Topic: FAN UPDATE - Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas

[Graham Smith]

Graham - What happened to the local kids taking up the 1000+ empty seats per game? Has this started? It was brilliant when suggested last year but I've not heard any more?

To me that's win win for everyone.

I think the Main Stand opening and the hullabaloo over the touted local sales has put this on the back burner for now. Not due to the touting, more to concentrating on other issues.

Still on the agenda.

[Graham Smith]

In terms of the 500 U1/U9 tickets, I've seen this mentioned a few times now and I'm interested where the club are getting this figure from bearing in mind they haven't done full checks on them? I know they've been asking the odd person how much they paid for them when they're walking to their seats but me and my mates have been up there for virtually every game and never been asked once.

Not saying it isn't the case but I've a healthy scepticism (of the club, not Graham) on this issue. Just seems to me there is a reason they keep putting this line out. Don't get me wrong, I know there's a good number getting passed on (partly down to how the club set the scheme up & using paper tickets etc.) but I'm unsure on whether it's as much as the club are saying.

It is pretty accurate - pre-Christmas they did spot checks and this was the ratio of tickets that were ending up not in the hands of the buyer.

There are people who aren't keen on this inside the Club but there are enough of us wanting to see it succeed for the recent changes and clamp down to have happened.

[Graham Smith]

What riles me the most are the 'sound people' on twitter with god knows how many cards, selling them week in week out.

Be careful who you pass your card on to as it could end up in the hands of these people, and could end up getting your card blocked.

Had a close call recently myself that I am not going to get into or name names on here but that is what happened basically.

Why the club dont do anything about it is unbelievable

He issue and limited resources - getting better access systems would help, linking person to ticket better.

[Graham Smith]

I'll wager 50 quid to the first taker that absolutely fuck all will happen next season and the following season to curb away touting and if they ever get around to it the away tickets they recover from touts will be used as a selling point to sell the most expensive seasonal hospitality tickets ie buy expensive seasonal hospitality and you can buy away tickets with no credits required.

I'll take that bet - over the next two seasons something will happen to address credit hunting and touting of away tickets.

And the new system won't see an explosion in them being syphoned off as transparency in sales breakdowns is being sought.

[Redman0151]

I'll take that bet - over the next two seasons something will happen to address credit hunting and touting of away tickets.

And the new system won't see an explosion in them being syphoned off as transparency in sales breakdowns is being sought.

this is something we really need to see. The sales criteria for certain aways doesn't make sense, bigger allocations selling out on more credits than smaller ones etc

[Graham Smith]

this is something we really need to see. The sales criteria for certain aways doesn't make sense, bigger allocations selling out on more credits than smaller ones etc

Bournemouth this season was a special case - although not acceptable - the allocation was low, a very small proportion of the 'super-corporate' asked for a handful of tickets and were given them, this meant that some of the 19+ credit people missed out (about 20).

Asking for those that missed out to at least have their 19+ credits protected.

[Paullfc95]

this is something we really need to see. The sales criteria for certain aways doesn't make sense, bigger allocations selling out on more credits than smaller ones etc

Agree. Middlesbrough and United were a joke in terms of what credits they sold out on

[Brunswickred]

It is pretty accurate - pre-Christmas they did spot checks and this was the ratio of tickets that were ending up not in the hands of the buyer.

That's fair enough but that is/can be a different issue to the tickets being touted. For example, I might buy for me and three mates and then if someone can't make it pass their ticket on to another mate (living in Liverpool) at FV. If they checked in the ground then they wouldn't be the person named on the ticket but that doesn't mean the ticket has been touted. Not disagreeing that there is a problem at all but if the club are equating ticket holder not being the person named on the ticket = up to 60% of tickets being touted then that is misleading, though do understand it's tricky for them to come up with a reliable figure while the current process remains the way that it is.

[swoopy]

That's fair enough but that is/can be a different issue to the tickets being touted. For example, I might buy for me and three mates and then if someone can't make it pass their ticket on to another mate (living in Liverpool) at FV. If they checked in the ground then they wouldn't be the person named on the ticket but that doesn't mean the ticket has been touted. Not disagreeing that there is a problem at all but if the club are equating ticket holder not being the person named on the ticket = up to 60% of tickets being touted then that is misleading, though do understand it's tricky for them to come up with a reliable figure while the current process remains the way that it is.

This is why they need a transfer system in place though

You transfer the ticket online any time up to kick off to the nominated number. They then enter using their own card.

[Graham Smith]

That's fair enough but that is/can be a different issue to the tickets being touted. For example, I might buy for me and three mates and then if someone can't make it pass their ticket on to another mate (living in Liverpool) at FV. If they checked in the ground then they wouldn't be the person named on the ticket but that doesn't mean the ticket has been touted. Not disagreeing that there is a problem at all but if the club are equating ticket holder not being the person named on the ticket = up to 60% of tickets being touted then that is misleading, though do understand it's tricky for them to come up with a reliable figure while the current process remains the way that it is.

All the spot checks asked for what sum they paid for the tickets - all not with the named buyer met the same response of more than £9. Touted.

[Danny Boys Dad]

Any system that allows a ticket to be transferred from the purchaser to someone else is open to touting, and isn't the transfer of football tickets illegal anyway, even at face value?

Any system that involves people getting credit for purchasing tickets which then gives them advantages over other people is open to abuse as well, as is any system that makes people buy tickets up to 5 or 6 months in advance when the actual day and time of the match isn't fixed.

Pay on the gate on the day for all is the answer 

[Brunswickred]

All the spot checks asked for what sum they paid for the tickets - all not with the named buyer met the same response of more than £9. Touted.

Ah right I see. That's fair enough, guess they are less likely to ask a group of four scouse lads who are running up to their seats a few minutes before kick off!

Cheers for your responses on this one.

[RedPat]

I'll take that bet - over the next two seasons something will happen to address credit hunting and touting of away tickets.

And the new system won't see an explosion in them being syphoned off as transparency in sales breakdowns is being sought.

Gladly lose this bet to you Graham.

[John_P]

All the spot checks asked for what sum they paid for the tickets - all not with the named buyer met the same response of more than £9. Touted.

Graham, the first few games members who bought in the local general sales had their cards activated. After a few games however this was changed to everyone getting tickets instead. Why did this happen? Surely if anything it would make touting those tickets easier.

[Graham Smith]

Graham, the first few games members who bought in the local general sales had their cards activated. After a few games however this was changed to everyone getting tickets instead. Why did this happen? Surely if anything it would make touting those tickets easier.

No, they moved this way so they could have people pick the tickets up from the TO and have to show ID and also do that closer to the game to try and disrupt the touts selling them on. They added greater scrutiny of these areas on match days too.

[dudleyred]

It's great to hear the club are deep in talks about tackling touting

It's never been particularly overt but have to say Graham you are giving confidence that the club is wanting to find a solution which is great - thanks for the updates

[davidsteventon]

It's great to hear the club are deep in talks about tackling touting

Devil's advocate here Graham.

Why do the club want to tackle it? They don't seem to want to tackle anything, or are inept at doing so in those areas they try,

So why this? What's in it for them?

The atmosphere and marketing it is something that makes them money in a roundabout way - but they don't do anything for it.

What's in it for Liverpool Football Club to pay more than lip service to touting?

[Graham Smith]

Devil's advocate here Graham.

Why do the club want to tackle it? They don't seem to want to tackle anything, or are inept at doing so in those areas they try,

So why this? What's in it for them?

The atmosphere and marketing it is something that makes them money in a roundabout way - but they don't do anything for it.

What's in it for Liverpool Football Club to pay more than lip service to touting?

They are under massive pressure all the time from fans about tickets and access. The numbers I posted earlier in the thread show that there are thousands of tickets touted or in the wrong hands and if these can be repatriated then it only helps.

They have a season ticket waiting list of 20,000+ as well with currently no chance of anyone above say 7,500 probably having a chance of a ticket in the next ten years.

And there are some good people in the staff at LFC who want things sorted.

It isn't a new thing either the amnesty was talked about a couple of years ago but is being put off while the MS beds in.

[Hightown Phil]

Would putting a certain number of away tickets, lets say 10% of the allocation, in a pot that goes to some form of ballot not possibly be a good idea? Not sure who you'd make the ballot open to exactly, ST holders, members with x home games, everyone etc etc but it probably does need to open up a little bit really. More credits you've got for home games or something the more entries you get in a ballot or something.

People who go every week wouldn't suffer, and even people who have 6 credits for example, but it would open up an extra 13 games as a possibility to them as week.

Abolish the percentage of tickets that agencies sell and they're freed up anyway.

[Sooty89!!!]

Would putting a certain number of away tickets, lets say 10% of the allocation, in a pot that goes to some form of ballot not possibly be a good idea? Not sure who you'd make the ballot open to exactly, ST holders, members with x home games, everyone etc etc but it probably does need to open up a little bit really. More credits you've got for home games or something the more entries you get in a ballot or something.

People who go every week wouldn't suffer, and even people who have 6 credits for example, but it would open up an extra 13 games as a possibility to them as week.

Abolish the percentage of tickets that agencies sell and they're freed up anyway.

Wouldnt be a bad idea as long as the tickets were taken from the corporate/sponsors pot, I don't think it would be fair on people who have built loyalty up over the years to miss out! We've seen this year what an impact last seasons corporate STH being in the main pot has had.

[corbyRed]

Sure I read somewhere a month or so back that the club had employed an ex-copper to head up an anti touting/ticket fraud dept so guess they are keen to try and do something.
Long overdue

[Priest078]

Gladly lose this bet to you Graham.

Good news as it might open aways up again

[Priest078]

That touting page is back on FB , twats

[mattyyt]

There was a few stewards with clipboards checking people's tickets as they went up the stairs to the pitch in U9 today.

Also four foreign lads sat in front of me, fuming when they realised face value was £9 and they'd been ripped off. Hope the clipboard fellas caught them and work out who gave them the tickets

[swoopy]

That touting page is back on FB , twats

So it is.. Need to get the club to create some fake FB Accounts, start messaging them asking for seat details and finding out who they are

Will they do it though? doubt it

[Priest078]

So it is.. Need to get the club to create some fake FB Accounts, start messaging them asking for seat details and finding out who they are

Will they do it though? doubt it

Jesus fucking Christ just been looking and found more.

Is thier an email address at LFC to report these people ?

Loads of Irish funding these fucking parastites

[kalle-anka]

You'd imagine that the logic step would be for the club to start dealing with websites and twitter accounts before taking tickets away from genuine fans. 

[Always_A_Red]

You'd imagine that the logic step would be for the club to start dealing with websites and twitter accounts before taking tickets away from genuine fans.

Two words that are rarely associated with our ticket office & club

[Big Red Richie]

As I said earlier.  Snatch squads outside the ground, and fake buyers (or buyers from within the club)  to trace tickets back to source, would be a good start to solving a lot of issues.

You can never stamp it out completely, as as you solve one way of touting, the touts will just find another way of doing business, but you could certainly clamp down on about 80% of it, with a well thought out plan involving the club, police, trading standards, and the involvement of fans  reporting it.


We have to make it socially unacceptable again.  We have to make the touts pariahs.

[Priest078]

needs reporting ASAP it's massive

[andy07]

Might contact the Club and offer my services to rid them of touting, will be interesting to see their response.

[Grobbelrevell]

Broadly in favour of action in these areas. Difficult to argue against some of the proposals outlined by Graham there.

[Tommypig]

I think there needs to be concessions on all sides to make things work (including ticket pricing) and the primary concern should be to get multiple memberships and season tickets into individual names.

Everyone gets issued with a 3 year cycle photo identity ticket. cost say £10 a time

Therefore can be spot checked that the user is the right person and if technology allows as you come through the turnstile the image displays on screen and Stewards can see you as you come in.

If you have mates or family who use your cards when you don't go then they should make sure they have their own photo identity ticket at £10 every 3 years this should be feasible.

If you can't go to a game and want to transfer to a fellow member (as long as they are registered) you can for a £5 fee  (I think it's important there is a nominal charge) online you deactivate your card and the fellow members card is activated.   They also get an email / text alert with the seat details.
Say CUT OFF 3-5 hours before Kick off.   
You don't need set limits if they are members you can transfer to them.
(Yes Touts will be able to still transfer but their buying market has been severely slashed and the number of cards they have will be limited)

I also think there should be a permanent right to be able to transfer a season ticket to a family member or a friend if you can no longer go.
(IMPORTANT TO KEEP GROUPS AND FRIENDS TOGETHER AT GAMES) I know it effects the waiting list but that is a concession that has to be made.

As part of the amnesty transfers can be made left right and centre to help ensure we have one member per person.
Not 6 members for one person. 
The club should be able to see patterns if a particular address has more than 4-6 member cards registered there.

PRICING important to help with  - concessions
KOP ENDS and ANFIELD ROAD ENDS bring them down to £20- £30 EACH
Centenary and Main STAND STAGGERED PRICING from corners to CENTRE escalating £30-£40-£50-£60-£70 on blocks as you get more central - You should pay ,more for a better seat and this in turn helps finance the lower pricing in the Kop ends -   
I know people will say why should I pay more for seats I have sat in all my life but this is where the consession comes in to help all supporters so from the outset you are in a section that you can afford no one is taking your right to a ticket.
Also I know ticket revenue is a small percentage of club revenue with TV money but they are not going to totally reduce pricing the objective should be to help as may people as possible to have access to cheaper seats and to make this happen others will pay more for a beter experience.

Big issue is the membership cards and wjat happens to the loyalty if you transfer to a friend and I really don't know what to suggest as this is a big part of the ticket access problem with this secondary "season ticket" and it shoudl be phased out to give people more access to get to the game but how I don't know.

[jizzspunk]

I think there needs to be concessions on all sides to make things work (including ticket pricing) and the primary concern should be to get multiple memberships and season tickets into individual names.

Everyone gets issued with a 3 year cycle photo identity ticket. cost say £10 a time

Therefore can be spot checked that the user is the right person and if technology allows as you come through the turnstile the image displays on screen and Stewards can see you as you come in.

If you have mates or family who use your cards when you don't go then they should make sure they have their own photo identity ticket at £10 every 3 years this should be feasible.

If you can't go to a game and want to transfer to a fellow member (as long as they are registered) you can for a £5 fee  (I think it's important there is a nominal charge) online you deactivate your card and the fellow members card is activated.   They also get an email / text alert with the seat details.
Say CUT OFF 3-5 hours before Kick off.   
You don't need set limits if they are members you can transfer to them.
(Yes Touts will be able to still transfer but their buying market has been severely slashed and the number of cards they have will be limited)

I also think there should be a permanent right to be able to transfer a season ticket to a family member or a friend if you can no longer go.
(IMPORTANT TO KEEP GROUPS AND FRIENDS TOGETHER AT GAMES) I know it effects the waiting list but that is a concession that has to be made.

As part of the amnesty transfers can be made left right and centre to help ensure we have one member per person.
Not 6 members for one person. 
The club should be able to see patterns if a particular address has more than 4-6 member cards registered there.

PRICING important to help with  - concessions
KOP ENDS and ANFIELD ROAD ENDS bring them down to £20- £30 EACH
Centenary and Main STAND STAGGERED PRICING from corners to CENTRE escalating £30-£40-£50-£60-£70 on blocks as you get more central - You should pay ,more for a better seat and this in turn helps finance the lower pricing in the Kop ends -   
I know people will say why should I pay more for seats I have sat in all my life but this is where the consession comes in to help all supporters so from the outset you are in a section that you can afford no one is taking your right to a ticket.
Also I know ticket revenue is a small percentage of club revenue with TV money but they are not going to totally reduce pricing the objective should be to help as may people as possible to have access to cheaper seats and to make this happen others will pay more for a beter experience.

Big issue is the membership cards and wjat happens to the loyalty if you transfer to a friend and I really don't know what to suggest as this is a big part of the ticket access problem with this secondary "season ticket" and it shoudl be phased out to give people more access to get to the game but how I don't know.

a number of potential technology failings in there

image checks at turnstiles is ridiculous......it's a game of football.....

[Tommypig]

a number of potential technology failings in there

image checks at turnstiles is ridiculous......it's a game of football.....

Which is why I said if technology allows - the idea is as you scan your card as you have come in through the turnstile your photo is already on your member card and it would appear on screen above turnstile in the ground, It then allow as you come through the steward looks up and then looks at your face - maybe far fetched but objective is to make it a deterrent to stop people using someone else's card.

[KOTP]

I think there needs to be concessions on all sides to make things work (including ticket pricing) and the primary concern should be to get multiple memberships and season tickets into individual names.

Everyone gets issued with a 3 year cycle photo identity ticket. cost say £10 a time

Therefore can be spot checked that the user is the right person and if technology allows as you come through the turnstile the image displays on screen and Stewards can see you as you come in.

If you have mates or family who use your cards when you don't go then they should make sure they have their own photo identity ticket at £10 every 3 years this should be feasible.

If you can't go to a game and want to transfer to a fellow member (as long as they are registered) you can for a £5 fee  (I think it's important there is a nominal charge) online you deactivate your card and the fellow members card is activated.   They also get an email / text alert with the seat details.
Say CUT OFF 3-5 hours before Kick off.   
You don't need set limits if they are members you can transfer to them.
(Yes Touts will be able to still transfer but their buying market has been severely slashed and the number of cards they have will be limited)

I also think there should be a permanent right to be able to transfer a season ticket to a family member or a friend if you can no longer go.
(IMPORTANT TO KEEP GROUPS AND FRIENDS TOGETHER AT GAMES) I know it effects the waiting list but that is a concession that has to be made.

As part of the amnesty transfers can be made left right and centre to help ensure we have one member per person.
Not 6 members for one person. 
The club should be able to see patterns if a particular address has more than 4-6 member cards registered there.

PRICING important to help with  - concessions
KOP ENDS and ANFIELD ROAD ENDS bring them down to £20- £30 EACH
Centenary and Main STAND STAGGERED PRICING from corners to CENTRE escalating £30-£40-£50-£60-£70 on blocks as you get more central - You should pay ,more for a better seat and this in turn helps finance the lower pricing in the Kop ends -   
I know people will say why should I pay more for seats I have sat in all my life but this is where the consession comes in to help all supporters so from the outset you are in a section that you can afford no one is taking your right to a ticket.
Also I know ticket revenue is a small percentage of club revenue with TV money but they are not going to totally reduce pricing the objective should be to help as may people as possible to have access to cheaper seats and to make this happen others will pay more for a beter experience.

Big issue is the membership cards and wjat happens to the loyalty if you transfer to a friend and I really don't know what to suggest as this is a big part of the ticket access problem with this secondary "season ticket" and it shoudl be phased out to give people more access to get to the game but how I don't know.

like most of those ideas as long as those of us in main stand who your gonna put prices up for can transfer our season ticket to the anny road or Kop!

[SP]

a number of potential technology failings in there

image checks at turnstiles is ridiculous......it's a game of football.....

Camera on the turnstile. Someone sat in an office somewhere, possibly even in India, flagging possible mismatches. People who hide their face can similarly be flagged. All potential mismatches had seat number associated. A steward with a tablet can visually check against their card photo. I would imagine in most cases that people could be cleared without even needing to speak to them. If the same cards regularly get flagged to be checked. They can be denied entry without a visual check. It is all doable if there is a will to pursue it. 

[Big Red Richie]

Yes, something has to be done about the touting, but be careful what you wish for fellas.

They'll want a sperm sample, and DNA from both grandparents, at the turnstyles next.   

[Hightown Phil]

If someone dies I think you should be able to transfer a ticket to a friend or a member of your family who is on the waiting list. Is there anyone who'd have a genuine issue with that?

[Danny Boys Dad]

If someone dies I think you should be able to transfer a ticket to a friend or a member of your family who is on the waiting list. Is there anyone who'd have a genuine issue with that?

Probably the people who might be above the friend or family member on the waiting list but it would seem like a good idea, maybe for family and not just mates though.