Topic: Central Defence Thread

[Fordy]

I think both Stevie and Lucas will play less next season if we get the players Brendan wants, Stevie simply because being in the CL surely too many games for his body to handle, Lucas i believe sadly has lost something since his major injury and the follow on problems, i was worried when he first came back, before the lads timing when tackling was almost mechanical after the injury he was often booked for a late tackle where his timing had diminished. I think we will have Allen, Henderson, Texeira, Suso, plus other signings fighting for so few positions and Allen can do for me what Lucas did, not quite in the same way but just as effectively, i also think Allen is a better fit for Henderson.

No matter what though Lucas has been a great servant for this club so i hope whatever happens that it is handled well and with respect for Lucas.

If fit Gerrard will play in the PL and CL games without question.

[The Infamous_LFC]

Lucas is like Yaya Toure at Barca in my opinion. Great player in his own right could start for most teams and be a invaluable member. Joe Allen is Busquets pretty unknown under the early Pep years and people called it lunacy when he was sold to City as Yaya was a better DM than Busquets. This might have been true in a football sense but it clearly wasn't true in a team sense. Toure while being one of the best in the world in his position didn't compliment Xavi and Iniesta and Busquets did. After the inital uproar the fans appreciated Busquets(Joe Allen's) attributes and the play of the midfield trio.

Me personally while being a big Lucas fan I enjoyed Allen in DM very much. His performance against City 2 seasons ago was excellent. It was like Lucas pre-ACL injury. All action and plenty of pace. Look forward to seeing him play there more often.

[Mutton Geoff]

If fit Gerrard will play in the PL and CL games without question.

Read it again so will he play all the prem games and the CL two games a week Fordy i am just putting it out there, as for you thinking your opinion is fact Fordy 

[Fordy]

Read it again so will he play all the prem games and the CL two games a week Fordy i am just putting it out there, as for you thinking your opinion is fact Fordy 

Yes he will.

Don't know why we're talking about Gerrard or Lucas in this thread anyway.

[GrkStav]

You specified the aerial component as the defining component. If that's the definitive component, then we don't need a midfielder in there, just someone good at aerial duels.

I am sorry, but I did nothing of the sort.

[Mutton Geoff]

I am sorry, but I did nothing of the sort.

Fetch the popcorn

[istvan kozma]

Lucas is like Yaya Toure at Barca in my opinion. Great player in his own right could start for most teams and be a invaluable member.

To quote John w Henry, "what the hell are you smoking?"

[The Infamous_LFC]

To quote John w Henry, "what the hell are you smoking?"

I wasnt comparing them as players mate just comparing the situations. Thought they were a bit similar. Guess not hahaha

[Juan Loco]

Lucas was the preferred DM choice in December when Gerrard was out, with Allen/Hendo infront of him. Going forwards though I can understand why Allen would be the long term option there after Gerrard

To be fair, we were also without Sturridge at that time. To play Allen as the controller, we'd have had to move Coutinho from the left and into center midfield... The choice was Lucas or Moses. Easy call.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I am sorry, but I did nothing of the sort.

Am I misunderstanding this sentence?

So, are we ignoring the contributions of Gerrard (and Lucas) to the aerial dimension of the role, then?

I am sorry, I know you've probably forgotten more about football than I'll ever learn in a lifetime, but I just cannot look past that.

I know you won't bring it up, but just in case someone else goes there: No, the fact that Allen scored off a header vs CPFC doesn't mean he's got an adequate aerial battle game.

Allen, defensively, is not closer to how Gerrard has actually played the role than Lucas. Again, unless I am misunderstanding, that strains credulity.

[GrkStav]

You specified the aerial component as the defining component. If that's the definitive component, then we don't need a midfielder in there, just someone good at aerial duels. I was making a point that you can pick out any one component and say "Player X is better", but when you look at the qualities of the role, it becomes a different picture. Rodgers put Gerrard there to control the game from the middle of the field, not to break up play. So although he and Lucas are good at aerial duels, that component is of lesser importance than the ability to take the ball off the back four, hold possession under pressure, turn with the ball, get the ball forward, be a pivot in the middle to switch play, play first time accurate passes, get the occasional goal, and turn and recover if the ball is lost wide. Given those extra qualities, Allen comes out ahead of Lucas in the overall picture. That's not to say that Lucas is bad at them, but Allen is better, and has the added factor of being more mobile and quicker, which is a huge bonus in central midfield.

Let's cut to the chase: is there an aerial dimension to the role as Gerrard has played it? If so, it is part of the role. Its ranking relative to other aspects or dimensions of the role is a matter of debate. I didn't rank it highest, let alone exclusive (which your Glen Johnson 'counter-example' seems to indicate).

My argument is that, taking all components of the role into consideration, including aerial battle winning ability, there is no clear and unequivocal ranking of Gerrard, Allen and Lucas for the DM/controller/pace-setter role. Surely, when it comes to pace and ability to change directions quickly Allen shades both Gerrard and Lucas. In other aspects of the role (hold possession under pressure, turn with the ball, be a pivot in the middle to switch play, play first time accurate passes), Allen and Lucas are comparable to each other (functionally equivalent) and superior (slightly) to Gerrard. In the long-passing and goal-scoring aspect of the role, Gerrard is by far superior to both Lucas and Allen, although both are capable on the former, and Allen in the latter.

To me Lucas is superior to both Gerrard and Allen in recovery tackles and headers high up the pitch, even with his now more limited mobility. My freshest evidence is from the match vs CPFC at 2-3 and 3-3.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Let's cut to the chase: is there an aerial dimension to the role as Gerrard has played it? If so, it is part of the role. It's relative ranking relative to other aspects or dimensions of the role is a matter of debate. I didn't rank it highest, let alone exclusive (which your Glen Johnson 'counter-example' seems to indicate).

My argument is that, taking all components of the role into consideration, including aerial battle winning ability, there is no clear and unequivocal ranking. Surely, when it comes to pace and ability to change directions quickly Allen shades both Gerrard and Lucas. In other aspects of the role (hold possession under pressure, turn with the ball, be a pivot in the middle to switch play, play first time accurate passes), Allen and Lucas are comparable to each other (functionally equivalent) and superior (slightly) to Gerrard. In the long-passing and goal-scoring aspect of the role, Gerrard is by far superior to both Lucas and Allen, although both are capable on the former, and Allen in the latter.

To me Lucas is superior to both Gerrard and Allen in recovery tackles and headers high up the pitch, even with his now more limited mobility. My freshest evidence is from the match vs CPFC at 2-3 and 3-3.

If you want to cut to the chase - then no, the aerial component is not that important to the controller role as Gerrard plays it. We have central defenders for that, and pressing midfielders and forwards at the other end to stop the delivery. Just because Gerrard does it well, doesn't mean it's a vital component.

[GrkStav]

If you want to cut to the chase - then no, the aerial component is not that important to the controller role as Gerrard plays it. We have central defenders for that, and pressing midfielders and forwards at the other end to stop the delivery. Just because Gerrard does it well, doesn't mean it's a vital component.

Ok.

Out of curiosity, did we miss anything when Joe Allen featured in what was then the Lucas Leiva position/role upon Lucas's re-injury/upper-thing injury?

[trembles97]

I'm sorry, is Lucas now a CB option? Must have missed that trend.

[GrkStav]

I'm sorry, is Lucas now a CB option? Must have missed that trend.

Fair enough. Apologies for the inadvertent off-topic discussion. Touche'.

[RK7]

Because there was no pressure on the ball. You drop so that they don't play in behind you. And the problem wasn't the gap between midfield and defence. They were playing a long ball. The gap between midfield and defence was irrelevant at that point.


Not at all. If you push up, they play in behind you. If you hold a medium line, they can either play in behind you or play in front of you. You either push up aggressively once pressure is exerted, or you drop off when it isn't. We didn't exert pressure, so we had to drop to make any ball over the top the keeper's ball, or any ball in front means a knockdown away from goal, meaning the back four can squeeze up again. Defending 101, as the Yanks say.

This is the wonderful thing about football, so many different views and all have their merits. I wouldn't instruct my players to drop off as you suggest though. I think your going a little to far in suggesting a ball played over the top of the back four from the halfway line will hurt us if were any higher than the 18 yard box. The goalkeeper has to take some responsibility. Had our line been where Skrtel attacks the header then that goal does not happen.

The gap between defence and midfield is very relevant when defending long balls, the offensive team will look to pick up those 2nd balls in-between the 2 lines, had our back line dropped deeper as you suggested then the danger still remains but more likely from a ball knocked back.

All of it is could have been avoided if we were tighter to our man in the first instance.

[Draex]

I thought one of our best games this season was Lucas holding with Hendo and Allen either side, we pressed high up the pitch and really controlled due to quick recovery of the ball.

[fowlermagic]

Central defence would get a huge injection of cover if the rumours were true and we were after a Masch type midfielder who on his day could actually play as one of the centrally defenders against park the bus teams. Ideal for cover on quick breaks as himself and SG & Henderson would fill in if we were caught on the break. Might be a stretch but I always wanted some steel put into our holding spine against certain sides. Add another fullback to the squad and Masch you soon be seeing our goals against column getting improved on I think without losing anything from the attack.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Central defence would get a huge injection of cover if the rumours were true and we were after a Masch type midfielder who on his day could actually play as one of the centrally defenders against park the bus teams. Ideal for cover on quick breaks as himself and SG & Henderson would fill in if we were caught on the break. Might be a stretch but I always wanted some steel put into our holding spine against certain sides. Add another fullback to the squad and Masch you soon be seeing our goals against column getting improved on I think without losing anything from the attack.

Where would Gerrard play?

[Upinsmoke]

He's a proper Sunday league footballer at times Skrtel.

[Carly]

Ameobi is bossing them both  .  This is why they dont play together. So far they have both been poor.

[Flaccido Dongingo]

To fuck with any more attacking options in the summer, this defence needs sorted, we can play all the great football in the world, but this defence gives me nightmares.

[Redman0151]

Maybe people can stop blaming Sakho now and realise Johnson and Skrtel are just too inconsistent

[proudred]

Skrtel & Johnson are not good enough for us should be shipped out.

[Carly]

Maybe people can stop blaming Sakho now and realise Johnson and Skrtel are just too inconsistent

Christ I actually agree with you Crosby.  Johnson's been poor for a couple of seasons now.  Skrtel's goals and heroic last ditch tackles this season have masked over his non stop basic defensive mistakes. 

Crown starting to on Johnsons back now.