Topic: Has 50% of the UK been abandoned by everyone?

[killer-heels]

Brexit Britain has three kinds of voter: disconnected, deceived and dismayed

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/06/brexit-britain-theresa-may-election-victory

I think John Harris pretty much sums up the feelings of everyone in this thread in his article here.

Edit: And this chap in the comments underneath captures my personal feelings.

In regards to that comment, the Tories are hardly far right.

[Kenny's Jacket]

People are all for living in a democracy until it goes against them and then all of a sudden it's protest this, protest that. Honestly, what would you reaction be if the stay campaign won and the leave campaign decided to do everything that the stay campaign is doing? Something along the lines of saying 'tough shit'?

You're wide of the mark.  The "tough shit" and keep quiet attitude you describe is more dictatorship than democratic.

[Skeeve]

On a tangent, I went to vote this morning. I have moved from a strong Labour area to a very strong Tory one and this was my first time voting there. Anyway I go to the school to vote, in to the school grounds and there is a man with a Tory rosette on his collar asking to see my voting card.

Is he allowed to do that? Obviously I told him to do one, but surely you can't have people other then the election officials, never mind someone clearly supporting a political party asking to see  someone's voting card?

He can ask to see it, but has no right do so and you can freely tell him to fuck off for doing so too.

It actually states on the cards that you don't even have to bring them with you to vote in any case.

[Skeeve]

What has fucked me off, as a remainer is that we didnt have to follow the referendum. Could Cameron not have said thanks but no thanks.

Even if they had settled on following the results of an advisory referendum then it would have seemed like a sensible option to require any result to have a decent margin of victory for it to become binding when it is a decision that will potentially impact us for generations e.g. it could have required a 60% margin or perhaps a majority of every potential voter in order to change the status quo.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

Even if they had settled on following the results of an advisory referendum then it would have seemed like a sensible option to require any result to have a decent margin of victory for it to become binding when it is a decision that will potentially impact us for generations e.g. it could have required a 60% margin or perhaps a majority of every potential voter in order to change the status quo.

Yes, he set the terms rather stupidly.

[Cliff Bastin]

I disagree massively about the referendum result due to economic reasons, it's massively stupid  to walk away from such a massive market.

at the same time I understand about  the fear of no control over immigration in the EU and that doesn't mean I'm racist.

it's stupid of the EU to allow such freedom. the EU should  mainly be about a common trade block and market place that improves the economies and relationships between members. instead it has become a political mammoth that will fall one day I'm sure of.

remove the bull shit from the EU, let countries govern themselves more and noone around the world would have problems with it.

instead their is a rising hatred towards it.

and in terms of the EU result and it being democracy, the question put before the people wasn't hard Brexit or not, it was to leave or stay.

I am absolutely convinced as day follows night and night follows day that if the EU had eased up on its immigration policy within the EU when David Cameron went to negotiation that the UK would still be in the EU right now and wouldn't be leaving. That was a disaster for the EU to not negotiate on that key issue.

Immigration is why the EU vote went to the leave way. I can't believe the EU didn't see this.

[ShakaHislop]

I feel deeply angry with about 75% of the UK; the 52% who voted for Brexit and, I guess, around half of the 48% who are taking the cowardly Labour Party "let's respect the democratic vote for a mental step" approach. That section of Remainers are complicit in the hard Brexit that looms large over us and no matter how they voted last year, they should take some of the blame for any job losses and other damage that ensues from that hard Brexit, or even a no deal scenario.

I hated it at the time but the argument from those people that Labour could not possibly oppose Brexit in any way because of a fear of UKIP becoming a serious threat to Labour has been undermined by the fact that UKIP, via a unofficial merger with the Tories, still remain a threat to Labour despite Labour waving through the unamended Article 50 bill in Parliament. Gee, it's almost as if pissing off the majority of Labour's 2015 voters, whom voted Remain, to woo Kippers wasn't the wisest strategy after all. What a fucking revelation.

Remainers (hi, Kier Starmer - future Labour leader according to some, jesus wept) peddling the "have your cake and eat it" identical single-market access+no freedom of movement fantasy makes me tear my hair out too. Whether that belief is a symptom of arrogance, thickness or some sort of coping strategy to handle the tramua of Brexit; I don't know but you're doing the Brexiteers work for them by telling the British people that this nonsensical idea is possible. Oh no, silly me, I forgot "negotiations haven't begun yet" so I should just wait and see if pigs do fly.

Brexit's such a shitshow and we haven't even got to the main event yet. 52% of this country have effectively thrown a coin down a wishing well and are expectantly waiting for their wish to come true; a sizeable number of people who are like-minded with me have no bottle and politicians from varying sides have finally unveiled their full cuntiness. Do I feel abandoned, yes, particularly by the Labour Party but I feel more strongly depressed about the current, and future states of this country and most of the people who call it home.

[ShakaHislop]

I am absolutely convinced as day follows night and night follows day that if the EU had eased up on its immigration policy within the EU when David Cameron went to negotiation that the UK would still be in the EU right now and wouldn't be leaving. That was a disaster for the EU to not negotiate on that key issue.

Immigration is why the EU vote went to the leave way. I can't believe the EU didn't see this.

It's a disaster for the EU that they did not give up one of their core beliefs to placate the spoilt child within their ranks? No, I don't think so.

[Cliff Bastin]

It's a disaster for the EU that they did not give up one of their core beliefs to placate the spoilt child within their ranks? No, I don't think so.

The UK is leaving because of it. Other EU countries stand a chance of leaving too because of it. You have to look to be flexible to keep something together.

[cloggypop]

I am absolutely convinced as day follows night and night follows day that if the EU had eased up on its immigration policy within the EU when David Cameron went to negotiation that the UK would still be in the EU right now and wouldn't be leaving. That was a disaster for the EU to not negotiate on that key issue.

Immigration is why the EU vote went to the leave way. I can't believe the EU didn't see this.

Maybe the EU had just had enough of the UK trying to unilaterally direct policy. Why should it give in to every demand the UK makes?

[Cliff Bastin]

Maybe the EU had just had enough of the UK trying to unilaterally direct policy. Why should it give in to every demand the UK makes?

Well it doesn't have to anymore since it won't be in the EU now.

[cloggypop]

Well it doesn't have to anymore since it won't be in the EU now.

I will be.

[oldfordie]

I am absolutely convinced as day follows night and night follows day that if the EU had eased up on its immigration policy within the EU when David Cameron went to negotiation that the UK would still be in the EU right now and wouldn't be leaving. That was a disaster for the EU to not negotiate on that key issue.

Immigration is why the EU vote went to the leave way. I can't believe the EU didn't see this.

I take your point but how many people knew we had more control after 2004 but we never enforced it.
We could have also claimed hundreds of millions in NHS costs from other EU country's but nobody bothered. it's about time this strong leader May answers these points. she was home secretary after all.

[ShakaHislop]

The UK is leaving because of it. Other EU countries stand a chance of leaving too because of it. You have to look to be flexible to keep something together.

Where do you draw the line between flexibility and weakness? Do you really think the UK would have stopped asking for more concessions after an end to freedom of movement? You seem to be one of those who think the EU's refusal to end freedom of movement will bring about its downfall, I take the view that caving in on that issue could be the EU's unravelling.

Bar one report showing a minimal impact on wages of only some of the public (and even that was spun more negatively than the real conclusions of the researcher), I have not seen any piece of evidence from Leave campaigners demonstrating the negative impact FOM is actually having on the UK. Politically-motivated newspaper headlines, and pub talk is not sufficient to demand a change of supranational immigration policy.

[Alf]

Just playing devils advocate here but Brexit was the biggest turnout of voters for a while, there is a general election next month and the current PM wanted to remain.

[Kashinoda]

The Lib Dems are there for the 48% and are the most centrist party - what more do you need?

The issue is most people are just fucking tired with this shit and want it over with.

The state of all the political parties in this country is an absolute farce, Brexit has just becoming a bargaining chip and they're all fucking using it. It doesn't matter what happens it's going to be bleak for years, suck it up.

[Currywurst]

This may well be the case. I was never particularly interested in politics, feeling that life was plenty rich enough without it. Now I've been forced to get involved in the murky business and exist with simmering rage in my guts about the disastrous path we're stumbling down. I would love to get back to my old attitude, but I can't see things getting any better for years to come.

What will future generations think of us and our blind stupidity? I'd love to be able to read a historian's comments from 50 years hence.

Edit: Oops, forgot to quote the original comment:

The issue is most people are just fucking tired with this shit and want it over with.

[Peabee]

This may well be the case. I was never particularly interested in politics, feeling that life was plenty rich enough without it. Now I've been forced to get involved in the murky business and exist with simmering rage in my guts about the disastrous path we're stumbling down. I would love to get back to my old attitude, but I can't see things getting any better for years to come.

What will future generations think of us and our blind stupidity? I'd love to be able to read a historian's comments from 50 years hence.

Edit: Oops, forgot to quote the original comment:

The issue is most people are just fucking tired with this shit and want it over with.

It'll never be "over with".  The repercussions will be ongoing.   There will be uncertainty for a long time to come, and there will be people and groups wanting to take advantage. 

The decision to hold a referendum was ridiculous.  Did anyone outside of UKIP and the Tory eurosceptics really want a referendum?  I think certain internal fights in the Tory party exaggerated the thirst for an EUref in Cameron's mind.   He put party politics above the country and above our futures.

[Xabi Gerrard]

We've not been abandoned. We've been given a gift from the gods, a get out of jail free card, with this General Election coming up. It's a chance for anyone who doesn't want this car crash of Brexit to happen to vote in a government that will either hold a second referendum once the full consequences are known, or ensure we have the softest possible Brexit.

It's simple. Anyone who wants to destroy the economy, facilitate xenophobia, betray future generations and remove the worker protections and redistribution of wealth that the EU provides, just vote for a party whose leadership wants to go full steam ahead with Brexit, such as the Conservatives, UKIP, BNP or Labour.

Anyone who gives a shit about the country, wants a brighter future for our children and doesn't want to see poverty worsen, then vote for an anti-Brexit party like the Lib Dems or the Greens (or other regional parties in Scotland, Wales or NI).


Of course, most people who claim to be Remainers won't - they'll vote for a party whose leadership is determined to push through Brexit. They'll do it for any number of bullshit reasons that pale in significance to Brexit - can't vote for Lib Dems because of tuition fees (talk about cutting off your nose, your childrens noses and their childrens noses, to spite your face), because they're always voted Labour (even though it doesn't represent them any more, but through some strange sense of loyalty as if it's supporting a football team for life), etc, etc.

So we're all going to be pretty much fucked. But we can't claim it's because we've been abandoned, we'll get the government and Brexit we deserve because we're a population of idiots.

[oldfordie]

We've not been abandoned. We've been given a gift from the gods, a get out of jail free card, with this General Election coming up. It's a chance for anyone who doesn't want this car crash of Brexit to happen to vote in a government that will either hold a second referendum once the full consequences are known, or ensure we have the softest possible Brexit.

It's simple. Anyone who wants to destroy the economy, facilitate xenophobia, betray future generations and remove the worker protections and redistribution of wealth that the EU provides, just vote for a party whose leadership wants to go full steam ahead with Brexit, such as the Conservatives, UKIP, BNP or Labour.

Anyone who gives a shit about the country, wants a brighter future for our children and doesn't want to see poverty worsen, then vote for an anti-Brexit party like the Lib Dems or the Greens (or other regional parties in Scotland, Wales or NI).


Of course, most people who claim to be Remainers won't - they'll vote for a party whose leadership is determined to push through Brexit. They'll do it for any number of bullshit reasons that pale in significance to Brexit - can't vote for Lib Dems because of tuition fees (talk about cutting off your nose, your childrens noses and their childrens noses, to spite your face), because they're always voted Labour (even though it doesn't represent them any more, but through some strange sense of loyalty as if it's supporting a football team for life), etc, etc.

So we're all going to be pretty much fucked. But we can't claim it's because we've been abandoned, we'll get the government and Brexit we deserve because we're a population of idiots.

Great post Xabi. I thought people who knew what is about to happen after Brexit would vent their anger at the next GE. now we have the opportunity of not only venting our anger at the MPs who let us down so badly we have the opportunity to stop Brexit, it looks like this massive opportunity is going to be wasted.

[GreatEx]

Yep, unfortunately people will be stuck in this blinkered way of thinking that you can only realistically vote Tory or Labour because "we need strong leadership". Because bigger parties have stronger leadership, apparently. We have the same problem in Australia - Liberals are having a car crash of a time, Labor is abandoning its centre-left roots in favour of anti-immigrant populism, but fat fucking chance anyone has the courage to vote Lib Dem or Greens.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Great post Xabi. I thought people who knew what is about to happen after Brexit would vent their anger at the next GE. now we have the opportunity of not only venting our anger at the MPs who let us down so badly we have the opportunity to stop Brexit, it looks like this massive opportunity is going to be wasted.

My MP is Maria Eagle and she voted against the Tories on Brexit (Despite stupid Corybns attempt to force her to vote for it)

[Danny Boys Dad]

We've not been abandoned. We've been given a gift from the gods, a get out of jail free card, with this General Election coming up. It's a chance for anyone who doesn't want this car crash of Brexit to happen to vote in a government that will either hold a second referendum once the full consequences are known, or ensure we have the softest possible Brexit.

It's simple. Anyone who wants to destroy the economy, facilitate xenophobia, betray future generations and remove the worker protections and redistribution of wealth that the EU provides, just vote for a party whose leadership wants to go full steam ahead with Brexit, such as the Conservatives, UKIP, BNP or Labour.

Anyone who gives a shit about the country, wants a brighter future for our children and doesn't want to see poverty worsen, then vote for an anti-Brexit party like the Lib Dems or the Greens (or other regional parties in Scotland, Wales or NI).


Of course, most people who claim to be Remainers won't - they'll vote for a party whose leadership is determined to push through Brexit. They'll do it for any number of bullshit reasons that pale in significance to Brexit - can't vote for Lib Dems because of tuition fees (talk about cutting off your nose, your childrens noses and their childrens noses, to spite your face), because they're always voted Labour (even though it doesn't represent them any more, but through some strange sense of loyalty as if it's supporting a football team for life), etc, etc.

So we're all going to be pretty much fucked. But we can't claim it's because we've been abandoned, we'll get the government and Brexit we deserve because we're a population of idiots.

It's unfair to lump Labour in with the Tories and UKIP. Labour have said that they will abide by the result of the referendum but that they would be looking to negotiate the softest brexit possible. They've also said that they would be looking to keep the protections that the EU has provided.

I'd rather they come out against it and I'd rather they didn't support triggering A50 but they are hardly taking the same position as the Tories.

The Lib Dems might be calling for a second referendum now but they've shown in the past that they will lie and U-turn when it suits them and if it came to a result where they had the balance of power they are likely to jump back into bed with the Tories again.

In constituencies where Labour is the sitting party or the main opposition to the Tories then a vote for the lib dems or the greens, unless everyone does it en masse, just splits the vote and lets the Tories win.

[Xabi Gerrard]

My MP is Maria Eagle and she voted against the Tories on Brexit (Despite stupid Corybns attempt to force her to vote for it)

You're very much in the minority of people voting for a Brexit party then - only a measly 20% of Labour MPs did the right thing and defied the whip and only Ken Clarke for the Tories.

It's unfair to lump Labour in with the Tories and UKIP. Labour have said that they will abide by the result of the referendum but that they would be looking to negotiate the softest brexit possible. They've also said that they would be looking to keep the protections that the EU has provided.

I'd rather they come out against it and I'd rather they didn't support triggering A50 but they are hardly taking the same position as the Tories.

The Lib Dems might be calling for a second referendum now but they've shown in the past that they will lie and U-turn when it suits them and if it came to a result where they had the balance of power they are likely to jump back into bed with the Tories again.

In constituencies where Labour is the sitting party or the main opposition to the Tories then a vote for the lib dems or the greens, unless everyone does it en masse, just splits the vote and lets the Tories win.

I'd be more worried about Corbyn's duplicity than the Lib Dems. Corbyn pretended to be remain, did fuck all to help the cause, was the 1st party leader to say we should trigger Article 50 immediately the next morning (or was he a narrow second to Frottage? I can't remember) and whipped his party into triggering it. That's a much more significant "lie and U-turn" than the Lib Dems on tuition fees.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

You're very much in the minority of people voting for a Brexit party then - only a measly 20% of Labour MPs did the right thing and defied the whip and only Ken Clarke for the Tories.

Yep. My hope is that people will vote for Pro-European MPs (Which is most of them) and they will throw a spanner into the Stupid Pa.. Sorry the Conservative Party's plans.

[Danny Boys Dad]

I'd be more worried about Corbyn's duplicity than the Lib Dems. Corbyn pretended to be remain, did fuck all to help the cause, was the 1st party leader to say we should trigger Article 50 immediately the next morning (or was he a narrow second to Frottage? I can't remember) and whipped his party into triggering it. That's a much more significant "lie and U-turn" than the Lib Dems on tuition fees.

Tuition fees is only part of it.

In my constituency Labour won it in 2015 with a  decent majority of nearly 12k. Tories came second, then bloody UKIP, with the LD's on 4.3% and Greens on 2.4%

If UKIP voters now vote Tory that gives the Tories another 5k and if Labour voters vote LD or Green that just increases the possibility of a Tory win.

My MP voted to trigger A50 even though my area voted remain and I don't agree with that or with most of the approach to brexit that Labour is taking nationally but I'm damned if I'm going to make a protest vote and help the Tories win a seat.

[armchair-fan]

Sorry to be a killjoy and ruin the premise of the thread, but there is not 50% (or even 48%) who have been 'abandoned by everyone' on this issue, as this article from the almost exclusively 'Remain' New Statesman points out.

If you don't wish to wade through it all, here is the key point:

The crucial figure for understanding May's decision to pursue Brexit is not "the 48 per cent" or "the 52 per cent" but the 69 per cent - the number who believe the government has a duty to leave the EU (more than a third of whom voted Remain). A mere 21 per cent agree that the government should either block Brexit or seek to prevent it through a second referendum.

"The 48 per cent" are not even united on the desirability of a "soft Brexit". Only 24 per cent, according to YouGov polling, believe it is more important to enjoy tariff-free trade with the EU than it is to control immigration (16 per cent believe the reverse, while 40 per cent, like B0ris Johnson, want to have their cake and eat it). Fifty two per cent believe May's proposed Brexit deal would be "good for Britain" (only 22 per cent believe it would be bad) and 61 per cent believe it "respects the referendum" (only 11 per cent believe it does not). Far from believing the government has no mandate for a "hard Brexit", 64 per cent believe this version respects the vote and only 12 per cent believe it does not. Finally, 55 per cent support May's assertion that "no deal is better than a bad deal", while only 24 per cent oppose this stance.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/june2017/2017/05/remain-delusion-48-cent-do-not-exist

As a Remainer who has long since come through the grief and anger stages of last summer, these statistics ring true.

So, a thread change to the 21% who have been abandoned might be an idea 

[oldfordie]

My MP is Maria Eagle and she voted against the Tories on Brexit (Despite stupid Corybns attempt to force her to vote for it)

Yeah, she deserves credit for a lot of things. stands up and fights for what she believes in.

[oldfordie]

Sorry to be a killjoy and ruin the premise of the thread, but there is not 50% (or even 48%) who have been 'abandoned by everyone' on this issue, as this article from the almost exclusively 'Remain' New Statesman points out.

If you don't wish to wade through it all, here is the key point:

The crucial figure for understanding May's decision to pursue Brexit is not "the 48 per cent" or "the 52 per cent" but the 69 per cent - the number who believe the government has a duty to leave the EU (more than a third of whom voted Remain). A mere 21 per cent agree that the government should either block Brexit or seek to prevent it through a second referendum.

"The 48 per cent" are not even united on the desirability of a "soft Brexit". Only 24 per cent, according to YouGov polling, believe it is more important to enjoy tariff-free trade with the EU than it is to control immigration (16 per cent believe the reverse, while 40 per cent, like B0ris Johnson, want to have their cake and eat it). Fifty two per cent believe May's proposed Brexit deal would be "good for Britain" (only 22 per cent believe it would be bad) and 61 per cent believe it "respects the referendum" (only 11 per cent believe it does not). Far from believing the government has no mandate for a "hard Brexit", 64 per cent believe this version respects the vote and only 12 per cent believe it does not. Finally, 55 per cent support May's assertion that "no deal is better than a bad deal", while only 24 per cent oppose this stance.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/june2017/2017/05/remain-delusion-48-cent-do-not-exist

As a Remainer who has long since come through the grief and anger stages of last summer, these statistics ring true.

So, a thread change to the 21% who have been abandoned might be an idea 

It's all irrelevant really. nothing will stop Brexit now, I did think stay voters would turn out in force to let MPs know their type of politics will never be tolerated in this country, looks like it's not going to happen so I got it wrong.I will still be voting Lib Dems and criticizing the lying MPs, this Parliaments handling of Brexit was a disgrace. they wont be remembered fondly in yrs to come.
We shall see how people feel at the next GE as Brexit will always be an issue.

[TravisBickle]

Sorry to be a killjoy and ruin the premise of the thread, but there is not 50% (or even 48%) who have been 'abandoned by everyone' on this issue, as this article from the almost exclusively 'Remain' New Statesman points out.

If you don't wish to wade through it all, here is the key point:

The crucial figure for understanding May's decision to pursue Brexit is not "the 48 per cent" or "the 52 per cent" but the 69 per cent - the number who believe the government has a duty to leave the EU (more than a third of whom voted Remain). A mere 21 per cent agree that the government should either block Brexit or seek to prevent it through a second referendum.

"The 48 per cent" are not even united on the desirability of a "soft Brexit". Only 24 per cent, according to YouGov polling, believe it is more important to enjoy tariff-free trade with the EU than it is to control immigration (16 per cent believe the reverse, while 40 per cent, like B0ris Johnson, want to have their cake and eat it). Fifty two per cent believe May's proposed Brexit deal would be "good for Britain" (only 22 per cent believe it would be bad) and 61 per cent believe it "respects the referendum" (only 11 per cent believe it does not). Far from believing the government has no mandate for a "hard Brexit", 64 per cent believe this version respects the vote and only 12 per cent believe it does not. Finally, 55 per cent support May's assertion that "no deal is better than a bad deal", while only 24 per cent oppose this stance.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/june2017/2017/05/remain-delusion-48-cent-do-not-exist

As a Remainer who has long since come through the grief and anger stages of last summer, these statistics ring true.

So, a thread change to the 21% who have been abandoned might be an idea 

 The thing is, Brexit is not yet tangible for most people. The referendum happened and then politics went back to being background noise for the majority of the population. Negotiations, intricacies of free trade deals, French and German elections... It's all something happening somewhere else.

 Now, when Brexit happens there's a good chance it'll be a disaster. I can't say for sure that it wlll be but looking at the evidence, I certainly think a lot of people will be a whole lot worse off as a result of it. And what we know about voters is that they're a fickle bunch. Sure, they might have stuck a cross in the box next to Leave, or said they wanted to get on with it having voted Remain and lost but once they feel it in their wallets, they'll disown it.

 Try find someone who supported the Iraq War when it happened. It was a huge amount of people who backed the invasion at the time but speak to anyone now and the chances are they always knew it would be a disaster. Never backed it. Saw right through it. Fucking disgrace was that Iraq business.

 The same will happen with Brexit if and when it goes tits up. People who were solidly for it will suddenly claim to have been opposed to it all along. Now, where are the politicians who can credibly claim they were on the right side of history when it all falls down? There won't be many of them. And given Brexit is going to impact our politics for years, if not decades to come, that is a major problem.

 

[killer-heels]

Absolutely no chance that the 50% (or 48%) encompass the same political sphere. Something like 42% of Tories voted Remain but they are having a great time.

[killer-heels]

The Lib Dems are there for the 48% and are the most centrist party - what more do you need?

The issue is most people are just fucking tired with this shit and want it over with.

The state of all the political parties in this country is an absolute farce, Brexit has just becoming a bargaining chip and they're all fucking using it. It doesn't matter what happens it's going to be bleak for years, suck it up.

The Lib Dems only get a vote for tactical reasons. Otherwise voting for them is a bit mad.

[armchair-fan]

Now, when Brexit happens there's a good chance it'll be a disaster. I can't say for sure that it wlll be but looking at the evidence, I certainly think a lot of people will be a whole lot worse off as a result of it. And what we know about voters is that they're a fickle bunch. Sure, they might have stuck a cross in the box next to Leave, or said they wanted to get on with it having voted Remain and lost but once they feel it in their wallets, they'll disown it.

You may be correct, but even the most dire predictions offered show that Brexit won't make people worse off in the future, but that they won't be as much better off than they otherwise would be.  I appreciate that sounds like the same thing, but it is much, much harder to demonstrate.  And 5 years down the line it will be very difficult to prove that any economic downturn is a direct result of Brexit rather than the usual economic cycle, or something else that has happened between then and now.  Unless Labour, if Labour still exists as a major party by then, has a very persuasive, attractive leader by then, which seems unlikely looking at in from 2017, I think it will be hard to argue the case Brexit has made you poorer, so vote for me.

[oldfordie]

You may be correct, but even the most dire predictions offered show that Brexit won't make people worse off in the future, but that they won't be as much better off than they otherwise would be.  I appreciate that sounds like the same thing, but it is much, much harder to demonstrate.  And 5 years down the line it will be very difficult to prove that any economic downturn is a direct result of Brexit rather than the usual economic cycle, or something else that has happened between then and now.  Unless Labour, if Labour still exists as a major party by then, has a very persuasive, attractive leader by then, which seems unlikely looking at in from 2017, I think it will be hard to argue the case Brexit has made you poorer, so vote for me.

How can anyone possibly make a claim like that, if the pound drops resulting in inflation then nobodys going to be worse off or if workers are forced to take wage cuts to remain competitive they won't be worse off, I could go on, it really doesn't add up. if Brexit goes wrong then people will be worse off in many ways.
I do expect excuses to be made for Brexit in yrs to come, how we have to give it more time to feel the benefit will be one.
It's not a matter of if Brexit goes wrong for me, it's a matter of how bad will it get, the answer to this is will their be an incentive for foreign investment in this country, if no major foreign company's invest in creating jobs then they must have good reason. something is badly wrong so how can things improve . this is the question Brexit supporters have to answer when they claim the economic downfall is not down to Brexiit, has foreign investment dropped dramatically since we left the EU and why did it drop and why do you think it will pick up in the future.

[RAWK Meltdown #1]

 Topic: Has 50% of the UK been abandoned by everyone?

I think that half the population voted Brexit, and that within the remainder. about 25 percent 'respect' the vote, leaving a hardcore 25 percent who didn't even want the vote and most certainly refuse to respect it, whilst there's breath in their body.

I also believe that had remain won, a similar figure would have evolved, namely...the losing 25 percent who would 'respect' the winning remain vote leaving a hardcore 25 percent who refuse to accept OR respect it, whilst there's breath in their body.

The fact that the margin was so slim is what irks I think....because post referendum, the 'winner' could have banked on the 'respect' of about half of the losers, and I think remain folks know this, and find it difficult to stomach with such a close result.

Naturally, this leaves the losing group feeling politically abandoned and unrepresented....and more than a tad unhappy with the 25 percent who have used the results [however narrow] to express a form of acquiescence, however reluctant.

The referendum was like a finely balanced set of scales which would not take much 'lean' to go hard down one way or the other....but once it finally tipped, the weight needed to redress the resulting imbalance was always going to be considerable.

THIS is what I now think remainers are up against politically.

The notion that there is still a 50/50 split of opinion in the country is a false one I believe. There WAS a 50/50 split...roughly...but that ship has sailed. I think that for all intents and purposes, it would be wiser to now gauge the opinion split as 75/25 in favour of Brexit.

This is how I now frame the 'debate' in my own mind, and I also ask myself if the political landscape has now adjusted or corrected itself to reflect this belief? I honestly believe it has whether I like it or not.

This is just my own pragmatic diagnosis mind.

I don't feel abandoned....politically, because I was always expecting a societal swing to the referendum's victors, followed by a political swing. I knew the margins would be tight....but the swing [either way] I never doubted for a moment.


My two cents