Author Topic: Kids and responsibility for damage  (Read 1046 times)

Offline BOBSCOUSE

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Kids and responsibility for damage
« on: June 18, 2022, 09:52:31 pm »
Hi all, wanted to ask a question and see if anyone has experience or advice which I can use to help - if there's any legal expertise able to advise in particular.

I bought a brand new car 7 months ago, currently has 5000 miles on the clock, absolutely immaculate as you would expect of a new car.  A month ago a couple of neighbours brought their 9 and 10 year old kids to my door (one lives right next door, the other opposite) to report damage to my car.  Went out and they showed me the back window was smashed, the kids had been throwing stones over their wall, which is adjacent to my driveway.

One parent offered to split the cost of repair, then left as they had other things to do, the second (neighbour opposite) stayed and helped to clear up the glass. Whilst clearing up they offered to get a quote to pay for the window.  By then I'd noticed a load of stone chips and scratches so I told them I wanted all the damage repaired, walked him around the car and pointed out loads of paintwork issues.  There were stone chips on the glass panelled roof, the front windscreen, scratches and chips to the bonnet, one of the front quarter panels, both rear quarters and the rear boot - it was in a horrendous state.  "I'm not paying for that mate, I'll split the cost for the rear window".  I reminded him it was a brand new car and you wouldn't find that much damage on a car that's done 5k miles, certainly wouldn't get stone chips and scratches to the roof and rear of the car from normal driving.  Told him I'd get it done through the insurance and would expect them to pay my costs.  He agreed this was reasonable, congratulated me for remaining calm - quite simply I'm very placid so never lose my temper outwardly.

I've now got my costs together, £1.5k which is my excess, buses and taxi's while I waited for a courtesy car to become available, one month's payment for my car (been without it for 5 weeks so far so felt it reasonable to claim the instalment), increase in my premiums for next 5 years (just renewed, my insurance has jumped £130 a year as a result) and an amount to cover inconvenience.

The dealership gave me a copy of their workshop costings - the repair value is £7.5k.  Going the insurance route was definitely the right way to go.

Went to see the neighbours today about the £1.5k.  Seems both sets have got their stance agreed between them.  Both said they would only pay my excess and that I was being unreasonable.  Immediate neighbour said "only one stone thrown and then I kicked them out of the garden".  Their child is friendly with my youngest, told her a couple of weeks back that she was really sorry and the two involved had thrown about 10 stones each.  Second set of parents, who had agreed me claiming costs was reasonable, decided to take the line "we could have just taken the kids inside and said nothing, then you would have come out to a smashed window and not known who'd done it".  He actually said this in front of the kids, so basically teaching them that if they ever fuck up they can lie through their teeth and not have to take responsibility for it.  Both kids have been out playing every day since, no punishment dished out whatsoever.

Absolute wankers, I'm fuming inside but don't know how best to take this forward and whether it would be successful.  I did inform the police and get a crime reference number for insurance purposes.  I do still have the glass and stones off the drive in a bucket, also took photo's of the damage on the day.

Any advice please?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2022, 09:56:35 pm by BOBSCOUSE »
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Offline Millie

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Re: Kids and responsibility for damage
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2022, 06:46:20 am »
Isn't that what you pay insurance for?  To insure against accidents?

So you are trying to claim your "uninsured losses" ?    Look I'm no lawyer but if you wanted to take this further surely you would have to prove that the kids caused the extra damage, on top of the rear window that has been admitted.  Even then you would have to justify all your losses are reasonable.  Eg "an amount to cover inconvenience".  I don't think you are getting that for a start.  Don't think you will get the one month instalment for the car either.

Also, these are your neighbours and you have to live next to them.  Do you really want to make them enemies?  Is it worth it?
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Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: Kids and responsibility for damage
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2022, 07:51:10 am »
Take them to a small claims court and let the court decide.

They haven't got a leg to stand on. They'll have to pay the damages and court fees.
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

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Offline Millie

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Re: Kids and responsibility for damage
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2022, 07:58:03 am »
Take them to a small claims court and let the court decide.

They haven't got a leg to stand on. They'll have to pay the damages and court fees.

What?  Sue the kids? 
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Offline Elmo!

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Re: Kids and responsibility for damage
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2022, 08:01:07 am »
Suspect Millie is probably right and the best thing to do long term is take what they are offering, and eat the rest of the costs.

It sucks, but getting on with you neighbours is probably more important in the long run.

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: Kids and responsibility for damage
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2022, 08:23:12 am »
What?  Sue the kids? 

Sue the parents. Obviously.
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline ianburns252

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Re: Kids and responsibility for damage
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2022, 08:25:21 am »
Suspect Millie is probably right and the best thing to do long term is take what they are offering, and eat the rest of the costs.

It sucks, but getting on with you neighbours is probably more important in the long run.

Bollocks to that - these neighbours have already shown themselves to be aresholes so I doubt the relationship is getting repaired any time soon.

What should have been done, which is easy to say with hindsight, is on the day that they came to see you (or a day or so after when you'd had time to write it up) get the photos taken, agree the "covering the costs" approach, and get something in writing confirming that they agree to it. Something as simple as pinging them the pictures on Whatsapp, plus an est of costs, and getting them to just say "yes that is fair" would be more than enough to cover you as an agreement.

I think Andy is right - you will only be able to recover via HMCTS or look into the mediation service that they offer as having a neutral 3rd party would help massively.

I presume you have photos of the damage/could get documentation from the repair garage? Have you kept all your receipts for taxis/bus tickets etc?

Offline Millie

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« Last Edit: June 19, 2022, 08:30:02 am by Millie »
"If you can't say anything nice, don't say nothing at all"  Thumper (1942)

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Re: Kids and responsibility for damage
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2022, 08:26:09 am »
Yep,  other than what they owned up to,  if you want to claim for the rest of the damage,  show proof.  Cctv.  If not,  don't,  regardless of how likely it was the kids.



« Last Edit: June 19, 2022, 08:28:36 am by surfer. Fuck you generator. »

Offline gazzam1963

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Re: Kids and responsibility for damage
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2022, 08:28:46 am »
Not too sure about this but would there house insurance have any sort of personal liability cover , may be worth asking them , says in this article it maybe included in your cover

https://www.hiscox.co.uk/business-insurance/public-liability-insurance/faq/what-is-personal-liability-insurance

Offline Zlen

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Re: Kids and responsibility for damage
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2022, 08:35:51 am »
Suck up the costs. Never speak to any of them again. Money is nothing compared to deleting assholes from your life - which is one of lifes great pleasures.

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: Kids and responsibility for damage
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2022, 09:17:29 am »
It's not that simple.
 
https://www.inbrief.co.uk/child-law/child-accidents-compensation-liability/

Doesn't have to be. Take it to a small claims court and let them sort it out

In most instances, people being wankers would probably reconsider once they are being taken to court.

From what has been said, the parents are absolute wankstains. If I had a kid and they caused this damage then I'd pay for that damage. The fact they haven't done this shows what shithouses they are.
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: Kids and responsibility for damage
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2022, 09:18:22 am »
Suck up the costs. Never speak to any of them again. Money is nothing compared to deleting assholes from your life - which is one of lifes great pleasures.

And when their kids do it again? And again? And again? And Again?
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline Zlen

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Re: Kids and responsibility for damage
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2022, 09:24:30 am »
And when their kids do it again? And again? And again? And Again?

Quietly retaliate obviously.

Offline Millie

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Re: Kids and responsibility for damage
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2022, 09:54:54 am »
Doesn't have to be. Take it to a small claims court and let them sort it out

In most instances, people being wankers would probably reconsider once they are being taken to court.

From what has been said, the parents are absolute wankstains. If I had a kid and they caused this damage then I'd pay for that damage. The fact they haven't done this shows what shithouses they are.

Hang on a minute.   They offered to pay for the damage to the rear window.  The possible claimant then countered that by wanting all damage to the car paying for - without proof that the other damage was caused by the kids.  Just saying it must have been them doesn't make it so.  He is also asking for recompense for stuff he really isn't entitled to.

I do think it may be prudent to ask the neighbours if they have home insurance that covers this sort of thing, and if they do, let them sort it out.

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Re: Kids and responsibility for damage
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2022, 09:55:00 am »
Doesn't have to be. Take it to a small claims court and let them sort it out

In most instances, people being wankers would probably reconsider once they are being taken to court.

From what has been said, the parents are absolute wankstains. If I had a kid and they caused this damage then I'd pay for that damage. The fact they haven't done this shows what shithouses they are.

Have you experience of suing immediate neighbours / escalating a matter to a similar level and then continuing to live in the same house peacefully?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2022, 10:00:27 am by surfer. Fuck you generator. »

Offline Millie

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Re: Kids and responsibility for damage
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2022, 09:56:31 am »
Have you experience of suing immediate neighbours / escalated a matter to a similar level and then continued to live in the same house peacefully?

He obviously hasn't.
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Offline ianburns252

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Re: Kids and responsibility for damage
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2022, 10:01:42 am »
Hang on a minute.   They offered to pay for the damage to the rear window.  The possible claimant then countered that by wanting all damage to the car paying for - without proof that the other damage was caused by the kids.  Just saying it must have been them doesn't make it so.  He is also asking for recompense for stuff he really isn't entitled to.

I do think it may be prudent to ask the neighbours if they have home insurance that covers this sort of thing, and if they do, let them sort it out.

From my experience doing assessment work on these sorts of things - I would suggest that it is common to recover unusual or additional costs as a result of the actions of a 3rd party.

I wouldn't expect the monthly payment on the car to be recoverable as that is a cost that existed regardless but having to get buses and taxis instead is a direct impact of this.

Regarding the damage - it is circumstantial evidence however a reasonable person would reason that the behaviour of those children that lead to the damaged windscreen would also lead to, at the very least, the damage to the roof.


Offline Millie

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Re: Kids and responsibility for damage
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2022, 10:07:16 am »
From my experience doing assessment work on these sorts of things - I would suggest that it is common to recover unusual or additional costs as a result of the actions of a 3rd party.

I wouldn't expect the monthly payment on the car to be recoverable as that is a cost that existed regardless but having to get buses and taxis instead is a direct impact of this.

Regarding the damage - it is circumstantial evidence however a reasonable person would reason that the behaviour of those children that lead to the damaged windscreen would also lead to, at the very least, the damage to the roof.



I didn't say you can't ask for reasonable losses did I? 

I really think he should see if the neighbours have household insurance that covers this sort of thing and get them to sort it out.  I'm still not convinced he can prove the kids caused all the damage to the vehicle.  Also, are the parents actually liable for their kids' actions in this case?

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Re: Kids and responsibility for damage
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2022, 10:08:57 am »
Hang on a minute.   They offered to pay for the damage to the rear window.  The possible claimant then countered that by wanting all damage to the car paying for - without proof that the other damage was caused by the kids.  Just saying it must have been them doesn't make it so.  He is also asking for recompense for stuff he really isn't entitled to.

I do think it may be prudent to ask the neighbours if they have home insurance that covers this sort of thing, and if they do, let them sort it out.



I'm taking your point of view on this. On a 5,000 mile car that is a hell of a lot of damage and the logical conclusion, which has been said by the kids, is that the kids were throwing stone after stone until eventually the window broke. However, its proving this, as the damage should have been pointed out at the time. If it was my car, I'd have checked the entire thing with the parents at the time they came to him, once they have walked away, then there is no proof that any other damage discovered was done at that point.

The parents attitude stinks though, this is why so many people do not take responsibility these days
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Offline ianburns252

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Re: Kids and responsibility for damage
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2022, 10:12:45 am »
I didn't say you can't ask for reasonable losses did I? 

I really think he should see if the neighbours have household insurance that covers this sort of thing and get them to sort it out.  I'm still not convinced he can prove the kids caused all the damage to the vehicle.  Also, are the parents actually liable for their kids' actions in this case?

Sorry - interpreted "stuff he isn't entitled to" to be anything over and above the replacement windscreen.

Think your way is a good idea of trying to meet in the middle. I do believe (assuming these are properly kids) that the parents are liable.

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: Kids and responsibility for damage
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2022, 10:20:29 am »
Have you experience of suing immediate neighbours / escalating a matter to a similar level and then continuing to live in the same house peacefully?

Yup

This exact thing
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline surfer. Fuck you generator.

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Re: Kids and responsibility for damage
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2022, 11:25:19 am »
Yup

This exact thing

You sued people who already offered to pay for the damage,  owned up to nothing else but that specific damage alone,  but you then went ahead and had the whole car looked at and repaired,  then presented them with a bill for around 6 times what they owned up to? And won?  Doubt it's the exact same thing.

Replacing a rear window is around what... 200 -  250,  depending on model. That is the only thing both neighbours admitted to and offered to pay. 

People who own up aren't shithouses,  some on here need to read his post properly, seem to think they offered zero. Bob was clear tbf,  no attempt at tilting it in his favour.

Edit: unless the car was high end,  then you're looking at more than 250 for a back window.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2022, 11:33:38 am by surfer. Fuck you generator. »

Offline BOBSCOUSE

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Re: Kids and responsibility for damage
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2022, 11:41:55 am »
I'm taking your point of view on this. On a 5,000 mile car that is a hell of a lot of damage and the logical conclusion, which has been said by the kids, is that the kids were throwing stone after stone until eventually the window broke. However, its proving this, as the damage should have been pointed out at the time. If it was my car, I'd have checked the entire thing with the parents at the time they came to him, once they have walked away, then there is no proof that any other damage discovered was done at that point.

The parents attitude stinks though, this is why so many people do not take responsibility these days

I did all this at the time.  It is a load of damage to a new car that cost me £40k plus.  The vehicle was immaculate prior to the kids throwing stones, totally clean as you'd expect from having only done 5000 miles.

As far as neighbourly relationships are concerned, couldn't give two hoots, been wanting to move on for almost as long as we've been here and this just increases that desire.  I keep myself to myself but exchange pleasantries if we are outside at the same time.  Next doors daughter is a younger friend to my youngest - for that reason we've spoken to each other a few times.

Not the first time it has happened, just before I traded my old car in for this one the same two kids were larking about lobbing an unopened Coke can and hit the car just below the rear window, caused a dent and the can exploded its contents over the side of the car.  They ran away but later admitted to my daughter what had happened.  No punishment from the parents that time either.

On this occasion the lad walked across home, came back across after grabbing himself a huge bowl of ice-cream and stood eating it standing next to his dad whilst he and I were cleaning the glass - not a word said and the kids have been out every day playing.  If it were my kid a) I'd have paid my slice, taking responsibility for my child's actions and b) they wouldn't have been seen outside of school hours for a month.

You're all giving me food for thought so please continue the discussion.
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Re: Kids and responsibility for damage
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2022, 11:42:08 am »
I bumped into the back if someone in 2017 at about 15mph.
It was the day my daughter was born, and I was driving my mum to the hospital to see her.
The woman I bumped into was from Dublin. Police were dealing with something about 50 yards up the road so they came over to us also. We exchanged details and went on our way.
There was more damage to my car than hers. Hers was a scratch on the back bumper, mine needed a whole new bonnet and some crash bar thing under the bonnet. BMW quoted me over £2k for repairs but I got it sorted for less than £200 all in.
Hers, for a scratch, she wanted €500 for the repair, money for a hire car and a days wages or some shit like that. I contacted the police officer that spoke to us on the side of the road and his advice was to let her go through insurance as she's taking the piss.
I showed images of the damage on her car to a local body repair shop and they estimated £150 and could be done in a couple of hours.
The c*nt wasn't for budging, but crucially I had no choice but to pay what she was asking as my car had no MOT at the time so my insurance would've been invalidated.

Basically, I'd be offering to pay for damage which is beyond doubt caused by my kid. I wouldn't be paying anything other than damage to the car. Certainly wouldn't be adding extra for insurance or inconvenience.
Stone chips can be picked up driving the car out of the show room car park. Unless there is undeniable proof that damage other than the window was caused by my kid, I wouldn't be paying it.
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Re: Kids and responsibility for damage
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2022, 01:52:00 pm »
I did all this at the time.  It is a load of damage to a new car that cost me £40k plus.  The vehicle was immaculate prior to the kids throwing stones, totally clean as you'd expect from having only done 5000 miles.

As far as neighbourly relationships are concerned, couldn't give two hoots, been wanting to move on for almost as long as we've been here and this just increases that desire.  I keep myself to myself but exchange pleasantries if we are outside at the same time.  Next doors daughter is a younger friend to my youngest - for that reason we've spoken to each other a few times.

Not the first time it has happened, just before I traded my old car in for this one the same two kids were larking about lobbing an unopened Coke can and hit the car just below the rear window, caused a dent and the can exploded its contents over the side of the car.  They ran away but later admitted to my daughter what had happened.  No punishment from the parents that time either.

On this occasion the lad walked across home, came back across after grabbing himself a huge bowl of ice-cream and stood eating it standing next to his dad whilst he and I were cleaning the glass - not a word said and the kids have been out every day playing.  If it were my kid a) I'd have paid my slice, taking responsibility for my child's actions and b) they wouldn't have been seen outside of school hours for a month.

You're all giving me food for thought so please continue the discussion.

Then the parents are being utter c*nts and take them for whatever you can.

I'd fucking batter my kids for doing something like that to someones car and they'd be earning the money to pay me back for the outlay for repairing the damages.
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Offline BOBSCOUSE

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Re: Kids and responsibility for damage
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2022, 09:39:24 pm »
Went around the side of the house this evening, saw the other evidence I'd collected and it reminded me that they can't hide behind their lies - kept the bucket of glass and stones that we swept off the driveway around the car.  Stones which are the same type as those in the neighbours back garden.

They haven't heard the last of this.
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Re: Kids and responsibility for damage
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2022, 09:45:03 pm »
What kind of ferals are they raising that launch stones out of their garden?

I was no saint as a kid and did some stupid destructive stuff but this is bizarre. My ma would have given me a good hiding had I done something like this. I know because she gave me a good hiding when I graffitied the wall inside Wavertree Garden when I was about 9.

I’d be doing all I could to recoup all reasonable costs. Days at work, not perhaps reasonable but public transport because of their actions doesn’t seem a massive reach to me.
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Offline J-Mc-

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Re: Kids and responsibility for damage
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2022, 10:03:58 pm »
They’ve owned up to the rear windscreen and offered to cover those costs, you’ve got them on that.

However damage to the front they can argue that that’s general wear and tear from things bouncing up as you’re driving behind another car.

In that case, I would go through small claims.

I used to work for a car insurance company, amount of times you had a 3rd party arguing the toss was ridiculous, even in open and shut cases.

As for the other losses (buses, taxis ect,) check your insurance policy for any legal cover as this is what will cover any incurred costs as a result of you not being able to use your car.

They may not be able to recover the costs for you due to it not being damage caused by another vehicle, but they may offer some advice on the best course of action to take to recover those losses and in some cases, they may have a dedicated legal team that can get things rolling for you.

Offline El Lobo

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Re: Kids and responsibility for damage
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2022, 10:06:54 am »
Yup

This exact thing

:D ;)

So how much were the other costs Bob? If your excess is like £100 or something, I think I'd probably be along the lines of 'you can whistle' if you then asked me for £1500 to cover your costs, depends how it breaks down really. Also think you've got to give a bit of 'credit' for them owning up in the first place. I think transport whilst waiting for your courtesy car is probably fair, but I think asking them to cover a months payment on the car as you haven't had it is probably a bit of a stretch. Its not like you're renting/leasing the car, you're just spreading the cost over how many years. Similarly with the insurance, its an absolute pain in the arse that the premium has gone up but I think its a bit of a stretch that you're calculating how thats going to impact you over the next five years.

I imagine the parents were thinking 'little shits, a broken windshield is gonna cost a few hundred quid which we could do without' and you then coming back with £1500 has probably shocked them a little, which is why their attitude has changed. Also think if you took them to small claims and told them that amount they'd probably laugh at you considering the only proof (well, the only thing they're admitting to) is the broken back window.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.