Author Topic: Chasing the Title  (Read 1192014 times)

Online newterp

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16880 on: May 19, 2019, 12:29:56 am »
The CL is unquestionably a ridiculously hard competition to win, to get to the final of even, and that’s shown by the amount of times very very very good league sides have got nowhere near the final.

You can sometimes be a good cup side, or get a good run, but to do it twice on the bounce is only the sign of one thing: you’re a fucking boss side.

According to Pep today - shockingly - the CL isn’t that hard to win.

http://www.espn.com/soccer/manchester-city/story/3856779/pep-man-citys-treble-harder-than-champions-league
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 01:02:08 am by newterp »

Offline dimwit

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16881 on: May 19, 2019, 12:32:29 am »
According to Pep today - shockingly - the CL isn’t that hard to win.

And that's why he's won it at Bayern and City.

 ;D

Offline daggerdoo

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16882 on: May 19, 2019, 12:48:11 am »
It's a silly thing to imply and he's not coming across too well with those quotes.

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16883 on: May 19, 2019, 04:30:37 am »
City have had more than their fair share of fortune in the league this season.

So have we really. You need it to get 95+ points.
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Offline Clayton Bigsby

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16884 on: May 19, 2019, 05:19:42 am »
According to Pep today - shockingly - the CL isn’t that hard to win.

http://www.espn.com/soccer/manchester-city/story/3856779/pep-man-citys-treble-harder-than-champions-league

That's not at all what he said.

He said it's harder to do the domestic treble then it is to win the Champions League.

If you want to dispute that that is fine, it's all opinions after all

Offline Clayton Bigsby

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16885 on: May 19, 2019, 05:38:04 am »
Real Madrid have 4 titles in last 6 years and only 1 league win in that same time period. When Pep was asked for team of decade he said he couldn't pick Madrid because of lack of league titles.

He could just be being bitter or it could just be his beliefs

Offline farawayred

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16886 on: May 19, 2019, 08:17:49 am »
According to Pep today - shockingly - the CL isn’t that hard to win.

http://www.espn.com/soccer/manchester-city/story/3856779/pep-man-citys-treble-harder-than-champions-league
In fairness, that’s not what he had said. He compared the treble vs the CL. And for that he’s right. How many teams have won a treble, any treble, and how many times? We ourselves have 5 (soon to be 6) Big Years, and how many trebles? Same with United. City didn’t have enough history of being strong to make the statistics.
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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16887 on: May 19, 2019, 09:22:23 am »
In fairness? Nah - let's enjoy the grumpy defensive vibe he's giving out. It's the one chink in their financially-doped armour.

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16888 on: May 19, 2019, 09:57:03 am »
In fairness, that’s not what he had said. He compared the treble vs the CL. And for that he’s right. How many teams have won a treble, any treble, and how many times? We ourselves have 5 (soon to be 6) Big Years, and how many trebles? Same with United. City didn’t have enough history of being strong to make the statistics.

To be fair though, the Carling Cup tends to be the cup teams rotate dor, especially if they're going after the Champions league.
Winning the league is tough, but for them to win the domestic cups they faced the easiest set of fixtures you can imagine. I think bar Chelsea, every other team was an incredibly easy matchup.

They were very fortunate with their cup runs.
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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16889 on: May 19, 2019, 11:30:01 am »
To be fair though, the Carling Cup tends to be the cup teams rotate dor, especially if they're going after the Champions league.
Winning the league is tough, but for them to win the domestic cups they faced the easiest set of fixtures you can imagine. I think bar Chelsea, every other team was an incredibly easy matchup.

They were very fortunate with their cup runs.

They were but I wouldn't fancy Leicester or Burnley away too much with our second-string side.

This is why it's jarring to hear that our team is supposedly 'complete'. We throw the cup competitions most seasons whilst City are churning them out on a regular basis.

Online newterp

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16890 on: May 19, 2019, 11:33:15 am »
That's not at all what he said.

He said it's harder to do the domestic treble then it is to win the Champions League.

If you want to dispute that that is fine, it's all opinions after all

In fairness, that’s not what he had said. He compared the treble vs the CL. And for that he’s right. How many teams have won a treble, any treble, and how many times? We ourselves have 5 (soon to be 6) Big Years, and how many trebles? Same with United. City didn’t have enough history of being strong to make the statistics.


no one said it wasn't harder to win the domestic treble - but because he's so insecure he needed to bring it up and try to devalue the CL. 

Because Liverpool is in his head big time.

Offline Kenny Red

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16891 on: May 19, 2019, 12:40:27 pm »

no one said it wasn't harder to win the domestic treble - but because he's so insecure he needed to bring it up and try to devalue the CL. 

Because Liverpool is in his head big time.

LFC are in MCFC's head big time never mind Pep's without even trying. They seem more preoccupied with what we're doing than themselves. And I'm fucking loving it.
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Offline Bird Bird Bird The Bird Is The Word

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16892 on: May 19, 2019, 12:54:21 pm »
After we spank City in the Community Shield...

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/f9nY-B3ChCU" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/f9nY-B3ChCU</a>

Offline Peabee

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16893 on: May 19, 2019, 01:05:52 pm »
In fairness, that’s not what he had said. He compared the treble vs the CL. And for that he’s right. How many teams have won a treble, any treble, and how many times? We ourselves have 5 (soon to be 6) Big Years, and how many trebles? Same with United. City didn’t have enough history of being strong to make the statistics.

Why did he make that comparison though? No-one else did.
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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16894 on: May 19, 2019, 01:12:27 pm »
Why did he make that comparison though? No-one else did.

That's a good question.

Should have just owned the achievement in its own right. It has never been done before.

Allowing Liverpool to live rent free in his head. Just worry about your own team


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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16895 on: May 19, 2019, 01:30:14 pm »
LFC are in MCFC's head big time never mind Pep's without even trying. They seem more preoccupied with what we're doing than themselves. And I'm fucking loving it.

Doubt they are arsed about us to be honest. They are enjoying their trophies wins while we are waiting for ours in 7 years.

Some people moan about City being obsessed with us, but I'm starting to think it's a bit mutual.
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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16896 on: May 19, 2019, 01:31:50 pm »
They were but I wouldn't fancy Leicester or Burnley away too much with our second-string side.

Leicester and Burnley played second-string sides too though.

Leicester's team was Ward, Simpson, Söyüncü, Maguire, Fuchs, Ghezzal, Choudhury, Iborra, Ndidi, Gray, Iheanacho. I'd fancy our chances against that no matter what team we put out. City only beat them on pens.

Burnley made 7 changes in the FA Cup game at the Etihad.

Their 2 cup runs couldn't have been any easier for them.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 01:51:40 pm by MindGuerrillas »

Offline RedorRed

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16897 on: May 19, 2019, 01:47:45 pm »
Leicester and Burnley played second-string sides too though.

Leicester's teams was Ward, Simpson, Söyüncü, Maguire, Fuchs, Ghezzal, Choudhury, Iborra, Ndidi, Gray, Iheanacho. I'd fancy our chances against that no matter what team we put out. City only beat them on pens.

Burnley made 7 changes in the FA Cup game at the Etihad.

Their 2 cup runs couldn't have been any easier for them.
And they won the Premier by 11.7mm....... 11.8mm the other way and we’d have won the title as invincibles

Offline PoetryInMotion

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16898 on: May 19, 2019, 01:49:06 pm »
In fairness, that’s not what he had said. He compared the treble vs the CL. And for that he’s right. How many teams have won a treble, any treble, and how many times? We ourselves have 5 (soon to be 6) Big Years, and how many trebles? Same with United. City didn’t have enough history of being strong to make the statistics.

It's similar to the invincible vs more points than invincible without being invincible. Which is greater?

There are many who say the invincible season of Arsenal - and maybe there's an argument for having that over 93 points (I'm not saying either way), but beyond 95 and above points, it's only going one way and I've held that opinion for a long time. People even compared invincible season to 100 points season of City and claimed that invincible is still better and the main argument they come up with is that how many times it has been achieved/repeated?

I respectfully disagree. I think Man City's 100 points is greater (without considering their off the pitch issues with their club). You can never assess the difficulty of a competition by number of wins. For example, take the European Cup/Champions League and UEFA Cup/Europa League. Yes, there is a 16 years gap between the initiation of these two tournaments, but the EC/CL has been won 13 times by one team, then 7 times by another team, then 5 times by 3 sides whereas the UC/EL has been won 5 times by 1 team and 3 times by 4 teams. Does that mean the UC/EL is harder to win since there are no dominating sides as in the EC/CL? Europa League is harder than Champions League, right?

That is absolutely the wrong way to assess which is the harder one, the number of times it has been won. The better way, which is also arbitrary, is to see who is trying harder to achieve what.

Nobody really sets out at the start of a season to be invincible. I'm not saying it's not hard, it is, but when something is not really a target, how can you compare or assess with other achievements which are legit targets which teams are doing their best to achieve? All teams are trying to get to the most points, the invincible thing only becomes a 2nd target when a teams goes through 2/3rds of a season intact and can go for it without jeopardizing their main target, that is to win the title or get most points. Otherwise, if you remove most points as a target, then a lot of sides in history would've taken the approach to get to 15+ draws or something to achieve invincible status but getting a lot lesser points than they could. By increasing the number of teams attempting to be invincible (by removing the primary target of securing more points), we can easily get more teams to achieve the invincible status. It's like I want to do A and I'm trying my best to do A, so I'm getting to A more. I want to do A more than I want to do B, so when B is a sideshow, it doesn't mean that getting B is harder the getting A.

The same is with the treble and the CL. I respect the League title, but beyond that about the domestic cups, it's a matter of how many sides are arsed with these cups to try and win them. And coming to that stage also depends on the draw in the cups and how easy/hard the journey is. The only times teams try and make that a target is when that does not jeopardize your chances of achieving bigger targets. I mean Wenger won plenty of FA Cups, but were their fans satisfied? There were rumbles everywhere because they were poor in Europe, and they were just going Top 4 in the league. The moment they dropped out of Top 4, the cups failed to be consolation for them, they just weren't arsed anymore. It simply explains that these cups are not really primary targets of top teams, they are an afterthought. Once you see through that, it's clear that this is about the Premier League vs the Champions League and we know which one is the Bigger Club Competition and which one is the more challenging one.

See how much efforts Man City put in to win the CL and still came short by a mile, whereas with their treble, the two cups were piss easy with the routes, the League was their biggest challenge and that too only because we were around that territory. So, they were a consistent team over the season, but they didn't quite hit the peak to win the CL.

It's clear that Guardiola is still bitter that his team is not in the CL Final.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 01:56:21 pm by PoetryInMotion »

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16899 on: May 19, 2019, 01:57:21 pm »
And they won the Premier by 11.7mm....... 11.8mm the other way and we’d have won the title as invincibles

What utterly bizarre logic
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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16900 on: May 19, 2019, 02:00:27 pm »
Doubt they are arsed about us to be honest. They are enjoying their trophies wins while we are waiting for ours in 7 years.

Some people moan about City being obsessed with us, but I'm starting to think it's a bit mutual.

Nope, the day you see our players and manager go out of their way to mention them whilst celebrating a victory of our own is the day you'd have a point.

The day you see our fans celebrating and singing about City in a match where we aren't playing City is the day you'd be right. The day you see one of our own fans rant about City after a cup final win in where City weren't involved is the day you'd be right.


Offline Kenny Red

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16901 on: May 19, 2019, 03:24:30 pm »
Nope, the day you see our players and manager go out of their way to mention them whilst celebrating a victory of our own is the day you'd have a point.

The day you see our fans celebrating and singing about City in a match where we aren't playing City is the day you'd be right. The day you see one of our own fans rant about City after a cup final win in where City weren't involved is the day you'd be right.



Couldn't have put it better. Beyond our team showing respect I havent heard a single peep from our club. Why? Because they havent got into heads, whereas we are most certainly in theirs without a single word being said.
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Offline Clayton Bigsby

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16902 on: May 19, 2019, 03:36:03 pm »
Couldn't have put it better. Beyond our team showing respect I havent heard a single peep from our club. Why? Because they havent got into heads, whereas we are most certainly in theirs without a single word being said.

I agree. Wish this would extend to the fans.

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16903 on: May 19, 2019, 03:39:08 pm »
Doubt they are arsed about us to be honest. They are enjoying their trophies wins while we are waiting for ours in 7 years.

Some people moan about City being obsessed with us, but I'm starting to think it's a bit mutual.

They are deffo obsessed and bothered by us.

The official club twitter account mocks us the day they win the league.
The players sing about us on the plane home the day they win the League.
They do the domestic treble and the manager instead refers to the CL
A supporter bursts into the press area at Wembley and rants that they will talk about Salah and not them in the next days papers
The only new song they have is one we started in the UK and is all about us in Kiev (and other disgusting references)
Sky do interviews outside the ground and its "Fuck off you Scouse c*nts"

We talk about the cheating and what we need to do next season to beat them to the title.

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16904 on: May 19, 2019, 04:31:27 pm »
I remember about 10 years or so ago we used to have debates on here about the Mancs being obsessed by us, and whether the obsession was mutual etc. In that example I think anyone saying the hatred on both sides was mutual had a fairly valid point as I absolutely despised them (and still do), although we rarely engaged in songs about them when not playing them but they obviously regularly did about us (must be a Manchester thing.)

With City however it’s a moot point. Nobody gives a fuck other than the fact they’ve stopped us not just winning, but in reality walking to the title. As a club they’re a fucking joke and that title celebration with their fans just highlights it.

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16905 on: May 19, 2019, 05:03:06 pm »
I agree. Wish this would extend to the fans.

We've fuck all to do for 2 weeks. They're the main news. Everything they do and say is basically about us. We're allowed to take the piss.

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16906 on: May 19, 2019, 05:11:01 pm »
We've fuck all to do for 2 weeks. They're the main news. Everything they do and say is basically about us. We're allowed to take the piss.

This. We can only analyze the game so much

But confusing what we're talking on about here and what their players and manager are saying are far two different things.

Offline Mr_Shane

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16907 on: May 19, 2019, 05:34:35 pm »
I think more about Man Utd than Man City. I visit the Man Utd thread on the general discussion forum, much more often than I do the Man City thread. I don't think I am obsessed though. I just enjoy making fun of  Man Utd and see the 1990s version of us in them.  :wave

Offline mrantarctica

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16908 on: May 19, 2019, 06:14:53 pm »
Couldn't have put it better. Beyond our team showing respect I havent heard a single peep from our club. Why? Because they havent got into heads, whereas we are most certainly in theirs without a single word being said.

It's because their season is over. They set out to win the champions league, and they won't be there (again). They achieved their other objectives so fair dues to them. They have a great squad which is what you get when you get a good manager and give him 500m to spend. Hopefully our lads are fully focussed on bringing home silverware with our remaining game of the season.

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16909 on: May 19, 2019, 06:30:41 pm »
I think for Klopp and for me at least, its not so much about winning titles and cups but more so about forming feel-good memories which will last.

Winning titles and cups does that, but so does getting the result we need against Barcelona. Viewed in isolation, its just a game against a top side which we won. Did we win a cup or title as a direct result of that victory? No. Yet the celebrations and the aftermath of that victory, especially for those at Anfield will be remembered for the rest of everyones lives.

The same goes for the 4-3 win against Dortmund and all those last minute winners this season against Everton, Spurs and the last minute equalizer against Chelsea. I even remember that 5-4 win against Norwich in a season when we did not win anything :)

I feel that for City, its more so about winning the titles.

« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 10:04:33 pm by Mr_Shane »

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16910 on: May 19, 2019, 08:26:58 pm »
I agree. Wish this would extend to the fans.

Yes we should just bury our heads in the sand and allow them to continue to cheat their way to trophies. We should ignore the fact that they breached FFP. We should ignore their players having their image rights owned by Abu Dhabi so they can have a lower wage bill. We should ignore their players not being available for drug testing. We should ignore City making illegal payments to agents and breaching rules regarding young players.

In short we should say nothing to see here and legitimise their cheating.
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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16911 on: May 19, 2019, 08:43:20 pm »
What utterly bizarre logic

I'm not sure about his logic but surely his maths are right. 11.8mm, the ball would have been over then line, a draw......etc.

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16912 on: May 19, 2019, 08:56:42 pm »

snip...

Good post, mate, and I agree with a lot of that. most comparisons seems to be like apples and oranges. We were beaten in only one game this season, but we did not win the PL. In the end, that's what matters. And it's not onl;y which team is better, but which had Lady Luck on their side. I disagree with the general statement that the best team always wins over 38 games. For closely matched teams, luck is the tie-breaker. We had a share of good fortune and misfortune, and so did City. There is no objective way to judge how many points for each team were influenced by luck, but there's no denying that luck is important. We may not have situations like Everton home work for us next season. Or we'll have more of those. Who knows...
 
As for Pep, yea, we're in his head. I don't think that he's obsessed by us, but utterly surprised that he couldn't shake us off by April. And the comment may have been prompted by the general media expectation that he'd win all competitions. Whatever. I don't really care. He made a comment that I see as awkward, but not wrong and not disrespectful.
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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16913 on: May 19, 2019, 08:59:28 pm »
I'm not sure about his logic but surely his maths are right. 11.8mm, the ball would have been over then line, a draw......etc.

It happened four months before the end of the season, pretty much halfway into the game. We lost the title because the FA and Premier League has essentially allowed a team to use a real life FM cheat code.
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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16914 on: May 19, 2019, 09:13:41 pm »
In fairness, that’s not what he had said. He compared the treble vs the CL. And for that he’s right. How many teams have won a treble, any treble, and how many times? We ourselves have 5 (soon to be 6) Big Years, and how many trebles? Same with United. City didn’t have enough history of being strong to make the statistics.

How many teams have had the resources of a country spent on them as a PR exercise (apart from PSG of course).

And we've won two trebles mate. The 2001 treble being about as shard as you can get because we literally had to play every game possible.

And I know Joe Fagan is from before the invention of football in 1992 but he won our first treble of the European Cup, League and League Cup back in 1984.

And just as a reminder - this is Man City's run to the FA Cup Final: Rotherham, Burnley, Newport County, Swansea and Brighton.

It's hard to see how they managed to overcome those powerhouses of modern football. We just had to overcome PSG, Napoli, Red Star, Bayern Munich and Barcelona to get to the European Cup Final...

Despite all the advantages, Pep has failed in Europe twice now with City, just like he did with Bayern.
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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16915 on: May 19, 2019, 09:14:15 pm »
It happened four months before the end of the season, pretty much halfway into the game. We lost the title because the FA and Premier League has essentially allowed a team to use a real life FM cheat code.

Can't argue with that.

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16916 on: May 19, 2019, 09:51:23 pm »
How many teams have had the resources of a country spent on them as a PR exercise (apart from PSG of course).

And we've won two trebles mate. The 2001 treble being about as shard as you can get because we literally had to play every game possible.

And I know Joe Fagan is from before the invention of football in 1992 but he won our first treble of the European Cup, League and League Cup back in 1984.

And just as a reminder - this is Man City's run to the FA Cup Final: Rotherham, Burnley, Newport County, Swansea and Brighton.

It's hard to see how they managed to overcome those powerhouses of modern football. We just had to overcome PSG, Napoli, Red Star, Bayern Munich and Barcelona to get to the European Cup Final...

Despite all the advantages, Pep has failed in Europe twice now with City, just like he did with Bayern.

Well said Al.

It is not just the FA Cup in the League Cup they faced Oxford, Fulham, Leicester, Burton and Chelsea so to win both domestic Cups they only had to face two teams from the top half of the Premier League. Leicester and Chelsea were the only two teams from the top half of the table. To make it worse both games ended in a stalemate with City winning both games on penalties.

Even in the Champions League they went out to the first decent side they faced. As for Guardiola it is not twice he has failed at City in the Champions League he also lost to Monaco in his first season.

Guardiola hasn't made it to a Champions League final for 8 years despite managing Barca, Bayern and Abu Dhabi. To put that into perspective Klopp is looking forward to his 3rd Champions League final since 2013. Then again you tend not to be drawn against Burton Albion in a Champions League semi.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16917 on: May 19, 2019, 10:51:07 pm »
How many teams have had the resources of a country spent on them as a PR exercise (apart from PSG of course).

And we've won two trebles mate. The 2001 treble being about as shard as you can get because we literally had to play every game possible.

And I know Joe Fagan is from before the invention of football in 1992 but he won our first treble of the European Cup, League and League Cup back in 1984.

And just as a reminder - this is Man City's run to the FA Cup Final: Rotherham, Burnley, Newport County, Swansea and Brighton.

It's hard to see how they managed to overcome those powerhouses of modern football. We just had to overcome PSG, Napoli, Red Star, Bayern Munich and Barcelona to get to the European Cup Final...

Despite all the advantages, Pep has failed in Europe twice now with City, just like he did with Bayern.
No disagreement with the disproportionate financial power of some teams (Chelsea, City) and the top pickings at their disposal. And City are sort of expected to win due to the above. And yes, City got the rub of the green with the teams they faced. And yes, they failed miserably when facing a decent opponent. But still, there is no factual argument that contradicts that a treble of any kind is more difficult than winning the Champions Cup / Champions League. We had 2 trebles, 5 CL cups. United has 1 treble, 3 CL cups.
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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16918 on: May 19, 2019, 11:18:49 pm »
Those are different trebles though. I think there are two different comparisons. You could look at the number of challenging games to win a treble or the total number of games you need to win a treble. If you count the number of games you need to play and the number of games you need to win, then winning City's treble is harder than than winning the CL.

If on the other hand you count the number of challenging games, then more work needs to go into the comparison. What is a "challenging game" ?

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16919 on: May 19, 2019, 11:31:18 pm »
No disagreement with the disproportionate financial power of some teams (Chelsea, City) and the top pickings at their disposal. And City are sort of expected to win due to the above. And yes, City got the rub of the green with the teams they faced. And yes, they failed miserably when facing a decent opponent. But still, there is no factual argument that contradicts that a treble of any kind is more difficult than winning the Champions Cup / Champions League. We had 2 trebles, 5 CL cups. United has 1 treble, 3 CL cups.

I would say the recent run of Celtic disproves your theory. They are on for a treble of trebles yet are a million miles away from winning the Champions League. That for me shows that the difficulty in winning a treble is hugely dependant on the teams you have to face.

Add in the fact that a lot of teams rest players for the cup games and it lessens the achievement of City in winning the two domestic cups. In a situation in which teams are rotated for Cup games the team that can field a £300m+ reserve side has a ridiculous advantage. 

The Champions League by definition is the elite competition and far too often Guardiola's teams come up short.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10