Topic: Merseyrail - now with added 777

[Red Beret]

I did a bit of a check and there doesn't seem to be any relevant or pertinent topics floating around on RAWK worth resurrecting, so I thought I'd start a new one.  After the Kirkby crash incident there were a few questions on the future direction of Merseyrail so I figured setting this up would be a good idea.

I think the most pertinent news currently, aside from what happened in Kirkby, is the development of the proposed St James Place station by the Baltic.  I understand Network Rail gave the network £1.5m for further studies, and that Merseyrail itself has bought land around the area for £100k for the potential building of street level facilities.

The original station was closed in 1917, and anyone who's been on the Hunts Cross leg of the Northern Line has probably seen the remains of the old platforms. If and when construction starts, even though the platforms would probably extend part way into the tunnel, it's thought it won't be necessary to treat it as an "underground" station, with the additional requirements expected for such a construction. (As an example of the difference, Conway Park was supposed to be a "cut and cover" station, but the building supposed to be constructed over the station was cancelled.)

There's no timetable on the station being built, but it seems certain to happen, with all the new apartments being built in the area, and the Baltic Market getting into full swing.  Knowing how glacial these projects proceed, I'd say it's unlikely to be open before 2025, but maybe I'm wrong. I'd have to dig into the Maghull North project for a better idea.

[John_P]

Really do hope that happens, been on the trains a few times when it's had to stop before going into the tunnels so spent plenty of time thinking of the benefits of reopening it.

Merseyrail should really be looking at expanding the network as much as they can though. The fact they went 20 years between opening a properly new station (South parkway just replaced Garston) is mad when you look at how something like the trams in Manchester in the same period.

[Red Beret]

Really do hope that happens, been on the trains a few times when it's had to stop before going into the tunnels so spent plenty of time thinking of the benefits of reopening it.

Merseyrail should really be looking at expanding the network as much as they can though. The fact they went 20 years between opening a properly new station (South parkway just replaced Garston) is mad when you look at how something like the trams in Manchester in the same period.

South Parkway is mad.  From what I read up, it was at least 30 years too late, and built in the wrong place.  Its platforms are too short and can't be extended because of the bridge, so when the London trains had to stop there a couple of years back, the fore and aft sections of the trains couldn't be used.

[swoopy]

South Parkway is mad.  From what I read up, it was at least 30 years too late, and built in the wrong place.  Its platforms are too short and can't be extended because of the bridge, so when the London trains had to stop there a couple of years back, the fore and aft sections of the trains couldn't be used.

It really should be better linked to the airport as well.

[redbyrdz]

It really should be better linked to the airport as well.

Yep, calling it "airport link" and expecting you to change to (and pay for) a normal local bus to actually get to the airport is a bit strange! And walking to the airport from there would probably take you about half an hour at least, and its not even sign posted.



Pretty sure I had a moan about that before, but the platform design is also not great - there is just one small stairset to get off the platform, which easily gets crowded. I always think that as a city, we should really know about the dangers of tight single access points 

[AlphaDelta]

Have they said yet why the train crashed in Kirkby? driver error, brake failure, signalling issues?

A lot of people in work use Merseyrail and they are constantly moaning how poor it is, trains cancelled or late, overcrowding etc.

[AndyMuller]

Have they said yet why the train crashed in Kirkby? driver error, brake failure, signalling issues?

A lot of people in work use Merseyrail and they are constantly moaning how poor it is, trains cancelled or late, overcrowding etc.

A few rumours have gone around (I live in Kirkby) that he had a heartache but then I heard the brakes didn't work properly.

I work in town so it has fucked up my commute and I can't be arsed getting a bus!

[Indomitable_Carp]

St. James Place station is a great idea, and long overdue. They should have been working on opening that as soon as it was decided they would try and expand town into the Baltic Triangle. But as with everything else in terms of local planning, there is no cohesion or forethought.

As it stands you either have to hop off at Central or Brunswick if you are hoping to head to the Baltic Triangle from the Northern Line, both of which are very decent walks.

Yep, calling it "airport link" and expecting you to change to (and pay for) a normal local bus to actually get to the airport is a bit strange! And walking to the airport from there would probably take you about half an hour at least, and its not even sign posted.

Yep calling it an airport link is a proper piss take. Should be free shuttles straight to the airport really, or at least heavily discounted (£1 a go or something)

[Red Beret]

It really should be better linked to the airport as well.

When it comes to a rail link to the airport, they'd be better off driving a new branch line from Cressington south east.  But it's a good 3 kilometres in a straight line and would probably cost 100s of millions.

Have they said yet why the train crashed in Kirkby? driver error, brake failure, signalling issues?

A lot of people in work use Merseyrail and they are constantly moaning how poor it is, trains cancelled or late, overcrowding etc.

Ironically, Merseyrail is routinely considered the best operated rail franchise in the country in terms of cancellations and punctuality, so gawd knows what it's like in the rest of the country!

The new trains will be able to carry a lot more people, but that's just a polite way of saying there's more standing room, as they have the same number of seats apparently. 

[rob1966]

Really do hope that happens, been on the trains a few times when it's had to stop before going into the tunnels so spent plenty of time thinking of the benefits of reopening it.

Merseyrail should really be looking at expanding the network as much as they can though. The fact they went 20 years between opening a properly new station (South parkway just replaced Garston) is mad when you look at how something like the trams in Manchester in the same period.

Metrolink has done so much over the past 20 years, even got a proper link to Manchester airport which opened about 5 or 6 years ago I think amd has recently added a new line from Cornbrook near the Quays out to the Trafford Centre.

I had 3 years of my commute being disrupted by the works and then Covid hit just before they opened the line, so the Trams are running but nearly always empty.

[So… Howard Philips]

South Parkway is mad.  From what I read up, it was at least 30 years too late, and built in the wrong place.  Its platforms are too short and can't be extended because of the bridge, so when the London trains had to stop there a couple of years back, the fore and aft sections of the trains couldn't be used.

For me South Parkway will always be Allerton station for me. Jumping the train to Runcorn for Saturday nights at the Scala, getting the train into town during the bus strike in 1967 (buying a ticket to West Allerton and getting off at Edge Hill - ooer Missus) and spending one freezing Boxing Night in the waiting room when we couldn't find a party that'd let us in.

Anyway thread diversion over.

When can we see the new trains on Merseyrail?

[Red Beret]

On the new trains, honestly no idea. Some were delivered in 2020, and they've been doing bedding in runs on the network. I've seen them at Kirkdale. I think they were supposed to start this year, but I think Covid has pushed everything back.

[gazzalfc]

On the new trains, honestly no idea. Some were delivered in 2020, and they've been doing bedding in runs on the network. I've seen them at Kirkdale. I think they were supposed to start this year, but I think Covid has pushed everything back.

The trains are here. They are working.

Only problem is Merseyrail still hasn't got a deal with the drivers union to get them to drive them. The training needed to drive the new trains hasn't even begun.

https://www.thebusinessdesk.com/northwest/news/2066824-further-delays-likely-to-introduction-of-new-merseyrail-train-fleet

The guards deal was finally sorted last year. But that deal is tied to the drivers union sorting their deal and training. So we're still a long way from seeing these trains actually take paying customers.

They seem to be making the London style 'oyster' card their priority in 2021

[gazzalfc]

Ironically, Merseyrail is routinely considered the best operated rail franchise in the country in terms of cancellations and punctuality, so gawd knows what it's like in the rest of the country!

The new trains will be able to carry a lot more people, but that's just a polite way of saying there's more standing room, as they have the same number of seats apparently. 

Does help when your train lines operate on their own exclusive line with no major overlap with any other operator.

Also helps you they can maximise their punctuality numbers by running 'semi-fast' trains that skip stations to make sure their next trains run to time.

[Red Beret]

The trains are here. They are working.

Only problem is Merseyrail still hasn't got a deal with the drivers union to get them to drive them. The training needed to drive the new trains hasn't even begun.

https://www.thebusinessdesk.com/northwest/news/2066824-further-delays-likely-to-introduction-of-new-merseyrail-train-fleet

The guards deal was finally sorted last year. But that deal is tied to the drivers union sorting their deal and training. So we're still a long way from seeing these trains actually take paying customers.

They seem to be making the London style 'oyster' card their priority in 2021

That's interesting, I didn't know that.  Thanks for sharing.  I knew some trains had been delivered last year, but by no means all.  All the blurb I've seen on their webpage says the trains were due to start running this year, so I'd assumed Covid had kaiboshed the rollout.  Guess I was wrong!

Does help when your train lines operate on their own exclusive line with no major overlap with any other operator.

Also helps you they can maximise their punctuality numbers by running 'semi-fast' trains that skip stations to make sure their next trains run to time.

It's true, they're not above massaging the figures when it comes to trains running late; I've heard several stories about how they will change a terminus station on the train so it can be put down as "on time".

That said, I'm not sorry that the service is self contained, because it has a degree of autonomy that other parts of the network just don't have.  It's about the closest thing you can get to a nationalised system, given that they do everything in-house.

[CornerFlag]

If anyone's genuinely interested, there was a good-size study on the future of the network published last year:

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Liverpool-City-Region-Strategic-Rail-Study-2020.pdf


This one mentions that St. James' station is likely to be re-opened in 2023.  Headbolt Lane could be open around the same time.

https://moderngov.merseytravel.gov.uk/documents/s42948/Long%20Term%20Rail%20Strategy%20Update.pdf


In a complete fantasyland for me, but I always envisioned the rebuilding of Birkenhead Woodside, with underground links to Hamilton Square station.  Before they were expanding Lime Street slightly I thought it would be a perfect place to have a station plus a hotel/office tower.  Views over the Mersey to the Liverpool riverside, links to the wider train network as well as the buses and ferries just outside, capacity relieved at Lime Street and Birkenhead gets a terminus which could bring vital revenue to the area, especially the ferries.  But that's me.

[Red Beret]

^^^ thanks for that. Was thinking about St James Place again today walking into town.  I'd actually be surprised if work began inside the next 18 months, mostly because this sort of thing just seems to take ages.  I would have thought 2025 would have been a more realistic date, but I guess we'll see.

Is there a tunnel underneath Woodside already?  It can cost millions just to lay a few miles of track these days, so I doubt extending the tunnel would be on the cards.

[CornerFlag]

No tunnel, I'm more thinking a mainline station above ground with pedestrian links to the underground at Hamilton Square, it's only in the region of 200 metres.  The infrastructure is there for there to be a station where the old one is (tunnel, station's retaining wall), and the line is still there linking to the existing network, I wonder if you would have to extend slightly into the Mersey for the longer trains though.  And you'd have to rehouse the government businesses there, albeit temporarily if you could use above the station as office space.

I've thought about this far too often!

[Red Beret]

No tunnel, I'm more thinking a mainline station above ground with pedestrian links to the underground at Hamilton Square, it's only in the region of 200 metres.  The infrastructure is there for there to be a station where the old one is (tunnel, station's retaining wall), and the line is still there linking to the existing network, I wonder if you would have to extend slightly into the Mersey for the longer trains though.  And you'd have to rehouse the government businesses there, albeit temporarily if you could use above the station as office space.

I've thought about this far too often!

Just read up on it now mate, fascinating stuff!  Disgusting that the station was demolished at all - it was listed ffs.

But as for rebuilding it, I don't see any kind of case for it, as services are dealt with via Hamilton Square.  The pedestrian tunnels can still be brought into use, so maybe there would be potential for a bus/tram interchange on the old site in the future, but at the moment I doubt there's a business case to be made for it. Would make a nice spot for a hotel though.

[gazzalfc]

Biggest danger over the next 10 years is Liverpool Central

Just in terms of footfall it is busier than Lime Street and the 9th busiest station in the country (outside London) . Granted most of that will be Grand National weekend. But those platforms are too small to cope with demand

[rob1966]

Biggest danger over the next 10 years is Liverpool Central

Just in terms of footfall it is busier than Lime Street and the 9th busiest station in the country (outside London) . Granted most of that will be Grand National weekend. But those platforms are too small to cope with demand

Used to hate Central at Christmas when I was a kid, always rammed solid and never get a seat. If we'd just missed the Kirkby train we'd get one out to St Michaels and then get the Kirkby one to get a seat.

[Red Beret]

Biggest danger over the next 10 years is Liverpool Central

Just in terms of footfall it is busier than Lime Street and the 9th busiest station in the country (outside London) . Granted most of that will be Grand National weekend. But those platforms are too small to cope with demand

The overhaul was supposed to deal with all of this, but I never saw how.  And there's no room to expand the station either.

The only solution is bigger, more frequent trains at peak hours, but is that economical?

[AndyMuller]

Trains are back on in Kirkby starting from today. Rumour is that the Wigan/Manchester line will be closed forever.

[Thepooloflife]

Biggest danger over the next 10 years is Liverpool Central

Just in terms of footfall it is busier than Lime Street and the 9th busiest station in the country (outside London) . Granted most of that will be Grand National weekend. But those platforms are too small to cope with demand

Yeah, that Merseytravel document posted by Corner Flag above seems to place great emphasis on the need to make big improvements at Central and as being key in the strategic and economic development of the network and the city region. Says it's the third busiest station in the North, behind Manchester Piccadilly and Leeds and isn't even a direct main inter-city station !

[Red Beret]

Yeah, that Merseytravel document posted by Corner Flag above seems to place great emphasis on the need to make big improvements at Central and as being key in the strategic and economic development of the network and the city region. Says it's the third busiest station in the North, behind Manchester Piccadilly and Leeds and isn't even a direct main inter-city station !

What's the solution though?  Central Station is the rail equivalent of Goodison Park.  You can do it up, but you can't expand it because its landlocked. If it were London, they'd bore a new tunnel and put in additional platforms, but we're not London. That kind of project would make Merseytram look like peanuts.

[FlashingBlade]

What's the solution though?  Central Station is the rail equivalent of Goodison Park.  You can do it up, but you can't expand it because its landlocked. If it were London, they'd bore a new tunnel and put in additional platforms, but we're not London. That kind of project would make Merseytram look like peanuts.

There was talk once if a new underground station at top end of Lord st near LOne....to take strain off central and James St...but guess that's a none starter these days

[Thepooloflife]

What's the solution though?  Central Station is the rail equivalent of Goodison Park.  You can do it up, but you can't expand it because its landlocked. If it were London, they'd bore a new tunnel and put in additional platforms, but we're not London. That kind of project would make Merseytram look like peanuts.

No, I agree - I don't know what the solution is at Central. Those reports only suggest that the problem is recognised and that 'Work is currently underway to understand what interventions may be required' - to alleviate the overcrowding there. They do suggest things like wider platforms and improved escalator provision - but, that's not exactly going to be a longer term solution to the forecast growth in numbers using the station. Also mentions the new trains would have bigger capacity, but as mentioned already, most of that extra capacity will be standing - so not ideal.

[redbyrdz]

What's the solution though?  Central Station is the rail equivalent of Goodison Park.  You can do it up, but you can't expand it because its landlocked. If it were London, they'd bore a new tunnel and put in additional platforms, but we're not London. That kind of project would make Merseytram look like peanuts.

Isn't there more space behind it, wasn't there a goods station once? Or am I making that up?

They could probably rethink the whole loop line idea, without it you could half the number of passengers.

[Thepooloflife]

Isn't there more space behind it, wasn't there a goods station once? Or am I making that up?

They could probably rethink the whole loop line idea, without it you could half the number of passengers.

Yes, but it was actually a passenger line station, known as L'pool Central High-Level and was originally part of Cheshire Lines but after nationalisation became part of LMR. I remember as a kid in the early '60's going to Manchester with my mum from Central. Services stopped in 1966, although I think there was a service to Gateacre up to the early '70's from there, but it was finally demolished in early '70's to allow building work for the 'Loop' line.

I think there were plans to build a retail complex on the demolition site which never materialised, but afaik, it is a Network rail maintenance depot now. Not sure if there would be any scope in utilising this space for increased capacity for the low-level station below......although, I dare say there may be space to disperse people away from the station.
Managed to find a photo of the high-level station from 1965 -

[Red Beret]

Central Village, a construction on the site of the old above ground station, is still a possibility in some form.  the reconstruction of the old Lewis's building and the construction of the big car park was part of it.

there's little flexibility for expanding Central low level itself though, and there's no practical means of addiing an additional station to the line between Central and Moorfields, certainly not on the Northern Line, where most of the passenger issues are.

It's a bottle neck.  The only real solution is to somehow expand capacity at Central, or just encourage people to walk from Moorfields.  Even if they restore the station at St James Place, it's too far out of the city centre to help.

[redbyrdz]

Yes, but it was actually a passenger line station, known as L'pool Central High-Level and was originally part of Cheshire Lines but after nationalisation became part of LMR. I remember as a kid in the early '60's going to Manchester with my mum from Central. Services stopped in 1966, although I think there was a service to Gateacre up to the early '70's from there, but it was finally demolished in early '70's to allow building work for the 'Loop' line.

I think there were plans to build a retail complex on the demolition site which never materialised, but afaik, it is a Network rail maintenance depot now. Not sure if there would be any scope in utilising this space for increased capacity for the low-level station below......although, I dare say there may be space to disperse people away from the station.
Managed to find a photo of the high-level station from 1965 -

Thanks! Glad I didn't imagine it

It's a shame it's gone, would save so many walks between Central and Lime Street! Wouldn't help with passenger numbers though, being able to change to go somewhere else again would only increase them.

[CornerFlag]

There's scope for a few new stations in the city centre, but not many.  I know there's St. James likely to start, but after that you're re-directing a lot of stuff.  One that should be easy (relatively speaking) is one up by the universities, but you wonder what demand there would be given it's so close to Lime Street itself, but there's another tunnel you can incorporate.  The M&S/Echo arena could be fairly well-served by one down the line too by using the old Wapping tunnel but probably not much scope/demand for what would essentially be an Edge Hill shuttle.  The Wapping could easily be connected to Central though, think the connections are there.

I'm a massive gimp for the history of the old railways and stations around here!  Blame http://disused-stations.org.uk/sites.shtml for most of it.

[redbyrdz]

Think a station by the universities would be great, lots of people doing the 10 min walk up from town every day. Not sure if there is space for station facilities or even a platform though.


The obvious answer to lots of Liverpool's transport problems is trams, but unfortunately looks like that boat has sailed.

[rob1966]

Think a station by the universities would be great, lots of people doing the 10 min walk up from town every day. Not sure if there is space for station facilities or even a platform though.


The obvious answer to lots of Liverpool's transport problems is trams, but unfortunately looks like that boat has sailed.

I was just thinking that. We've got the Metrolink over this side, Liverpool should have gone down that route

[CornerFlag]

Where the bookshop was (I think it's Student Services now) would be a good spot for any station, the building is awful and the couple of businesses there you could incorporate elsewhere in a station build.  If they can fit the platforms in at Conway Park you'd imagine they could do the same there.  Wouldn't need a new building really, just subway access to platforms as the line is right there.

[CraigDS]

I was just thinking that. We've got the Metrolink over this side, Liverpool should have gone down that route

100%.

That metrolink is great. GF's family all live Whitefield way and I've got it into the centre of Manchester a few times now. Means all those suburbs have quick and easy access into the centre without having to drive and they are all better off because of it.

[FlashingBlade]

Merseytravel is a brilliant network linking all key points in Merseyside. It may mot have station on everyone's front door step but it provides great coverage and has for decades.

[FlashingBlade]

The proposal from Trams in Liverpool years back was driven by Neil Scales the Merseyravel boss ....it is a romantic notion..
but in realitu driven by political infighting with LCC and where Objective One money would finance it...thats why the Kirkby route was propsed...the modelling demand didnt stackn up..bearing in mind there is already a fine Mersetravel link to Kirkby.

[rob1966]

The proposal from Trams in Liverpool years back was driven by Neil Scales the Merseyravel boss ....it is a romantic notion..
but in realitu driven by political infighting with LCC and where Objective One money would finance it...thats why the Kirkby route was propsed...the modelling demand didnt stackn up..bearing in mind there is already a fine Mersetravel link to Kirkby.

You'd have to tie it in neatly. Kirkby didn't need it, the trains to town were always great and we had the buses as well.

Where I live now doesn't have a tram route as we've great bus and rail connections to Manchester. However, the areas like Eccles, Ashton, Wythenshawe etc that would benefit have them. So in Liverpool, places like Croxteth, Norris Green, Walton and Anfield, that don't have easy access to the Merseyrail network would benefit

[Red Beret]

You'd have to tie it in neatly. Kirkby didn't need it, the trains to town were always great and we had the buses as well.

Where I live now doesn't have a tram route as we've great bus and rail connections to Manchester. However, the areas like Eccles, Ashton, Wythenshawe etc that would benefit have them. So in Liverpool, places like Croxteth, Norris Green, Walton and Anfield, that don't have easy access to the Merseyrail network would benefit

This is true.  I think the issue in Liverpool is one of capacity.  Kirkby has a good rail link, but if the trains and stations can't handle the footfall then passengers need alternative means of getting into work and back.  And although there's good bus links, roads come with their own problems, especially when the council decides to dig up major arteries like the Strand.

When it came to the Kirkby tram, I think the idea was to just get the system up and running, which would enable expansion further down the line.  So they picked an easy destination that they thought was achievable.  Let's not forget, it was a Labour government that pulled the plug on funding, and we're talking (relatively) trivial amounts of money here.

As a pedestrian, I've often seen the council's transport policy as somewhat schizophrenic. They used bus lanes to encourage public transport take-up, but when drivers didn't take them up they abandoned them rather than play hard ball on motorists.  I don't drive, so there's probably a whole subset of reasons why that's the case, but if you're going to allow cars into the city centre at the same time you are pedestrianising and/or narrowing roads, then the math is simple - more cars + fewer roads = congestion, pollution and poor air quality.

Just as an example: Making the Strand pretty to walk through is great, but it doesn't help solve transport issues.  A mixed use, raised, urban motorway/tram line through the Strand would be expensive, but could be built in sections with minimal disruption to existing traffic (if you can demolish flyovers you can build them too). Plus, there are tons of disused rail lines that could be partially repurposed, either as tramlines, as you say, to link areas of the city with poor connections, or hell turn them into roads for HGVs and buses to ease congestion.