Topic: A European Super League: The future of football?

[BrandoLFC]

The solution to horrendous inequality isn't to buy into a system that exacerbates and takes advantage of that inequality to screw everyone else over.

I'm not saying LFC are going to be some Robin Hood and we're always caught between trying to maintain the integrity of the club while competing against rivals owned by Oligarchs and Oil Tycoons but basically turning around to all the other clubs and saying "nah, we're too good for you now" is the worst example of arrogance. We've been back in the CL for two years and suddenly we're too good for the rest of the country.

The other reason this format won't work is that teams, clubs, players like winning. At the moment, players can win domestic titles in England, France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Netherlands, Germany etc. Leagues, cups etc. A multitude of ways to earn plaudits, medals, to be remembered.

You bung all those clubs in one competition and suddenly you're in a place where every season, only one club out of Bayern, Real, Barce, Juve, City, us, Atletico, United, Arsenal, Chelsea, Ajax, Porto, PSG, Lyon, Napoli etc etc can win a competition every year. You seriously think that all those clubs would take the risk of going years, maybe decades without meaningful silverware?

The system as it is is ideal in that regard. Big clubs all have a shot at two or three domestic competitions every year to keep the fans happy and engaged, whilst competing for one very prestigious competition in Europe as the pinnacle. The risk inherent in the change would be far too great.

That's why I said in my first post it can't be a closed system.  If this was done the "right way" the pyramid is just extended another level up.  Whether it be 3 or 5 or 10 clubs that get promoted and relegated out of it you then give in every league new life to almost every other team in that they can actually win something.  As you talk about those top 10-20 teams and them not being able to win 2-3 trophies a year, what about those teams that do everything right yet have no shot at winning anything?  Do those fans pay less than you?  Do those fans deserve to get less for what they pay?  I guess what you get to go get shit faced and a night away from the wife and kids or out with the friends so that's all that matters?

[Linudden]

Yeah, I like the way the PL spreads the TV money in the current system. In a global capitalist world, individual TV deals would cause massive inequality, which would ruin the competitive nature of the league. Look at PSG in France. Surely, it’s a bit boring for even their fans with it being so easy for them. Man City have tried to do the same over here. If there was no FFP, you can guarantee they’d have spent far more than they have.

There's also no incentive for any other clubs to even have a go at the transfer market any longer in France, hence Lyon and Marseille shut their own projects down the moment the dirty oil money arrived. I can promise you Lyon and Marseille would've won the title multiple times this decade had not the Qatar disaster that crashed the global transfer market happened. Monaco winning it was just a freak accidents of stars aligning perfectly and got ruined instantly by a Financial Fair Play-violating transfer fee for their best player to pay off the owners' divorce.

[Sheer Magnetism]

The other reason this format won't work is that teams, clubs, players like winning. At the moment, players can win domestic titles in England, France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Netherlands, Germany etc. Leagues, cups etc. A multitude of ways to earn plaudits, medals, to be remembered.

You bung all those clubs in one competition and suddenly you're in a place where every season, only one club out of Bayern, Real, Barce, Juve, City, us, Atletico, United, Arsenal, Chelsea, Ajax, Porto, PSG, Lyon, Napoli etc etc can win a competition every year. You seriously think that all those clubs would take the risk of going years, maybe decades without meaningful silverware?

The system as it is is ideal in that regard. Big clubs all have a shot at two or three domestic competitions every year to keep the fans happy and engaged, whilst competing for one very prestigious competition in Europe as the pinnacle. The risk inherent in the change would be far too great.

Agree with every part of this. Fans currently have the option to watch domestic and European games, on TV or live, and it works. Clubs periodically use this as leverage to get a better deal from their domestic leagues but I can't see how actually going ahead with it would be good for anyone. It definitely wouldn't feel the same for me.

[JerseyKloppite]

Also, Leicester won the league a few years ago. It may well be a freak event, it may not happen again for decades, but it proves that the idea that a few clubs have the league stitched up and that the PL is uncompetitive due to the financial position the top 6 find themselves in is ridiculous. Burnley have a bigger wage budget than most clubs in Europe.

[Linudden]

Also, Leicester won the league a few years ago. It may well be a freak event, it may not happen again for decades, but it proves that the idea that a few clubs have the league stitched up and that the PL is uncompetitive due to the financial position the top 6 find themselves in is ridiculous. Burnley have a bigger wage budget than most clubs in Europe.

QPR were relegated with higher wages than La Liga-winning Atlético or something sick like that, too?

[BrandoLFC]

I read your first comment. It said you think this is a good idea. Because it produces shinier games and we get to play other teams who have lots of money and shiny things in shiny cities? That's not what football is, what you're looking for is entertainment. Go to the movies.

Forest have won it once. Big ears twice though.

The club is doing it's best to grow and be global, because people from outside the UK want to be involved in the club and enjoy the football we play. My eyes are open. That's why we go play in stupid competitions in USA and China pre season at the possible detriment of our pre-season preparation. Money. But we do it because we need the money to compete in this league.

No offense but I think you might need to re-read what I wrote. 

I liken it to a bully we all knew in elementary school and people saying why don't you pick on someone you're own size?  Granted nothing is set in stone but on the whole in most European leagues what you have is a couple of bullies and everybody else.  So I'm speaking of this as if I was a fan of all the non-bullies. 

Not one thing I've wrote is about how this could benefit LFC or me personally because they would move game times but yet you write some bullshit as a shield.  Are you a big Corbyn fan?

[Jake]

I guess what you get to go get shit faced and a night away from the wife and kids or out with the friends so that's all that matters?

Yes the fans are all that matters. Without fans, football is nothing.

[Jake]

No offense but I think you might need to re-read what I wrote. 

I liken it to a bully we all knew in elementary school and people saying why don't you pick on someone you're own size?  Granted nothing is set in stone but on the whole in most European leagues what you have is a couple of bullies and everybody else.  So I'm speaking of this as if I was a fan of all the non-bullies. 

Not one thing I've wrote is about how this could benefit LFC or me personally because they would move game times but yet you write some bullshit as a shield.  Are you a big Corbyn fan?

No offence taken, we have very different opinions is all.

You're likening the club to a bully, saying that we bully other teams and we should stop it? It's called competition. In the last few seasons I'd bet at least half the teams that we've "bullied" have beaten us. Stoke twatted us and then got relegated soon after, Palace beat us at home three years on the spin, its the best league in the world and anyone can beat anyone, and it's been that way with a few minor tweaks for over a century.

If you're a fan of the "non bullies" then go and support them. Come over and go to the games, buy their shirts, and help them compete.

I would be a Corbyn fan if he wasn't such a shithouse on Brexit, but that's not for this thread and is irrelevant. 

[JerseyKloppite]

That's why I said in my first post it can't be a closed system.  If this was done the "right way" the pyramid is just extended another level up.  Whether it be 3 or 5 or 10 clubs that get promoted and relegated out of it you then give in every league new life to almost every other team in that they can actually win something.  As you talk about those top 10-20 teams and them not being able to win 2-3 trophies a year, what about those teams that do everything right yet have no shot at winning anything?  Do those fans pay less than you?  Do those fans deserve to get less for what they pay?  I guess what you get to go get shit faced and a night away from the wife and kids or out with the friends so that's all that matters?

It doesn't work. A pyramid with multiple feeder leagues at this level would be nonsensical. So Everton finish top of the English top flight four years running, but can never "move up" because the bottom three in the European Super League come from Portugal, Holland and Italy every season. Where's the incentive? It's patently unfair and it would rob all value from the English top flight to take its best clubs and players away.

You also equate supporting a football club with winning things. Fans don't go to Fulham every week because they expect them to win the title.  However Leicester did win the league so your point about clubs having "no chance even if they do everything right" has been proven wrong very publicly. Wigan won the FA Cup a few years ago, and Portsmouth a few years before that. It's rare, but it does happen, and means all the more for being achieved despite competition with "big clubs". So, as regards all the "lowly" teams, its patronising to take that view. You take the best clubs away and winning the premier league becomes the equivalent of winning the Championship. It's a nice achievement but you've robbed them of the chance of a much more significant one.


You also misunderstand my point re silverware, which was that, conversely to the above, fans of the "top" clubs all have expectations, and hopes, of their team winning silverware. City fans will be disappointed if they don't win the league in a way that fans of Southampton won't be. The ownership of the clubs target it. In the current system, they have a good chance at attaining it. In your new system, most "top" clubs will go years and years without winning anything. That puts them in a worse place regarding satisfying their "fans" who will be buying into this new "product".

It's a lose-lose-lose:

- Clubs outside of the pool lose revenue because the top clubs have left their league and advertising/TV money with them. Their league also lose its significance as it becomes a feeder league which they might not even be able to escape from even if they win it.

- Big clubs who get the go ahead to join this huge competition face overwhelming odds against winning it or anything else and so go years without winning anything.

- Fans lose their club even more than they already have as they become soulless vehicles for profit.

The only people who win in the situation are the owners of clubs who would rake in more money.

Also, "I guess what you get to go get shit faced and a night away from the wife and kids or out with the friends so that's all that matters?" Seriously, I am guessing you've never been to a Liverpool game? You don't seem to understand why people go to the match. I don't only go to Liverpool games because I want to see them win the league. If I did I'd have probably stopped years ago or asked myself serious questions about how I spend my money.

[JerseyKloppite]

Keep the personal stuff out.

[Jake]

And what have I said that disagrees with you?  I even said in my first post that the clubs make so much money now they should subsidize the fans.  But hey I'm a fucking ignorant Yank that thinks the Queen should go fuck herself and soccer is for panzies even though I'm getting up at 4:30am to watch this shit.  Ok then...

You literally just said, and I quoted, in a sarcastic manner that a fan going and "getting shit faced and getting away from the wife" is all that matters. Do you want me to take annual leave to go watch us 19 times in Moscow, Tel Aviv, Dortmund, Madrid etc?

You denigriated the fan's experience and suggested it was not as important as the entertaining specatcle you desire. You also suggest that the club should pay it's fans to travel and watch it? Like when La Liga was going to move a game to USA?

And I didn't say you were an ignorant Yank who thinks the Queen should fuck herself and soccer is for pansies (s, not z) even though you wake up at 4.30am to watch this shit.

I think you're well intentioned but ultimately ill-informed and see this beautiful tribal sport as an entertainment platform. I don't know your views on Liz.

[afc tukrish]

So Everton finish top of the English top flight four years running, but can never "move up..."

Hypothetically qualifying without qualifying?

[JerseyKloppite]

Hypothetically qualifying without qualifying?

The most Everton of outcomes

[BrandoLFC]

No offence taken, we have very different opinions is all.

You're likening the club to a bully, saying that we bully other teams and we should stop it? It's called competition. In the last few seasons I'd bet at least half the teams that we've "bullied" have beaten us. Stoke twatted us and then got relegated soon after, Palace beat us at home three years on the spin, its the best league in the world and anyone can beat anyone, and it's been that way with a few minor tweaks for over a century.

If you're a fan of the "non bullies" then go and support them. Come over and go to the games, buy their shirts, and help them compete.

I would be a Corbyn fan if he wasn't such a shithouse on Brexit, but that's not for this thread and is irrelevant.

It's understandable that on an LFC forum this would be LFC focused.  I do think England has a reasonable argument to not do this in that there are 4-6 teams that can compete.  Whereas it's 1 maybe 2 in the rest of Europe.  So again if you read what I wrote it's about the FANS of other teams that I'm thinking about.  Not LFC bullying other people though again that's what the club is building towards whether you want to agree with it or not.

And again in my first post I clearly stated I think they'll fuck this up in that greed will trump all else.

[Peabee]

There’s nothing wrong with the current system. Domestic leagues, and cups, together with two European club competitions. The only thing that maybe could change is standardising the seasons/rules of the top European leagues. Same number of teams, same number of games, same breaks, same start/end dates and same transfer windows. (Don’t the Spanish and French leagues currently allow their CL teams to play on a Friday if they’re playing on a Tuesday?)

If they want extra money for top clubs, the leagues could allow pay-per-view for games, which they share with the TV Co (eg Sky) and the club/PL. There’s certain games I’d definitely pay to watch, but I don’t subscribe for games because I’d have to fork out for both BT and Sky subs that I’d only use for Liverpool games... there needs to be a better model for those of us who don’t want the other stuff on those channels.

[Indomitable_Carp]

The second a Super League comes in, I'm out.

If it happens, I'm done. It smacks of bullshit to sell the game to USA and China, and it can fuck off. If they don't like our sport they can make their fucking own.

I'd rather get relegated than play in a super league bollocks.

Absolutely this.

[JerseyKloppite]

It's understandable that on an LFC forum this would be LFC focused.  I do think England has a reasonable argument to not do this in that there are 4-6 teams that can compete.  Whereas it's 1 maybe 2 in the rest of Europe.  So again if you read what I wrote it's about the FANS of other teams that I'm thinking about.  Not LFC bullying other people though again that's what the club is building towards whether you want to agree with it or not.

And again in my first post I clearly stated I think they'll fuck this up in that greed will trump all else.

If you ask the fans of every club in England whether they would prefer to keep the status quo or introduce a Super League, I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority would want to keep the system as it is. The history of the competition, the rivalries, the connection with clubs is important. Spurs have achieved an awful lot by gradually working their way into this top 6 against teams with more historical pedigree (us, United, Arsenal) and more money (City, Chelsea). 10 years ago maybe they like the idea of being a big fish in a small pond, now it be a disaster for them.

There really isn't any benefit to being a fan of West Ham and winning a league which has had the best clubs removed from it, taking with them the best players. In fact, as I said, just the opposite - the money would fall out of the league, players wouldn't be half as interested, and the immense money involved in the "Super League" would mean that it would become a self-perpetuating cycle. Can you imagine what would happen if, after 5 years of huge revenues, Arsenal were relegated back to the English "top division", suddenly competing with Aston Villa, Sunderland and Stoke? They'd have a squad and spending power that would give them a vast superiority with no competition.

It's a system that might work in some places, but not in England. The better solution would be to try to stop clubs like City and PSG financially doping their way to success.

[Black Bull Nova]

Soon as it happens (which it is because that’s where footballs been going since mid 90’s) I’m done

Me too, it would bore the arse off me to have to watch PSG v Barca, real v Juve, City v Inter all the time.

It's the rarity of these games that make them special. Rangers v Celtic has meant a lot less since they started playing each other 4 times a year plus cup finals

[Jake]

It's understandable that on an LFC forum this would be LFC focused.  I do think England has a reasonable argument to not do this in that there are 4-6 teams that can compete.  Whereas it's 1 maybe 2 in the rest of Europe.  So again if you read what I wrote it's about the FANS of other teams that I'm thinking about.  Not LFC bullying other people though again that's what the club is building towards whether you want to agree with it or not.

And again in my first post I clearly stated I think they'll fuck this up in that greed will trump all else.

France, yep PSG fucked that. The solution isn't to reward PSG with playing other big boys every week, it's to punish PSG for breaking FFP and fucking it up for the rest of the country. But UEFA don't have the bollocks.

Germany, yes Bayern are the best but Dortmund have won it a few times and others too. RB are trying to break into that too.

Spain has the obvious duopoly but Atleti have managed to work their way in, as had Valencia with Rafa in charge.

Italy is going through a bit of a Juve dominated period. But Roma are decent, the Milans have won it in recent memory, and others could nip at their toes too.

Then when these teams are removed, what's going to happen? The best players and best teams have been taken away, leaving the paupers to fight over the scraps? They money will all go and leave a poorer "product" for the rest of the fans. Weirdly I almost think there would be a bit of enjoyment to going back to the days where you could knock on your star players door whilst he was having his tea and ask for his autograph but lets be real we're not at those days any more.

And going back to the most important point, the fans. Loyal men and women who have followed their team up to 38 times a year for the past god knows how many years now have to take 19 foreign holidays a year to continue their support? It does not work.

What of the domestic cups? Do we still compete in the FA Cup? When do we get to play all the "little" teams and when do they get the excitement of coming to Anfield? Only if they win the Leftovers League? Then their reward is to have to take a score of foreign holidays and get panned 38 times?

It does not work.

[Black Bull Nova]

The better solution would be to try to stop clubs like City and PSG financially doping their way to success.

Yup, Rugby League has a salary cap (probably whole squads earning less than Aaron 'not so special' Ramsey)

I'll bet no-one knows who'll end up with the prizes this year, Saints, Wigan, Leeds, Warrington, Castleford, Hull, Catalans, Huddersfield have all competed for trophies in recent seasons

(players are not cheating bastards⁽¹⁾ either for that matter)

⁽¹⁾ "Neymars"

[BrandoLFC]

It doesn't work. A pyramid with multiple feeder leagues at this level would be nonsensical. So Everton finish top of the English top flight four years running, but can never "move up" because the bottom three in the European Super League come from Portugal, Holland and Italy every season. Where's the incentive? It's patently unfair and it would rob all value from the English top flight to take its best clubs and players away.

You also equate supporting a football club with winning things. Fans don't go to Fulham every week because they expect them to win the title.  However Leicester did win the league so your point about clubs having "no chance even if they do everything right" has been proven wrong very publicly. Wigan won the FA Cup a few years ago, and Portsmouth a few years before that. It's rare, but it does happen, and means all the more for being achieved despite competition with "big clubs". So, as regards all the "lowly" teams, its patronising to take that view. You take the best clubs away and winning the premier league becomes the equivalent of winning the Championship. It's a nice achievement but you've robbed them of the chance of a much more significant one.


You also misunderstand my point re silverware, which was that, conversely to the above, fans of the "top" clubs all have expectations, and hopes, of their team winning silverware. City fans will be disappointed if they don't win the league in a way that fans of Southampton won't be. The ownership of the clubs target it. In the current system, they have a good chance at attaining it. In your new system, most "top" clubs will go years and years without winning anything. That puts them in a worse place regarding satisfying their "fans" who will be buying into this new "product".

It's a lose-lose-lose:

- Clubs outside of the pool lose revenue because the top clubs have left their league and advertising/TV money with them. Their league also lose its significance as it becomes a feeder league which they might not even be able to escape from even if they win it.

- Big clubs who get the go ahead to join this huge competition face overwhelming odds against winning it or anything else and so go years without winning anything.

- Fans lose their club even more than they already have as they become soulless vehicles for profit.

The only people who win in the situation are the owners of clubs who would rake in more money.

Also, "I guess what you get to go get shit faced and a night away from the wife and kids or out with the friends so that's all that matters?" Seriously, I am guessing you've never been to a Liverpool game? You don't seem to understand why people go to the match. I don't only go to Liverpool games because I want to see them win the league. If I did I'd have probably stopped years ago or asked myself serious questions about how I spend my money.

Let me get this out of the way from the start, I don't have all the answers and I'm not being paid to have them.  So you're going to bring up all these issues and I'll give my opinion but I really can't answer them nor would I expect you to be able to either.

LFC has won something and every year has a chance to win something and it's only our own ineptitude or bad choices or bad play that prevents it for almost 50 years now.  How can you say you know how that feels to a Fulham fan or a fan of a club that doesn't have that when you aren't a fan of that club that makes that choice?  So for the majority of fans of other teams that's what I equate it to, a night out with friends and hopefully a good game to create memories of it is an issue as that's all I can figure since it's not the same?  My experience at Anfield has nothing to do with that.

I equate supporting any team in any sport as if they do the right things and invest the right way there will be some kind of reward, potentially, at the end.  And again Leicester is a great example and what brought me around to this point of view in that they had a 1 in a million season and won it.  Now they've reinvested that windfall to do what exactly?

[JerseyKloppite]

The only way a European “Super League” happens is if they scrap the Champions League and run an elite division in parallel to domestic leagues.

If a club gets to the final of the CL/EL now they play approx 13-15 fixtures. In this system you have two divisions of 16 teams who play each other once a season (with Home/Away games alternating every season like the Six Nations). You have relegation/promotion between the two divisions of say four clubs. You lose the likes of Barcelona v Rosenberg or Bayern v Qarabag and instead every match is between “big clubs”. Cap it at 4 teams per country and seed it. And to ensure it’s not a closed shop, every year the lowest ranked team from each country involved has to play the highest ranked team from their domestic league for their place.

You get your super league without losing involvement in domestic leagues, clubs get more “big games” and more revenue. The big losers in this situation are smaller countries who probably wouldn’t ever get a team into this structure.

I wouldn’t like it and it would smack of money grabbing but preferable to some breakaway or new “top tier”.

[Peabee]

The only way a European “Super League” happens is if they scrap the Champions League and run an elite division in parallel to domestic leagues.

If a club gets to the final of the CL/EL now they play approx 13-15 fixtures. In this system you have two divisions of 16 teams who play each other once a season (with Home/Away games alternating every season like the Six Nations). You have relegation/promotion between the two divisions of say four clubs. You lose the likes of Barcelona v Rosenberg or Bayern v Qarabag and instead every match is between “big clubs”. Cap it at 4 teams per country and seed it. And to ensure it’s not a closed shop, every year the lowest ranked team from each country involved has to play the highest ranked team from their domestic league for their place.

You get your super league without losing involvement in domestic leagues, clubs get more “big games” and more revenue. The big losers in this situation are smaller countries who probably wouldn’t ever get a team into this structure.

I wouldn’t like it and it would smack of money grabbing but preferable to some breakaway or new “top tier”.

The worry is that they’d eventually want home AND away games, so why not three divisions of 10 with home and away fixtures, which amounts to 18 games. That’s two midweek games a month across 9 months.

[JerseyKloppite]

Let me get this out of the way from the start, I don't have all the answers and I'm not being paid to have them.  So you're going to bring up all these issues and I'll give my opinion but I really can't answer them nor would I expect you to be able to either.

LFC has won something and every year has a chance to win something and it's only our own ineptitude or bad choices or bad play that prevents it for almost 50 years now.  How can you say you know how that feels to a Fulham fan or a fan of a club that doesn't have that when you aren't a fan of that club that makes that choice?  So for the majority of fans of other teams that's what I equate it to, a night out with friends and hopefully a good game to create memories of it is an issue as that's all I can figure since it's not the same?  My experience at Anfield has nothing to do with that.

I equate supporting any team in any sport as if they do the right things and invest the right way there will be some kind of reward, potentially, at the end.  And again Leicester is a great example and what brought me around to this point of view in that they had a 1 in a million season and won it.  Now they've reinvested that windfall to do what exactly?

I’m going to sleep because it’s late here but, briefly:

1) I don’t understand what you mean by saying we’ve not won anything for 50 years? It’s been 30 or so since the last league title, and we won major silverware about a decade ago. We’ve been in major finals for the last few years too. We’re currently “competitive.” Most of the fans who supported us and went to the games when we were winning in the 80s didn’t dessert the club in the 90s when we became less successful. Anfield sells out most weeks now and we’ve only won one league cup in a decade.

2) I don’t speak “for” fans of other clubs, but I have friends who support a variety of teams. Everyone over here hates the Super League idea. That may seem odd if you’re trying to look at it from an external/objective perspective but it’s very much the case. It’s never got any traction and it’s unpopular in England. Fans of “smaller” clubs dislike the arrogance of the top sides going away to play their own competition and taking the money and prestige with them. Fans of “bigger” clubs dislike it for its attack on the traditions of the English league system and domestic competitions, as well as seeing it for what it is (an exercise in earning even more money).

3) For most people going to the match is about enjoying time with friends and family and supporting your club, ideally through thick and thin. If there’s silverware at the end of it, so much the better. But it it’s not at the heart of why fans stick with their clubs for the most part, or the vast majority of football supporters in England are oddly masochistic. I don’t support Liverpool for a “reward”, or for the potential of a reward. I support Liverpool because I always have and to a large extent because of the community of the fans. If we win trophies it’s a happy bonus.

4) For Leicester fans, winning the title was an incredible, unbelievable experience, a phenomenal achievement earned against all the odds. You take away the most competitive sides and it loses most of its significance. “Wow, we beat Everton, West Ham and Wolves to the league” doesn’t quite have the same ring to it. They then might get promoted to some league they could never win because it contains the 20 richest clubs in Europe, and you’re back to square one - fans of an English team in a competition they can’t prevail in due to disparities in terms of scale and finances with the other clubs.

[Suareznumber7]

Me too, it would bore the arse off me to have to watch PSG v Barca, real v Juve, City v Inter all the time.

Without getting into the super league debate, how anyone can say that those games would be boring is beyond me.  The tactical changes that these teams would bring in every game would be fascinating and it would bring football to another level.  What bores the arse off me is watching us play week in, week out, against teams that don’t move out of their own half.  The majority of our games are glorified training sessions because everyone is so afraid of losing and dropping out of the PL jackpot places.  Give me top quality games every day of the week. 

[Cu Chulainn]

Without getting into the super league debate, how anyone can say that those games would be boring is beyond me.  The tactical changes that these teams would bring in every game would be fascinating and it would bring football to another level.  What bores the arse off me is watching us play week in, week out, against teams that don’t move out of their own half.  The majority of our games are glorified training sessions because everyone is so afraid of losing and dropping out of the PL jackpot places.  Give me top quality games every day of the week.

"The majority of our games are glorified training sessions" - ?  That's incredibly arrogant, not to mention untrue.

What's wrong with teams being defence-first, anyway? It's a legitimate tactic and we've had defensive-oriented managers in the recent past (Houllier and Rafa). Kenny went defensive in some games too, and even Klopp has adopted a defensive approach in some games and periods of games while he's been here. If it's okay for us to do that, why not Huddersfield or Cardiff?

Besides, top clubs playing each other is no guarantee teams won't be defensive in those games. You'll still have favourites and underdogs in games, and games certain teams will look at and think a point is a decent result.

[Suareznumber7]

"The majority of our games are glorified training sessions" - ?  That's incredibly arrogant, not to mention untrue.

What's wrong with teams being defence-first, anyway? It's a legitimate tactic and we've had defensive-oriented managers in the recent past (Houllier and Rafa). Kenny went defensive in some games too, and even Klopp has adopted a defensive approach in some games and periods of games while he's been here. If it's okay for us to do that, why not Huddersfield or Cardiff?

Besides, top clubs playing each other is no guarantee teams won't be defensive in those games. You'll still have favourites and underdogs in games, and games certain teams will look at and think a point is a decent result.

There's a difference between defensive orientated managers and what we see happening on a weekly basis in the league.  You can be a defensive orientated manager and still set your team up to try and win. 

[Nessy76]

I'd much rather see expatriated clubs than that.

Celtic and Rangers in England.
Benfica, Porto and Sporting in Spain.
Basel, Ajax, Feyenoord and PSV in Germany....

than that nonsense 

If it means actually detaching completely from a domestic league, we absolutely shouldn't be in it. I'd rather win the PL without the other big clubs every year and lift the big ears than have to play all foreign clubs twice a season and only have one competition to play in with a ridiculous SuperBowl at Wembley each May with no FFP rules even pretending to exist so that Man City can spend £1 billion on any starlet. Hell no.

Ourselves, United and Arsenal could do with allowing Chelsea and City to leave for such crap though. Us three can run the Premier League ourselves and it'd work just fine as they (Chelsea and City) tried to get their already apathetic fans to fly to Rome or Milan every other weekend.

Yes, I think league consolidation is marginally more likely than a super league. The talks about a joint Belgian-Netherlands league didn't get anywhere last time, but it feels like a more organic way to move forwards. Personally, I would love to see a pathway to the Premier League from Scotland (and further afield, why not a Dublin club?) and a Spanish-Portuguese league. Just means that the CL in whatever format will take clubs from the big leagues, but make the big leagues more accessible. Wins all round.

Can also understand people who want things to stay the same, but nothing does forever, so choose the future you prefer.

A fixed Super League with permanent places would be an abomination.

[Cu Chulainn]

There's a difference between defensive orientated managers and what we see happening on a weekly basis in the league.  You can be a defensive orientated manager and still set your team up to try and win.

I think you're judging the whole league by what happens against Liverpool. Yes, most teams do play defensively against Liverpool because we're quite good, they want to get points, and we don't let them have much of the ball. Even then though, most teams pose a threat and attack when they can. I bet that's no different in other leagues either; I doubt Augsburg play an open game against Bayern for instance. And in a European Super League teams will still be defensive. Atletico for example have been very successful by suffocating games.

Anyway, the teams outside the top 6 - especially those in the bottom half - don't "park the bus" against each other. There's plenty of high scoring and dramatic games. Lots of shambolic defending too.

[Alan_X]

So the teams that are in it and who will become richer for it should get to still beat up on teams domestically who don't get that financial windfall and are already at a massive financial disadvantage?

This is going to happen eventually and I think it would be net positive if done well.  The biggest thing for me is that there is still a pro/rel element to it.  If say At. Madrid or Spurs were to start out in it then they would need to actually perform or lose their spot, same as any other team in any other league.  Losing every game and becoming richer for doing so would make a mockery of the whole thing.

But ultimately I think this needs to happen so that the fans of almost every other team sans the top 20 richest teams in the world actually have something they can aspire to again.  Nowadays if you're a fan of Lyon or Valencia or Bayer Leverkusen what exactly is a successful season?  What can you realistically win?  Almost nothing.

I noted in the match day thread for this past weekend that Leicester have done an amazing job of turning over their squad and look like they are really building something.  They're making really smart moves with their money and have some real talent on hand.  What's their best case scenario?  They sell them all and start all over again?  What's even the point?  Their title win in 15/16 is the exception, not the rule.  And to think that everything will break their way again is from an odds perspective a pipe dream as Maddison, Barnes, Ndidi, etc will be long gone by the time they hit their peak.

From there it's all about sorting out the issues for the fans that have to travel much farther to away games.  These clubs are making so much money now that they could figure out a way to subsidize that if they wanted and that would be the hope.

Anyway, I'm sure it will be ruined by the owners greed but it could be a great thing for the sport and give renewal to a lot of teams that sorely need it.

Bollocks.  It will do fuck all for the 'other clubs' and will be a fucking disaster for the real fans of the clubs involved. 

If you think the clubs are going to subsidise flights and accommodation for 3-4,000 fans every other week you're deluded. Especially as you're talking about major cities in each country. Regular fans will be priced out by corporate packages for the 'Euro-Super-Duper League Experience' with flights and city-breaks included.

And your shitty attitude towards clubs like Leicester and their fans stinks mate. 'What's the point' of any clubs apart from the super rich? You really have no fucking idea do you? I can only assume you've never been to a match and certainly never had a chat with supporters of any of those 'what's the point' clubs.

I had a lovely time before the West Ham game having a drink and a laugh with a load of West Ham fans - they didn't expect to win or even draw but the same group of them go every other week to the homes and a fair few to the aways. For you it's 'pointless' but for them it's about friendship, community, tradition and enjoying watching football.

[CornerFlag]

I'll direct you to my thoughts from the original thread that came up last year

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=341434

Hope it dies a quick, sudden death if it were to happen. I'd just concentrate on a local non-league team and fuck us off if this happened, just no to all this shit.

[Cu Chulainn]

And your shitty attitude towards clubs like Leicester and their fans stinks mate. 'What's the point' of any clubs apart from the super rich? You really have no fucking idea do you? I can only assume you've never been to a match and certainly never had a chat with supporters of any of those 'what's the point' clubs.

I had a lovely time before the West Ham game having a drink and a laugh with a load of West Ham fans - they didn't expect to win or even draw but the same group of them go every other week to the homes and a fair few to the aways. For you it's 'pointless' but for them it's about friendship, community, tradition and enjoying watching football.

That's why I hate seeing smaller clubs referred to as "pointless", "nothing clubs". It's super arrogant, and also assumes the only purpose of football is winning. It's not. As you say, it's about tradition, community, the local area, the simple joy of competition, and so on.

[dimwit]

I'm all for this now,
sorry for not seeing the light in that thread from last year.

I have few suggestions though.

The clubs should be divided into two conferences, and those conferences into divisions.
During the season, you'd play more against those within your division, but still play everyone atleast once during the season.
Oh, and playoffs should be intoduced. Best out of seven? Anyone?

They'd need more games to sell though, so a restrucure of the schedule is due.
2-3 games a week should do it, adding up to 82 games a season before playoffs. Training's for pussies anyway. Overrated.
Imagine all those new records that medi.. *ahem* fans could bang about.

Next step obviously should be to scrap the youth teams, they don't bring any money in anyway.
Let the lesser teams train the players.
A draft system will prove to be more cost effecient way to bring young talent into the team.

And before I forget, Fuck Bosman!
No player could leave on a free before their 27th birthday.
If a player is traded, he just shuts up and goes to where ever he's been traded to.

And most importantly, should be a closed league. No relegations.
That would jeopardise the projected profits of the franchise.

Personally I think it should be called CDSL*, or whatever the sponsor wants. Like "Dubai Superleague of Superstars"

Cheers


*CommerciallyDrivenSoccerLeague

[deFacto please, you bastards]

I don't like elitism, in any aspect in life, and that includes football. So the European Super League can sincerely fuck off.

[Suareznumber7]

I think you're judging the whole league by what happens against Liverpool. Yes, most teams do play defensively against Liverpool because we're quite good, they want to get points, and we don't let them have much of the ball. Even then though, most teams pose a threat and attack when they can. I bet that's no different in other leagues either; I doubt Augsburg play an open game against Bayern for instance. And in a European Super League teams will still be defensive. Atletico for example have been very successful by suffocating games.

Anyway, the teams outside the top 6 - especially those in the bottom half - don't "park the bus" against each other. There's plenty of high scoring and dramatic games. Lots of shambolic defending too.

You got that one wrong. 

[dimwit]

I'm all for this now, -snip

How could i have forgotten the starplayer breaks?
Now some of you think that is just a bulls hitting a name for a commercial break, and you would be right.

It was pushed through in hockey, started with one in 20, and now is two breaks in 20 min period.

So get ready for atleast 2 commercialbreaks in each half.

Sorry, meant to say playerbreaks, so the fans can see their stars in better shape....

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

The match threads for the general league these days usually end up being a parade of clubs being 'horrific', 'pointless', their players 'yard dogs' if results don't go our way, which probably has a part to play in them getting referred to as pointless now.

It's horrific. No club is pointless, just because we have money, the manager and the squad these days doesn't mean you forget the number of years Liverpool were 'pointless' themselves.

It's sincerely an exciting time to watch the league, you generally have a better quality of manager for the clubs outside the top 6 than there used to be, the games tend to be good watches tactically, good players, more focus on technique than kicking the other guy out of the game. A few posters on here calling everything horrific and everyone else lacking the balls / not worth the hassle to be fair to confront them about it doesn't change anything.

It's the kind of papier mache, artificial edifice right down the alley of the owners of PSG and City, they seriously overestimate the attraction of the games between big sides if it becomes a regular thing. To be fair, even Liverpool's owners seem to entertain the idea, wasn't there some fuss when Ian Ayre was involved in scheming for it some years back.

[Cu Chulainn]

You got that one wrong.

Ha, I didn't even know they were playing! Just picked a weak German team.  Just looked at the stats for that game and they are very similar to our recent game vs Palace, yet Palace got slaughtered for "parking the bus".

The match threads for the general league these days usually end up being a parade of clubs being 'horrific', 'pointless', their players 'yard dogs' if results don't go our way, which probably has a part to play in them getting referred to as pointless now.

It's horrific. No club is pointless, just because we have money, the manager and the squad these days doesn't mean you forget the number of years Liverpool were 'pointless' themselves.

This, this, and 1000 times this.

[harleydanger]

We have a super league, the CL. I’m not sure why anyone would even consider this a good idea except the people who would make money off it. And that’s all it is, a way for people already skimming tens of millions off the game to skim some more.

I don’t know about you people, but agents making up to 30m to organise a single transfer while most kids play on pitches more akin to a broken up glacier than a flat surface doesn’t really sit right with me.

[afc tukrish]

I dunno, but the only people I'm seeing defending the idea of this are from USA. Maybe it's a cultural thing that the idea of a Super League appeals to them?

Personally think it's a load of shite, but thankfully Rangers and Celtic aren't good enough to be considered for this nonsense.

It's possible to be from the USA and think the idea of a Super League should be given shorter consideration than the length of Pickford's arms...