Topic: Has 50% of the UK been abandoned by everyone?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

OK. 48% of a stupid vote filled with lies and shite.

But.

Where is the representation from ANYONE for these people?

The Tories want their Brexit to destroy the country and fuck everyone over. I get that.

Labour could have opposed it. But went with the Tory vote. Tory all the way. Brexit - death the the UK.

So.

Who is supposed to be for pretty much half the country? Have we been utterly abandoned? Is it totally hopeless?

Vote Tory - leave the EU - country is fucked.

Vote Labour - Leave the EU - country is fucked.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Lib dems. But some can't get over the coalition so they'd prefer to vote for the most pathetic opposition party in living memory backed by a long time brexiteer.

[TheShanklyGates]

It certainly feels like it.

[hide5seek]

Yes, but a lot ask for it. Most polls say people want brexit to be sorted. This means a lot of remainers have given up and just want it all sorted. Then also look at Tory support, many of them are remainers.

[Johnny B. Goode]

It's incredible because really it'd only take about 5% of Leave voters to accept Single Market membership for a 'soft' Brexit to have a majority backing, and it's fairly obvious that at least 5% would prefer economic prosperity to restricting migration.

The fact that the debate has gone this way will be a case study for years. It's an absurd show of incompetence from the opposition and a sensational performance from those in power. Utterly unbelievable that they managed to shape the situation this way.

[oldfordie]

It's up to the 48% to demand to be listened too. they can do that on the 8th June.
Vote against every pro leave MP whether they be Tory or Labour.
Stay voters have been ignored ,they've also been underestimated, people seem to think Brexit is done and dusted were on our way out and that's it, couldn't disagree more, the news wont be good over the next few yrs and Brexit will be a political issue for many years to come.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

It does feel hopeless.

When Hitler came to power in the 1930s and the people stood by and shit happened.

Then we had the wars.

These arseholes can say what they want about the EU. But the EU have held peace together through states that fought all the time.

Another world war would be disastrous and the Tories and the media seem to be delighted at the prospect.

If I had kids I'd be more worried, but I had two grandads in WW II and one in WW I (Great Grandad) that advised against the insanity and evil of mankind.

I won't have to live in this mad world that the Tories and Corbyn had created because when the shit hits the fan it'll be the enslaved youth that couldn't be arsed voting. While the over 60s that won it will all be dead.

Ah well. Shit happens.

[TheShanklyGates]

It's up to the 48% to demand to be listened too. they can do that on the 8th June.
Vote against every pro leave MP whether they be Tory or Labour.
Stay voters have been ignored ,they've also been underestimated, people seem to think Brexit is done and dusted were on our way out and that's it, couldn't disagree more, the news wont be good over the next few yrs and Brexit will be a political issue for many years to come.

It simply won't work like that though unfortunately. Remain voters are split across all parties (except UKIP) and I highly doubt that many will shift their allegiances because of Brexit. The Lib Dems are the only major UK wide party opposing Brexit and because of our wonderful electoral system a vote for them may as well be a vote for the Tories in a lot of constituencies. And are Tory remainers really going to switch to the Lib Dems just because of Brexit? Then of course there's Labour which is practically indistinguishable from the Tories on Brexit, so a Tory remainer isn't going to switch to them.

What is far more likely, and indeed what the polls suggest is happening, is that UKIP voters will flock to the Tories en masse and Labour leavers will vote Tory as well.

It's all shit.

[JackWard33]

I've strongly pro remain .. Brexit is a nonsense and a needless self inflicted wound that will hurt the lower income brackets the most and erode workers rights

However tragically but I feel like that 48% is probably an inflated number
At the referendum every single major political party was pro remain. Most papers were pro remain. Almost every head of state and foreign political leader was pro remain. The vast majority of business leaders and scientists and celebrities were pro remain
The status quo and the easy option was remain.

And yet it lost.

If it was held again .... now ... I feel like the Brexit win would be more decisive.

So politicians are doing what they normally do.. and moving towards safety. May has done it to appease the right wing of her party and gain ukip votes. Corbyn has done it because he's been anti EU most of his life and faces a difficult split with his electorate so its an easy accommodation.

The whole thing is preposterous, pointless and sick making.
But those of us that hope for reason, more global unity, workers protections and rights, peace and stability and all that good stuff... pretty much get to be disenfranchised. Not too much fun

[mc_red22]

It's up to the 48% to demand to be listened too. they can do that on the 8th June.
Vote against every pro leave MP whether they be Tory or Labour.
Stay voters have been ignored ,they've also been underestimated, people seem to think Brexit is done and dusted were on our way out and that's it, couldn't disagree more, the news wont be good over the next few yrs and Brexit will be a political issue for many years to come.

People are all for living in a democracy until it goes against them and then all of a sudden it's protest this, protest that. Honestly, what would you reaction be if the stay campaign won and the leave campaign decided to do everything that the stay campaign is doing? Something along the lines of saying 'tough shit'?

[oldfordie]

It simply won't work like that though unfortunately. Remain voters are split across all parties (except UKIP) and I highly doubt that many will shift their allegiances because of Brexit. The Lib Dems are the only major UK wide party opposing Brexit and because of our wonderful electoral system a vote for them may as well be a vote for the Tories in a lot of constituencies. And are Tory remainers really going to switch to the Lib Dems just because of Brexit? Then of course there's Labour which is practically indistinguishable from the Tories on Brexit, so a Tory remainer isn't going to switch to them.

What is far more likely, and indeed what the polls suggest is happening, is that UKIP voters will flock to the Tories en masse and Labour leavers will vote Tory as well.

It's all shit.

I would have disagreed a few months ago but sadly it looks like your right.
The worry for me is this just doesn't apply to Brexit. politics has changed forever. bullshit has always played a part in politics but it's now over taken the truth. there are comparisons to the 30s but this time I don't think anyone knows how to fight it, were not talking about people on soapboxes or handing out leaflets on corners. social media, 24 hrs news broadcasting political bullshit.

[Sangria]

People are all for living in a democracy until it goes against them and then all of a sudden it's protest this, protest that. Honestly, what would you reaction be if the stay campaign won and the leave campaign decided to do everything that the stay campaign is doing? Something along the lines of saying 'tough shit'?

They've done more than that for decades. Why do you think UKIP exists? Why did you think Cameron allowed the referendum? They didn't let the 1975 referendum set them back.

[nick_8589]

People are all for living in a democracy until it goes against them and then all of a sudden it's protest this, protest that. Honestly, what would you reaction be if the stay campaign won and the leave campaign decided to do everything that the stay campaign is doing? Something along the lines of saying 'tough shit'?

This is such a bulshit argument, so basically the majority is always right and if you so happen to be in a minority then we'll just walk all over you?
What if  we had a referendum to detain and lock up every immigrant and it won by 2% do you honestly think that the moral thing would be to just give up at that point, or do you think that would be worth fighting.

The truth is direct democracy is basically a dictatorship by consensus, the tyrany of the majority was first used by john Adams in the 1700's and it seems it's still the biggest flaw with democracy some 300 years later, just because I'm in a minority slim or otherwise doesn't mean my rights get trampled to suit the changing whims of the popular vote, no one should feel any need to let anything they believe in go, otherwise why bother with opposition parties, just elect a government and leave them alone for five years, they won after all the other side should just "let it go right"

[oldfordie]

People are all for living in a democracy until it goes against them and then all of a sudden it's protest this, protest that. Honestly, what would you reaction be if the stay campaign won and the leave campaign decided to do everything that the stay campaign is doing? Something along the lines of saying 'tough shit'?

Yes we live in a democracy and the majority vote was to leave the EU and have a soft Brexit and ive no problem with that, it was a democratic vote nobody can argue against, I do have a problem with a democratic vote for a soft Brexit being abused and passed off as a hard Brexit everybody voted for. that's not democracy to me, that's a dictatorship.

[stevensr123]

the left has failed really.

people are sick of being shouted down and being called racists for differing opinions.  and the fact the current opposition party has went way left and are largely incompetent means it's been a disaster.

their needs to be a more central party created from the ashes of  the current labour party really.

one that is about true equality (instead of  just blaming everything on immigrants, the rich, large businesses etc).

one that at the same time helps the poor, but also helps the businesses creates jobs etc

labour at the moment has policies that are pure fantasy and don't know how to pay for it.

the tories don't help the poor and don't help buisness of the economy currently.

labour want to help the poor but also want to destroy buisness with high taxes and regulations, which will destroy job creation.

Basically the political system in the UK at the moment is shit.

[stevensr123]

Yes we live in a democracy and the majority vote was to leave the EU and have a soft Brexit and ive no problem with that, it was a democratic vote nobody can argue against, I do have a problem with a democratic vote for a soft Brexit being abused and passed off as a hard Brexit everybody voted for. that's not democracy to me, that's a dictatorship.

I disagree massively about the referendum result due to economic reasons, it's massively stupid  to walk away from such a massive market.

at the same time I understand about  the fear of no control over immigration in the EU and that doesn't mean I'm racist.

it's stupid of the EU to allow such freedom. the EU should  mainly be about a common trade block and market place that improves the economies and relationships between members. instead it has become a political mammoth that will fall one day I'm sure of.

remove the bull shit from the EU, let countries govern themselves more and noone around the world would have problems with it.

instead their is a rising hatred towards it.

and in terms of the EU result and it being democracy, the question put before the people wasn't hard Brexit or not, it was to leave or stay.

[ScandinavianPete]

You should elect Sturgeon. That should teach everyone north and south of the border.

[SP]

You don't understand freedom of movement. The freedom of movement of workers is a key plank of the single market. But it only applies to workers. The government had the powers to make all EU immigrants register, and to deport all of those that don't find work within 3 months. Those who don't work enough to support themselves, could be required to prove that the can support themselves.

The immigration issue is a failure of the UK government, and a failure of planning of the infrastructure to cope.

And of course the decision to not implement transitional arrangements for East European immigrants backfired massively.

[Millie]

You should elect Sturgeon. That should teach everyone north and south of the border.

Only the majority of us can't elect Sturgeon.

[Millie]

You don't understand freedom of movement. The freedom of movement of workers is a key plank of the single market. But it only applies to workers. The government had the powers to make all EU immigrants register, and to deport all of those that don't find work within 3 months. Those who don't work enough to support themselves, could be required to prove that the can support themselves.

The immigration issue is a failure of the UK government, and a failure of planning of the infrastructure to cope.

And of course the decision to not implement transitional arrangements for East European immigrants backfired massively.

Workers under Free Movement rules don't have to prove they are earning enough to support themselves.  All they have to prove is that the job is "effective and genuine" and not "marginal and ancillary"  (Relevant Case Law is Levin Case 53/81).  It is correct though that the UK Gov could have done so much more and legislated that workers must register - other EU countries do that.

[west_london_red]

Workers under Free Movement rules don't have to prove they are earning enough to support themselves.  All they have to prove is that the job is "effective and genuine" and not "marginal and ancillary"  (Relevant Case Law is Levin Case 53/81).  It is correct though that the UK Gov could have done so much more and legislated that workers must register - other EU countries do that.

Of course the government could have done more, but that would mean taking responsibility for their own failures rather then blaming the European bogey man which is what they have done for so long. Problem is by the time it came to the referendum the Tories had been blaming the EU for its own failures for so long that Cameron and Co couldn't then row back and un-brainwash the masses they had so happily misled.

[west_london_red]

On a tangent, I went to vote this morning. I have moved from a strong Labour area to a very strong Tory one and this was my first time voting there. Anyway I go to the school to vote, in to the school grounds and there is a man with a Tory rosette on his collar asking to see my voting card.

Is he allowed to do that? Obviously I told him to do one, but surely you can't have people other then the election officials, never mind someone clearly supporting a political party asking to see  someone's voting card?

[The Gulleysucker]

On a tangent, I went to vote this morning. I have moved from a strong Labour area to a very strong Tory one and this was my first time voting there. Anyway I go to the school to vote, in to the school grounds and there is a man with a Tory rosette on his collar asking to see my voting card.

Is he allowed to do that? Obviously I told him to do one, but surely you can't have people other then the election officials, never mind someone clearly supporting a political party asking to see  someone's voting card?

You are perfectly within your rights to just walk past and ignore him or if you want, to tell him to fuck off as it's none of his business and if he's insistent, tell him he's possibly illegally interfering with your right to vote and you will notify the Election Officer inside.

They are just trawling to see who has and hasn't voted and possibly I've heard suggested, to crudely gauge if they need to send a bus/car out to gather up some of their own supporters to come and vote.

A few years ago, with a scanner etc, I made a fake polling card just to show them and with an appropriate name, Mr Mind Your Own Fucking Business etc.

Childish I know, but it seemed to do the trick.

[redbyrdz]

On a tangent, I went to vote this morning. I have moved from a strong Labour area to a very strong Tory one and this was my first time voting there. Anyway I go to the school to vote, in to the school grounds and there is a man with a Tory rosette on his collar asking to see my voting card.

Is he allowed to do that? Obviously I told him to do one, but surely you can't have people other then the election officials, never mind someone clearly supporting a political party asking to see  someone's voting card?

Fucking cheek of it.

You don't even have to take your card to vote, it says clearly on it you don't need it.

I wouldn't show mine to some random stranger, considering it has your name and address and you don't need ID to cast your vote...

[jambutty]

A few years ago, with a scanner etc, I made a fake polling card just to show them and with an appropriate name, Mr Mind Your Own Fucking Business etc.

Childish I know, but it seemed to do the trick.

Boss, more like.

 

[Kenny's Jacket]

The Tories want their Brexit to destroy the country and fuck everyone over. I get that.

Thats just a sound bite Andy.  The Tories are not looking to destroy the country and fuck Everyone.  They will look after their own as that's how they stay in or gain power.

Labour will try and look after their, however under the current regime probably/possibly fail.  Its each parties "own" are different

By the way I say that as a Remainer who has and will again, be voting Labour.

[Lfsea]

The one question I would like someone in power to answer me is this.

Given the largely split vote on this (conceding that, yes, Leave won) why are those in power so absolutely desperate to abandon Europe as quickly as possible, without any proper analysis of what the future might hold, and generally unfavourable economic warnings about leaving blindly?

I also wish, beyond wish, that politicians who talk about this, would stop lumping me and everyone else who voted remain in with this narrative of "the electorate has spoken". No thanks, I don't want any association whatsoever with those that chose to break our link with Europe.

[kennedy81]

The one question I would like someone in power to answer me is this.

Given the largely split vote on this (conceding that, yes, Leave won) why are those in power so absolutely desperate to abandon Europe as quickly as possible, without any proper analysis of what the future might hold, and generally unfavourable economic warnings about leaving blindly?

...

The only thing I can think of is that their pals in big business have sensed an opportunity to make a lot of money in a post brexit Britain. And they've convinced the Tory high command that it will all be for the best.

I think there's also a mindset among many Tories that they know what's best for the 'peasantry'. Like a throwback to the days of aristocracy. Taking their cues from Brussels runs contrary to that belief, and I suspect that has rankled them for years.

[Kenny's Jacket]

The one question I would like someone in power to answer me is this.

Given the largely split vote on this (conceding that, yes, Leave won) why are those in power so absolutely desperate to abandon Europe as quickly as possible, without any proper analysis of what the future might hold, and generally unfavourable economic warnings about leaving blindly?

I also wish, beyond wish, that politicians who talk about this, would stop lumping me and everyone else who voted remain in with this narrative of "the electorate has spoken". No thanks, I don't want any association whatsoever with those that chose to break our link with Europe.

Thats fine, however The Electorate did speak, to leave, and you are part of the electorate. 

Its like the Scottish argument that gets on my nerves.  Scotland voted to remain in UK. The UK voted to leave EU.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

The only thing I can think of is that their pals in big business have sensed an opportunity to make a lot of money in a post brexit Britain

can definitely see the likes of banks and the other high profile brexiteer businessmen thinking along these lines, seeing post brexit Britain as a financial opportunity like the collapse of the soviet union

[Lfsea]

Thats fine, however The Electorate did speak, to leave, and you are part of the electorate. 

Its like the Scottish argument that gets on my nerves.  Scotland voted to remain in UK. The UK voted to leave EU.

It really refers back to Andy's OP. The narrative of the politicians is that there was an enormous, overwhelming groundswell of support for Brexit, that the country rose with one voice and said 'Get us the fuck out of Europe', which isn't the case whatsoever, and I certainly feel disenfranchised as a voter that lost out narrowly, that my voice has been totally ignored.

[reniformis]

The one question I would like someone in power to answer me is this.

Given the largely split vote on this (conceding that, yes, Leave won) why are those in power so absolutely desperate to abandon Europe as quickly as possible, without any proper analysis of what the future might hold, and generally unfavourable economic warnings about leaving blindly?

I'm not in power but I'll have a go. The Hard Brexit we fear is the easiest and quickest way to get us out. Given the Tories are lazy, entitled, selfish cowards, there's only one path for them. And you can see from their little quitler reactions to questioning and forced scrutiny that they want out asap because they fear a change of mind and that's their chance gone. To Hell with everything else, it's their life purpose now.

My only remaining hope is that this extra 100 tory MP's we'll have after June 8th are more consensual than the c*nts in the cabinet.

[Kenny's Jacket]

It really refers back to Andy's OP. The narrative of the politicians is that there was an enormous, overwhelming groundswell of support for Brexit, that the country rose with one voice and said 'Get us the fuck out of Europe', which isn't the case whatsoever, and I certainly feel disenfranchised as a voter that lost out narrowly, that my voice has been totally ignored.

Unfortunately thats the system.  We currently 48% feeling disenfranchised. The alternative is to have 52% feel that way instead.

The only answer I could see is another EU referendum. However the horse has bolted now I guess.

What has fucked me off, as a remainer is that we didnt have to follow the referendum. Could Cameron not have said thanks but no thanks. 

[Lfsea]

Unfortunately thats the system.  We currently 48% feeling disenfranchised. The alternative is to have 52% feel that way instead.

The only answer I could see is another EU referendum. However the horse has bolted now I guess.

What has fucked me off, as a remainer is that we didnt have to follow the referendum. Could Cameron not have said thanks but no thanks. 

It may be the 'system' but such a narrow vote (and as you mention, was an advisory) - to me - shouldn't mandate the leading party to essentially do what the fuck they want. Again, it probably sounds like naivety on my behalf, but it's more an emotional response to the thread title, than it is an attempt to rationalise it.

[Kenny's Jacket]

It may be the 'system' but such a narrow vote (and as you mention, was an advisory) - to me - shouldn't mandate the leading party to essentially do what the fuck they want. Again, it probably sounds like naivety on my behalf, but it's more an emotional response to the thread title, than it is an attempt to rationalise it.

Thats a reasonable response. It'll never happen but Id love to knowwhat the politicians really think.  Does Boris really support Brexit or was it just his only chance at the top job. What doesMay really think, Osborne, Cameron et al.
Apart from Corbyn with his 3 tier whip.

Are politicians pushing brexit as they think its in keeping with the electorate and to not do so political suicide.

[oldfordie]

The only thing I can think of is that their pals in big business have sensed an opportunity to make a lot of money in a post brexit Britain. And they've convinced the Tory high command that it will all be for the best.

I think there's also a mindset among many Tories that they know what's best for the 'peasantry'. Like a throwback to the days of aristocracy. Taking their cues from Brussels runs contrary to that belief, and I suspect that has rankled them for years.

I was very disappointed with the media for not challenging pro leave company's over why they feel these EU rules and regulations are so burdensome. am sure they are a pain for a lot of companys, so is the health and safety act. life would be far easier and cheaper for employers without these restrictions. i didn't see many employers grilled over this. no real explantions, am sure there some of course but the ones I heard were feeble excuses which left me in no doubt they have ulterior motives they know wont go down well with the public. this is why I think Brexit will hit people in ways they never imagined. working hours and standards re wrote by bad management to reduce their workforce and to make life easier for them personally, a workforce forced to do as they please when they please makes life very easy. this of course only applys to the the bad employers out their, the problem is decent companys will have to compete with these companys, they will be forced to implement similar practices to survive and as Blair said, employees will accept these new work practices as they will have no other choice if they want their company to survive and keep their job.
The country went through a massive cultural change in the 80s/90s,we were the sickman of Europe.
Management and workforce's were both inefficient etc.  we are going to go through another cultural change in this country over the next 10yrs and the Torys know they will come out if it with a different country to their liking. just the sight of Rees-Mogg being excited should have set alarm bells ringing.
We haven't got our country back, it's about to be re shaped into a country the right wing Torys want.

[TheShanklyGates]

Brexit Britain has three kinds of voter: disconnected, deceived and dismayed

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/06/brexit-britain-theresa-may-election-victory

I think John Harris pretty much sums up the feelings of everyone in this thread in his article here.

Edit: And this chap in the comments underneath captures my personal feelings.

I basically feel completely isolated, an alien in what should be my own country, now effectively shut out of any political decisions, voting for a party I no longer have any faith in in because the only other option is anathema to me, yet knowing that the party I vote for cannot win. Impotent might be a better word. And knowing that so many now feel jubilant because the far right has finagled its way into government making UKIP redundant, makes me feel outraged and depressed.
This is no longer my homeland.

[GreatEx]

In answer to the original question, yes. You're in the 48%. You're a minority. And we know what being a minority means. It means your opinions and aspirations don't count. You cannot be a part of the process. But when the process fails, it's still your fault.

[TravisBickle]

People are all for living in a democracy until it goes against them and then all of a sudden it's protest this, protest that. Honestly, what would you reaction be if the stay campaign won and the leave campaign decided to do everything that the stay campaign is doing? Something along the lines of saying 'tough shit'?

 Many prominent leave campaigners made clear that had they lost, they'd have continued the fight. It would have bored me and wound me up but hey, it's still a democracy isn't it? They'd have had every right to carry on campaigning for something they believed in so passionately.

 After all, they hardly took the initial decision by the public in their stride did they? They worked to overturn it and convince people they'd made a mistake, often by using total lies and scare stories. In the end, it worked.

 Why shouldn't we carry on fighting for what we think is best? Just because over half the population expressed a wish to leave, it does not mean every single person has to adopt their view as their own. When a party is elected to form a government, do the losing parties just go "fair cop", hold their hands up and leave the victors to it? No. They carry on pushing their case and fighting for what they believe.

 Same with this.

[GreatEx]

People are all for living in a democracy until it goes against them and then all of a sudden it's protest this, protest that. Honestly, what would you reaction be if the stay campaign won and the leave campaign decided to do everything that the stay campaign is doing? Something along the lines of saying 'tough shit'?

Yeah that's what I've been telling all my low-income friends in the US, look guys, you lost the election, you're in the minority (well, if you discount the 5 million illegal immigrant votes / people stealing the dead voter idea from Sideshow Bob) so just shut up and die because that's what the 46% majority want. Or if you're Filipino and your son was illegally killed in the vendetta against drug users, hey shut up bitch the majority wanted your son dead and now he's been murdered in accordance with the will of the people, that's democracy and it's inviolable.