Topic: Norwich City

[bradders1011]

Don't think these have a dedicated thread.

They are simply appalling top to bottom and have a good chance of beating Derby's record this season. Then they'll finish 2nd in the 22/23 Championship and the whole dance starts again.

Great away though, try The Murderers.

[Sarge]

Championship Club end of.

[Statto Red]

Derby got 11 points from 1 win & 8 draws in the whole of 07/08 season, lowest ever points total for a premier league season so far, this season Norwich could well beat it.

[The G in Gerrard]

No different than the side that got relegated?

[Max_powers]

Don't think they are that bad but they will comfortably get relegated.

Think they have some tidy players but are very soft and easy to play against. The midfield has no bite. Hanley and the other centre-backs are all championship standards. Don't think Kabak will improve them much either, not in this setup.

On top of that, they are allergic to scoring.

A good striker and an enforcer in the midfield can solve a lot of their problems though.

[Elzar]

No different than the side that got relegated?

Massively different players wise, brought in 15 players since they got relegated. They look exactly the same though, worryingly.

They still have Grant Hanley somehow though.

[Caligula?]

Stuck in the everlasting pergatory of attracting players that are good enough to get out of the Championship but not good enough for the Premier League.

Will they ever just roll the dice one summer and buy and/or loan players that can keep them up? They're a well run club so it's not as if it'll ruin them financially. Unless or course they're perfect happy the way they are.

[Spanish Al]

I read an article with their sporting director a while back (Stuart Webber?) where he said their aim is to be a ‘top 25 club’. They’re basically fine with being relegated but the following season they should be getting, or at least challenging for, promotion.

[OOS]

I read an article with their sporting director a while back (Stuart Webber?) where he said their aim is to be a ‘top 25 club’. They’re basically fine with being relegated but the following season they should be getting, or at least challenging for, promotion.

One season of getting tonked week in, week out. Next, taking the piss week in, week out... could be worse.

[TepidT2O]

One season of getting tonked week in, week out. Next, taking the piss week in, week out... could be worse.

Atleast they get to win something when they get promoted.


Imagine if they didn’t.

They’d be like Everton.

[Son of Spion]

Atleast they get to win something when they get promoted.


Imagine if they didn’t.

They’d be like Everton.

That's a fair point.

At least they get to feel something other than the endless monotony of treading water that the likes of Everton endure. Sure, getting relegated is no fun, but chasing, then gaining, promotion at least gives a real sense of achievement and gives the fans something to celebrate.

[TepidT2O]

That's a fair point.

At least they get to feel something other than the endless monotony of treading water that the likes of Everton endure. Sure, getting relegated is no fun, but chasing, then gaining, promotion at least gives a real sense of achievement and gives the fans something to celebrate.

I genuinely think relegation would be good for Everton.

They’d start to feel positive about something …..

[Lone Star Red]

Don't mind Norwich, but the endless cycle of coming up and then going straight back down without a fight is boring at this point, much in the same way Fulham have become. They play decent stuff under Farke, especially in the Championship where they aren't punished as much. But they look and play so naďve in the PL, it's shocking.

[disgraced cake]

I thought the exact same thing about Derby's point tally before.

They'll probably get just about more, but if every team played Norwich home or away, on a totally blank slate, without fixture congestion, injuries/covid, international breaks out of the equation, every single side would beat them I think, more often than not anyway. Of course they'll get some points but that's just how the season works out.

[whtwht]

Will they win a game this season?

[rob1966]

Perfect situation for them, come up, pocket over Ł100 million, get relegated so no big wages nor bonuses to pay, season in the championship back up pocketing the millions again and repeat

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

Don't mind Norwich, but the endless cycle of coming up and then going straight back down without a fight is boring at this point, much in the same way Fulham have become. They play decent stuff under Farke, especially in the Championship where they aren't punished as much. But they look and play so naďve in the PL, it's shocking.

It's not really an endless cycle is it? They've come up, gone down and come up in the last 3 seasons, but before that they had 3 seasons in the Championship preceded by 3 seasons in the Premier League.

Likewise with Fulham, they hadn't been in the Premier League for 5 seasons until 18/19, before which they were in the Premier League for 11 seasons.

[rafathegaffa83]

Almost certainly going straight back down. They've had the same problem every single time they come back up, they can't defend for shit

[disgraced cake]

Almost certainly going straight back down. They've had the same problem every single time they come back up, they can't defend for shit

They can't attack though either. They started the 2019/20 season well causing us a few problems on the first day, beating City and a couple of others, then went to shit. They only won 5 last season and this season I'd be surprised if they won more than 3.

[The North Bank]

They’d point to derby and say they’re doing the right thing. All their players have clauses in their contracts about pay cuts after relegation and pay rises after promotion.
Definitely going down though, even lost to Arsenal.

[Dave McCoy]

As I said in the match thread I'm not sure I've ever seen a worse collection of defenders at the PL level than this team has right now.  There is no way you would ever want to buy a defender from Norwich.  I guess Kabak will help but certain posters should be pretty ashamed of themselves in the pretty recent past for some outrageous posts about the club not splurging on Jamal Lewis.  My god....

[Simplexity]

I don't understand how they are supposed to win a game of football in the PL. Then again they are facing Everton at the weekend so they will probably get something.

[Drinks Sangria]

It's weird, they're definitely not worse than that Derby side, but they may end up with a similar if not inferior points total. If they get Rashica, Tziolis, Cantwell all working well in tandem they will start to create more (Rashica was lively against us on the opening day) but they are just fallow to the core.

I genuinely believe that they do operate on a model based upon yo-yoing, the inducements, as long as you don't spend massively when you're in the Premier League, are huge. They've done what this summer, spent less than Ł30m, having sold Ł45m worth of players last year, got players like Kabak on deals whereby the only obligation to buy is with them staying up.

You could point at Villa and Fulham in recent seasons, who've spent Ł100m+ and either been relegated or gone perilously close, but they made a go of it and you can't predicate your entire strategy on other club's allocation of resources. They're happy internally I'm sure with the same rinse and repeat that they've done for three years running now.

Farke's never once been under threat; they play lovely incisive football too good for most Championship sides, who lack the technical quality to pick them apart, but at this level, that defence is embarrassingly poor. Omobamidele looked a serious prospect the back end of last season and Aarons has attacking quality, but Kabak aside, every defender looks incapable at this level.

The midfield has talent but is porous, with no one you'd say is a holding player equipped for Premier League football - Skipp was good in the Championship but has gone back to Spurs, Rupp and Sorensen look out of their depth. Pukki seems to have lost a yard then they're relying on unproven entities for goals. It's all a bit worrying for Norwich fans, but as long as they carry on with the 'just happy to be here, along for the ride' stance, they'll forever do what they're doing.

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

As I said in the match thread I'm not sure I've ever seen a worse collection of defenders at the PL level than this team has right now.  There is no way you would ever want to buy a defender from Norwich.  I guess Kabak will help but certain posters should be pretty ashamed of themselves in the pretty recent past for some outrageous posts about the club not splurging on Jamal Lewis.  My god....

Jamal Lewis who has been at Newcastle for 12 months?

[Buck Pete]

Delia upgrades her AGA every 2 years. She's happy.

[Sheer Magnetism]

The thing is, clubs often point to the sell-to-progress method as the way they want to go about things, but that only lasts as long as you're always buying good players and appointing good managers. If you have a year or two where things don't work out you're screwed. 

Norwich came straight back up because they kept hold of most of their best players after going down last time, but Buendia's already gone, Pukki's ageing out and Aarons, Cantwell, Gilmour and Rashica - all their best young players - will be out the door in the next year. Why should anyone stay at a club if its owners have already given up on the season before it's started?

[El Lobo]

And to think they spent more than us in the summer

[jackh]

Stuck in the everlasting pergatory of attracting players that are good enough to get out of the Championship but not good enough for the Premier League.

Will they ever just roll the dice one summer and buy and/or loan players that can keep them up? They're a well run club so it's not as if it'll ruin them financially. Unless or course they're perfect happy the way they are.

I think they tried this ahead of their third season up (2013/14) 'recently', but it ended up being the season they went down and then they didn't return for a few years.

I read an article with their sporting director a while back (Stuart Webber?) where he said their aim is to be a ‘top 25 club’. They’re basically fine with being relegated but the following season they should be getting, or at least challenging for, promotion.

Seems fair enough.

[Fromola]

Almost certainly going straight back down. They've had the same problem every single time they come back up, they can't defend for shit

They're too soft centred for the Premier League. They get away with it in The Championship because they can beat teams on quality and have players like Pukki who can score every week at that level. They could do with a few like Nat Phillips to toughen them up a bit.

They also go up and sell key players and spend about 6 million quid on 10 players to replace them.

Even in The Championship last season, despite winning the league comfortably, Brentford scored more and Watford conceded less. They come up and always struggle in both boxes, despite playing pretty football.

[jackh]

I've soap-boxed a few times about Norwich (and West Brom) recently- as easy as it is to write them of as a rubbish/fodder when they're in the top flight, I actually think these clubs do a very good job for their supporters and deserve a bit more credit.

I don't think it should be totally overlooked that relegation for a club like Sheffield United isn't exactly a terrible failure - sure, they'd have hoped for better this season but they've spent six of the last ten years in the third tier and (unless they completely implode and get relegated again next season) can still look at this last 4/5 years as a successful period.

Looking at the example of Ipswich, between 1991-92 and 2004-05 that 5th place Premier League finish in 2000-01 is the only particularly 'remarkable' season (positively or negatively) - but for that fantastic season, they spent 14 years between 16th in the top flight and 7th in the second tier.  They finished between 6th & 16th in the Championship in the 13 years that followed (before being relegated).

Don't think relegation from the top flight for either club should really be seen as a significant failure - for both, it occurs (or occurred) amidst a relatively good chapter for the club.

Similarly, I always find myself sticking up for Norwich and West Brom a bit - these are clubs for whom cycles of relegation and promotion are basically their level...generally too good to not to come up and not good enough to stay up.  Norwich had a bit of a disaster after being relegated from the Premier League in 2005, dropping to League one in 2009, but have otherwise seemed to do quite well since - successive promotions, survived in the top flight into a third campaign, back up & down again since - they'll have been disappointed to drop out in 2016 (third season) but 14th in the Championship in 2018 looks like their only particularly 'bad' season since 2009.

West Brom, I'd argue, are basically on a 20 year good run.  It all fell apart a bit in 2017-18 (the end of an eight year spell) and they've clearly got a bit of work to do in the next 18 months if they want to return & survive (and prolong that 20-odd year spell), but generally I'd say they've been very consistent in the last two decades.

Like Klopp said way back in his first press conference, not everyone can win every time.  I think it's worth recognising the merits of relative success and not just defining a team/club based on their decline from their peak.  And I think that the notion of clubs being "pointless" ignores the essence of what a club is (or should be) and all of the unifying, community aspects of it.  Considering clubs outside the top six (generally-accepted top six  ) risks sending you on a path towards franchises and European Super Leagues.

I've got no particular fondness (or the opposite) for the 4/5 teams mentioned, but think they've all enjoyed significant achievements in the time-frames touched upon (I'll add Watford's recent 5-year stay in the Premier League to that), and wouldn't just want to write them off as "pointless" - they're focal points for hopes & dreams don't you know, however far removed they might feel from Champions League finals and so on...!


Feel like I've on occasion had more respect for their achievement during my time watching football than I had for - lets say - underachieving versions of Newcastle, Villa, & West Ham during the last 10-15 years who've often seemed to refuse to drop.  That version of Villa that got relegated a few seasons ago seemed to have clung on for about six seasons - far more pointless than what Norwich and West Brom were doing for their fans at the time.

Who should be instead?

Brentford established themselves well - following promotion from League One - at Championship level, with 5 top-half finishes before two consecutive playoff-position finishes eventually saw them achieve promotion.  If they finish bottom this season, their still admist a very good spell in the club's history.

Norwich - to me - appear about as well-run as a club can be.  Being in the top flight pretty much as often as they're not is a very good achievement for Norwich City - they're giving their supporters regular top flight football and tend to bounce back quickly if they go down.  Like West Brom, they're a club who you pretty much expect to finish in the bottom or top six every single season - with both have overachieved as much as they've underachieved according to that criteria in recent years, so I find it hard to criticise; much the opposite, actually.

Watford are pretty much a long-established second tier club who've come straight back up after being relegated off the back of a five-year stint in the top flight (their best since a six-year stint in the '80s, from which they took over a decade to recover).  Bit of a basket-case club when you look at the ownership and regular managerial change, but it seems to work for them.

But for Norwich looking reasonably steady in the 80s, I'd say a case can be made for all three of these clubs (plus West Brom) enjoying pretty much the best spells in their history - not sure how they're not 'worthy' of a place in the league, unless you want to reduce it to 12/15/18 teams or something.  Pillars of their communities achieving for their supporters.

[Fromola]

It's weird, they're definitely not worse than that Derby side, but they may end up with a similar if not inferior points total.

They finished with 21 a couple of seasons ago. Sheff United had 2 points after 17 games last season and finished on more than that, despite everyone saying they were going to beat Derby's record. And they were still shite all season. It really takes some doing to be near 11 points after 38 games.

In fairness to Norwich they've only played 5 league games and they included Liverpool, Man City, Arsenal away and Leicester. Games they'd expect to lose and they were a bit unlucky not to get something from those last 2. They lost to Watford, which is bad, but Watford turned them over twice in the league last year as well.

They're too naive to do what's required to get the 40 points - quality over quantity with transfers would help and more pragmatic approach in games - but they're going to win a few games during the season at least. They're not as bad as Sheff U last season.

[Fromola]

I've soap-boxed a few times about Norwich (and West Brom) recently- as easy as it is to write them of as a rubbish/fodder when they're in the top flight, I actually think these clubs do a very good job for their supporters and deserve a bit more credit.

I'd prefer the Norwich approach because they at least serve up entertaining football (which must be great at least when you're in The Championship and winning regularly). West Brom play dirge football with every merry go rounder on the circuit. Even when they had a few years in the Prem without relegation it was with Hodgson and Pulis.

[Dave McCoy]

Jamal Lewis who has been at Newcastle for 12 months?

Yes.  There were multiple posters ranting and raving during our down turn last season how getting Tsimikas instead of spending what it took to get Lewis was a huge issue and mistake by FSG.

[Fromola]

Jamal Lewis is a bang average defender  even by Newcastle's standards but Godfrey seemed a very good talent at Everton last season. One of the few good signings they've made in recent years.

[arthur sarnoff]

Good mate of mine is a Norwich fan, he's really not arsed about the PL.  He enjoys being in the championship more.  People say they should spend more and give it a go, etc, but then where's the fun in just surviving every season?  They're never going to win the league, they're not going to get into Europe, so why spend money just to be in Burnley's position? 

[El Lobo]

Not to say he’s wrong, but Leicester won the league two seasons after promotion, Sheff United nearly got into Europe the season they came up. Accepting relegation before the seasons even started is just stupid.

[Fromola]

Good mate of mine is a Norwich fan, he's really not arsed about the PL.  He enjoys being in the championship more.  People say they should spend more and give it a go, etc, but then where's the fun in just surviving every season?  They're never going to win the league, they're not going to get into Europe, so why spend money just to be in Burnley's position?

Of course he would. Their last two Championship seasons they finished 1st and 1st. Their last two PL seasons they finished 19th and 20th. Since 2004 they've been promoted to the PL 5 times and relegated from the PL 4 times. Therefore they associate The Championship with joy and the PL with despair.

Fans are going to enjoy watching their team win every week, more than they will watching them lose every week.

Eventually though even promotion seasons will lose their appeal, if they're just going up to go back down again and get beat every week.

[arthur sarnoff]

Eventually though even promotion seasons will lose their appeal, if they're just going up to go back down again and get beat every week.

I'll put that to him next time I see him.  I don't think he'll have quite the same view.

[scatman]

Honestly, they run their club well. Burnley did the same until they sold out to the leveraged buy out merchants. They are not going for broke to get promoted like other clubs and not going for broke to stay in the top league like other clubs. They are using their resources well and making sure they stay solvent. This is something that should not be derided with the way a lot of clubs are run these days (not just in England). One season it will just somehow click and they'll consolidate. That's what happened with Burnley, they were going up and down too. (hopefully they fucking go down now though)

[bird_lfc]

At least they occasionally have something to shout about. Compare them to rivals Ipswich who I used to go watch quite regularly, pretty much the Everton of the championship for 10 plus years then got relegated and now struggling to get out of league 1.