Poll

The incoming Tory Tax Cuts..

Brilliant! With everyone struggling at the moment, a few hundred quid would be most welcome
Maybe a small one, but money should be spent on failing public services
I am an egg and I like cheese and fluffy squirrels called Bob. Bob the Fluffy squirrel is my fave babes.
There shouldn't be a tax cut when public services are already so broken. Keep spending what we are
Far more investment is needed in this country. Spend the money where it's needed now and fuck this stupid Austerity shite.

Author Topic: Never mind 'Stop the Boats' - STOP THE TORIES  (Read 1294151 times)

Offline Nobby Reserve

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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12120 on: August 12, 2022, 05:22:10 pm »
Not to go full nerd but are we saying that the aristocracy are effectively the Borg? Resistance is futile and all that!

Is there an argument that the working class/normal society is much slower to adapt in the face of change? That if we were more agile then fighting back could be easier and it would then be possible to get a better footing to bring about change?


I think for most human beings there's the notion of subconsciously believing in a hierarchy.

Men follow leaders. The 'alpha male' principle.

Much of the aristocracy - assisted by the attitudes instilled in them at the top public schools - have it drilled in to them that they are born to rule the plebs. The ones with that alpha-tendency will obviously find that easier.

For their part, many plebs are happy to just be led. I don't know whether this is a British cultural thing or if it's just a British manifestation of a more universal trait, but this country does suffer from a horrible 'tug your forelock' tendency amongst swathes of the population. An instinct to view the wealthy and the aristocracy as their 'betters'. This helps explain why working class people vote for a party that wants to dry-fuck them up the arse. And why they snipe at, say, public sector workers for earning x-amount or having a moderately decent pension, yet cheer on some company executive pocketing a 7-figure salary package.

A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline Mahern

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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12121 on: August 12, 2022, 05:23:06 pm »
As to the institutions, that probably depends which ones: I assume they are not all identical. I know (mostly in passing) a lot of people who went to Eton. Almost without exception, they see themselves as the rightful elite, and those with the capacity to reflect report that they were groomed and trained and schooled to behave in this way at Eton. It is a school dedicated to producing the super-confident ruling class, and it does it extremely well. These same people are then funnelled to Oxford and Cambridge (and many of them, I would add, are not particularly intelligent. They are trained to be articulate and self-confident, which can give the impression of intelligence), where the process continues.

Intelligence or no, they would have to be good at their chosen subject for acceptance at Oxbridge. Like elite. That or be Olympic standard at rowing.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12122 on: August 12, 2022, 05:24:22 pm »
Marilyn Manson attended a private school. Does that make him a 'goff'?
:D
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Offline Mahern

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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12123 on: August 12, 2022, 05:26:32 pm »

I think for most human beings there's the notion of subconsciously believing in a hierarchy.

Men follow leaders. The 'alpha male' principle.

Much of the aristocracy - assisted by the attitudes instilled in them at the top public schools - have it drilled in to them that they are born to rule the plebs. The ones with that alpha-tendency will obviously find that easier.

For their part, many plebs are happy to just be led. I don't know whether this is a British cultural thing or if it's just a British manifestation of a more universal trait, but this country does suffer from a horrible 'tug your forelock' tendency amongst swathes of the population. An instinct to view the wealthy and the aristocracy as their 'betters'. This helps explain why working class people vote for a party that wants to dry-fuck them up the arse. And why they snipe at, say, public sector workers for earning x-amount or having a moderately decent pension, yet cheer on some company executive pocketing a 7-figure salary package.



I would love to get YorkyKopite's take on this. I believe it is ingrained specifically into the English psyche as a hangover from Norman times and in later years landlordism.

Offline Nobby Reserve

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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12124 on: August 12, 2022, 05:28:43 pm »
Intelligence or no, they would have to be good at their chosen subject for acceptance at Oxbridge. Like elite. That or be Olympic standard at rowing.


Eton and Winchester both currently get around a third of their leavers into Oxbridge. Westminster is at 50% (with about 10% going to top US colleges).

All used to have much higher Oxbridge admission rates before efforts to make entry more meritocratic (certainly higher amongst those now in that 40-60 age range that are in positions of power right now)

A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12125 on: August 12, 2022, 05:30:01 pm »
Not to get too pedantic, Public School was a status given to 7 famous schools as a result of a nineteenth century act. Other schools gained that status over time. However you are probably right that most people form their impressions from one of the original 7, namely Charterhouse, Eton, Harrow, Rugby, Shrewsbury, Westminster and Winchester. And they would be right. These are highly prestigious and notoriously snooty places.
Actually, since you mention Rugby, that's prompted a memory. Although not close friends - and somewhat contrary to my earlier comments - some 25 odd years ago I did socialise quite a lot with a fella who attended Rugby - he was good lad. Very likable.
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Offline Mahern

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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12126 on: August 12, 2022, 05:32:20 pm »

Eton and Winchester both currently get around a third of their leavers into Oxbridge. Westminster is at 50% (with about 10% going to top US colleges).

All used to have much higher Oxbridge admission rates before efforts to make entry more meritocratic (certainly higher amongst those now in that 40-60 age range that are in positions of power right now)



Right. So now that the processes are more meritocratic, surely that means having to be elite at chosen subject rings even more true?

Offline ianburns252

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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12127 on: August 12, 2022, 05:34:24 pm »

I think for most human beings there's the notion of subconsciously believing in a hierarchy.

Men follow leaders. The 'alpha male' principle.

Much of the aristocracy - assisted by the attitudes instilled in them at the top public schools - have it drilled in to them that they are born to rule the plebs. The ones with that alpha-tendency will obviously find that easier.

For their part, many plebs are happy to just be led. I don't know whether this is a British cultural thing or if it's just a British manifestation of a more universal trait, but this country does suffer from a horrible 'tug your forelock' tendency amongst swathes of the population. An instinct to view the wealthy and the aristocracy as their 'betters'. This helps explain why working class people vote for a party that wants to dry-fuck them up the arse. And why they snipe at, say, public sector workers for earning x-amount or having a moderately decent pension, yet cheer on some company executive pocketing a 7-figure salary package.

I get that - and maybe it is in part because most companies will need hierarchy to function so it is naturally a part of your day to day life. I don't mean in terms of billionaire CEOs but even within departments in the lower levels of a firm there will still be reporting structures.

I'm not convinced it is a solely British thing - but I have no data other than gut feeling to go off. Maybe I just don't want to believe that we can be so stupid and others aren't!

The frustrating thing isn't so much the forelock tugging but its also the nose thumbing at those who probably are more deserving of the tug - if you get what I mean? Habit and history almost have taught people that the rich, whilst not necessarily are our betters, are born to rule and so if you are rich, or in a position such as MP (whether good at it or not) you automatically get treated as such.

What is does though is that they disregard and push back against the educated - scientists (COVID, climate change etc) doctors etc. and see these people as trying to ruin things almost.

Offline Ma Vie en Rouge

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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12128 on: August 12, 2022, 05:36:43 pm »
Intelligence or no, they would have to be good at their chosen subject for acceptance at Oxbridge. Like elite. That or be Olympic standard at rowing.

That really is (or was) not the case, I can assure you. Plenty of dull tools at Oxbridge, grinning their way through life at garden parties and getting ready for their next Pater-facilitated placement. Like most other parts of establishment life, the network gets you through.


Offline Mahern

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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12129 on: August 12, 2022, 05:36:49 pm »
Actually, since you mention Rugby, that's prompted a memory. Although not close friends - and somewhat contrary to my earlier comments - some 25 odd years ago I did socialise quite a lot with a fella who attended Rugby - he was good lad. Very likable.

I'm sure even those 7 schools I mentioned have some very likable and sound individuals. I think we're saying that all the traits we don't like are more likely to manifest in their alumni than of other public/independent schools and even less so of state schools.

But yeah, a reminder again to all, find as you see.

Offline ianburns252

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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12130 on: August 12, 2022, 05:39:52 pm »
I'm sure even those 7 schools I mentioned have some very likable and sound individuals. I think we're saying that all the traits we don't like are more likely to manifest in their alumni than of other public/independent schools and even less so of state schools.

But yeah, a reminder again to all, find as you see.

If our politicians were half as mature as the lot of us...well they'd still be pretty fucking immature! But on what is a divisive and sensitive topic where there is disagreement we have all got through, been open minded, and reached more or less a consensus.

How easy we make the world seem, eh?

Offline Mahern

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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12131 on: August 12, 2022, 05:40:58 pm »
That really is (or was) not the case, I can assure you. Plenty of dull tools at Oxbridge, grinning their way through life at garden parties and getting ready for their next Pater-facilitated placement. Like most other parts of establishment life, the network gets you through.



I think you're conflating their subject matter excellence with general all round intelligence, whereas I thought I made that distinction.

But no problem, I agree, and I can assure you there are many people like that.

Offline Mahern

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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12132 on: August 12, 2022, 05:48:04 pm »
If our politicians were half as mature as the lot of us...well they'd still be pretty fucking immature! But on what is a divisive and sensitive topic where there is disagreement we have all got through, been open minded, and reached more or less a consensus.

How easy we make the world seem, eh?

If they were half as mature as us that would mean we are pretty immature 🤣

Offline ianburns252

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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12133 on: August 12, 2022, 05:50:23 pm »
If they were half as mature as us that would mean we are pretty immature 🤣

I hadn't thought about it that way - more or less just throwing shade at all of you guys, however unintended

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12134 on: August 12, 2022, 05:56:58 pm »
I went to Anfield Comp’, we didn’t have any toffs apart from a couple of teachers. There wasn’t much bullying, almost all of the violence was amongst those who wanted to be amongst it. Most of the kids were OK and if any of the OK ones tried out some bullying they were generally given a hard time for being a tit. The bullying was left to the weirdoes who were also usually bigger than everyone else.

We  had two posh teachers, one was an outrageously gay snob who hated us for being common, and we hated him. The other one took our footy team and bought us the best footballs money could buy, out of his own pocket, and we loved him. Unfortunately, he loved us too, and loved a bit of slap and tickle in the showers. Nowadays we’d probably all be getting counselling, but we all sort of felt a bit sorry for him – he was no harm, and we just made a bit of a joke about who’s arse he liked the best and such like. We really liked him.

Anyway I think we all learned that posh isn’t the problem but snobbery is. Sorry if there is too much of ‘the noble savage’ in all this.
My (Catholic) comp had ideas that it was something special. It did bat above average in 'O' Level results, but it went rapidly down hill a few years later. We did not have ecclesiastical teachers. but the majority of teachers were Roman Catholic. Some of the teachers were lunatics who should never have been in charge of children. I am not aware of any sexual abuse, but there was other abuse. And when I think back, all the good teachers were not Catholic; all the lunatics (and there were many of them) were indeed Catholic.

As for bullying - there was some, no doubt about that. But I do not recall anything extreme (but I expect victims would probably see it differently). Some of the teachers were the worst bullies, who would engage in humiliation of some of those least able to defend themselves. Even as school kids, we recognised this.

The Head from my primary (Catholic) school was a prize prick too. When I was about 10, walking down the hill at the end of the day, another lad pushed me into a hedge. I did not really react. But, as I recall, he did this another two times - at this stage I did react. And a member of the public intervened. Anyway, obviously the 'good citizen' informed the school and somehow the Head learned that I was one of the two involved in the scuffle. The Head had me up in his office and I explained what had occurred. This cut no ice with him - he was just embarrassed that two of his charges were fighting and were stopped by a member of the public. The Head grabbed my by the arm and started shaking me around like a rag doll. What did I do? I punched him in the solar plexus and winded him. He immediately let go. All he did then was give me some lines to write, and he did not tell my parents. I never heard anything about it again (I talked about it some years later with my parents - nothing was said to them either). My guess is that the Head did not fancy explaining to my Dad why I had punched him (although a short arse, my Dad was built like the proverbial brick shit house - whereas, I take after my Mum's side. ;D ).

Anyway, I learned a good lesson that day - take no shit!
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Offline thaddeus

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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12135 on: August 12, 2022, 06:01:51 pm »
I'm sure even those 7 schools I mentioned have some very likable and sound individuals. I think we're saying that all the traits we don't like are more likely to manifest in their alumni than of other public/independent schools and even less so of state schools.

But yeah, a reminder again to all, find as you see.
I went to state school and loads of the kids were unlikable, I'd include myself in that ;D.  I think the difference is that leaving state school as a cocky teenager you soon get taught some life lessons and come out the better for it.  My main problem is the conveyor belt from those seven schools into the seats of power and seemingly frequently without those life lessons ever being learned.

That's not really a fault of the schools themselves though as wealthy and sharp elbowed parents will always find a way to smooth things through for their offspring.  I suppose the problem is really the ease and frequency with which that happens.

A bit of a tangent but my other problem with the split system is that there's no real motivation for those with the power and influence to improve the state system to actually do so (the same for health and a myriad of other services that can be purchased if you've the means to do so).  An underfunded and failing state system is a boon for fee-paying schools.

Offline Mahern

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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12136 on: August 12, 2022, 06:04:25 pm »

My dad amongst others was beaten daily by Christian Brothers. Those bastards got a lot to answer for. Power hungry as any Tory, although I hear Tories love a good caning when they can get it

Offline Mahern

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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12137 on: August 12, 2022, 06:07:48 pm »
I went to state school and loads of the kids were unlikable, I'd include myself in that ;D.  I think the difference is that leaving state school as a cocky teenager you soon get taught some life lessons and come out the better for it.  My main problem is the conveyor belt from those seven schools into the seats of power and seemingly frequently without those life lessons ever being learned.

That's not really a fault of the schools themselves though as wealthy and sharp elbowed parents will always find a way to smooth things through for their offspring.  I suppose the problem is really the ease and frequency with which that happens.

A bit of a tangent but my other problem with the split system is that there's no real motivation for those with the power and influence to improve the state system to actually do so (the same for health and a myriad of other services that can be purchased if you've the means to do so).  An underfunded and failing state system is a boon for fee-paying schools.

I think normal people tend to learn their limitations early and work with them. The breed we are discussing is narcissistic, tone deaf, and rolls off the conveyor belt without having been disabused of such notions

You got that right, in fact the incentive is quite the opposite

Offline LuverlyRita

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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12138 on: August 12, 2022, 06:11:45 pm »
As to the institutions, that probably depends which ones: I assume they are not all identical. I know (mostly in passing) a lot of people who went to Eton. Almost without exception, they see themselves as the rightful elite, and those with the capacity to reflect report that they were groomed and trained and schooled to behave in this way at Eton. It is a school dedicated to producing the super-confident ruling class, and it does it extremely well. These same people are then funnelled to Oxford and Cambridge (and many of them, I would add, are not particularly intelligent. They are trained to be articulate and self-confident, which can give the impression of intelligence), where the process continues.
I'm beginning to think that Guy Fawkes could have done us all a favour and had a practice run with Eton.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12139 on: August 12, 2022, 06:25:22 pm »
My dad amongst others was beaten daily by Christian Brothers. Those bastards got a lot to answer for. Power hungry as any Tory, although I hear Tories love a good caning when they can get it
Another primary school (feeder to the the same Comp) was lead by a sadistic nun. She'd cane children for playing football in the cricket season. Lunatics - the lot of them.
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Offline ianburns252

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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12140 on: August 12, 2022, 06:25:29 pm »
I think normal people tend to learn their limitations early and work with them. The breed we are discussing is narcissistic, tone deaf, and rolls off the conveyor belt without having been disabused of such notions

You got that right, in fact the incentive is quite the opposite

This feels like it is coming back round to an Andy@ favourite of the horseshoe theory - the extreme toffs and extreme nutters at state schools end up more similar (don't learn their lessons, both think they are above the world) and then the more normal from states and lower level privates come out fairly normal

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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12141 on: August 12, 2022, 06:36:02 pm »
I used to know 4 siblings who all went to Eton, at the time they were aged from pre teens to recently graduated.

They all went from juniors so age 7 and none of them went to the top universities.  In fact the youngest was told in year 10 that we wasn't bright enough to get the grades to stay on for 6th form and that he needed to find another school.

He was the prissiest out of all of them thinking the world owed him a damn good living.

They've all done ok for themselves in their chosen fields and I'm sure they'll move seemlessly through life seeing as their family is one of the wealthiest in the north west.

I've also known plenty who went to Merchants, some from Bolton and Manchester grammars and loads from other fee paying schools like Qegs and Stoneyhurst. 

Most of them from families who have done well for themselves and been able to give their kids a better start in life than they feel they had but are generally just hard working normal folk rather than monied gentry.

I presume it makes a difference between those you need to pass an entrance exam compared to those who can just afford to pay regardless of ability.

I also know a lad who was a physics genius at high school with high hopes of excelling in his field.  Managed to get into Oxford then had his head turned by the City pricks (not Abu Dhabis) and ended up going into finance at Canary Wharf.

Offline ianburns252

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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12142 on: August 12, 2022, 06:41:00 pm »
I used to know 4 siblings who all went to Eton, at the time they were aged from pre teens to recently graduated.

They all went from juniors so age 7 and none of them went to the top universities.  In fact the youngest was told in year 10 that we wasn't bright enough to get the grades to stay on for 6th form and that he needed to find another school.

He was the prissiest out of all of them thinking the world owed him a damn good living.

They've all done ok for themselves in their chosen fields and I'm sure they'll move seemlessly through life seeing as their family is one of the wealthiest in the north west.

I've also known plenty who went to Merchants, some from Bolton and Manchester grammars and loads from other fee paying schools like Qegs and Stoneyhurst. 

Most of them from families who have done well for themselves and been able to give their kids a better start in life than they feel they had but are generally just hard working normal folk rather than monied gentry.

I presume it makes a difference between those you need to pass an entrance exam compared to those who can just afford to pay regardless of ability.

I also know a lad who was a physics genius at high school with high hopes of excelling in his field.  Managed to get into Oxford then had his head turned by the City pricks (not Abu Dhabis) and ended up going into finance at Canary Wharf.

That is my experience too - a lot of the kids in my school had parents who were first generation white collar. Their grandparents had worked damn hard to instill the right attitudes and give the parents choices they didn't have themselves and then the parents did the same

Offline reddebs

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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12143 on: August 12, 2022, 06:55:35 pm »
That is my experience too - a lot of the kids in my school had parents who were first generation white collar. Their grandparents had worked damn hard to instill the right attitudes and give the parents choices they didn't have themselves and then the parents did the same

Yeah I used to have this conversation with an old boss of mine.  She was brought up on a council estate with working class, labour supporting parents and went to a typical comprehensive school but they taught her to work hard and save hard.

She's torn over whether her kids should have a private education now as it goes against her own upbringing and beliefs.

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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12144 on: August 12, 2022, 08:20:58 pm »
Here's a word to add to your vocabulary: "shoehorn".

Is that one of those things posh people use to take off their shoes? :D
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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12145 on: August 12, 2022, 08:34:14 pm »
Is that one of those things posh people use to take off their shoes? :D

Nah, it's to do with foot fetishism
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Offline Circa1892

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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12146 on: August 12, 2022, 08:39:21 pm »
Just from this whole private school thing. They're undoubtably a bad thing. They entrench privilege - even at the "cheaper" end. Yes there are some scholarships etc, but that's for PR and to make them justifiable. Some people come out ok. But they breed the "ruling classes" who are - almost to a man (and it is always a man) ultimately a bit thick. If you had to make a poster boy it'd be Rees Mogg.

But it sort of speaks to who we are as a country. The idea we have that there are "betters" who deserve to rule. Fucking hell we still have a Royal Family. That Big eared c*nt and his bald son are going to be King one day. A King. What a fucking joke.

The examples where people actually achieve power in this country without being from some self formed elite are few and far between - and always end up shot down by the establishment. Any Labour government shot down - heck, even Cromwell if you go back far enough was finished off for being a poor boy who rose to the top. Absolutely fucking mental country. I've always found it weird that, given how fucking atrocious the establishment messed up in the First World War, Britain was broadly unique in not having mass social upheaval inbetween the wars (with, obviously - Ireland an exception...)


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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12147 on: August 12, 2022, 08:49:33 pm »
Seems to be far more contempt to people who have come from humble backgrounds who become successful than those born into privilege. Being ruled over is something a lot of brits love.

Offline Father Ted

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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12148 on: August 12, 2022, 09:26:16 pm »
Just from this whole private school thing. They're undoubtably a bad thing. They entrench privilege - even at the "cheaper" end. Yes there are some scholarships etc, but that's for PR and to make them justifiable. Some people come out ok. But they breed the "ruling classes" who are - almost to a man (and it is always a man) ultimately a bit thick. If you had to make a poster boy it'd be Rees Mogg.

But it sort of speaks to who we are as a country. The idea we have that there are "betters" who deserve to rule. Fucking hell we still have a Royal Family. That Big eared c*nt and his bald son are going to be King one day. A King. What a fucking joke.

The examples where people actually achieve power in this country without being from some self formed elite are few and far between - and always end up shot down by the establishment. Any Labour government shot down - heck, even Cromwell if you go back far enough was finished off for being a poor boy who rose to the top. Absolutely fucking mental country. I've always found it weird that, given how fucking atrocious the establishment messed up in the First World War, Britain was broadly unique in not having mass social upheaval inbetween the wars (with, obviously - Ireland an exception...)



There was a general strike in 1926.

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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12149 on: August 12, 2022, 09:28:13 pm »
Just from this whole private school thing. They're undoubtably a bad thing. They entrench privilege - even at the "cheaper" end. Yes there are some scholarships etc, but that's for PR and to make them justifiable. Some people come out ok. But they breed the "ruling classes" who are - almost to a man (and it is always a man) ultimately a bit thick. If you had to make a poster boy it'd be Rees Mogg.

But it sort of speaks to who we are as a country. The idea we have that there are "betters" who deserve to rule. Fucking hell we still have a Royal Family. That Big eared c*nt and his bald son are going to be King one day. A King. What a fucking joke.

The examples where people actually achieve power in this country without being from some self formed elite are few and far between - and always end up shot down by the establishment. Any Labour government shot down - heck, even Cromwell if you go back far enough was finished off for being a poor boy who rose to the top. Absolutely fucking mental country. I've always found it weird that, given how fucking atrocious the establishment messed up in the First World War, Britain was broadly unique in not having mass social upheaval inbetween the wars (with, obviously - Ireland an exception...)

There are accounts from the time about the enlisted men tending to have more respect for those born in the officer class rather than promoted to it.
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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12150 on: August 12, 2022, 10:22:34 pm »
There was a general strike in 1926.

True. But the c*nts who sat in Eton, Oxford and “Gentleman’s clubs” drinking, guffawing and noncing before, during and after were still in charge at the end. Most of the rulers before, during and after were Victorian era aristocrats. Our next three Kings are still going strong with their weird inbreeding. Say one thing for this country. We know our place. People will freeze to death for the price of being poor. Prince Andrew has his £12m payout paid by his corrupt mum.

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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12151 on: August 12, 2022, 10:47:22 pm »
This thread is making me laugh though with your upper-class privalidge

Try going in a fucking childrens home for 5 years

Then we're laughing :)
;D

Look how you turned out though mate ;)
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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12152 on: August 12, 2022, 11:13:31 pm »
I would love to get YorkyKopite's take on this. I believe it is ingrained specifically into the English psyche as a hangover from Norman times and in later years landlordism.

Given our present situation (the Tories in power since 2010) I can see why the thesis is attractive. But I think it's wrong.

Class is the curse of British life, especially English life. But I don't think it's true to say that we love hierarchy more than any other comparable nation or that historically we have been slow to assert our rights against overweening power. Yes the monarchy sets the tone for much public life in this country today, but this is also the country that decapitated a King when it was still a highly unusual thing to do. We also clipped the wings of the monarchy as early as 1688 and they have remained clipped ever since. The rest of Europe suffered royal absolutism for the next 100 years (250 years in most cases). Can you imagine the British working class of the period 1860-1914 tolerating the Kaiser or the Tsar? I can't.

We also managed to remove the religious yoke before others did and never had a vast peasantry in absolute thrall to the bigotry, obscurantism and ignorance that was the stock-in-trade of religious leaders (whether Catholic or Protestant). Our trade unions were not 'Catholic trade unions' or 'Protestant trade unions' as they were in so much of central Europe. They were simply trade unions - secular, class conscious, bloody-minded in defence of what were considered to be their natural rights. The ideas of free association and free speech were vivid in Britain long before they took root elsewhere. Someone mentioned the interwar period as a time of shame for the British. True, the Tories somehow managed to rule the roost for most of the period, despite the catastrophe of the Great War and the tragedy of the Great Depression. But the British working class never fell for totalitarianism in the 1930s unlike so many other countries in Europe. It knew that Fascism and Communism were bullshit. The trade unions especially knew it. The British working class hated the idea of being ordered about and told what to think.

You mention the Norman Conquest and feudalism. True, to a point. Yet the Norman yoke was never fully accepted, even centuries afterwards. The myth of the 'freeborn Englishman' died hard. And of course feudalism was ended - I'm simplifying here - by  what? By the Peasants' Revolt and powerful and urgent feeling that the villein was as good as his lord. "When Adam delved and Eve span/Who was then the Gentleman", John Ball said in the year of the Revolt. Clearly many agreed with that philosophy. "The poorest he that is in England hath a right to live as the greatest he" - Thomas Rainborough, the Leveller, at the Putney Debates during the Civil War. Show me that kind of advanced thinking in any other part of Europe at the time. These ideas didn't come from nowhere. They clearly struck a chord. There is clearly more than deference and a love of hierarchy going on.

In short I think it's too easy to look at the enduring class system and conclude that the Brits are somehow especially prone to deference. The historical record suggests otherwise.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2022, 11:15:11 pm by Yorkykopite »
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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12153 on: August 12, 2022, 11:42:48 pm »
You mention the Norman Conquest and feudalism. True, to a point. Yet the Norman yoke was never fully accepted, even centuries afterwards. The myth of the 'freeborn Englishman' died hard. And of course feudalism was ended - I'm simplifying here - by  what? By the Peasants' Revolt and powerful and urgent feeling that the villein was as good as his lord. "When Adam delved and Eve span/Who was then the Gentleman", John Ball said in the year of the Revolt. Clearly many agreed with that philosophy. "The poorest he that is in England hath a right to live as the greatest he" - Thomas Rainborough, the Leveller, at the Putney Debates during the Civil War. Show me that kind of advanced thinking in any other part of Europe at the time. These ideas didn't come from nowhere. They clearly struck a chord. There is clearly more than deference and a love of hierarchy going on.


Yes but 1381 they conned the rebels, as they did in 1536. The restoration, Peterloo, the general strike etc. Those in power, in the main, have managed to hang on to the land and keep the riff raff out, giving just enough to avoid what happened in France.
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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12154 on: August 12, 2022, 11:56:53 pm »
I think it's a human thing rather than a British thing. That's why we all had to invent God, everything else is just an extension of that, it's hard wired into us. It's as though we were designed to be slaves.
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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12155 on: August 13, 2022, 12:50:52 am »
I think it's a human thing rather than a British thing. That's why we all had to invent God, everything else is just an extension of that, it's hard wired into us. It's as though we were designed to be slaves.

Deference is definitely ingrained in British culture, though.

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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12156 on: August 13, 2022, 06:50:52 am »
Deference is definitely ingrained in British culture, though.

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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12157 on: August 13, 2022, 07:34:47 am »
The Civil Service is anti semitic. I've heard it all now.

Truss is actually insane.
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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12158 on: August 13, 2022, 07:44:48 am »
My best friend moved to the area when he was 10 from England. He always stood out in School. Not only was he one of the clever ones, he reeked of middle class.  His pencil case contained stationary not sweets, he wore his uniform correctly, no graffiti on his exercise book or desk.
His parents werent poor nor were they rich.  Detached house with a mortgage.

He went through a rebellious phase where he was on a report card, he wanted to fit in with the rest of us. 

He now has two kids.  The youngest is struggling in School and my mates worried hes going to fail educationally.
Mates salary is around 500,000, his wife also has a good job . So I asked why dont you send him to private school, you wont miss the money?
He's refusing based on not wanting his kid to be "like that, it will do more harm than good".
It's strange, my friends current circle of friends are all high flyer Banker types. He lives in Luxembourg. That's the world he's in now. so I'm unsure how it would make much difference. 
He brings his kids back over to Wales at every opportunity so they can mix with working class scum like me. He thinks this balance will serve them better in life.



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Re: Conservatives: Wrecking the UK for fun
« Reply #12159 on: August 13, 2022, 08:06:02 am »
He brings his kids back over to Wales at every opportunity

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