Author Topic: Donald Drumpf - all and any ridiculing (or insightful) videos.  (Read 103265 times)

Offline theMilkman

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This guy's on fire

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/ujU9qLIDRf8&amp;t=29s" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/ujU9qLIDRf8&amp;t=29s</a>
"But the most important thing that we all must remember is that this football club is much more important and bigger than anybody."~ King Kenny Dalglish

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<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/ujU9qLIDRf8" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/ujU9qLIDRf8</a>

EDIT: Beaten to it on my own thread!!  ;D
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Offline KillieRed

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Yep, Miller is riding this regime as a career move like many people did in Germany from 1933 on. He is taking his chance to join the elite.  It doesn't matter what he believes,  he looks like a founding member of the Trump Fuhrer cult.

With Spicer you get the sense he doesn't believe either,  he just finds it more difficult to lie his way through, but his career and life will be made or lost with the Trump regime.
The best way to scare a Tory is to read and get rich” - Idles.

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I don't always visit Lobster Pot.  But when I do. I sit.

Popcorn's Art

Offline Alan_X

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Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
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Offline Gnurglan

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Read up on him. He won't crack because he is a dead-eyed far-right c*nt. He's spent his whole life being hated and bit giving a shit. He complained about Spanish language announcements at high school, didn't like sharing classes with black people or LGBT. He's worked for Michelle Bachman and Sessions in the past before being picked up by Bannon and Breitbart.

Horrible little shit who would have fitted perfectly in the Third Reich. That's not Godwinism.

He certainly seem like a horrible man. One who would say anything his master tells him. I think his "any time, anywhere" and the tone he used was shocking. Seemed like he had no substance and tried the louder voice to be more convincing. If he continues down that route, I doubt he will last long.

        * * * * * *


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Offline Alan_X

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He certainly seem like a horrible man. One who would say anything his master tells him. I think his "any time, anywhere" and the tone he used was shocking. Seemed like he had no substance and tried the louder voice to be more convincing. If he continues down that route, I doubt he will last long.

Don't underestimate the little prick.

How a liberal Santa Monica high school produced a top Trump advisor and speechwriter

Too-cool-for-school upper-class students at Santa Monica High scoffed when administrators in 2002 reinstated a daily recitation of the pledge of allegiance.

Most students in the liberal enclave slouched in their chairs and chatted over the morning ritual, which was widely viewed as a throwback to an American patriotism that seemed outdated in the multicultural mash-up of L.A.’s Westside.

Not Stephen Miller. Every day, the student body’s best-known and least-liked conservative activist stood at his desk, put his hand over his heart and declared his love of country.

That solitary rebellion of conventionalism was an affront to the left-leaning sensitivities of many on the campus, making him a nerd to some, a provocateur to others.

Now Miller’s brand of brash conservatism, fostered during those years at Santa Monica High, is helping to shape the next presidency.

How the People’s Republic of Santa Monica, as the city is sometimes jokingly called, gave rise to the skinny-suited man now at Donald Drumpf’s side is as much a story about one teen’s intellectual tenacity as it is about the backlash to liberalism at the turn of the millennium.

Trump made promises to blue-collar voters. Democrats plan to make sure he follows through »

The culturally sensitive environment at Samohi infuriated and ultimately shaped Miller, 31, now a senior advisor to Trump who is helping to draft this week’s inaugural address and will have a coveted West Wing office.

As he was finding his voice at Santa Monica High, Miller bemoaned the school’s Spanish-language announcements, the colorful festivals of minority cultures, and the decline, as he saw it, of a more traditional version of American education.

Yet that robust progressive tradition nurtured Miller’s rise, teaching him how to fight for his beliefs, even if it meant he had to stand alone, in his tennis shorts and polo shirts, as he often did.

"These challenges were some of the toughest I faced in life,” Miller said in an interview. “When we think of nonconformity, we tend to imagine kids in the ’60s rebelling against 'the system.' This was my system. My establishment was a dogmatic educational system that often uniformly expressed a single point of view.”

After graduating, Miller went on to Duke University and found himself on the far right of the GOP. He landed a job on Capitol Hill with then-Rep. Michele Bachmann of Minnesota and later with Sen. Jeff Sessions, the Alabama conservative and next likely attorney general who relied on the young conservative to help him defeat immigration reform in 2013. Miller also came into the orbit of Breitbart News’ Stephen Bannon and eventually Trump’s campaign, for which Miller became a trusted advisor and often served as a warm-up act at big rallies.

Hard-right conservatives praise Miller as a future leader, but liberals and moderates deride what they see as hateful, divisive rhetoric, an abrasive way of belittling opponents and a dismissal of the struggles of minorities.

It was the picturesque campus blocks from the Pacific Ocean where Miller engaged in his first political battles: in the classroom, where teachers didn’t know what to do with him; at the school newspaper, where he wrote an op-ed, “A Time to Kill,” supporting the Iraq War; at district offices, where he tangled with administrators.

Oscar de la Torre, a former counselor and now school board member who sparred publicly with the young student, recalled the frustrations of working with the teenage Miller on a district committee that was scrutinizing the community fundraising imbalance between wealthier and poorer campuses.

“Early on in life, he was on a crusade against liberalism and liberals,” said De La Torre, who grew up in Santa Monica’s historically Latino and African American Pico neighborhood and graduated a decade before Miller. “He just didn’t buy it. He didn’t believe the oppression existed.… This guy is 17 years old, and it’s like listening to someone who’s 70 years old —  in the 1930s.”

Trump and the GOP are charging forward with Obamacare repeal, but few are eager to follow »

Santa Monica was experiencing growing pains as Miller came of age at the start of the 21st century. The city was transforming from a laid-back coastal community of rundown rent-controlled apartments into an upscale celebrity and tourist mecca. But it still suffered from entrenched working-class poverty and on-again, off-again gang violence.

Samohi, the city’s biggest public high school, served as a laboratory for addressing the clash between cultures and rising income inequality.

These were the late 1990s, the years immediately after a mostly white jury acquitted Los Angeles police officers in the beating of motorist Rodney King, sparking days of civil unrest; when Latino students staged walkouts to protest Proposition 187, a California ballot measure that would have prohibited children who illegally immigrated from going to public schools or receiving government-paid medical care.

Miller grew up in the tony north-of-Montana neighborhood, the middle child, in a Jewish family of longtime Franklin Roosevelt Democrats. He played tennis and golf. But their status abruptly shifted when his parents’ real estate company faltered and the family moved to a rental on the south side of town.

A subscription to Guns and Ammo magazine introduced him to the writings of National Rifle Assn. leader Wayne LaPierre, sparking Miller’s interest in politics. The conservative ideas were like nothing he had ever heard.

By the time Miller began his freshman year in 1999, minority students were the majority on campus, and the community was engulfed in conversations about race and class. The district was working to improve the educational outcomes for all students, not just the wealthier graduates scooped up by Stanford University and UC Berkeley, in part by emphasizing an inclusiveness that has become a mainstay at schools elsewhere today.

Then 9/11 hit, and as Miller watched Samohi respond to the 2001 terrorist attacks — he says teachers and administrators openly opposed the Iraq war and mocked then-President George W. Bush — he “resolved to challenge the campus indoctrination machine,” he wrote in Frontpage Magazine, a publication from David Horowitz, the 1960s Marxist-turned-conservative author.

“During that dreadful time of national tragedy, anti-Americanism had spread all over the school like a rash,” the 17-year-old Miller wrote in “How I Changed my Left-Wing High School,” soon after graduation. “I decided to become involved.”

Miller contacted radio show host Larry Elder, the conservative African American commentator, becoming a regular guest and attacking the liberal bias he says he felt at school. He welcomed Horowitz to speak on campus, sparking resistance, as he tells it, from the administration.

And he began to garner his first national audience as conservative listeners from around the country called or faxed complaints to the school, much to the dismay of administrators.

“He would take the opposing position and almost shock people. It would send reverberations through the room,” said one acquaintance, granted anonymity to speak frankly about Miller. “He would sort of chuckle and enjoy that.”

Latino students recall Miller telling them dismissively that they would do better to work on their English language skills rather than spend their time forming clubs based on ethnicity. Some called him racist. Others remember Miller giving a speech questioning why students should be required to pick up their trash when janitors were employed for such tasks.

“For many people the things he would say and do were offensive heresies,” said Ari Rosmarin, former editor of the school newspaper and now a New York attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union. “He loved playing that role, loved drawing people’s outrage, he loved the performance.”

Those days were a dress rehearsal for his time at Duke, where he backed lacrosse players in a racially charged rape case that was eventually dropped, and then in the Trump campaign, where he helped shaped policies, including its stance on illegal immigration.

In a 2002 letter to the editor of a Santa Monica news website, Miller bemoaned “the rampant political correctness” at Samohi, including condom giveaways and Spanish-language announcements that he considered “a crutch ... preventing Spanish speakers from standing on their own. As politically correct as this may be, it demeans the immigrant population as incompetent, and makes a mockery of the American ideal of personal accomplishment,” he wrote.

Some of that rhetoric was echoed in the Trump campaign.

“That Stephen Miller would take the playbook he used to provoke Santa Monica High School students and turn into becoming one of the most powerful people in the country, I think that’s something nobody saw coming,” Rosmarin said.

Rep. Julia Brownley (D-Westlake Village), who was the Santa Monica-Malibu Unified School District’s board president at the time, remembered Miller showing up at events in coat and tie — “unlike any other student” — to argue against special treatment for immigrants and others.

“He had very conservative views — the exact opposite of what we were trying to accomplish in the school district,” she said.

The more opposition he faced, the more Miller dug in. “He was very brave at the time, when you consider the pressures on him,” said Horowitz, who introduced Miller to Sessions.

Miller’s willingness to offend provided an easy punchline for the student paper. For the annual satire issue, the staff crafted a fake letter to the editor from him celebrating the cancellation of club day, when Latinos and other student groups sold ethnic foods. It mockingly said he preferred white bread and Virginia country ham.

But in Miller’s telling of those days, he was trying to unify the campus, by resisting defining students by their differences and instead by their commonality as Americans. He said he advocated for the reinstatement of the pledge of allegiance as part of that.

Kesha Ram, a student activist who led “racial harmony” retreats and often sparred with Miller, said his views, not surprisingly, made him an outsider at a school where multiculturalism was valued and a white male-dominated society was challenged.

“Stephen really did grow up in an environment where he could feel what it was like for white males to feel like the minority,” said Ram, the daughter of an immigrant Pakistani-Hindi father and American-born Jewish mother.

“I think he was one of the first examples we all had of someone who really felt threatened and left out by our celebration of multiculturalism and diversity,”  said Ram, a former Vermont state representative who campaigned for Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders.  “I think it helped him to be a stronger advocate for his position to go to a high school like ours.”

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-speechwriter-santamonica-20170117-story.html
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
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Its all about winning shiny things.

Online Red Beret

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He certainly seem like a horrible man. One who would say anything his master tells him. I think his "any time, anywhere" and the tone he used was shocking. Seemed like he had no substance and tried the louder voice to be more convincing. If he continues down that route, I doubt he will last long.

Goebbels-esque.
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Offline Trada

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<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/f31otqid2wc" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/f31otqid2wc</a>
Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

Miss you Tracy more and more every day xxx

“I carry them with me: what they would have thought and said and done. Make them a part of who I am. So even though they’re gone from the world they’re never gone from me.

Offline Rob Dylan

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How a liberal Santa Monica high school produced a top Trump advisor and speechwriter

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-speechwriter-santamonica-20170117-story.html

Interesting article. But I couldn't believe they used Miller as a 'warm up' act at Trump's rallies...no wonder the people there were all so angry.

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<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/lUa_xD2jugc&amp;t=427s" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/lUa_xD2jugc&amp;t=427s</a>

They're struggling to keep up with all of this!
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Offline Trada

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Some interesting stuff in this one looking at some of the laws that have been reversed or will be reversed that have gone under the radar because of everything else going on.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/EI9A9RIt4zU" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/EI9A9RIt4zU</a>


<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/oAEJsE-TUvQ" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/oAEJsE-TUvQ</a>
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 09:58:37 am by Trada »
Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

Miss you Tracy more and more every day xxx

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A practical guide to resistance from people who have resisted successfully.  It's not all about marches.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/npZF5gJHhZM" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/npZF5gJHhZM</a>
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 12:36:27 pm by Red Beret »
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Offline Zeb

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The Daily Show's Make Donald's Tweets Eight Again extension for Google Chrome and Firefox is making me very happy.

http://maketrumptweetseightagain.com/

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Offline mattybeard

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The Daily Show's Make Donald's Tweets Eight Again extension for Google Chrome and Firefox is making me very happy.

http://maketrumptweetseightagain.com/



Installed. What a wonderful extension.

Online Red Beret

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<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/hsJxV94Jg1A" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/hsJxV94Jg1A</a>
I don't always visit Lobster Pot.  But when I do. I sit.

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Offline theMilkman

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I think we can ALL agree that guy's a fucking moron  ;D ;D
"But the most important thing that we all must remember is that this football club is much more important and bigger than anybody."~ King Kenny Dalglish

Offline Alan_X

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I think we can ALL agree that guy's a fucking moron  ;D ;D

Do you think he knows he's a moron? When he watches that press conference with 'Bibi' does he see what we see? An orange buffoon who's clearly out of his depth?
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
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Offline theMilkman

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Do you think he knows he's a moron? When he watches that press conference with 'Bibi' does he see what we see? An orange buffoon who's clearly out of his depth?

Surely anyone who feels the need to literally keep telling everyone else about how smart they are must also be fairly insecure about their own intelligence? I can't imagine he's watched the press conference, but he will most likely have paid close attention to the coverage of it. Whether he intellectually recognizes the extent to which he's out of his depth, having a rally after a month of office can only be the sign of a man desperate for some validation...
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 03:18:11 pm by theMilkman »
"But the most important thing that we all must remember is that this football club is much more important and bigger than anybody."~ King Kenny Dalglish

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He feels misrepresented by the media. The rally might be motivated by a fear that people are starting to buy into this "false" narrative.
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Offline theMilkman

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He feels misrepresented by the media. The rally might be motivated by a fear that people are starting to buy into this "false" narrative.

but if he genuinely thinks the coverage is a misrepresentation, which it clearly isn't because he's actually fucking doing all the batshit crazy shit they're saying he's doing... doesn't that also make him legit crazy?

Quote
Insanity. n. mental illness of such a severe nature that a person cannot distinguish fantasy from reality, cannot conduct her/his affairs due to psychosis, or is subject to uncontrollable impulsive behavior.
"But the most important thing that we all must remember is that this football club is much more important and bigger than anybody."~ King Kenny Dalglish

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but if he genuinely thinks the coverage is a misrepresentation, which it clearly isn't because he's actually fucking doing all the batshit crazy shit they're saying he's doing... doesn't that also make him legit crazy?

There are no shortage of shrinks to try and answer this question.  I suspect the real answer is both long and complicated.

I think "legit crazy" might be a step too far, even for Trump.  He might not be rational by our standards, but he may be rational by his own.  He's certainly reactionary - most of his tweets are in direct response to what he sees on FOX ffs.  He also has a short attention span, is easily bored, and with questionable literary skills.

He's not very.... analytical.  Everything is played on hunches and feelings and he's very good at reading people like that.  Say you paid a visit to a pub "psychic" for example; and they ask you a few seemingly basic questions and then give you all sorts of "information" about your life.  I'd say Trump is cut from the same cloth.

I sometimes have an issue where I can speak without providing a context for how I arrived at what I spoke.  I (try to) compensate for this by giving long, rambling speeches to show how I arrived at my conclusion because I don't want to be misunderstood. 

I see a bit of that in Trump - it all makes perfect sense in his own mind, but when he tries to communicate it... it's a bit like hearing half a conversation.

I think he might be a bit simple... not stupid parse, or "retarded"; this is just stuff he's never needed to learn and he doesn't understand it or why he needs to learn it.  Like a 2 year old who doesn't understand why there's a gate that keeps him out of the kitchen.

I don't think he's crazy.  But he IS emotionally unstable, and that counts as mentally ill.  Here's a link to a very helpful and easy to read document on Borderline Personality Disorder, aka Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder.  This is what I have.  Not saying Trump has this but you may find some of what is in here interesting.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/25199725/Mentalisation%20Document.pdf
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Offline Redcap

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He's not crazy in the sense that people with personality disorders are not per se, crazy. They don't suffer from hallucinations, they don't have multiple personalities, they aren't deluded into thinking they're an egg that's been dropped on the floor.

But they do have maladaptive, recognisable patterns of cognition and behaviour. Narcissistic personality disorder describes Trump well.

Wikipedia's introductory paragraph describes narcissistic personality disorder as follows:

"a long-term pattern of abnormal behavior characterized by exaggerated feelings of self-importance, an excessive need for admiration, and a lack of understanding of others' feelings.[4][5] People affected by it often spend a lot of time thinking about achieving power or success, or about their appearance. They often take advantage of the people around them. The behavior typically begins by early adulthood, and occurs across a variety of situations."

Sounds about right, no?

It's not been mentioned as much, but he also fits the description for antisocial personality disorder (i.e. what sociopaths have) pretty well. Wikipedia again:

Antisocial personality disorder (ASPD), also known as dissocial personality disorder (DPD) and sociopathy, is a personality disorder, characterized by a pervasive pattern of disregard for, or violation of, the rights of others. An impoverished moral sense or conscience is often apparent, as well as a history of crime, legal problems, or impulsive and aggressive behavior.[1][2]

Consider the descriptors of antisocial personality, as provided by the DSM IV below:

A) A pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others, occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three or more of the following:
* failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
* deception, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;
* impulsivity or failure to plan ahead;
* irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
* reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
* consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;
* lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.

I don't know about his behaviour in his business career, but as a politician he appears to tick almost all of these boxes.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 11:04:56 pm by Redcap »

Offline Trada

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<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/Ar-XQGtoB6o" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/Ar-XQGtoB6o</a>
Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

Miss you Tracy more and more every day xxx

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Offline Caligula?

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I've really enjoyed Colbert's show as of late, he's really putting out all the stops in going after Trump.

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They're all going after him.  Every big hitter in the book.  I've not even had a chance to watch this one yet but it's responding to the press conference so should be interesting.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/Ar-XQGtoB6o" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/Ar-XQGtoB6o</a>
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Popcorn's Art

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<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/G8BXFfZCWEA" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/G8BXFfZCWEA</a>
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Offline Gnurglan

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:D
I can't get enough of this. When Trump said 'I watch CNN' and then three seconds later says 'I don't watch it anymore'... you couldn't make this shit up.

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline theMilkman

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:D
I can't get enough of this. When Trump said 'I watch CNN' and then three seconds later says 'I don't watch it anymore'... you couldn't make this shit up.

"the leaks are absolutely real, the news is fake". that's not paraphrasing, he said those exact words...  :rollseyes :rollseyes :rollseyes
"But the most important thing that we all must remember is that this football club is much more important and bigger than anybody."~ King Kenny Dalglish

Offline stoa

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"the leaks are absolutely real, the news is fake". that's not paraphrasing, he said those exact words...  :rollseyes :rollseyes :rollseyes

You left out that he followed that up with "because so much of the news is fake..." ;D

Offline Alan_X

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"the leaks are absolutely real, the news is fake". that's not paraphrasing, he said those exact words...  :rollseyes :rollseyes :rollseyes

He has the best words...
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline Phil M

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He has the best words...

He has tremendous words.
It's true to say that if Shankly had told us to invade Poland we'd be queuing up 10 deep all the way from Anfield to the Pier Head.

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My Twitter

Last time I went there I saw masturbating chimpanzees. Whether you think that's worthy of £22 is up to you. All I'll say is I now have an annual pass.

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"the leaks are absolutely real, the news is fake". that's not paraphrasing, he said those exact words...  :rollseyes :rollseyes :rollseyes

I think that's Trump-speak for the "spin" the media puts on the leaks; as if the leaks on their own wouldn't be that damaging and it's the media's disapproval of what is being done that is the problem.
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Bigly words.

I guess it was the biggest amount of words used since Ronald Reagan.

Offline theMilkman

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I think that's Trump-speak for the "spin" the media puts on the leaks; as if the leaks on their own wouldn't be that damaging and it's the media's disapproval of what is being done that is the problem.

quite possibly. But that's still a blatant lie and he refers to any story that makes him look bad, which is practically every story that references actual things he's said, as fake news. And he's the President of the United States... he could learn to speak in complete fucking sentences so at least we know which lie to address.

Jake Tapper described it best: Unhinged
« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 08:06:52 pm by theMilkman »
"But the most important thing that we all must remember is that this football club is much more important and bigger than anybody."~ King Kenny Dalglish

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well if by "unhinged" Tapper means Trump is pissed because he thinks people should be thanking him for all the great things he is doing and should shut up and stop asking questions then I definitely agree.
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Offline theMilkman

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well if by "unhinged" Tapper means Trump is pissed because he thinks people should be thanking him for all the great things he is doing and should shut up and stop asking questions then I definitely agree.

i think he means deranged.
"But the most important thing that we all must remember is that this football club is much more important and bigger than anybody."~ King Kenny Dalglish

Offline Trada

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I think my favorite line was "No you inherited a fortune, we elected a mess"
Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

Miss you Tracy more and more every day xxx

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Offline Gnurglan

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I think my favorite line was "No you inherited a fortune, we elected a mess"

That was a good one. The hits just keep on coming. And I can still recall how comedians thought Clinton was a gold mine for comedy. They couldn't believe it when Bush came. Now it must be their Eldorado.

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez