Author Topic: U.S. launches Operation Iron Fist in Iraq  (Read 15737 times)

Offline SMD

  • Shit streamer. Can't be found by drive man.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 34,014
Re: U.S. launches Operation Iron Fist in Iraq
« Reply #80 on: October 4, 2005, 06:53:13 pm »
He was in Basra, same as me. Every Iraqi I spoke to was gald to see us to, for what it's worth.

Yes, because you were in Basra.
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."

Offline BIGdavalad

  • Major Malfunction. Yearns To Be A Crab! MOD Agony Aunt. Dulldream Believer. Is the proud owner of a one year old login time.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,024
Re: U.S. launches Operation Iron Fist in Iraq
« Reply #81 on: October 4, 2005, 07:17:02 pm »
I think you have a whole lot of experiences, knowledge, understanding, thoughts and emotions that i cannot even begin to comprehend.  i think of all the disagreements we have had on these boards I have never once claimed that my knowledge or experience is greater than yours.

However, that does not, in my humble opinion, mean that my considered view of things is any more or less valid than yours.  In this case you have an experience of the armed forces, or war, and of its effects on civilians, on servicemen and women which I do not have -   I accept that, and as you also know I am more than willing to listen, consider and learn.  our view is your view - there are lots of people who have been through similair things to you, but have different views about the same situation - they have reached a different conclusion.  not everyone who goes through the same comes out of it with the same view.
But i am not willing to be drummed out of the arguement just because you were there and have sincerley held views.  as one of my favourite quotes says

"i am not willing to accept somebody elses opinion just because they are sincerly held.  the nazi's sincerely hated the jews, they werent kidding. i"m not respecting their fucking ideas just because they were deeply held.......I think people have the right to believe in anything they want, no matter how ridiculous it might be. But i don't believe in their right to coerce others into the same views.  And I don't accept any right they might think they might have not to have their views challenged just because they are going to feel peeved in the process"

I don't want to drum anyone out of any discussion mate, I agree that we all have a different opinion on things and I have no problem with that, so long as you are willing to back your opinion up. Some of the shite that Harry Wong and Seat_5c were coming out with was frankly insulting to the British Army. I respect your opinion (even though we disagree) because you can debate a topic with a bit of respect.


Quote
My views are from afar, i have not been to war.  but quite simply I think this war is wrong. i think it is unjust, and I think that it is awful that working class men and women are dying for a cause which is cynical and profit led.  thats why i feel strongly.  i hated SH, i hate bush, i hate a system which sees human life as expendable for profit.  I do not want a single more person to die in the war.  In my view bush does not care about the oppression under which the iraq population were living, he is not interested in improving their conditions of life.
When we understand the crisis the american economy is anticipating we understand the need for the war.

War should always be a last resort, I didn't agree with the invasion of Iraq, because it was based on a lie. Now we are there we have to finish the job, we can't leave half way through because it would betray the Iraqi people who are expecting us rebuild their country. I hate Blair and Bush for the position they have put us in, but we're in that position and we have to make the best of it.

Quote
I am sorry for the people who think they are liberators bringing freedom.  I know davlad know how shabbily the MOD and the british state take care of forces personel, he has spkone about it passionatly on here.  but from easter island to the first gulf war and all around it has alwatys been the same

"Ah but when the sky darkens and the prospect is war
They'll give us a gun and push us to the fore
And expect us to die for the land of our birth
Although we never owned one handful of earth
We're the first ones to starve, the first ones to die
The first ones in line for that pie in the sky
And we're always the last when the cream is shared out
For the workers working when the fat cat's about"

Nothing new in squaddies getting shat on, Kipling wrote 'Tommy' in the 1800s and most of it still fits now. We're an easy target for cuts and because we're so professional we still manage to get by, so we get more cuts. It's going to take a bad defeat to make the politicians realise that we need proper funding, and I don't think that defeat is too far away the way things are going.
Joining Betfair? Use the referral code UHHFL6VHG and we'll both get some extra cash.

All of the above came from my head unless otherwise stated. If you have been affected by the issues raised by my post, please feel free to contact us on 0800 1234567 and we will send you an information pack on manning the fuck up.

Offline BIGdavalad

  • Major Malfunction. Yearns To Be A Crab! MOD Agony Aunt. Dulldream Believer. Is the proud owner of a one year old login time.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,024
Re: U.S. launches Operation Iron Fist in Iraq
« Reply #82 on: October 4, 2005, 07:17:47 pm »
Yes, because you were in Basra.

Is their opinion not valid because they are from Basra?
Joining Betfair? Use the referral code UHHFL6VHG and we'll both get some extra cash.

All of the above came from my head unless otherwise stated. If you have been affected by the issues raised by my post, please feel free to contact us on 0800 1234567 and we will send you an information pack on manning the fuck up.

Offline SMD

  • Shit streamer. Can't be found by drive man.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 34,014
Re: U.S. launches Operation Iron Fist in Iraq
« Reply #83 on: October 5, 2005, 04:53:17 am »
Is their opinion not valid because they are from Basra?

No opinion is invalid because of what you can draw from that opinion.

But to be blunt, you might as well just have handed a large slice of cake to Iran. A cake filled with oil.
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."

Offline ewok-red

  • Anarchist, potentially violent but lacks bottle.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,405
Re: U.S. launches Operation Iron Fist in Iraq
« Reply #84 on: October 5, 2005, 09:03:39 am »
davlad, thanks for that response, I appreciate your honesty and respect your integrity.  its the Gung-Ho ism which really un nerves me.  i know a certain kind of attitude, focus, mindset is needed to survive in a war sitution and i know the last thing the leadership and politicians want is servicemen and women questioning the social, economic or moral context of war, but I just get irritated by the 'simplistic' views which pass for agruement on both sides. 
I just can't get rid of that gnawing hatred of the loss of life in pursuit of profit - and i apply that to the lads who die cos firms don't apply health and safety properly on building sites cos its cheaper, to the bastards who send struggling cockle pickers to their death for profit to the service people and civilians who are getting injured, damaged and killed in iraq.

Do you seriously see an end to the war in iraq soon?  I know they have said next year to start withdrawl, but i can't see it myself, I can see them replacing our troops with others to save face, but i  just cannot see it being stable at all.  Will it not be another NI?.  and will Bush and the far right be really happy with just iraq?  we can already see them lining up the likes of Iran.  but would it be too much of a resource demand to take iraq and iran on at the sametime?
"the music isn't here to save the world, its there to save your life"  - skip jones, in 'stories we could tell' tony parsons, harper collins / qpd

Offline BIGdavalad

  • Major Malfunction. Yearns To Be A Crab! MOD Agony Aunt. Dulldream Believer. Is the proud owner of a one year old login time.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,024
Re: U.S. launches Operation Iron Fist in Iraq
« Reply #85 on: October 5, 2005, 11:32:07 am »
davlad, thanks for that response, I appreciate your honesty and respect your integrity.  its the Gung-Ho ism which really un nerves me.  i know a certain kind of attitude, focus, mindset is needed to survive in a war sitution and i know the last thing the leadership and politicians want is servicemen and women questioning the social, economic or moral context of war, but I just get irritated by the 'simplistic' views which pass for agruement on both sides.

I honestly don't think I'm all that gung-ho, do I come across that way? Or are you talking about the attitude shown by our political leaders? Although you're right about needing a certain mindset to be in a situation like that, I don't think most British soldiers are 'gung-ho'. We are aggressive when we need to be, because without the aggression that is sometimes needed, more people die on both sides. Americans are far more gung-ho than our soldiers, which is why they are not really suited for peacekeeping operations.
 
Quote
I just can't get rid of that gnawing hatred of the loss of life in pursuit of profit - and i apply that to the lads who die cos firms don't apply health and safety properly on building sites cos its cheaper, to the bastards who send struggling cockle pickers to their death for profit to the service people and civilians who are getting injured, damaged and killed in iraq.

I don't want anyone (well, not many people) to die either, and certainly not for someone to make money. Although Iraq seems to be like that, we could make a big difference to the people of Iraq and hopefully we can before we pull out. If we can make their lives better, than maybe the sacrifices will be worthwhile. If not, then certain people in both Governments need to be made properly responsible for the people they have killed over there.

Quote
Do you seriously see an end to the war in iraq soon?  I know they have said next year to start withdrawl, but i can't see it myself, I can see them replacing our troops with others to save face, but i  just cannot see it being stable at all.  Will it not be another NI?.  and will Bush and the far right be really happy with just iraq?  we can already see them lining up the likes of Iran.  but would it be too much of a resource demand to take iraq and iran on at the sametime?

I don't see any end to the trouble. We won't be pulling out next year, not a chance of it. We can't replace our soldiers or US soldiers with anyone else, because no one else with a big enough army wants to come and join the party. We're sitting in the middle of a slowly unfolding civil war and Iraq is (IMO) going to get far messier than it is now before it gets better. It's up to the people of Iraq which road they want to take.
Joining Betfair? Use the referral code UHHFL6VHG and we'll both get some extra cash.

All of the above came from my head unless otherwise stated. If you have been affected by the issues raised by my post, please feel free to contact us on 0800 1234567 and we will send you an information pack on manning the fuck up.

Offline a partridge in seat_5c

  • blames English football
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,656
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: U.S. launches Operation Iron Fist in Iraq
« Reply #86 on: October 5, 2005, 01:15:15 pm »
It's up to the people of Iraq which road they want to take.

quite clearly it isn't, it's down to what the Yanks want

the most sensible thing as far as I can see (prob not very far then) would be to scrap Iraq completely, let the Sunnis have their own bit and the Shias have their own bit and the Kurds have their own bit and be done with it...

but then the Yanks don't want the Kurds creating trouble for the Turks and don't want the Shias joining up with Iran and don't want the Sunnis destabilising Saudi

bit of a mess isn't it...

Offline Monkey Red

  • Jacques Cousteau
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,431
  • Just add salty water
Re: U.S. launches Operation Iron Fist in Iraq
« Reply #87 on: October 5, 2005, 01:56:10 pm »
quite clearly it isn't, it's down to what the Yanks want

the most sensible thing as far as I can see (prob not very far then) would be to scrap Iraq completely, let the Sunnis have their own bit and the Shias have their own bit and the Kurds have their own bit and be done with it...

but then the Yanks don't want the Kurds creating trouble for the Turks and don't want the Shias joining up with Iran and don't want the Sunnis destabilising Saudi

bit of a mess isn't it...
Not to mention the Civil War that would break out as soon as that happens. That´s why we can´t leave this giant clusterfuck at the moment, because it´s a mess our glorious leaders have got us into and we (Our Soldiers) have to sort out first.
'It'll whisper to them of Liverpools five glorious European Cup victories"

Offline SMD

  • Shit streamer. Can't be found by drive man.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 34,014
Re: U.S. launches Operation Iron Fist in Iraq
« Reply #88 on: October 5, 2005, 02:06:59 pm »
quite clearly it isn't, it's down to what the Yanks want

the most sensible thing as far as I can see (prob not very far then) would be to scrap Iraq completely, let the Sunnis have their own bit and the Shias have their own bit and the Kurds have their own bit and be done with it...

but then the Yanks don't want the Kurds creating trouble for the Turks and don't want the Shias joining up with Iran and don't want the Sunnis destabilising Saudi

bit of a mess isn't it...

Sensible?

The Sunni Arabs would be economically impotent, given that they'd be landlocked, oil less and have very little infrastructure since it's faced the most American bombings.
The Shiites who are mainly Persian or descendents of Persians would immediately run over to Iran and most likely want to be a part of it again, giving Iran the biggest share of oil in the world. Plus you'd have Iran bordering on Saudi Arabia and Syria, which would cause immense problems.
The Turks and Kurds would be constantly fighting and you'd pretty much get an explosion of conflict in the region, worse than now.

Besides, what was wrong with Iraq before? If I'm not mistaken, this was meant to go after one man, right? Or what?

I still find it funny and downright weird that the US and UK are constantly talking about Iran being the enemy, yet the people they're supporting in Iraq are either Iranian or pledge allegiance to Iran.
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."

Offline BIGdavalad

  • Major Malfunction. Yearns To Be A Crab! MOD Agony Aunt. Dulldream Believer. Is the proud owner of a one year old login time.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,024
Re: U.S. launches Operation Iron Fist in Iraq
« Reply #89 on: October 5, 2005, 05:36:25 pm »
quite clearly it isn't, it's down to what the Yanks want

the most sensible thing as far as I can see (prob not very far then) would be to scrap Iraq completely, let the Sunnis have their own bit and the Shias have their own bit and the Kurds have their own bit and be done with it...

but then the Yanks don't want the Kurds creating trouble for the Turks and don't want the Shias joining up with Iran and don't want the Sunnis destabilising Saudi

bit of a mess isn't it...

Yet again, a post completely devoid of knowledge of the situation. Iran with the biggest oil reserves in the world, and on the borders of Saudi and Syria? Northern Kurdish Iraq will end up being swallowed into Turkey. The Saudis will take the bits left over. Yet more trouble, yet more bloodshed, yet more invasions and conflicts and even more oil shortages for the west. All makes sense  ::)
Joining Betfair? Use the referral code UHHFL6VHG and we'll both get some extra cash.

All of the above came from my head unless otherwise stated. If you have been affected by the issues raised by my post, please feel free to contact us on 0800 1234567 and we will send you an information pack on manning the fuck up.

Offline SMD

  • Shit streamer. Can't be found by drive man.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 34,014
Re: U.S. launches Operation Iron Fist in Iraq
« Reply #90 on: October 5, 2005, 05:52:27 pm »
Yet again, a post completely devoid of knowledge of the situation. Iran with the biggest oil reserves in the world, and on the borders of Saudi and Syria? Northern Kurdish Iraq will end up being swallowed into Turkey. The Saudis will take the bits left over. Yet more trouble, yet more bloodshed, yet more invasions and conflicts and even more oil shortages for the west. All makes sense  ::)

You forgot Israel being oh so closer to Iran as well.
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."

Offline BIGdavalad

  • Major Malfunction. Yearns To Be A Crab! MOD Agony Aunt. Dulldream Believer. Is the proud owner of a one year old login time.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,024
Re: U.S. launches Operation Iron Fist in Iraq
« Reply #91 on: October 5, 2005, 06:04:00 pm »
You forgot Israel being oh so closer to Iran as well.

Very true, thought it would speak for itself, but maybe not. Still, I'm sure two countries that despise each other, with one having the destruction of the other as part of their country's constitution, one with nukes, one that could be devloping them, and both with the facility to deliver them, would be a great idea.
Joining Betfair? Use the referral code UHHFL6VHG and we'll both get some extra cash.

All of the above came from my head unless otherwise stated. If you have been affected by the issues raised by my post, please feel free to contact us on 0800 1234567 and we will send you an information pack on manning the fuck up.

Offline SMD

  • Shit streamer. Can't be found by drive man.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 34,014
Re: U.S. launches Operation Iron Fist in Iraq
« Reply #92 on: October 5, 2005, 06:15:28 pm »
Very true, thought it would speak for itself, but maybe not. Still, I'm sure two countries that despise each other, with one having the destruction of the other as part of their country's constitution, one with nukes, one that could be devloping them, and both with the facility to deliver them, would be a great idea.

Not to mention they're both fond of black ops or sneaky tactics.

You know, I'm beginning to think it wasn't actually that bad when Iraq was isolated from the rest of the world during the 90's.
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."

Offline ewok-red

  • Anarchist, potentially violent but lacks bottle.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,405
Re: U.S. launches Operation Iron Fist in Iraq
« Reply #93 on: October 5, 2005, 06:23:06 pm »
I honestly don't think I'm all that gung-ho, do I come across that way?
well i guess you come across gung ho in the sameway that i come across as a tree hugging hippy idealist!....so i guess yes, but as i have said before you also have the ability to be the most considered and thoughtful

 
I don't want anyone (well, not many people) to die either, and certainly not for someone to make money. Although Iraq seems to be like that, we could make a big difference to the people of Iraq and hopefully we can before we pull out. If we can make their lives better, than maybe the sacrifices will be worthwhile.

See this is the bit that really troubles me and what i was trying to get at in an earlier exchange.  If its wrong to have gone in, its wrong and we need to say it.  i think the politicians have throughout the campaign tried to use this ruse, and i think, to be honest you are buying it.  Although we know we are there for the wrong reasons, we have to see the positives, we have to see that their lives will be better. but there lives will only be better in the contaxt of having been invaded and told how to run their country, and having been robbed of their natural wealth by the west.  that cant be right at all can it. even if its better to improve their lives by them not living under the terror of SH, the terror of GB/TB may seem more acceptable to us, but is it.  can we see it is better to have your countries wealth robbed by a foriegn power and a benign/ acceptable to the west  'democratic' (sic) infrastructure than living under a dictatorship? 
its just swapping one bunch of crooks for another, and believing in the lesser of two (very) evils.

and its just repetition. i was involved in the nicaragua solidarity group in the eighties. an unacceptable (to the US) government is taking control and the US launch a very bloody covert operation to ensure they are deposed.

its just not on, and in no way acceptable.

and finally, and a bit flippantly, regarding your comment about 'the locals you spoke to in basra being very pleased to see you', is this not comparable to that saying about bombs in london during the second world war,  "its not the ones you hear that you need to worry about"  - or something like that.

and on a similair theme - we are both aware of the footage, often shown, of the catholic / republician community welcoming british soldiers to the streets of Derry when they first went in......

"the music isn't here to save the world, its there to save your life"  - skip jones, in 'stories we could tell' tony parsons, harper collins / qpd

Offline Hashman

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 59
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: U.S. launches Operation Iron Fist in Iraq
« Reply #94 on: October 5, 2005, 06:54:15 pm »
Not to mention they're both fond of black ops or sneaky tactics.


Ah, so they are recycling that old nonsense.

The U.S. used precisely the same story back in August. From NBC:  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8829929

From the BBC report: "The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said the technology had come from Hezbollah in Lebanon via Iran and produced an "explosively shaped projectile"

Let's have a look at a map shall we:



Notice how Hezbollah is in southern Lebanon, way over in the west of the map, on the Mediterranean? Do you notice how Iran is way over to the east of the map? Do you notice how there isn't any way to get from Lebanon to Iran except through Syria and then Turkey? Do you notice how there isn't any way to get from Lebanon to Iraq except via Syria or Syria-and-Jordan? (You could fly, but if the Lebanese government is permitting air transport of 500 pound bombs out of Beirut, we have other problems than just some Iraqi arms smuggling).

As if, with 250,000 tonnes of munitions missing in Iraq, the resistance needs to import bombs from outside, and there's more than enough military expertise in Iraq to produce shaped charges.

« Last Edit: October 5, 2005, 07:52:29 pm by Hashman »

Offline SMD

  • Shit streamer. Can't be found by drive man.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 34,014
Re: U.S. launches Operation Iron Fist in Iraq
« Reply #95 on: October 5, 2005, 07:01:42 pm »
I know the area very well, thank you. Even if you did embed a large peach box.

Are you trying to imply that there is absolutely no illegal movement of, well, anything from country to country - especially an area so porous as the Levant in this day and age?

The news story may not be accurate but are you trying to argue that it doesn't occur? I thought Iran and Hezbollah's love in was well known?
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."

Offline ewok-red

  • Anarchist, potentially violent but lacks bottle.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,405
Re: U.S. launches Operation Iron Fist in Iraq
« Reply #96 on: October 5, 2005, 07:06:08 pm »
I know the area very well, thank you. Even if you did embed a large peach box.

Are you trying to imply that there is absolutely no illegal movement of, well, anything from country to country - especially an area so porous as the Levant in this day and age?

The news story may not be accurate but are you trying to argue that it doesn't occur? I thought Iran and Hezbollah's love in was well known?

jeez, they are sneaking arms around to use defending their country against an invasion, who'd have thought it, sneaky fukers, mind you - good excuse to start bombing the rest of the region. ...

can we have at least a bit of understanding, and a bit of a sense that the western view is not by default the only story in the book
"the music isn't here to save the world, its there to save your life"  - skip jones, in 'stories we could tell' tony parsons, harper collins / qpd

Offline Hashman

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 59
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: U.S. launches Operation Iron Fist in Iraq
« Reply #97 on: October 5, 2005, 07:29:51 pm »
I know the area very well, thank you. Even if you did embed a large peach box.

Are you trying to imply that there is absolutely no illegal movement of, well, anything from country to country - especially an area so porous as the Levant in this day and age?

The news story may not be accurate but are you trying to argue that it doesn't occur? I thought Iran and Hezbollah's love in was well known?

Peach box?  Sorry don't understand.

I've re-read my post and it does come across as condescending.....sorry, that's not how it was meant to come across, just sloppy writing.

I realise that illegal movements take place but I just don't buy this story at all.  It's just too convoluted and unnecessary and fits in too nicely with the US/UK agenda of demonising Iran and deflecting from their own disastrous exploits in Iraq.

I'm under no illusions about how much influence Iran has in the country - after all the majority of Shias look to an Iranian cleric, Sistani, and most of the "Iraqi government" have spent the last 20 years in Iran - I just don't buy this tale.


Offline SMD

  • Shit streamer. Can't be found by drive man.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 34,014
Re: U.S. launches Operation Iron Fist in Iraq
« Reply #98 on: October 5, 2005, 07:34:14 pm »
The site you linked from doesn't allow hot linking. All that's there is a peach box, as opposed to a map.

Could I just mention that I am an Iraqi so I don't just take things from the western media? :wave
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."

Offline Hashman

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 59
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: U.S. launches Operation Iron Fist in Iraq
« Reply #99 on: October 5, 2005, 07:55:25 pm »
The site you linked from doesn't allow hot linking. All that's there is a peach box, as opposed to a map.

Ta....it looked ok on my computer.  I've tried another map.


Offline SMD

  • Shit streamer. Can't be found by drive man.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 34,014
Re: U.S. launches Operation Iron Fist in Iraq
« Reply #100 on: October 5, 2005, 08:01:39 pm »
Yep, that works.
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."

Offline jambutty

  • The Gok Wan of RAWK. Tripespotting Advocate. Oakley style guru. Hardman St. arl arse, "Ridiculously cool" -Atko- Impending U.S. Civil War Ostrich. Too old to suffer wankers and WUMs on here.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,864
  • June 20, 2009. Still no justice for Neda
Re: U.S. launches Operation Iron Fist in Iraq
« Reply #101 on: October 6, 2005, 12:45:28 am »
The Universal Soldier
by Buffy St. Marie circa 1963

He's five foot-two, and he's six feet-four,
He fights with missiles and with spears.
He's all of thirty-one, and he's only seventeen,
Been a soldier for a thousand years.

He'a a Catholic, a Hindu, an Atheist, a Jain,
A Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew.
And he knows he shouldn't kill,
And he knows he always will,
Kill you for me my friend and me for you.

And he's fighting for Canada,
He's fighting for France,
He's fighting for the USA,
And he's fighting for the Russians,
And he's fighting for Japan,
And he thinks we'll put an end to war this way.

And he's fighting for Democracy,
He's fighting for the Reds,
He says it's for the peace of all.
He's the one who must decide,
Who's to live and who's to die,
And he never sees the writing on the wall.

But without him,
How would Hitler have condemned them at Dachau?
Without him Caesar would have stood alone,
He's the one who gives his body
As a weapon of the war,
And without him all this killing can't go on.

He's the Universal Soldier and he really is to blame,
His orders come from far away no more,
They come from here and there and you and me,
And brothers can't you see,
This is not the way we put the end to war.
Kill the humourless

Offline ewok-red

  • Anarchist, potentially violent but lacks bottle.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,405
Re: U.S. launches Operation Iron Fist in Iraq
« Reply #102 on: October 6, 2005, 08:52:17 am »
jambuttytaffy - you'll be getting yerself labelled a tree hugging hippy idealist
"the music isn't here to save the world, its there to save your life"  - skip jones, in 'stories we could tell' tony parsons, harper collins / qpd