Author Topic: Labour Thread  (Read 176207 times)

Offline KillieRed

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2400 on: March 29, 2023, 09:56:38 am »
That's why he's ahead in the polls.

They have to appear centrist to get elected in England, that’s where most of the seats are so it’s a bit of a balancing act, because it will cost them votes/seats in some regions. Hopefully they’ll do more progressive things when in power.
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2401 on: March 29, 2023, 10:07:07 am »
They have to appear centrist to get elected in England, that’s where most of the seats are so it’s a bit of a balancing act, because it will cost them votes/seats in some regions. Hopefully they’ll do more progressive things when in power.

I think we're all hoping for that mate. But they main thing is to get into power otherwise we're stuck with the Tories again and Labour haven't done anything worthwhile. Again.

Fucking hate the idea some people seem to want Labour to be a principled protest party that never does anything to help anyone ever.

Can't get my head around that.
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2402 on: March 29, 2023, 10:11:59 am »
You're correct Debs.
It's essential that we have challenge and scrutiny of all of our politicians, but sometimes I wonder why people seem to act like Daily Mail plants whose only objective is to undermine Starmer and thrive on attempting to diminish a Labour chance of victory. It's a strange one.

RAWK members were much more hostile towards the previous leader (when he was leader).

RAWK members are generally favourable towards Starmer, I think there is very little chance anything posted here will diminish the chances of Labour victory.
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2403 on: March 29, 2023, 10:25:01 am »
RAWK members were much more hostile towards the previous leader (when he was leader).

RAWK members are generally favourable towards Starmer, I think there is very little chance anything posted here will diminish the chances of Labour victory.
Agree. If you can’t take it, don’t dish it out.

But I don’t think harking back to the past is helpful whatever ones proclivities
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Offline A Red Abroad

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2404 on: March 29, 2023, 10:36:31 am »
RAWK members were much more hostile towards the previous leader (when he was leader).

RAWK members are generally favourable towards Starmer, I think there is very little chance anything posted here will diminish the chances of Labour victory.

Equally, there's nothing wrong with wanting a Labour victory at the next GE, whilst at the same time not liking (or trusting) Starmer.
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Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2405 on: March 29, 2023, 10:38:53 am »
Agree. If you can’t take it, don’t dish it out.

But I don’t think harking back to the past is helpful whatever ones proclivities.


Sure, and you are consistent in that view, but I thought it was worth pointing out especially as John indicated it could diminish Labour chances. Did similar views surface in the previous leadership? I seem to remember Mods being part of the attacks on the previous leadership





As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2406 on: March 29, 2023, 10:40:20 am »
Equally, there's nothing wrong with wanting a Labour victory at the next GE, whilst at the same time not liking (or trusting) Starmer.

I said basically this yesterday,
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline A Red Abroad

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2407 on: March 29, 2023, 10:41:09 am »
My marmoset, to get things done,
You fell in Loch Ness with Major Tom.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2408 on: March 29, 2023, 10:47:24 am »
Sure, and you are consistent in that view, but I thought it was worth pointing out especially as John indicated it could diminish Labour chances. Did similar views surface in the previous leadership? I seem to remember Mods being part of the attacks on the previous leadership


If you look back then plenty of people were really happy that Corbyn got in. We backed him and thought he'd be like a breath of fresh air. I got behind him and I thought it was going to be great.

Unfortunately through a series of self-made cockups, weird decisions, Brexit enabling and loads of other shit that we've all already done to death, it turned out he wasn't a catalyst or a great leader or a wonderful politician. It seemed like he had spent so much time in the wilderness protesting that this is all he could do. Even when we have things as bad as we are, his pet projects seem to take the front seat against UK people really struggling and he's gone to to trump that with this crazy 'Peace in Ukraine' line. Added to that his views on NATO, Russia, Putin and self-defence as a nature and I'd say we dodged a bullet. Things are pretty shite now. Imagine if we were pulling up the Treaties that seem to be holding the world together?

You always seem to think people put the boot in immediately, but that's simply not true - many of us gave him much more of a chance than some (most?) Corbynites on here have ever given Starmer.
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2409 on: March 29, 2023, 10:50:20 am »
I never liked Blair (always seemed smarmy to me) but I voted for him. I like Starmer, to me he seems decent, has actually had a job and been successful at it. He seems organised, can follow a long term plan and can do 'devious' when required. Let's not blow it eh, the tories are shit scared of him.
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2410 on: March 29, 2023, 10:55:38 am »

If you look back then plenty of people were really happy that Corbyn got in. We backed him and thought he'd be like a breath of fresh air. I got behind him and I thought it was going to be great.

Unfortunately through a series of self-made cockups, weird decisions, Brexit enabling and loads of other shit that we've all already done to death, it turned out he wasn't a catalyst or a great leader or a wonderful politician. It seemed like he had spent so much time in the wilderness protesting that this is all he could do. Even when we have things as bad as we are, his pet projects seem to take the front seat against UK people really struggling and he's gone to to trump that with this crazy 'Peace in Ukraine' line. Added to that his views on NATO, Russia, Putin and self-defence as a nature and I'd say we dodged a bullet. Things are pretty shite now. Imagine if we were pulling up the Treaties that seem to be holding the world together?

You always seem to think people put the boot in immediately, but that's simply not true - many of us gave him much more of a chance than some (most?) Corbynites on here have ever given Starmer.

 ;D  speaking of consistency, yet again you have misrepresented what Ive said

Quote
You always seem to think people put the boot in immediately
Ive litterally never said anything that could back up this comment.

fwiw I wanted Starmer to win the leadership contest. Im not sure what thats supposed to prove.
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2411 on: March 29, 2023, 11:00:06 am »
;D  speaking of consistency, yet again you have misrepresented what Ive said
Ive litterally never said anything that could back up this comment.

fwiw I wanted Starmer to win the leadership contest. Im not sure what thats supposed to prove.


So you are saying that you didn't say

"RAWK members were much more hostile towards the previous leader (when he was leader)."

Followed by..

"I seem to remember Mods being part of the attacks on the previous leadership"


My point is that most people didn't 'attack' Corbyn until he had proven beyond any reasonable doubt that he wasn't very good at anything. Having a nutter brother didn't help much either, nor did his views that I mentioned above. All easily weaponised by the Tories and their media mates.

And there are plenty of examples on here alone (And on social media) that many Corbynitas :D  never gave Starmer any leeway or chance whatsoever. They were instantly on the attack.

That may not be you and fair enough if not, but as I said. Plenty of evidence of that even on here.
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2412 on: March 29, 2023, 11:04:58 am »
I never liked Blair (always seemed smarmy to me) but I voted for him. I like Starmer, to me he seems decent, has actually had a job and been successful at it. He seems organised, can follow a long term plan and can do 'devious' when required. Let's not blow it eh, the tories are shit scared of him.
He's a Tory in disguise.

How can anyone with 'Sir' in their name be considered to be remotely interested in working class people.
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2413 on: March 29, 2023, 11:05:36 am »
When the first thing you do as leader is reveal everything you pretended to stand for in order to win the job was a load of complete bullshit and you’re now going to gleefully tear it all up you’re not actually entitled to an extended period of ‘let’s give him a chance’.

If you start off by lying and fucking people over, your period of good grace is naturally going to decrease.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2414 on: March 29, 2023, 11:05:45 am »
So you are saying that you didn't say

"RAWK members were much more hostile towards the previous leader (when he was leader)."

Followed by..

"I seem to remember Mods being part of the attacks on the previous leadership"


My point is that most people didn't 'attack' Corbyn until he had proven beyond any reasonable doubt that he wasn't very good at anything. Having a nutter brother didn't help much either, nor did his views that I mentioned above. All easily weaponised by the Tories and their media mates.

Of course I said that (a few minutes ago  ;D)

What I havent said is that people attacked Corbyn from day one.  OR as you put it
Quote
You always seem to think people put the boot in immediately

Im always having to correct your false conclusions on my posts and its really irritating.
Can you stop it?
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2415 on: March 29, 2023, 11:12:53 am »
Of course I said that (a few minutes ago  ;D)

What I havent said is that people attacked Corbyn from day one.  OR as you put it
Im always having to correct your false conclusions on my posts and its really irritating.
Can you stop it?

Well you literally said "RAWK members were much more hostile towards the previous leader (when he was leader)."

Which is untrue. Many weren't as I''ve pointed out. It didn't happen overnight and it wasn't en-masse - maybe you've just worded it strangely. If you'd said "RAWK members after seeing just how shite Corbyn was after his laughable leadership  were much more hostile towards the previous leader" then I'd agree with you. The way I'm reading your sentence is that it happened immediately.

The reason I've interpreted it that way is because Starmer wasn't given one second before being called "A Tory in Disguise" (Funnily enough there's actually someone saying that exact thing on this page) or people saying stuff like "If you start off by lying and fucking people over, your period of good grace is naturally going to decrease" (And again, madly there is something on this very page on that too!)


Apologies if you always gave Starmer a chance and you never said anything against him or Labour since Corbyn left - I honestly thought you weren't a committed fan of him, but if you are fair enough, apologies.

But. Again. My point is that there are plenty of examples on this very site that there were people that immedaitely gave Starmer down the banks and never gave him a chance from day one. That point is tied to Corbyn because I'd say the vast majority on here DID give Corbyn a chance. The only people that really didn't were people like Yorkie (Who to be fair knows a bit about Politics and chancers like Corbyn and called it right)
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2416 on: March 29, 2023, 11:15:31 am »
Well you literally said "RAWK members were much more hostile towards the previous leader (when he was leader)."

Which is untrue..



I stopped reading at this point

You get so much wrong its staggering. 

This will be my last post on this ridiculous conversation. Try to improve.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2023, 11:17:54 am by Kenny's Jacket »
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2417 on: March 29, 2023, 11:20:16 am »
He's a Tory in disguise.

How can anyone with 'Sir' in their name be considered to be remotely interested in working class people.
Starmer didn't receive his knighthood for some dodgy parliamentary deal, he got it for services to law and criminal justice, a year before becoming an MP. As head of the CPS, coming from a working class background, it would be pretty churlish of anybody to suggest he didn't merit the award.
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2418 on: March 29, 2023, 11:20:36 am »
He's a Tory in disguise.

How can anyone with 'Sir' in their name be considered to be remotely interested in working class people.
interesting logic there - hope you don't think the same of king kenny

Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2419 on: March 29, 2023, 11:25:30 am »
interesting logic there - hope you don't think the same of king kenny

I was about to make this point, There are other examples, but non should hit home more than our clubs greatest servant. 

There are plenty of things to criticise him for getting a knighthood isnt one of them.
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline Red46

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2420 on: March 29, 2023, 11:25:55 am »
Starmer didn't receive his knighthood for some dodgy parliamentary deal, he got it for services to law and criminal justice, a year before becoming an MP. As head of the CPS, coming from a working class background, it would be pretty churlish of anybody to suggest he didn't merit the award.

He deserves a knighthood for his services to lying.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2421 on: March 29, 2023, 11:28:45 am »
I was about to make this point, There are other examples, but non should hit home more than our clubs greatest servant. 

There are plenty of things to criticise him for getting a knighthood isnt one of them.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2422 on: March 29, 2023, 11:32:03 am »
What's the average age of posters in this thread?

I've come across more mature 12 year olds.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2423 on: March 29, 2023, 11:33:30 am »
Jordan Henderson MBE says hi.......government shill that he is......
'

Is he the one that organised league wide help for the NHS?
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline A Red Abroad

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2424 on: March 29, 2023, 11:34:20 am »
What's the average age of posters in this thread?

I've come across more mature 12 year olds.

I'm 65, so I guess I push the average up a bit.

:)
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2425 on: March 29, 2023, 11:34:43 am »
I was about to make this point, There are other examples, but non should hit home more than our clubs greatest servant. 

There are plenty of things to criticise him for getting a knighthood isnt one of them.

Pats on the head from the establishment are fine now are they? Funny that we spent years as a fan base and as a 'people' (I'm talking about scousers) scoffing at them.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2426 on: March 29, 2023, 11:35:05 am »
I'm 65, so I guess I push the average up a bit.

:)

You dont look it
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2427 on: March 29, 2023, 11:35:23 am »
I'm 65, so I guess I push the average up a bit.

:)

I wouldn't be so sure - lots of oldies on here  ;)

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2428 on: March 29, 2023, 11:35:53 am »
They have to appear centrist to get elected in England, that’s where most of the seats are so it’s a bit of a balancing act, because it will cost them votes/seats in some regions. Hopefully they’ll do more progressive things when in power.


The thing is, economically progressive policies have been shown (by numerous polls) to be popular. But a lot of socially progressive policies are less so.

Yet, Labour don't tend to water-down the socially progressive policies
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2429 on: March 29, 2023, 11:35:56 am »

But I don’t think harking back to the past is helpful whatever ones proclivities


I disagree. It's a useful reminder of the task that still awaits Starmer and the Labour party. The 2019 general election was arguably the most catastrophic in the Labour party's history. The worse since 1935, but at least in 1935 we were building our vote and had a credible leader (Attlee). Once Starmer took over after the election he was faced with leading a party that had lost credibility with huge parts of the electorate. The Scots had abandoned it, the North and West Midlands had lost faith, and many ardent Remainers felt alienated too. The party under Corbyn (and the weird assortment of former-Communists and Trotskyists in his inner circle) was associated in the public mind with extremism and strange, irrelevant, causes. Even the leader's Lenin cap made ordinary Labour voters suspicious. In a way it was meant to. "I'm dangerous and bit batty", it said, "A man of October 1917". Of course we all know he was nothing of the kind. He was playing. But playing can have a big effect on the public mind too.

To develop amnesia about all that is dangerous. It sets up false expectations of what Starmer can do and how far he can dictate terms. The electorate do not love Labour. Many still haven't forgiven it for the turn it took under Corbyn. The Scots are still a little enchanted with the SNP experiment. There is still a careful balancing act to be performed to reconcile Labour's progressive voters and her socially-conservative ones.

It's great that Labour leads so handsomely in the polls. But it's a fragile lead I think. This isn't 1945. The massed battalions of the organised working class have not been radicalised by a world war. Socialism doesn't loom in the nation's mind as an obvious and radiant future. Under the circumstances Starmer is doing well. I thought the damage of Corbyn might be terminal. It doesn't appear to be. We can all rejoice at that. 
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2430 on: March 29, 2023, 11:37:02 am »
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2431 on: March 29, 2023, 11:37:23 am »
I wouldn't be so sure - lots of oldies on here  ;)

Fair enough.  ;D
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2432 on: March 29, 2023, 11:48:37 am »
I disagree. It's a useful reminder of the task that still awaits Starmer and the Labour party. The 2019 general election was arguably the most catastrophic in the Labour party's history. The worse since 1935, but at least in 1935 we were building our vote and had a credible leader (Attlee). Once Starmer took over after the election he was faced with leading a party that had lost credibility with huge parts of the electorate. The Scots had abandoned it, the North and West Midlands had lost faith, and many ardent Remainers felt alienated too. The party under Corbyn (and the weird assortment of former-Communists and Trotskyists in his inner circle) was associated in the public mind with extremism and strange, irrelevant, causes. Even the leader's Lenin cap made ordinary Labour voters suspicious. In a way it was meant to. "I'm dangerous and bit batty", it said, "A man of October 1917". Of course we all know he was nothing of the kind. He was playing. But playing can have a big effect on the public mind too.

To develop amnesia about all that is dangerous. It sets up false expectations of what Starmer can do and how far he can dictate terms. The electorate do not love Labour. Many still haven't forgiven it for the turn it took under Corbyn. The Scots are still a little enchanted with the SNP experiment. There is still a careful balancing act to be performed to reconcile Labour's progressive voters and her socially-conservative ones.

It's great that Labour leads so handsomely in the polls. But it's a fragile lead I think. This isn't 1945. The massed battalions of the organised working class have not been radicalised by a world war. Socialism doesn't loom in the nation's mind as an obvious and radiant future. Under the circumstances Starmer is doing well. I thought the damage of Corbyn might be terminal. It doesn't appear to be. We can all rejoice at that.

Rubbish, Corbyn came within a few thousand votes of power in 2017 and in 2019 he was stupid enough to listen to Starmer and push for a second referendum. The 2019 election was about Brexit not Corbyn. Given he had the billionaire owned press and even the establishment in his own party actively working against him I thought Corbin did an admirable job. His policies were actually pretty popular.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2433 on: March 29, 2023, 11:50:37 am »
Try and watch this mate - it's clear who the main charaacter is meant to be: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.B.H._%28TV_series%29

This is a wiki article about its origins and what came later: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militant_in_Liverpool


Thanks Andy, lots of learning for me to do. Though those links led me to "Militant's Trotskyist roots stretched back to the Workers International League in the 1930s and the post-war Revolutionary Communist Party."

I don't know what even half of that is. I do suspect some of those terms are bandied about to beat 'socialsts' with.
"All the lads have been talking about is walking out in front of the Kop, with 40,000 singing 'You'll Never Walk Alone'," Collins told BBC Radio Solent. "All the money in the world couldn't buy that feeling," he added.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2434 on: March 29, 2023, 11:52:30 am »
Thanks Andy, lots of learning for me to do. Though those links led me to "Militant's Trotskyist roots stretched back to the Workers International League in the 1930s and the post-war Revolutionary Communist Party."

I don't know what even half of that is. I do suspect some of those terms are bandied about to beat 'socialsts' with.

There are some people in Liverpool that think the militants were brilliant.

There are others that think they robbed the citty blind.
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2435 on: March 29, 2023, 11:54:47 am »
Rubbish, Corbyn came within a few thousand votes of power in 2017 and in 2019 he was stupid enough to listen to Starmer and push for a second referendum. The 2019 election was about Brexit not Corbyn. Given he had the billionaire owned press and even the establishment in his own party actively working against him I thought Corbin did an admirable job. His policies were actually pretty popular.

Ha! That's not just amnesia. That's utter delusion.
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2436 on: March 29, 2023, 11:57:58 am »
He's a Tory in disguise.

How can anyone with 'Sir' in their name be considered to be remotely interested in working class people.
Really?

Don't be moaning when Sunak is re elected, although I guess you think it won't make any difference given he's a Tory as you say.
What do you actually want, and how realistic is it?

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2437 on: March 29, 2023, 11:59:52 am »
Thanks Andy, lots of learning for me to do. Though those links led me to "Militant's Trotskyist roots stretched back to the Workers International League in the 1930s and the post-war Revolutionary Communist Party."

I don't know what even half of that is. I do suspect some of those terms are bandied about to beat 'socialsts' with.

My understanding is that during Thatchers managed decline of Liverpool, Liverpool council became radicalised into fightng back by imposing an unapproved council budget, hoping thjat the government would eventually cough up and cover the spending, which was aimed at alleviating poverty, I think Liverpool council was under the Tories/LD coalition at the time, but the militant Labour did well electorally and it became Labour ran.

Thatcher did not cover the budget and people in the council lost their jobs.

I think this is a fair and even assessment
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2438 on: March 29, 2023, 12:01:03 pm »
'

Is he the one that organised league wide help for the NHS?

Yeah thats the one, doing Johnsons bidding no doubt......;)

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #2439 on: March 29, 2023, 12:04:22 pm »
No time for Starmer, will vote for Labour obviously but he’s attacking the left in the party, stitching up selection with little concern for democracy, and generally allowing no internal opposition. The argument heard on here is that he has to do it to get elected, Id dispute that and think the Tories are in such a mess any competent opposition would have a chance to be elected, and Starmer rather than being a tactical genius has been handed a gift horse and just about hasn’t fucked it up, but that’s just my opinion,I haven’t got the time and I’m not really arsed arguing about it on here. I come on mainly for football. But a big problem will rise if he does get elected after culling the left


If Labour gets into power, which is likely with the Tories imploding and mired in corruption. Starmers culled the left of the party and historically they have been very important part of helping Labour Party actually govern. With the effects of years of cutbacks making public sector workers reach a point where they feel they can’t continue without investment and rising inflation, the unions being pushed by members to do something Starmer is going to need the left and the broad church, instead he’s been spending his time fighting yesterdays battles and culling the left to the extent it’s raising eyebrows from the likes of Claire Short. Bumpy road for him ahead if he does get elected

 

 

But who were Labour representing when Corbyn was leader?

The Working Class completely rejected him. I know it's the usual narrative that it was the 'wealthy centrists' that caused Labour not to be in power, but in fact there are several studies that have shown it was the 'Red Wall' and 'Working Class' that rejected him.

Did a great job with the youth and getting people engaged while turning Labours core voters against the Party (Summarised by Yorkie above)

A couple of articles about this if you want to read about it..

https://www.vox.com/world/2019/12/13/21004755/uk-election-2019-jeremy-corbyn-labour-defeat

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50543903

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/abour-why-lose-general-election-2019-results-explained-jeremy-corbyn-conservative-win-majority-374693
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.