What's this then?

The following was posted on Igor Strelkov's Vkontakte page at 17:50 Moscow time, about an hour before news of the 777 crash broke:

"Message from the militia:

"In the district of Torez an An-26 was just shot down. It crashed somewhere near the Progress mine. We warned them not to fly in "our skies". Here is video confirmation of the latest "fallen bird". The bird landed outside the residential zone, no peaceful civilians were injured."

There is also information of a second downed plane, probably an Su" [a Sukhoi combat jet].

[Tom_B]

There are videos of the explosion happening as the flight his the ground.

If it was hit by a Buk missile, surely it would have been blown to pieces in the air?

Depends where it gets hit. There were eyewitnesses saying the plane came down in two parts.

[Red Beret]

Depends where it hits the plane, doesn't it?

Well that KA Flight 007 was targeted by two air to air missiles fired from a jet fighter and flew on for another 12 minutes. 

Granted there's probably a gulf in technology between the two incidents, but if the plane just lost its tail or a wing before spiralling down, perhaps breaking into two or three large pieces before it crashed then I would say video of the event is plausible. 

We'll just have to see what the video reveals about the condition of the aircraft before it crashed.

[Cruiser]

There are videos of the explosion happening as the flight his the ground.

If it was hit by a Buk missile, surely it would have been blown to pieces in the air?

Not necessarily. If the warhead was controlled by a proximity fuse it would explode at a set distance to the target, not necessarily on impact. This is needed when chasing fast and manouverable tagets like jet fighters where a direct hit isn't always possible.

The explosion and fragments would be sufficient enough to cause massive damage to the aircraft but still allow a large portion of it to remain intact.

[Macphisto80]

What's this then?

I mean bragging about shooting down a passenger jet. Either way, statements like that are non-conclusive. Anyone could have written that.

[viteslesrouges]

RT said that Putin's plane was about 30 minutes behind the Malaysian aircraft on pretty much the same flight path...................

[JongWK]

Not necessarily. If the warhead was controlled by a proximity fuse it would explode at a set distance to the target, not necessarily on impact. This is needed when chasing fast and manouverable tagets like jet fighters where a direct hit isn't always possible.

The explosion and fragments would be sufficient enough to cause massive damage to the aircraft but still allow a large portion of it to remain intact.

Correct:

"Each missile is 5.55 m (18 feet) long, weighs 690 kg (1521 lb) and carries a relatively large 70 kg (154 lb) warhead which is triggered by a radar proximity fuze. In the forward compartment of the missile, a semi-active homing radar head (9E50, Russian: 9Э50, 9Э50М1), autopilot equipment, power source and a warhead is located. The homing method chosen was proportional navigation."

Source: Wikipedia

[Liamski-la]

Also bare in mind that it was possibly being operated by people with little knowledge of how the system actually works.

[Red Beret]

I mean bragging about shooting down a passenger jet. Either way, statements like that are non-conclusive. Anyone could have written that.

Statement seems quite bragging to me.  "Our skies", "no peaceful civillians were injured."

I guess anybody could have issued the denials too.

[JongWK]

The latest count is 71 Dutch, 9 Britons and 23 US American citizens among the passengers.

[Red Beret]

RT said that Putin's plane was about 30 minutes behind the Malaysian aircraft on pretty much the same flight path...................

Ah, so the perfect motive for Ukraine to use SAMs where otherwise it would be utterly pointless surfaces.... and gives Russia an excuse to assert authority via national security issues...?

[gazzalfc]

Current flight paths across Europe

[Macphisto80]

Statement seems quite bragging to me.  "Our skies", "no peaceful civillians were injured."

I guess anybody could have issued the denials too.

I'd say everyone on that plane was peaceful.

[Mamadou]

yep... someone should stop that pig-face

RIP

[Malaysian Kopite]

Pentagon confirming via @CNN crashed #MH17 Malaysian Airlines jet WAS shot by a missile originating from #Russia.
Hayes Brown ‏@HayesBrown 7m

! RT @Galrahn: 20 minutes ago my Pentagon source suggested missile originated from Russian territory. I think that may become official soon.

[Hazell]

Horrible news. RIP to everyone on board.

[planet-terror]

Dreadful news. Rip.

[lionel_messias]

Pentagon confirming via @CNN crashed #MH17 Malaysian Airlines jet WAS shot by a missile originating from #Russia.
Hayes Brown ‏@HayesBrown 7m

! RT @Galrahn: 20 minutes ago my Pentagon source suggested missile originated from Russian territory. I think that may become official soon.

CNN or people claiming Pentagon sources on twitter?

I'll waits on that.

In the meantime, RIP and terrible tragedy for the poor victims and families, deplorable.

[Crosby Nick]

What a fucked up world we live in. RIP.