Topic: Terrorism in the UK - The Wider Context

[GregCharrua]

Sometimes the world we live in is so awful. How can we ever stop this sort of thing without living in a total police state and forfeiting our rights and freedoms? Must we just accept it as a the cost? Is there really anyway to 'stop' radical islam? It seems the only true solution is normalizing that part of the world economically/etc - but then I'm projecting a Western view of what is good civilization on a part of the world that holds perhaps a different and more fundamentalist view about what is good civilization - surely there are dissident voices within that part of the world, more 'modern' and western, but a great bulk of that society seems to favor a fundamentalist (if not radical) world view. Its like the pieces of shit in America that put Trump into office. Only even worse... I don't know. I guess I won't, ever, know. Hopefully people smarter and more compassionate than I am some day find the path towards resolution for the world's sake.

[jason67]

Twitter is a truly fucked up place. They allow all types of prejudiced and warped minds to basically post what they like as far as I can see.

While it can also prove useful, like facebook, it has also has some serious issues at it's core.

I think it's always been like this Phil, twitter and fb give these knobheads a place where they can be heard, problem is it's being egged on by the media.

[MOZ]

I hear this all the time mate but as I am not Muslim but I don't see much counter action to this awful crimes. I don't see enough Muslims trying to prove that or talk out about these awful actions.

Don't see enough if I am honest... just words  after and then it's too late.

Words after then it goes quite again then something happens then words - are the Muslim community really doing enough?

The majority of ISIS' victims are Muslims.

And the majority of Muslims are just trying to get on and live their lives like everyone else.

They have no more reason to shoulder the responsibilty for extremism than anyone else. I mean, how would your average Muslim living, working and raising their family in the UK be any better equipped to stop a terror attack than Europe's network of intelligence services.

[oldfordie]

Do the Liverpool community do enough "counter action" against the gangs in the city? Muslims are not an amorphous block of people. Why would you hear much about the counter-terrorism operations other than in the aftermath of an attack - that is how the media cycle works. And when actionable intelligence does come from the community, it is unlikely to be broadcast. Continuing co-operation relies on discretion.

There is a nasty undertone to the expectation that the Muslim community do more. It is a favoured "respectable" attack line of some decidedly unpleasant characters.

If you want to make changes to help the situation, it would be far more productive to limit the disaster porn rolling news coverage. They found one sap, and got wall to wall coverage globally. You ask why people commit these atrocities? The brutal answer is because they work to achieve the twisted agenda of the terrorist.

There is often comparison to the Blitz spirit in times of a terrorist attack. The crucial difference is that the media then downplayed the threat and the terror. Today, we will get days and days of coverage of the victims. The more heinous the crime, the greater the coverage. The media is set up to reward the greatest horror. The actual news of events last night could probably be reported in a couple of minutes, but there is air time to fill.

Some of the media coverage we get today is irresponsible. within a few hours someone interviewed last night explained why this attack was so well planned and how theres little we can do to stop it. how clever. just given a potential sad loner the info he needs to commit a similar attack.

[Fruity]

The majority of ISIS' victims are Muslims.

And the majority of Muslims are just trying to get on and live their lives like everyone else.

They have no more reason to shoulder the responsibilty for extremism than anyone else. I mean, how would your average Muslim living, working and raising their family in the UK be any better equipped to stop a terror attack than Europe's network of intelligence services.

Whilst for the most part that is true, I do believe communities need to do more. There is still a reluctance to talk to the police in a lot of ethnic communities. People have to be named and shamed by their own. You will occasionally get a complete "lone wolf" type but more often than not other poeple must be aware of their views. It's not enough to just expect the police to deal with it and shut your own front door as in the end it will affect the whole community.

[Cliff Bastin]

The blitz was during a world war between two major nations. This is rather different in all aspects. Even as much as the IRA were brutal and committed atrocities, they didn't use suicide tactics. The issue is on security and how to limit such tactics. Maybe a new system is needed, something which can detect such material before they even get near the arena.

[Macphisto80]

I hear this all the time mate but as I am not Muslim but I don't see much counter action to this awful crimes. I don't see enough Muslims trying to prove that or talk out about these awful actions.

Don't see enough if I am honest... just words  after and then it's too late.

Words after then it goes quite again then something happens then words - are the Muslim community really doing enough?

What do you want them to do? All come out and apologize for something they haven't personally done? Being Muslim does not make you responsible for some other c*nts actions.

[El Lobo]

What do you want them to do? All come out and apologize for something they haven't personally done? Being Muslim does not make you responsible for some other c*nts actions.

Aye don't understand this mindset at all.

As an atheist I don't feel like I'd need to apologise for some atrocity an atheist committed and used atheism as an excuse for it, much like I wouldn't if I was any religion on earth.

[paulrazor]

Aye don't understand this mindset at all.

As an atheist I don't feel like I'd need to apologise for some atrocity an atheist committed and used atheism as an excuse for it, much like I wouldn't if I was any religion on earth.

someone i know had a very abusive post on facebook about muslims today

you cant tar everyone with the one brush

was glad to see some laid into him over it

[[new username under construction]]

Aye don't understand this mindset at all.

As an atheist I don't feel like I'd need to apologise for some atrocity an atheist committed and used atheism as an excuse for it, much like I wouldn't if I was any religion on earth.

Is it more a thing of ...you're in the community, you need to speak up more about anything you hear? more than apologise for others?

[Wool]

Is it more a thing of ...you're in the community, you need to speak up more about anything you hear? more than apologise for others?

And it's still utter nonsense. Do you know every aspect of your neighbours lives? They don't have some kind of telepathic connection to each other where they know what person X is planning.

[Cliff Bastin]

Aye don't understand this mindset at all.

As an atheist I don't feel like I'd need to apologise for some atrocity an atheist committed and used atheism as an excuse for it, much like I wouldn't if I was any religion on earth.

When is the last time that happened?

Atheism is the truth backed up by reason. I don't see any reason in religion.

[TepidT2O]

When is the last time that happened?

Atheism is the truth backed up by reason. I don't see any reason in religion.

I saw a very good point made this morning.

We need to blame religiosity rather than religion.

Which is absolutely correct.

[Magix]

It is the same principle that some profilers want to apply to school shootings in the States. There they occur in clusters as further perpetrators are inspired by the reporting of previous attacks. John Douglas outlines it in this book. At times it feels like the media are playing the world's most depressing four yorkshiremen sketch.

It is depressing that the media can cover disaster to a depth their political coverage never reaches. 

I think the applied psychology is more involved here. Both school shooters in the States and radical Islamists share the commonality of wanting to go out in a blaze of glory, but the former's grievances are entirely wrapped up in themselves while the latter perceives a wider injustice. Reports of bombings in the middle east, Muslims being persecuted in the west et al would feed into their complex just as much. 

[Cliff Bastin]

I saw a very good point made this morning.

We need to blame religiosity rather than religion.

Which is absolutely correct.

If you are told that your religion is the literal word of god written in book format and you go to heaven, then it is easier to go the way of committing suicide attacks. What have you got to lose if you end up heaven. It is very powerful and potent.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

"It's so sad that somebody can do that," he said. He added: "The people who will be the most afraid because of what he did... will be real Muslims, members of the real faith who don't believe in violence."

Guy Garvey

[kennedy81]

"It's so sad that somebody can do that," he said. He added: "The people who will be the most afraid because of what he did... will be real Muslims, members of the real faith who don't believe in violence."

Guy Garvey

I think the people who will be most afraid will be the ones who were either injured or lost loved ones, who will be forever fearful that it might happen again.

[El Denzel Pepito]

My best mate is Indian. He's an atheist, doesn't believe in religion and neither do his family (not that it matters). He's not really dark skinned in any way (he's lighter than me), but you can tell he's Indian/of that descent. He just rang me saying there were three lads who squared up to him earlier today, on his way to uni, and shouted a load of shite to him ('Fuck off ISIS', 'thought you died in Manchester', 'p*ki', the usual stuff...).

This is what terrorism does. It's ordinary people, who may not be British, who have to suffer the consequences in their daily life.

Of course, my heart goes out to the families and the victims, they're the ones who've had to deal with this head on, and I can only imagine what the families are going through.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

I think the people who will be most afraid will be the ones who were either injured or lost loved ones, who will be forever fearful that it might happen again.

My best mate is Indian He's an atheist, doesn't believe in religion and neither do his family (not that it matters). He's not really dark skinned in any way (he's lighter than me), but you can tell he's Indian/of that descent. He just rang me saying there were three lads who squared up to him earlier today, on his way to uni, and shouted a load of shite to him ('Fuck off ISIS', 'thought you died in Manchester', 'p*ki', the usual stuff...).

This is what terrorism does. It's ordinary people, who may not be British, who have to suffer the consequences in their daily life.

Of course, my heart goes out to the families and the victims, they're the ones who've had to deal with this head on, and I can only imagine what the families are going through.

[alonsoisared]

Aye don't understand this mindset at all.

As an atheist I don't feel like I'd need to apologise for some atrocity an atheist committed and used atheism as an excuse for it, much like I wouldn't if I was any religion on earth.

if there was a group of atheists calling themselves atheist state rapidly expanding around the world by blowing people up then i would say that yes the atheist community should be looking at itself and trying to figure out where it is going wrong.

To be fair there are examples of muslim groups doing just that. But IMO coming out immediately after every single one of these attacks and trying to pretend its not a problem within islam is as bad as the likes of tommy robinson on the other side of the coin. Its like most peoples first reaction to these events nowadays is to look for examples of islamophobia to condemn rather than actually thinking about the victims, their families and condemning the actual event.

I am sick of the reaction to terrorism, the idea that good prevails and theyll never beat us. Tell that to the mother and father of that little 8 year old girl, and all the other families who have to somehow come to terms with this. Taxi drivers turning their meters off and chippies giving away free chips and that proves there is still good in the world...but of course there is good in the world, we arent stupid. But give it a couple of weeks once the memes have died down, the standing with manchester temporary profile pictures have gone and we'll have another awful attack. The heads in the sand approach isnt working. The problem is a problem with islam and pretending otherwise solves nothing.

Of course there is no easy fix, and any kind of fix is completely beyond me. But a recognition of the problem is a start.

[Marcel]

if there was a group of atheists calling themselves atheist state rapidly expanding around the world by blowing people up then i would say that yes the atheist community should be looking at itself and trying to figure out where it is going wrong.

To be fair there are examples of muslim groups doing just that. But IMO coming out immediately after every single one of these attacks and trying to pretend its not a problem within islam is as bad as the likes of tommy robinson on the other side of the coin. Its like most peoples first reaction to these events nowadays is to look for examples of islamiphobia to condemn rather than actually thinking about the victims and their families.

I am sick of the reaction to terrorism, the idea that good prevails and theyll never beat us. Tell that to the mother and father of that little 8 year old girl, and all the other families who have to somehow come to terms with this. Taxi drivers turning their meters off and chippies giving away free chips and that proves there is still good in the world...but of course there is good in the world, we arent stupid. But give it a couple of weeks once the memes have died down, the standing with manchester temporary profile pictures have gone and we'll have another awful attack. The heads in the sand approach isnt working. The problem is a problem with islam and pretending otherwise solves nothing.

Of course there is no easy fix, and any kind of fix is completely beyond me. But a recognition of the problem is a start.

I know what you mean, although I would say that the people trying to react with positivity aren't as bad as the likes of Tommy Robinson, simply because they at least have some good intentions.

[kennedy81]

Have a read of this then. This poor woman was caught up in an IRA blast when she was 10. Do you really think that what she's been through since isn't worse than having someone shout abuse at you in the street?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/23/manchester-attack-victims-needs-years-support-haunt

...
In the months ahead I had trouble blocking out the images of what I had seen and struggled to come to terms with the realisation that grownups could panic like children. When my mother planned trips to London, I was often unable to go, being struck down with mysterious nausea and vomiting. Curiously, no one ever put two and two together and it was years before I realised the cause of this “illness”.

My friend Tanya suffered more: sudden movement or sounds would incite severe anxiety; she later developed claustrophobia, agoraphobia and panic attacks. She became obsessed with unattended packages, the potential threat of which was on everyone’s mental radar at the time due to the continued IRA bombing campaign. To this day she will only sit in an aisle seat at the cinema or in a theatre. Tanya was clearly suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder.

...

[Magix]

I saw a very good point made this morning.

We need to blame religiosity rather than religion.

Which is absolutely correct.

But it's tricky to blame religiosity alone because both sides -- the peaceful everyday Muslim vs the radical Islamist -- see the other as the less faithful side.

[Mister Flip Flop]

if there was a group of atheists calling themselves atheist state rapidly expanding around the world by blowing people up then i would say that yes the atheist community should be looking at itself and trying to figure out where it is going wrong.

To be fair there are examples of muslim groups doing just that. But IMO coming out immediately after every single one of these attacks and trying to pretend its not a problem within islam is as bad as the likes of tommy robinson on the other side of the coin. Its like most peoples first reaction to these events nowadays is to look for examples of islamiphobia to condemn rather than actually thinking about the victims and their families.

I am sick of the reaction to terrorism, the idea that good prevails and theyll never beat us. Tell that to the mother and father of that little 8 year old girl, and all the other families who have to somehow come to terms with this. Taxi drivers turning their meters off and chippies giving away free chips and that proves there is still good in the world...but of course there is good in the world, we arent stupid. But give it a couple of weeks once the memes have died down, the standing with manchester temporary profile pictures have gone and we'll have another awful attack. The heads in the sand approach isnt working. The problem is a problem with islam and pretending otherwise solves nothing.

Of course there is no easy fix, and any kind of fix is completely beyond me. But a recognition of the problem is a start.

Good post. First part of fixing any problem is admitting the problem exists.

[Cliff Bastin]

if there was a group of atheists calling themselves atheist state rapidly expanding around the world by blowing people up then i would say that yes the atheist community should be looking at itself and trying to figure out where it is going wrong.

To be fair there are examples of muslim groups doing just that. But IMO coming out immediately after every single one of these attacks and trying to pretend its not a problem within islam is as bad as the likes of tommy robinson on the other side of the coin. Its like most peoples first reaction to these events nowadays is to look for examples of islamiphobia to condemn rather than actually thinking about the victims and their families.

I am sick of the reaction to terrorism, the idea that good prevails and theyll never beat us. Tell that to the mother and father of that little 8 year old girl, and all the other families who have to somehow come to terms with this. Taxi drivers turning their meters off and chippies giving away free chips and that proves there is still good in the world...but of course there is good in the world, we arent stupid. But give it a couple of weeks once the memes have died down, the standing with manchester temporary profile pictures have gone and we'll have another awful attack. The heads in the sand approach isnt working. The problem is a problem with islam and pretending otherwise solves nothing.

Of course there is no easy fix, and any kind of fix is completely beyond me. But a recognition of the problem is a start.

Can't disagree with any of that.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

if there was a group of atheists calling themselves atheist state rapidly expanding around the world by blowing people up then i would say that yes the atheist community should be looking at itself and trying to figure out where it is going wrong.

 "atheist community"

 

[jambutty]

My parents where born just aver 60 odd million people had been killed, my two grandfathers fought in the desert, grandad Evans was blown upstairs by the german bomb that destroyed the other side of the street, nana Evans had not long left the house with 3 of my aunties when a direct hit blew it to bits. I grew up with the IRA. I don't fear for my two sons.

Respect. 

The IRA showed what can happen when you give up the gun.

However, societies where life is extremely cruel with no comforts and death the only relief, can produce those who will at least deprive as many as possible from fun and introduce them to fear and horror.

[alonsoisared]

"atheist community"

 

in a hypothetical scenario...atheist people, atheist community, whatever.

[kennedy81]

I saw a very good point made this morning.

We need to blame religiosity rather than religion.

Which is absolutely correct.

This is essentially the same argument that gun freaks in the US use. "Guns aren't the problem, it's the people who don't use them responsibly."

There is no religiosity without religion.

[ohweloveyerbaldyhead]

in a hypothetical scenario...atheist people, atheist community, whatever.

You'd hope that eventually the world would be one big 'atheist community' without people feeling the need to believe in some higher being because a book told them to. No offence intended at anybody who is religious, the whole notion just completely baffles me.

[El Denzel Pepito]

Have a read of this then. This poor woman was caught up in an IRA blast when she was 10. Do you really think that what she's been through since isn't worse than having someone shout abuse at you in the street?

And people don't suffer post traumatic stress from being racially abused on the street? People, just like you and me, who leave the house to live their normal lives. Only to be confronted by whoever. One day, it's just abuse. On another, it's a beating. On another, it could be a stabbing.

You think these people don't live in fear in their own communities? You think being abused by people who you relate to as your 'own' community (in the case of my mate), isn't going to lead to some level of anxiety? Fearfulness?

I understand that post may not be directed towards me, and I've never once stated if one is worse than the other. Both have it hard and you can't quantify between the two, everyone is different.

[zero zero]

"It's so sad that somebody can do that," he said. He added: "The people who will be the most afraid because of what he did... will be real Muslims, members of the real faith who don't believe in violence."

Guy Garvey

Why did you post that?

[TepidT2O]

This is essentially the same argument that gun freaks in the US use. "Guns aren't the problem, it's the people who don't use them responsibly."

There is no religiosity without religion.

Oh I quite agree.  But religions aren't all about doing bad things.   They do many good things too.

I say this as an ardent atheist.

The religion won't go away (guns I suppose might) we can only hope to change the religiosity.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Why did you post that?

Why not?

Why don't you have a go at Garvey, he's prob on twitter, or even better the BBC which is where I got the quote from.

[thejbs]

What do you want them to do? All come out and apologize for something they haven't personally done? Being Muslim does not make you responsible for some other c*nts actions.

This. A guy who grew up a few doors from me, who always seemed like a reasonably good lad, went on to play a part in at least one bombing that killed 2 people as a member of the IRA.  Am I culpable for that?  As a neighbour and (at the time) a Catholic, should I have vociferously apologised?

Blaming Muslims everywhere for this is despicable.  If every Muslim was a terrorist, the human race would be extinct by now. It's a minority of a minority of a minority of a minority that can do something like that.

[zero zero]

Why not?

No need to be defensive. Your post could be interpreted in different ways. I was just asking a simple question.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

No need to be defensive. Your post could be interpreted in different ways. I was just asking a simple question.

Another perspective, another angle to consider, i.e. the effect the backlash has on ordinary peaceful Muslims and those who idiots identify as Muslims.

[sonny crockett]

The fella who runs that Sweeps Barber shop, John May that most will probably know on here was spreading so much wrong information and bullshit on Facebook last night. People just don't think before sharing any fake images and unconfirmed rumours they've seen because they're desperate for likes.

[alonsoisared]

This. A guy who grew up a few doors from me, who always seemed like a reasonably good lad, went on to play a part in at least one bombing that killed 2 people as a member of the IRA.  Am I culpable for that?  As a neighbour and (at the time) a Catholic, should I have vociferously apologised?

Blaming Muslims everywhere for this is despicable.  If every Muslim was a terrorist, the human race would be extinct by now. It's a minority of a minority of a minority of a minority that can do something like that.

literally nobody thinks every muslim is to blame.

[zero zero]

Another perspective, another angle to consider, i.e. the effect the backlash has on ordinary peaceful Muslims and those who idiots identify as Muslims.

Ah right. I expect ordinary Muslims go through the same range of emotions as the rest of the country do, with the added knowledge they'll be singled out, even if it's only by someone giving them a dirty look as they clock their headscarf.