Topic: Astroworld Tragedy

[B0151?]

He stopped the performance a couple of times with concern for what it's worth

Trying to blame the performer for something like this is really stupid

If there's a situation where people are dying then it shouldn't be on the performer to stop the show like he has full awareness of the situation. That decision shouldn't be in his hands. I'm sure if someone said people are dying you have to stop the show, of course he does it.

I'm very wary of scapegoats in situations like this. Everyone trying to cover their own arse. One of the first thing the police chief did was spread a scare story about the crowd. What's important is the failings are addressed and made responsible so the victims get their justice and things are changed so something like this doesn't happen again

[Alan_X]

I should have made clear that I meant there's a section of his fans who seem 'hardcore' and their behaviour at this and other festivals makes them utter wankers. The ones who get whipped up into a frenzy by the divvy on stage, and have no consideration for the welfare of others.

That may be true but I'm not sure if it's relevant. The organisers should have done a crowd profile and put measures in place to deal with it. And without more information it's speculation but I wouldn't have thought a few wankers would have created the crush.

[Mumm-Ra]

He stopped the performance a couple of times with concern for what it's worth

Trying to blame the performer for something like this is really stupid

If there's a situation where people are dying then it shouldn't be on the performer to stop the show like he has full awareness of the situation. That decision shouldn't be in his hands. I'm sure if someone said people are dying you have to stop the show, of course he does it.

I'm very wary of scapegoats in situations like this. Everyone trying to cover their own arse. One of the first thing the police chief did was spread a scare story about the crowd. What's important is the failings are addressed and made responsible so the victims get their justice and things are changed so something like this doesn't happen again

Good post. I think he shoulders a lot of blame because of his general irresponsible attitude, but you're spot on about the scapegoating.

[hide5seek]

He stopped the performance a couple of times with concern for what it's worth

Trying to blame the performer for something like this is really stupid

If there's a situation where people are dying then it shouldn't be on the performer to stop the show like he has full awareness of the situation. That decision shouldn't be in his hands. I'm sure if someone said people are dying you have to stop the show, of course he does it.

I'm very wary of scapegoats in situations like this. Everyone trying to cover their own arse. One of the first thing the police chief did was spread a scare story about the crowd. What's important is the failings are addressed and made responsible so the victims get their justice and things are changed so something like this doesn't happen again

https://www.insider.com/travis-scott-astroworld-pleas-to-stop-festival-ignored-eyewitnesses-2021-11

[FlashGordon]

He sounds like a right piece of shit. His music is fucking gash. He's got a hardcore of fans who are utter wankers.

Should be banned from every performing live again. But that shouldn't exonerate Live Nation, who are grabbing shysters.

It really isn't.

[rodderzzz]

It already looks like authorities are pulling the same stunts that they did at Hillsborough, trying to blame an unruly crowd (currently doing toxicology reports on the dead for drugs), blaming bad behaviour without much evidence of it so far (I know the claim about the security guard getting spiked, but that doesn't cause a crush, it's trying to paint a picture).

All the videos on twitter from when Scott came on stage showed fans well behaved, filming on their phones, fairly decent spacing at that point, and then minutes later same area no phones and people clearly struggling.

Houston PD now confirmed that the security guard that was injected was a false story and that he was actually punched.

[Macphisto80]

It really isn't.

Dunno. Sounds like shit to my ears.

[Persephone]

He stopped the performance a couple of times with concern for what it's worth

Trying to blame the performer for something like this is really stupid

If there's a situation where people are dying then it shouldn't be on the performer to stop the show like he has full awareness of the situation. That decision shouldn't be in his hands. I'm sure if someone said people are dying you have to stop the show, of course he does it.

I'm very wary of scapegoats in situations like this. Everyone trying to cover their own arse. One of the first thing the police chief did was spread a scare story about the crowd. What's important is the failings are addressed and made responsible so the victims get their justice and things are changed so something like this doesn't happen again

Nah sorry I think he shoulders some of the blame, people were screaming at him that there were people dying in the crowd. He could see ambulances and chose to do nothing. Him and Kylie Jenner should save their false tears cause no one believes them. There have been a few videos circulating of other performers stopping their concerts for far less after finding out their audience was in danger.

[CowboyKangaroo]

Dunno. Sounds like shit to my ears.

"You are old, Father William" the young man said

[Buggy Eyes Alfredo]

"We already know, and we can't do anything to stop the show. They're streaming."

Fuck that cameraman and fuck Travis Scott.     

 

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Speaking at a news conference, Chief Finner said organisers were told by police to end the event on Friday night when one person in the crowd was being given cardiopulmonary resuscitation.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-59218539

[clinical]

It really isn't.

Agreed it's much much worse than gash. Autotune turbo gash as the Everton fans would say

[Alan_X]

I've just started listening to this. Phil Scraton on Trish Wood Is Critical, an American podcast talking about Astroworld.

https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/phil-scraton-on-the-tragedy-of-astroworld/id1513237951?i=1000541288225

[WhereAngelsPlay]

I should have made clear that I meant there's a section of his fans who seem 'hardcore' and their behaviour at this and other festivals makes them utter wankers. The ones who get whipped up into a frenzy by the divvy on stage, and have no consideration for the welfare of others.

Like every gig and festival since almost forever.Blaming the fans is out of fucking order,especially when it's a Red on a Liverpool forum doing it.

Have you been to any live shows ?

[rodderzzz]

Like every gig and festival since almost forever.Blaming the fans is out of fucking order,especially when it's a Red on a Liverpool forum doing it.

Have you been to any live shows ?

It's honestly staggering some of the responses on here.

[the 92A]

Important people don't go jumping to conclusions, we know better than anyone to not just listen to narratives that blame fans for crushes, crowd control and organisation must be examined in depth first

[hide5seek]

I've just started listening to this. Phil Scraton on Trish Wood Is Critical, an American podcast talking about Astroworld.

https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/phil-scraton-on-the-tragedy-of-astroworld/id1513237951?i=1000541288225

Cheers. Listened to it this morning (got up early). It's really worth a listen. Scraton is amazing to listen to.

[RainbowFlick]

In the past day we have learnt:

1. Police Officers were casually enjoying the performance and filming it *AFTER* the emergency was announced on the radio (when Drake came out). Radio recordings show that they were aware from pretty early that there was a real risk of a catastrophe.
2. The injection story was untrue - again another example of a police sharing an urban myth to create a boogeyman.
3. Firefighters that attended were not given radios which is the norm at an event this size. Instead they were given a set of phone numbers to call. There is usually either no or very poor mobile reception in most congregated areas like this.
4. Venue staff (the stewards) were casually employed with no training and have admitted being grossly underprepared for the job, let alone an event like this.
5. The stage design compared to 2019 (which also had injuries - but most large scale events do, which isn't excusable, but it's a fact) changed. There was an extra barricade added seemingly as part of the Apple streaming of this (further milking of ĢĢĢ). This added to the pressure and compaction of people in the left hand side pit where the bulk of fatalities and injuries were.
6. The event plan did not include anything re. crowd surges or similar.
7. The head of security and risk management was not licensed with the state

[RainbowFlick]

Nah sorry I think he shoulders some of the blame, people were screaming at him that there were people dying in the crowd. He could see ambulances and chose to do nothing. Him and Kylie Jenner should save their false tears cause no one believes them. There have been a few videos circulating of other performers stopping their concerts for far less after finding out their audience was in danger.

as a fan I can admit he should shoulder some blame for exacerbating things (telling people to jump gates, mainly), but:

1. it is very normal for people to be passing out/injured at festivals and shows. crowd compaction of some form is pretty normal now and a lot of that is down to a culture of people wanting to squeeze to the front for the 'best' experience not realising it causes issues for others. this has been compounded by the fact that promoters have just let it slide for years, pack more people in and cut corners from stage design to hiring people. the normalisation of this is what leads to recklessness - artists assume it's manageable now by those that are hired (security, medics etc). the event should've just been stopped by the police or the named Live Nation individuals who have the 'power' to do so - and that probably should've been a lot earlier.
2. that 'ambulance' from accounts of those there was a security vehicle and again is pretty normal in a US festival in my experience for that to be deployed into a crowd. shitty behaviour jumping on it no doubt though.
3. he stopped the show a few times in fairness - and i've been to shows of his in the past where he's stopped for injuries etc too. again, not excusing that he might exacerbate things, but you see people pass out from compaction at other gigs too, even with more 'calm' music.

i know people hate the kardashians/jenners and i'm no fan myself. i don't believe travis is quite as heartless as some are demonising him to be. his apology video was awkward but no doubt his lawyers are in his ears telling him not to say certain things.

[Alan_X]

Nah sorry I think he shoulders some of the blame, people were screaming at him that there were people dying in the crowd. He could see ambulances and chose to do nothing. Him and Kylie Jenner should save their false tears cause no one believes them. There have been a few videos circulating of other performers stopping their concerts for far less after finding out their audience was in danger.

Sorry but if it was up to the performer to make that decision it means there was a catastrophic failure by the security and safety team. In the podcast I linked to, Phil Scraton refers to the Roskilde disaster 21 years ago where 9 people died at a Pearl Jam gig. The investigation concluded it was accidental but there were a range of recommendation that have been put in place:

...Prior to this, there had not been major incidents at Roskilde and it was generally considered a very safe festival. Following a detailed review, several new measures were implemented such as a larger safety area with extra emergency exits in front of the stage, more "hard" and "soft" systems to control the number of people allowed into each concert, more spacing and clear separation between audience sections with separate entrances/exits, an expanded video surveillance system making it easier to detect potential problems early, more guards among the audience, an emergency system where the safety staff can shut down the entire concert at the push of a single button, and the chain-of-command was strengthened. Each year, the Roskilde Festival performs a new safety review. A safety network of European festivals and concerts, along with experts, was started (the "YES Group") and many of the measures introduced in Roskilde have later been added elsewhere...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roskilde_Festival

At Roskilde nine people were dead within five minutes of slipping over. It's likely that by the time peple were calling out for the show to be stopped at Astroworld, the fatalities had already occured. 

In my job we carry out design risk assessments and in my training as an industrial designer we were taught that good safety design doesn't rely on the good behaviour of users. The behaviour of the performer and his fans wasn't a surprise and the safety plan should have taken that into account. 

Unless there are some unique circumstances we don't know about, the first port of call has to be the organisers and whoever drew up the security and safety plan.

Edit - and if there are videos of performers having to stop performances, that's not a good sign. It means the safety staff weren't doing their jobs.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

In the past day we have learnt:

1. Police Officers were casually enjoying the performance and filming it *AFTER* the emergency was announced on the radio (when Drake came out). Radio recordings show that they were aware from pretty early that there was a real risk of a catastrophe.
2. The injection story was untrue - again another example of a police sharing an urban myth to create a boogeyman.
3. Firefighters that attended were not given radios which is the norm at an event this size. Instead they were given a set of phone numbers to call. There is usually either no or very poor mobile reception in most congregated areas like this.
4. Venue staff (the stewards) were casually employed with no training and have admitted being grossly underprepared for the job, let alone an event like this.
5. The stage design compared to 2019 (which also had injuries - but most large scale events do, which isn't excusable, but it's a fact) changed. There was an extra barricade added seemingly as part of the Apple streaming of this (further milking of ĢĢĢ). This added to the pressure and compaction of people in the left hand side pit where the bulk of fatalities and injuries were.
6. The event plan did not include anything re. crowd surges or similar.

Twats on both sides of the pond never learn.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Edit - and if there are videos of performers having to stop performances, that's not a good sign. It means the safety staff weren't doing their jobs.

This is true.

I'm trained a festival steward, included in that training is the following: if you can only see the heads and shoulders of those in front of you then there is overcrowding.

[RainbowFlick]

This is true.

I'm trained a festival steward, included in that training is the following: if you can only see the heads and shoulders of those in front of you then there is overcrowding.

this should be the standard but overcrowding has become the norm whilst promoters milk every last Ģ or $ from events. in hindsight with all the festivals and concerts i've been to which have been dangerously close to something like this, it now feels it was inevitable. i hope tighter regulations are brought in and that includes in the UK where i've experienced similar too. overcrowding, stage design and traffic management all need to be reconsidered, on top of the training of staff hired and safety protocols.

[Persephone]

Sorry but if it was up to the performer to make that decision it means there was a catastrophic failure by the security and safety team. In the podcast I linked to, Phil Scraton refers to the Roskilde disaster 21 years ago where 9 people died at a Pearl Jam gig. The investigation concluded it was accidental but there were a range of recommendation that have been put in place:

...Prior to this, there had not been major incidents at Roskilde and it was generally considered a very safe festival. Following a detailed review, several new measures were implemented such as a larger safety area with extra emergency exits in front of the stage, more "hard" and "soft" systems to control the number of people allowed into each concert, more spacing and clear separation between audience sections with separate entrances/exits, an expanded video surveillance system making it easier to detect potential problems early, more guards among the audience, an emergency system where the safety staff can shut down the entire concert at the push of a single button, and the chain-of-command was strengthened. Each year, the Roskilde Festival performs a new safety review. A safety network of European festivals and concerts, along with experts, was started (the "YES Group") and many of the measures introduced in Roskilde have later been added elsewhere...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roskilde_Festival

At Roskilde nine people were dead within five minutes of slipping over. It's likely that by the time peple were calling out for the show to be stopped at Astroworld, the fatalities had already occured. 

In my job we carry out design risk assessments and in my training as an industrial designer we were taught that good safety design doesn't rely on the good behaviour of users. The behaviour of the performer and his fans wasn't a surprise and the safety plan should have taken that into account. 

Unless there are some unique circumstances we don't know about, the first port of call has to be the organisers and whoever drew up the security and safety plan.

Edit - and if there are videos of performers having to stop performances, that's not a good sign. It means the safety staff weren't doing their jobs.

I agree with everything you're saying except for the fact that he could have stopped the concert but chose not to. AFTER hearing that people were injured, he was the main man in the spotlight and IF he had stopped it perhaps some lives could have been saved. By stopping the concert the lights would have come on and that certainly made rescue efforts easier. It doesn't matter at that point that the organisation failed the concert goers, he could have helped but didn't. That is on him.

It is most certainly the fault of the organisers, they were ill prepared and equipped to deal with the crowd and the situation. People lost their lives and of course the narrative is already being spun that it's the fans fault etc, which we've all experienced with Hillsborough.

It's depressing that this still happens and I hope there will be done justice for the families of those who died and the injured.

[Alan_X]

I agree with everything you're saying except for the fact that he could have stopped the concert but chose not to. AFTER hearing that people were injured, he was the main man in the spotlight and IF he had stopped it perhaps some lives could have been saved. By stopping the concert the lights would have come on and that certainly made rescue efforts easier. It doesn't matter at that point that the organisation failed the concert goers, he could have helped but didn't. That is on him.

It is most certainly the fault of the organisers, they were ill prepared and equipped to deal with the crowd and the situation. People lost their lives and of course the narrative is already being spun that it's the fans fault etc, which we've all experienced with Hillsborough.

It's depressing that this still happens and I hope there will be done justice for the families of those who died and the injured.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

[RainbowFlick]

I agree with everything you're saying except for the fact that he could have stopped the concert but chose not to. AFTER hearing that people were injured, he was the main man in the spotlight and IF he had stopped it perhaps some lives could have been saved. By stopping the concert the lights would have come on and that certainly made rescue efforts easier. It doesn't matter at that point that the organisation failed the concert goers, he could have helped but didn't. That is on him.

It is most certainly the fault of the organisers, they were ill prepared and equipped to deal with the crowd and the situation. People lost their lives and of course the narrative is already being spun that it's the fans fault etc, which we've all experienced with Hillsborough.

It's depressing that this still happens and I hope there will be done justice for the families of those who died and the injured.

respectfully it sounds like you're unaware how often people faint or get injured at a concert. if you watch the live stream he stops the show three times to get attention for people and questions why the ambulance is there.

it doesn't appear that he's getting given clear information on the gravity of the situation but we'll find out more as part of an inquest. i don't think he's an animal or as malicious as people are making him out to be, reckless, yes, but if someone told him it was serious he would stop the show and ask people to step back etc.

he is reckless and done some nasty things but he's been demonised to be the *only* fall guy here which is inaccurate. there is systemic failings all over the place and warning signals from way before he'd even touched the stage.

[RainbowFlick]

if you use reddit, www.reddit.com/r/travisscott is providing updated coverage of the situation and discussion between fans and non-fans alike.

[scatman]

Sadly looks like another person just died in hospital from their injuries.

[John C]

I've just started listening to this. Phil Scraton on Trish Wood Is Critical, an American podcast talking about Astroworld.

https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/phil-scraton-on-the-tragedy-of-astroworld/id1513237951?i=1000541288225

Listened to it the morning Alan, there's some tough moments early on. Superb, thanks for posting it.

[Alan_X]

It's interesting that the 'deadly surge' and 'crowd stampede' narrative is fairly widespread now.

[scatman]

Looks like a young lad aged 9 has died from his injuries now too. Hearing what his father said, he must be devastated and blame himself. So sad

[Machae]

9 year old, thats awful.

I don't know much about Travis Scott, but I see a lot of young people attended the event, is his music and festival age appropriate?

[RainbowFlick]

9 year old, thats awful.

I don't know much about Travis Scott, but I see a lot of young people attended the event, is his music and festival age appropriate?

his music is a bit dark but let's be honest, i was listening to 'inappropriate' rap music when i was like 6 years old too. the likes of fortnite and mcdonald's have marketed with travis too which has expanded the fanbase to younger kids. the festival has fairground rides etc too so it's a pretty fun experience.

the organisers shouldn't have let it be an 'all age' event, for definite, but no blame on the parents, they were letting Ezra go to see his favourite artist. You see kids his age at quite a lot of festivals.

[RainbowFlick]

Was another mainly rap festival in Vegas this weekend. They cut a performance short and the suggestion is was the artist was asking people to get hyped or 'rage'.

https://twitter.com/JusAire/status/1460095318276542468?s=20

This is not a solution. You can 'rage' or moshpit responsibly if the venue is appropriate, not overcrowded and there's good safety protocols in place. that said the automated messages telling people to 'step back' should be a welcome measure at ALL concerts because some people at the back don't realise how busy it is at the front.

feels a bit like how standing was stopped after Hillsborough. it's not really a solution - it's just a reaction. i hope this doesn't get accepted as the norm and there's a focus on the organisers.

[RainbowFlick]

It's interesting that the 'deadly surge' and 'crowd stampede' narrative is fairly widespread now.

Yup. The narrative seems to be pushed that it's down to lawlessness of the fans when in reality in a crowd surge you have no ability to stop yourself stomping on people that may have fallen. it's just too packed.

people seem to believe people were freely 'dancing' on dead bodies. wish people would take time to actually understand the situation.

[RainbowFlick]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6GlWCgYcBw

a lot of attendees didn't have their tickets scanned (on top of those that jumped the gates - they suggest 5,000 extra people which is unverifiable at this stage so i would err on the side of not believing it was as big as that. if it was as big as that, the event should've been stopped sooner.

the district judge tried to push through an independent investigation and that was brushed aside because they say it would bring the county possibly under liability. how is that a satisfactory reason? smells very cover-up-ish

[John C]

Anyone who listens to the Daily Beans will be familiar with Andrew Torezz, he's a superb legal analyst.
In his podcast this week his colleague intelligently explores the comparisons with Hillsborough on several occasions.
It's also a really good listen anyway.
https://openargs.com/

[John C]

There's been at least 2 really good podcasts posted in this thread, one including Phil Scraton, that discuss the tragedy sensitively and sympathetically towards those who died.

It's shameful that an article like the one deleted should be posted on this site.

[Indomitable_Carp]

Iīve been surprised at a few of the comments on here to be honest.

And yes the Phil Scraton podcast was good. Lays it out in very clear terms that canīt really be argued with.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Sorry about the insult but my blood was boiling 1 because of the post and 2 after clicking the link and clicking the about us tab.