Author Topic: Elections in Europe  (Read 167119 times)

Offline lamad

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1120 on: September 27, 2021, 07:13:15 pm »
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/berlin-social-democrats-b1927568.html

This is great from Berlin. Inevitably I can imagine this not being acted on, or delayed indefinitely.
This morning they said they would absolutely try to do this, as it has been voted upon, however, the first step now would be to check if and under which conditions this can be done in accordance with constitutional and legal rules. It will be interesting to see if they can manage to get it done. To be honest it would be overdue. Unfortunately Berlin has a history of fucking up decent ideas and it would not be the first time a plan on the left side of things crashes and burns.

Offline lamad

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1121 on: September 27, 2021, 07:36:55 pm »
Very pleased with that. Germany always needs a strong SPD.
True. They actually gained a decent percentage, admittedly from a very weak position, but still. The German system is very different to the UK, so makes no sense to compare Labour and German Social Democrats either (edit: I know this wasn't you). Germany is used to coalitions, the only one party majority government we had was in the early Sixties, on a nationwide scale basically no one could ever govern without a smaller partner (or as grand coalition).

In addition to the difference in popularity between SDPs leader and Merkel's successor, don't forget that the SDP have also been a part of the administration so they also benefit from the fact that people are pretty happy with things and that a vote for them isn't a great departure from the status quo or too big a risk
The funny thing is that for the past 16 years with Merkel as chancellor the SPD spent 12 years in the grand coalition and kept on haemorrhaging votes. Regardless of how okay things went, and they actually did quite a bit of good in those years (minimum wage would not have happend without them for example). But many people credited CDU/CSU and Merkel with the successes and the overall stability. Drove me nuts in the last two elections. At least now some saw the light of day, just in time you might say.

I cannot look into the minds of my fellow countryman, and you can bet there are enough idiots here as elsewhere, but from what I would guess (and understand from friends and family) the result is a combination of people being tired of a conservative led government (they have been 'in power' for 16 years damn it) and the fact that Armin Laschet turned out to be the wrong candidate. I would not go so far as to call him an idiot like stoa - there are definitely worse politicians in his party - but he really was hapless and never came across as someone you could see on the big international stage, he neither projected sufficient confidence nor competence. And yeah, we want to forget about the whole clusterfuck leading up to him becoming candidate, too.

Plus generally the political landscape has changed and has - just as in other European countries - become more fragmented and former smaller parties like the Greens have gained ground while the "big two" (SPD and CDU/CSU) have lost voters, especially among the younger population. Or rather they never had these; first time voters in their majority are not exactly conservative voters especially these days with various crisis on all fronts (climate, social, immigration etc.). Someone mentioned slow digitalization, although this probably played a smaller part. It is a problem that exists mainly in rural areas, in most mid/larger towns and the big cities there is decent to good digital infrastructure. So if the small entrepreneur living on a farm in the middle of nowhere has trouble getting his files to business partners did not vote conservative due to not having an internet/mobile connection, this will not have made a big overall impact. Unhappy as some might be with their digital situation (and it sure has an impact on them), they do not form a majority, or at least it will rarely be the main reason for a vote.

Thankfully the AFD has lost a bit, although I still see a double digit figure and it leaves me speechless. How anyone can vote for this fascist and racist neo Nazi party - in Germany of all places - is just something which is beyond me and I think it is shameful. Admittedly it is mainly in the 'new' Eastern states like Saxony were they got majorities and in central areas and cities they have single digits only (it is something like 7% where I am in Frankfurt/Main, which is still seven percent too much if you ask me).

Anyway, there will be some interesting weeks ahead. It will all hinge on whether the Greens and the Liberals can find common ground. Basically out of all the four main parties they are the furthest apart in some key aspects, so this will prove tricky. But both sides have already signalled they will talk with each other and try to sort out something. Whoever they then pick - the social democratic or the conservative offer - is actually the second step. Of course officially they will be picked, but for now they are in the driver's seat. I really hope they will get their shit together (although I could have done without the liberals) and we will get what has been dubbed 'traffic light'. It is rather preposterous of the conservative party to still claim they want to govern with Laschet as chancellor, when a) they only came in second, b) they have lost almost 9% while the Social Democrats have gained 6% and c) barely anyone wants Laschet as chancellor. If I were him I'd be glad to be able to say no to the job and they should just go and be the main opposition party for the next four years. How hard can it be, it is democracy after all. Not a conservative trait to admit defeat though. Really ridiculous.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2021, 08:11:04 pm by lamad »

Offline Linudden

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1122 on: September 27, 2021, 08:02:01 pm »
Thankfully the AFD has lost a bit, although I still see a double digit figure and it leaves me speechless. How anyone can vote for this fascist and racist neo Nazi party - in Germany of all places - is just something which is beyond me and I think it is shameful. Admittedly it is mainly in the 'new' Eastern states like Saxony were they got majorities and in central areas and cities they have single digits only (it is something like 7% where I am in Frankfurt/Main, which is still seven percent too much if you ask me).

I'm going to have to ask for a citation on that one. They definitely aren't the cleanest bunch in the world but they're not exactly neo nazis. I'm not interested enough to follow German politics closely even though I have decent knowledge of the language but the really radical stuff would not gather 10 % electoral support in a country like Germany. Usually the actual Nazis hate any parliamentary party and think they're 'controlled opposition' or some bullshit like that. They reject electoral politics altogether and instead engage in crime and terrorism.

At some point but probably a decade down the line the AFD probably will end up being a passive support party for CDU/CSU or even the FDP once the shadow of Merkel's bipartisanship is gone. That's usually what happens in multi-party systems. The closer they get to other parties, the more they will moderate and presumably grow in the west. That being said, I've a masters' degree in political science and if I'd wrote such a blanket statement in a thesis or at an exam I'd gotten 'did not pass'. Maybe at most 1 % of Germans would sympathize with Nazis, so let's be a little serious. Everyone here knows that I'm a Libertarian anyway, I fall outside of any traditional left-right paradigm, wouldn't like a single German party and I haven't sat foot in Germany since 2007 so I don't really have a dog in the fight but let's not go completely overboard with this.

If anything you should be happy they didn't do better considering their pre-covid opinion polling. You're going to have the Greens as the makeweight in any government for the next years and the AFD will have no influence whatsoever. None.

Even so, I think re-partitioning Germany into a very loose federation where the east gets its own maximum devolved parliament similar to Scotland could be a good idea. The Berlin Wall is still a strong shadow in German politics and I think a lot of 'Ossies' just vote whatever they think fucks over 'die Wessies' as much as they can rather than think about who they're voting for. That's probably the biggest explanation why they only do well in the East. Regional animosity more than actual policy.

So all in all, it's better to look at the root cause for general discontent than to lash out with the angriest labels at what a small subset of society are voting for. What difference does it make? They're still in parliament and they can't do anything with it. If Britain had a similar system whatever party Frottage was running would be nailed on for 15 % for sure but most likely fall short to a Tory/Lib or Lab/Lib coalition. That's a consequence of multi-party systems and PR that everyone will have to deal with in that sense. If the leftist government you cherish would do well, presumably the AFD would capsize, shouldn't that be the goal? Convincing those people to vote differently?

I hope you understand where I'm coming from with this  :wave
« Last Edit: September 27, 2021, 08:23:50 pm by Linudden »
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Offline lamad

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1123 on: September 27, 2021, 08:25:05 pm »
I'm going to have to ask for a citation on that one. They definitely aren't the cleanest bunch in the world but they're not exactly neo nazis. Usually the actual Nazis hate any parliamentary party and think they're 'controlled opposition' or some bullshit like that. They reject electoral politics altogether and instead engage in crime and terrorism.

At some point but probably a decade down the line the AFD probably will end up being a passive support party for CDU/CSU or even the FDP once the shadow of Merkel's bipartisanship is gone. That's usually what happens in multi-party systems. The closer they get to other parties, the more they will moderate and presumably grow in the west. That being said, I've a masters' degree in political science and if I'd wrote such a blanket statement in a thesis or at an exam I'd gotten 'did not pass'. Maybe at most 1 % of Germans would sympathize with Nazis, so let's be a little serious. Everyone here knows that I'm a Libertarian anyway, I fall outside of any traditional left-right paradigm, wouldn't like a single German party and I haven't sat foot in Germany since 2007 so I don't really have a dog in the fight but let's not go completely overboard with this.

If anything you should be happy they didn't do better considering their pre-covid opinion polling. You're going to have the Greens as the makeweight in any government for the next years and the AFD will have no influence whatsoever. None.

Even so, I think re-partitioning Germany into a very loose federation where the east gets its own maximum devolved parliament similar to Scotland could be a good idea. The Berlin Wall is still a strong shadow in German politics and I think a lot of 'Ossies' just vote whatever they think fucks over 'die Wessies' as much as they can rather than think about who they're voting for. That's probably the biggest explanation why they only do well in the East. Regional animosity more than actual policy.
Okay, I am not getting dragged into this, but there really is no going overboard here. There are sufficient direct links and relations with far, far right groups and yes, neo Nazis, among members of the AFD (and highly influential ones, too).

I could pick most of your reasoning apart, but this would take too much time and nerves on my part, and let's be honest with each other, at the end of the day it would lead nowhere. But trust me, yes, they are a neo Nazi party, of course in disguise. If you think these guys reject parliamentarism... I mean you keep claiming you have a master in politics - you know how Hitler came into power, right? By getting voted into parliament, oops. And he sounded halfway moderate in the beginning, to the outside and to the voting public (let's ignore Mein Kampf had been published, because at the time most did). Have you read the AFD manifests for nationwide and state elections from the last few years? Followed speeches by members and realize who supports them at rallies and protests?
Ah well, I didn't want to, so. Goodnight all, for today.

Offline Linudden

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1124 on: September 27, 2021, 08:29:26 pm »
Well I'm mostly in the all parties are shit camp and I don't do lesser evils these days you know. I really am skeptical that a party that radical would claim 10 % in a country like Germany though. Something does not add up with the Germans I've met and spoken to in their own language to have me believe that country would have that many people completely off the rails.

The great satan though never got elected to form a majority government, he seized power from a minority position and then arrested his political enemies. It's completely incomprehensible that someone would be able to pull something off like that in the materially well-off Germany of the 2020's.

I think you can rest assured that Germany will still be a democratic state for a long time ahead.

Disclaimer: I obviously do not endorse the AFD.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2021, 08:58:28 pm by Linudden »
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Offline lamad

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1125 on: September 27, 2021, 08:58:24 pm »
Well I'm mostly in the all parties are shit camp and I don't do lesser evils these days you know. I really am skeptical that a party that radical would claim 10 % in a country like Germany though. Something does not add up with the Germans I've met and spoken to in their own language to have me believe that country would have that many people completely off the rails.

The great satan though never got elected to form a majority government, he seized power from a minority position and then arrested his political enemies. It's completely incomprehensible that someone would be able to pull something off like that in the materially well-off Germany of the 2020's.

I think you can rest assured that Germany will still be a democratic state for a long time ahead.
I am not saying they will gain power anytime soon - and if you think I see them as a threat to democracy at this point in time, no I don't. And many who vote for them do so for various reasons and of course not all of the voters can be classed as neo Nazis, I never said that. But never underestimate the power of nationalism, racism and radicalism at work here.

Your point of view seems incredibly shortsighted: real Nazis are only boots on the ground dickheaded morons. No, they come with business suits and eloquent speeches and they know exactly how to catch people and votes. You speaking to Germans who do not think of them as what they really are is actually proving my point... they are really good at pretending they are a normal party who only want to do good for the German people. Of course there will not be a carbon copy of what happened in the 30s/40s if ever they gain more support, but that doesn't mean this beast will not try to raise its ugly head in some shape or form. Always be alert and remember to resist the beginnings.
Now really out of here for today, I've got a splitting headache anyway.

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1126 on: September 27, 2021, 09:01:21 pm »
Well I'm mostly in the all parties are shit camp and I don't do lesser evils these days you know. I really am skeptical that a party that radical would claim 10 % in a country like Germany though. Something does not add up with the Germans I've met and spoken to in their own language to have me believe that country would have that many people completely off the rails.

The great satan though never got elected to form a majority government, he seized power from a minority position and then arrested his political enemies. It's completely incomprehensible that someone would be able to pull something off like that in the materially well-off Germany of the 2020's.

I think you can rest assured that Germany will still be a democratic state for a long time ahead.

Mate just give it up. You've not been to Germany since 2007, you have no interest in following German politics despite your Masters degree in politics and your great grasp of the German language, but you know for sure that the AfD is not a neonazi-party, because clearly you've done extensive research before 2007 talking to loads and loads of German people and none of them would ever support an ideology like that. Just shut up. You have absolutely no clue about German politics and as you're from Sweden and we're in an English Liverpool-FC-forum there is no shame in that. Just stop talking about stuff you have absolutely no idea about.

The AfD is monitored by the German "Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz" ("Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution"), because of their potential connections to radical right-wing extremist groups and because of speeches their own members and leaders have given that were anti-democratic. Several of their members can be officially called "Neonazis" after courts decided that there's a legitimate reason to do so. Loads and loads of their members have close ties to neonazi groups or are/were even part of them. And even more members have made public statements or done things, that leave absolutely no room for discussion whether they are neonazis or not.

Just one example: Nikolaus Kramer. Leader of the AfD in the Landtag of Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania. He used to have a second Facebook-profile under a fake name, where he liked and shared posts of right-wing Burschenschaften or of the Identitäre Bewegung. With that profile he was also member of a closed group named after former SA-leader Ernst Röhm. Enough? Of course not. He was also part of an AfD-exclusive WhatsApp group where he shared a picture of the "Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler" with a note "Not every black block is bad". When he was asked about it, he said he didn't want to paint the SS in a positive light. Enough? Of course not. He used the N-word multiple times in the Landtag. What a fine young gentleman.

Of course you'll now say, he's just one guy and clearly all the others are not like him. Yeah, there will be people in that party who are not like him, but a great deal of their members are. Search for AfD Neonazi on the Google-machine. You will have no trouble finding countless other examples of people just like him right up to Tino Chrupalla the leading candidate in this election...
« Last Edit: September 27, 2021, 09:03:01 pm by stoa »

Offline TSC

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1127 on: September 27, 2021, 09:05:15 pm »
Well I'm mostly in the all parties are shit camp and I don't do lesser evils these days you know. I really am skeptical that a party that radical would claim 10 % in a country like Germany though. Something does not add up with the Germans I've met and spoken to in their own language to have me believe that country would have that many people completely off the rails.

The great satan though never got elected to form a majority government, he seized power from a minority position and then arrested his political enemies. It's completely incomprehensible that someone would be able to pull something off like that in the materially well-off Germany of the 2020's.

I think you can rest assured that Germany will still be a democratic state for a long time ahead.

Quick google. There are loads more articles but these few will do referencing the AFD party

https://jcpa.org/article/german-neo-nazis-and-a-new-party/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/revealed-the-rightwing-alternative-for-germany-afd-neonazi-manifesto-targeting-single-mothers-and-mentally-ill-that-antiimmigration-party-don-t-want-you-to-see-a6939941.html

https://www.tikkun.org/inside-germanys-new-crypto-nazi-party-an-afd-dissidents-report/

https://www.farrightwatch.net/2020/10/tories-rees-mogg-openly-supporting.html?m=1

Offline lamad

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1128 on: September 27, 2021, 09:17:34 pm »
Even so, I think re-partitioning Germany into a very loose federation where the east gets its own maximum devolved parliament similar to Scotland could be a good idea. The Berlin Wall is still a strong shadow in German politics...
Forgot to mention this and sorry, but it has to be said: I have read many things here over the years, but this must be one of the most nonsense things ever. You realise that every federal state in Germany already has its own parliament that is voted for separately in each state and that actually does devolved legislation, right? You really seem to have no clue about German politics and speaking to some Germans clearly doesn't seem to help.
Edit: Just read stoa's and TSC's postings, thanks for the points you make and for the links, I did not have the energy to do that and my headache gets worse by the minute (not Linudden's fault!). Gotta need an Aleve and then some sleep.  :wave
« Last Edit: September 27, 2021, 09:25:27 pm by lamad »

Offline Linudden

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1129 on: September 27, 2021, 09:21:52 pm »
Forgot to mention this and sorry, but it has to be said: I have read many things here over the years, but this must be one of the most nonsense things ever. You realise that every federal state in Germany already has its own parliament that is voted for separately in each state and that actually does devolved legislation, right? You really seem to have no clue about German politics and speaking to some Germans clearly doesn't seem to help.

I know. But it's not to the exact level Scotland is where it's basically quasi-independent already.
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Offline lamad

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1130 on: September 27, 2021, 09:23:27 pm »
I know. But it's not to the exact level Scotland is where it's basically quasi-independent already.
True it is different, but your idea is still utter nonsense. It basically re-raises the wall, when we finally got rid of it. I mean, really???

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1131 on: September 27, 2021, 09:30:38 pm »
I know. But it's not to the exact level Scotland is where it's basically quasi-independent already.

Is it fuck. Speaking nonsense about 2 countries now.

Offline lamad

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1132 on: September 27, 2021, 09:51:34 pm »
Is it fuck. Speaking nonsense about 2 countries now.
By this rate we will have been once around the world by morning. The Aleve is working and my headache is almost gone, so I could look forward to more gems like this (not). ;D

Offline Linudden

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1133 on: September 27, 2021, 09:53:46 pm »
By this rate we will have been once around the world by morning. The Aleve is working and my headache is almost gone, so I could look forward to more gems like this (not). ;D

Sleep well and hopefully you'll be satisfied with the next government either way  :)
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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1134 on: October 9, 2021, 08:54:02 pm »
Sebastian Kurz: Austrian leader resigns amid corruption inquiry

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58856796

Would barely even register as a scandal in the UK these days.
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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1135 on: October 9, 2021, 10:09:08 pm »
Sebastian Kurz: Austrian leader resigns amid corruption inquiry

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58856796

Would barely even register as a scandal in the UK these days.

To be honest, I hope it would, because it's much worse than what the BBC are reporting there. The allegations are that when Kurz was foreign minister him and his friends cut a deal with that tabloid newspaper so they would publish opinion polls that were showing Kurz should be the new leader of the party (i.e. how awful the guy in charge was doing and then how much better they would do with Kurz as leader) and they basically just kept fucking around with polls furthering their own agenda. The polls were paid for by the finance ministry, so they didn't even have to use their own money. None of the people charged have been found guilty yet, but what the proscutors are saying looks just horrible. Add to that, that in recent days more awful stuff has come out about how Kurz's guys have been talking about other politicians from their own party. It's awful awful stuff...

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1136 on: November 30, 2021, 04:01:25 pm »
EU advice on inclusive language withdrawn after rightwing outcry

Guidelines promoted use of ‘holiday season’ instead of Christmas and advised against saying ‘man-made’


Quote
An internal European commission document advising officials to use inclusive language such as “holiday season” rather than Christmas and avoid terms such as “man-made” has been withdrawn after an outcry from rightwing politicians.

The EU executive’s volte-face over the guidelines, launched by the commissioner for equality, Helena Dalli, at the end of October, was prompted by an article in the Italian tabloid Il Giornale which claimed it amounted to an attempt to “cancel Christmas”.

A series of politicians on the right, including the former president of the European parliament Antonio Tajani, a member of Silvio Berlusconi’s Forza Italia, subsequently jumped on the issue to voice their opposition to the “absurd” advice.

“Inclusion does not mean denying the Christian roots of [the EU]”, Tajani tweeted.

In response, Dalli, who had tweeted a picture of herself with the guidelines on 26 October, along with comments speaking of her pride in launching the document, issued an apologetic statement.

She said: “My initiative to draft guidelines as an internal document for communication by commission staff in their duties was intended to achieve an important aim: to illustrate the diversity of European culture and showcase the inclusive nature of the European commission towards all walks of life and beliefs of European citizens.

“However, the version of the guidelines published does not adequately serve this purpose. It is not a mature document and does not meet all commission quality standards. The guidelines clearly need more work. I therefore withdraw the guidelines and will work further on this document.”

The European commission, along with other EU institutions, has long been criticised for the lack of diversity among its staff. There are no non-white commissioners. As part of an update of the language to be used by its staff, the commission had asked officials to be more sensitive in their communications.

Officials working with the 27-strong commission college, led by Ursula von der Leyen, were advised to avoid assuming that everyone is Christian, white and married. Rather than refer to Christmas, officials should say “the holiday season”, the document suggested.

Officials were advised to avoid gender-specific pronouns and gendered words and phrases such as “chairman”, “ladies and gentleman” or “man-made”.

It was suggested that officials ask people what their pronouns are and to be careful using terms such as “gay” and “lesbians” as a noun. “Transgender, bi or intersex are not nouns.” … “Say trans people, gay person, etc or refer to the person explicitly,” it was suggested.

Following Dalli’s U-turn, Tajani tweeted that the rethink was a victory for common sense. He was joined in celebrating the move by the former Italian prime minister Matteo Renzi, who tweeted: “It was an absurd and wrong document. A community is not afraid of its roots. And cultural identity is a value, not a threat.”

Sophie in ’t Veld, a liberal Dutch MEP, said she was concerned by the commission’s sudden retreat on the issue. She said: “Commissioner Dalli deserves praise for having the courage to address the issue, be it in a somewhat clumsy way.

“The concerted misinformation and attacks on her by the far right and the subsequent response to these by the commission are concerning. We need to recognise that Europe and its institutions represent everyone. The institutions should be strictly neutral: let’s not forget the majority of Europeans are not religious.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/30/eu-advice-on-inclusive-language-withdrawn-after-rightwing-outcry

Offline Libertine

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1137 on: December 2, 2021, 02:43:32 pm »
Presidential primary results in France for LR (traditional centre-right party, not quite so "centre" anymore).

Safe to say this is a divided party......



Barnier's lurch to the right didn't quite work in the end. What a pity.....

Offline Libertine

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1138 on: January 31, 2022, 10:49:30 am »
The Socialists win an unexpected majority in Portugal. Probably deserved for their spectacular vaccine rollout success alone, by a distance the best in Europe.



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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1139 on: April 3, 2022, 11:05:55 pm »
Looks like Orban has secured himself another supermajority.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/03/viktor-orban-expected-to-win-big-majority-in-hungarian-general-election

Hungary is absolutely fucked.
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Offline Golyo

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1140 on: April 4, 2022, 09:38:06 am »
Looks like Orban has secured himself another supermajority.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/03/viktor-orban-expected-to-win-big-majority-in-hungarian-general-election

Hungary is absolutely fucked.
Looks like that from here as well. Fidesz has managed to capture the state in the last 12 years. Only they can reach the poorest in the country through media because their oligarchs bought tv channels and newspapers - these people now live in an alternate reality, Fidesz's. In the poorest regions, Fidesz reached 90%.
In the last month, 80% of the billboards in the country were used by either the government (with pictures of Orbán and words 'peace' and 'safety'), Fidesz or their propaganda machine friends. It's blatant cheating.
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Online Circa1892

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1141 on: April 4, 2022, 09:57:03 am »
Looks like that from here as well. Fidesz has managed to capture the state in the last 12 years. Only they can reach the poorest in the country through media because their oligarchs bought tv channels and newspapers - these people now live in an alternate reality, Fidesz's. In the poorest regions, Fidesz reached 90%.
In the last month, 80% of the billboards in the country were used by either the government (with pictures of Orbán and words 'peace' and 'safety'), Fidesz or their propaganda machine friends. It's blatant cheating.

Over the next 24 months you can pretty much guarantee pictures of Johnson/Sunak and "levelling up" with regards to literally anything vaguely positive in the UK... if Co-Op open a new store in Bolsover it'll have a billboard next to it. The Orban model is v popular...

Offline Libertine

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1142 on: April 4, 2022, 10:57:15 am »
Utterly depressing.

And sickening that he includes Zelenskyy as one of the enemies he defeated (the list of which, as someone on Twitter pointed out, was pure anti-semitism).

Hungary really needs to be kicked out of the EU somehow. This cannot continue.

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1143 on: April 4, 2022, 11:14:15 am »
Hungary really needs to be kicked out of the EU somehow. This cannot continue.
Lol. We have Orbán and friends in power because it has been convenient for Germany. It might change in the future, but Merkel should share some of the blame for this, too.
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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1144 on: April 4, 2022, 11:15:43 am »
I see his handler has congratulated him. As has Frottage.
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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1145 on: April 4, 2022, 11:42:43 am »
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1146 on: April 4, 2022, 01:14:12 pm »
Lol. We have Orbán and friends in power because it has been convenient for Germany. It might change in the future, but Merkel should share some of the blame for this, too.


 ???
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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1147 on: April 4, 2022, 01:55:22 pm »
Lol. We have Orbán and friends in power because it has been convenient for Germany. It might change in the future, but Merkel should share some of the blame for this, too.

Can you elaborate?

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1148 on: April 4, 2022, 01:57:41 pm »
I might have to move to Portugal.

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1149 on: April 4, 2022, 04:58:26 pm »
Can you elaborate?
It took more than a decade for the European Peoples Party to react to Orbán's absolutely autocratic moves. He started by rewriting the election law and the constitution after winning the 2010 elections by a landslide. From then on it took 12 years for the opposition to react to these new laws, but by now the propaganda machine reached its full potential and it is hard to imagine a future without Fidesz as the ruling party. For example, Fidesz claimed that in case they lost, the opposition would enter the war in  Ukraine, and many people believed this lie.
Also, the wealthiest Hungarian is now a high school classmate of Orbán who was originally a gas fitter. At the same time, Orbán has no wealth.
Fidesz quit the EPP last year before being fired from the group.
I could go on and on and on. You had your Brexit we have our Orbán.
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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1150 on: April 4, 2022, 05:24:22 pm »
It took more than a decade for the European Peoples Party to react to Orbán's absolutely autocratic moves. He started by rewriting the election law and the constitution after winning the 2010 elections by a landslide. From then on it took 12 years for the opposition to react to these new laws, but by now the propaganda machine reached its full potential and it is hard to imagine a future without Fidesz as the ruling party. For example, Fidesz claimed that in case they lost, the opposition would enter the war in  Ukraine, and many people believed this lie.
Also, the wealthiest Hungarian is now a high school classmate of Orbán who was originally a gas fitter. At the same time, Orbán has no wealth.
Fidesz quit the EPP last year before being fired from the group.
I could go on and on and on. You had your Brexit we have our Orbán.


Thanks for your post, which raises interesting points.

But how is Germany behind Orban's rise to power.
A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1151 on: April 4, 2022, 07:31:21 pm »
Some of the polling for the likely second round match-up of the French Presidential election is starting to tighten up between Macron and Le Pen as well, Macron still leading there but there appears to be some tightening there.

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1152 on: April 4, 2022, 08:21:25 pm »
We really do need better news in our collective hope that western democracy isn't eroded.


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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1153 on: April 4, 2022, 08:30:03 pm »
Some of the polling for the likely second round match-up of the French Presidential election is starting to tighten up between Macron and Le Pen as well, Macron still leading there but there appears to be some tightening there.

Getting very tight and worrying.

Pretty depressing that in the current circumstances a Putin apologist like Le Pen is increasing in support. But then I guess she was always going to get the vast majority of Zemmour and Melenchon (fellow apologists) votes in the second round, and a fair chuck of the rump right-wing Les Republicains vote as well. So easy enough to get to 45% or so.

On the plus side, at least there should be no fears about complacency now (which was being talked about a few weeks ago). There is also another couple of weeks campaigning until the second round. And she did perform very poorly in that time (and the debates) in 2017.

Surely the French aren't this dumb? Looked at what the US and UK have done in recent years and thought "we'll have some of that"??

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1154 on: April 4, 2022, 08:51:45 pm »

Thanks for your post, which raises interesting points.

But how is Germany behind Orban's rise to power.

I wasn't talking about his rise to power, but his last 12 years. EPP is the European Peoples Party that has been dominated by the German CDU/CSU since its inception. Should have fired his party in 2016 latest and shouldn't have done business with him since that. BMW's new plant in Debrecen and Mercedes's in Kecskemét has been built since.
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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1155 on: April 5, 2022, 12:18:29 pm »
Getting very tight and worrying.

Pretty depressing that in the current circumstances a Putin apologist like Le Pen is increasing in support. But then I guess she was always going to get the vast majority of Zemmour and Melenchon (fellow apologists) votes in the second round, and a fair chuck of the rump right-wing Les Republicains vote as well. So easy enough to get to 45% or so.

On the plus side, at least there should be no fears about complacency now (which was being talked about a few weeks ago). There is also another couple of weeks campaigning until the second round. And she did perform very poorly in that time (and the debates) in 2017.

Surely the French aren't this dumb? Looked at what the US and UK have done in recent years and thought "we'll have some of that"??

Maybe if your man wasn't so shite, he'd have a bigger lead  ;)

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1156 on: April 5, 2022, 12:36:13 pm »

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1157 on: April 5, 2022, 02:01:54 pm »
I prefer to blame the voters....  ;)

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/apr/02/lower-inflation-better-jobs-in-france-la-vie-est-belle

This has helped of course:  ;)

Quote
In France, where about two-thirds of power comes from Électricité de France’s nuclear plants, the electricity component of inflation has risen by 4% in the past 12 months, but by an average of more than 27% in the eurozone generally.

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1158 on: April 5, 2022, 02:14:38 pm »
This has helped of course:  ;)


Highlights how idiotic (and dogma-laden) the German decision to close its nuclear power stations was.

Support a lot of the policies of the Green Party[ies], but at times their ideological zealotry is counter-productive. In Germany they have been behind the drive to close nuclear PS's, which has made Germany rely on Russian gas. They're also blocking a return of some stations to coal-fired to help reduce dependence on Russian gas.

A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1159 on: April 5, 2022, 02:26:24 pm »
With regards to the French elections, people from across the board there are sick of 'corporate capitalist' economic policies. They see them as benefitting a financial elite above all others. The failed, 'third way', trickle-down myth. Macron has weakened worker protection laws, reduced welfare payments and eligibility, and wants to weaken pension provision whilst raising the retirement age. Many of his policies ape Thatcherism.

I'd never vote for a far-right, racist, neo-Nazi party. Ever. But I can understand why people look for an alternative to someone who wants to economically impoverish people, in ways that history has shown enriches a financial elite of capital-owners.

It's a similar phenomenon to what we have seen in the UK and US. People who are increasingly economically disenfranchised voting against what they perceive as the political orthodoxy.

The reality is, they vote for hard-right/far-right politicians and nationalism when voting for these political groups and outcomes makes life even worse for them.

There needs (IMHO) to be a reset of the socio-econo-political system, to put power and wealth into the hands of the people and not in the hands of corporations, bankers, private equity parasites and billionaires. But voting for far-right politicians and objectives is the wrong way to achieve that.

A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"