Topic: Naby Keita Watch

[number 168]

Common misconception.

He's very good technically and the closest profile we have to Thiago. I have no idea what it is, but there seems to be something about him that gives people the impression he's a bit flaky or a liability. His problem is injuries. Nothing more, nothing less.

Correct, to say that he has had "plenty of atrocious games" is clearly untrue. The game in Madrid where he came off is often used against him, but he was the best of a very bad bunch that night and came off for tactical reasons. Whenever I have seen him play he has either been decent or pretty good. Naby has never let us down yet his injury record is used to denigrate his ability.

[PaddyPaned]

Common misconception.

He's very good technically and the closest profile we have to Thiago. I have no idea what it is, but there seems to be something about him that gives people the impression he's a bit flaky or a liability. His problem is injuries. Nothing more, nothing less.

Well, to an extent. Bearing in mind his price tag, I think it’s fair to say that he has fallen below expectations. The injuries this season are a shame as this was possibly his time to really shine. Season ain’t over though so I’ll continue to hope that we will see what he is truly capable of.

[Fiasco]

Correct, to say that he has had "plenty of atrocious games" is clearly untrue. The game in Madrid where he came off is often used against him, but he was the best of a very bad bunch that night and came off for tactical reasons. Whenever I have seen him play he has either been decent or pretty good. Naby has never let us down yet his injury record is used to denigrate his ability.

Madrid wasn't the first time he's been dragged off unceremoniously. Just a coincidence each time then that he was the one to make way (and Klopp will never throw a player directly under a bus).

To say he's 'never let us down' and he's only ever been 'decent or pretty good' seems fanboyish to me. I'm not trying to change opinions on the lad but the truth is often in the middle. He's not a superstar, he's not a total dud, he's a very useful player on his day but he's not the most consistent and obviously injuries have been debilitating for him and the team. I wish him well wherever he goes.

[Suareznumber7]

Who's going to be the next scapegoat though?

[amir87]

Who's going to be the next scapegoat though?

Curtis Jones seems to have been nurtured for that position. Ready to fully take the role when Naby leaves in the Summer.

[vblfc]

Common misconception.

He's very good technically and the closest profile we have to Thiago. I have no idea what it is, but there seems to be something about him that gives people the impression he's a bit flaky or a liability. His problem is injuries. Nothing more, nothing less.

Agree. I don’t think Naby let’s us down when he plays. In fact we are missing him big time this season. As for the rest of the year - a fit Naby available (even at end of contract) would be a big bonus compared to risking say a fit Melo in my opinion. Also would take fit Naby over Ox and even Harvey or Jones at their current experience level. Hope he is ready to go asap. He owes us a few performances and will improve us (if/when fit of course)

[AndyMuller]

I’d of been more shocked if we gave him an extension.

More bad games than good for me and that shot in the CL final was horrible.

[J-Mc-]

Right move letting him go, you wonder if it’s just his body not being able to cope with our training intensity or if he’s just prone to injury in general.

Shame because when he’s fit, he’s a cracking player and can only wish him well wherever he ends up next.

[number 168]

Madrid wasn't the first time he's been dragged off unceremoniously. Just a coincidence each time then that he was the one to make way (and Klopp will never throw a player directly under a bus).

To say he's 'never let us down' and he's only ever been 'decent or pretty good' seems fanboyish to me. I'm not trying to change opinions on the lad but the truth is often in the middle. He's not a superstar, he's not a total dud, he's a very useful player on his day but he's not the most consistent and obviously injuries have been debilitating for him and the team. I wish him well wherever he goes.

He wasn't "dragged off uncermoniously" in Madrid, unless you wish to call Jurgen a liar and ignore the evidence of your own eyes that he wasn't the worst midfielder on the pitch. Perhaps you could list the games where he has been "dragged off uncermoniously"? I have no idea what "fanboyish" means, but as a match going supporter for over 50 years I guess that is something I am not. He is not "inconsistent" as he plays well whenever he is given the opportunity. His injury record is no measure of his ability is all I am attempting to say.

[Fromola]

He wasn't "dragged off uncermoniously" in Madrid, unless you wish to call Jurgen a liar and ignore the evidence of your own eyes that he wasn't the worst midfielder on the pitch. Perhaps you could list the games where he has been "dragged off uncermoniously"? I have no idea what "fanboyish" means, but as a match going supporter for over 50 years I guess that is something I am not. He is not "inconsistent" as he plays well whenever he is given the opportunity. His injury record is no measure of his ability is all I am attempting to say.

He's been hauled off a few times at half time which is rare for Klopp to do. IIRC it was Keita who was brought off at half time after the Villa fiasco.  In Madrid he was taken off before half time which is very rare for a manager to do for a player who isn't injured or at the least about to get sent off. In fairness Wijnaldum was at least as bad in those games.

[Fiasco]

He's been hauled off a few times at half time which is rare for Klopp to do. IIRC it was Keita who was brought off at half time after the Villa fiasco.  In Madrid he was taken off before half time which is very rare for a manager to do for a player who isn't injured or at the least about to get sent off. In fairness Wijnaldum was at least as bad in those games.

Pretty much what I was going to say, so thank you. Was it the Atletico game away as well where he was brought off at or before half time? I know he scored, but he was culpable for their 2 goals before that which is amazing considering he plays well whenever given the opportunity. As you say, Klopp very rarely does that, and of course he wouldn't pin the blame on one player alone even when he's had to (Lovren away at Spurs, I'm sure he made a joke about it not long after).

168, by fanboyish I mean to say that many people who are strong supporters of one player are blind to their weaknesses and faults and perhaps go over the top with praise. As I've said, the truth is somewhere in the middle with Naby. A fit and firing Naby would be an asset to any team. His injuries record isn't a measure of ability, absolutely not, but if you can't get on the pitch then ultimately you are useless. And it is my view that when on the pitch he's too hot and cold.

[classycarra]

Pretty much what I was going to say, so thank you. Was it the Atletico game away as well where he was brought off at or before half time? I know he scored, but he was culpable for their 2 goals before that which is amazing considering he plays well whenever given the opportunity. As you say, Klopp very rarely does that, and of course he wouldn't pin the blame on one player alone even when he's had to (Lovren away at Spurs, I'm sure he made a joke about it not long after)

Yeah it was Atletico away - he got taken off at half time to try to bring some order to the game because Hendo Milner and Keita were struggling (any one of them could have been subbed off, to try to help improve things to something more orderly - supporters have had to become more familiar with this situation this season unfortunately).

So he was taken off at half time, and then started next game at old trafford. We came out of that week with two wins and he scored in both games -pretty great week for the team. And you are saying klopp was just not pinning the blame of the 45 mins of atletico performance on keita out of politeness? haha

[El Lobo]

It probably tells its own story....but without wanting to sound fanboyish, those times he has been 'hauled off' early he's been a little unlucky I feel. I think every time has been alongside two of Hendo, Gini, Fab or Millie and has then been replaced by another one of them. All players that the gaffer just prefers, certainly if the team is struggling a touch. I dont think you could watch any of them games and draw the conclusion that he'd been our worst midfielder, just that his game isn't really suited to 'batten down the hatches' like certainly Hendo and Millie are, and a lesser extent the other two.

[Fiasco]

Yeah it was Atletico away - he got taken off at half time to try to bring some order to the game because Hendo Milner and Keita were struggling (any one of them could have been subbed off, to try to help improve things to something more orderly - supporters have had to become more familiar with this situation this season unfortunately).

So he was taken off at half time, and then started next game at old trafford. We came out of that week with two wins and he scored in both games -pretty great week for the team. And you are saying klopp was just not pinning the blame of the 45 mins of atletico performance on keita out of politeness? haha

No, I'm saying that if you know anything about Klopp and his style then he's not going to blame his players publicly. He just isn't. I wouldn't call it politeness as such, it just isn't his way. I don't see what is contentious about that comment. And your point proves my annoyance with certain posters about him. You admit he and the other midfielders were struggling, he was significantly at fault for us conceding two goals, he was then subbed... yet people will say that he has always played well when given a chance. You can't debate when people are so entrenched in their viewpoint.

[classycarra]

No, I'm saying that if you know anything about Klopp and his style then he's not going to blame his players publicly. He just isn't. I wouldn't call it politeness as such, it just isn't his way. I don't see what is contentious about that comment. And your point proves my annoyance with certain posters about him. You admit he and the other midfielders were struggling, he was significantly at fault for us conceding two goals, he was then subbed... yet people will say that he has always played well when given a chance. You can't debate when people are so entrenched in their viewpoint.

Would you say Gerrard always played well when given a chance? Or does Rafa taking him off in the derby to help us win mean that it would only be fanboys who'd say that.

By the way, not exactly sure what your final point is cos its not me that said he always played well - you seem to be conflating multiple people's views together and then deciding they (a combination of multiple people) are entrenched.

What I will say is that he had a very good season and contributed massively to us chasing a quadruple. Perhaps if he wasn't available as much, the warning signs about our midfields inability to physically compete to previous levels might have been heeded sooner.

[GreatEx]

I think when you look at Keita's early subs, and the many big games where Klopp has preferred others to start (including a hobbled Thiago in Paris), it's of less interest trying to interpret what that means about his performance level in those games, and more what it means in terms of what Klopp and the coaches think he does well compared to others. Looking across his time here, it seems that Klopp's preferred midfield for big games has been Thiago - Fab - Hendo, and before that Wij - Fab - Hendo or Hendo - Milner - Wij. Keita has been good for certain games, and that may explain his high win %, but I can't think of any time he's been consistently one of our best 3 midfielders, at least for the way we play. Even if he could stay fit, I'd be confident we can find a replacement with the necessary physical qualities to be a mainstay in our midfield.

[StevoHimself]

Agree. I don’t think Naby let’s us down when he plays. In fact we are missing him big time this season. As for the rest of the year - a fit Naby available (even at end of contract) would be a big bonus compared to risking say a fit Melo in my opinion. Also would take fit Naby over Ox and even Harvey or Jones at their current experience level. Hope he is ready to go asap. He owes us a few performances and will improve us (if/when fit of course)

I saw a lot of posts to the effect of "I have no idea what's going wrong" earlier this season about our poor start. I think so much of it is not having a midfielder who can play the Gini role effectively. Thiago and Naby can BUT can't stay fit. I understand letting Naby go but it means one less player who can actually fill that role.

[StevoHimself]

I saw a lot of posts to the effect of "I have no idea what's going wrong" earlier this season about our poor start. I think so much of it is not having a midfielder who can play the Gini role effectively. Thiago and Naby can BUT can't stay fit. I understand letting Naby go but it means one less player who can actually fill that role.

I realise I'm not saying anything new here btw

[Knight]

I think when you look at Keita's early subs, and the many big games where Klopp has preferred others to start (including a hobbled Thiago in Paris), it's of less interest trying to interpret what that means about his performance level in those games, and more what it means in terms of what Klopp and the coaches think he does well compared to others. Looking across his time here, it seems that Klopp's preferred midfield for big games has been Thiago - Fab - Hendo, and before that Wij - Fab - Hendo or Hendo - Milner - Wij. Keita has been good for certain games, and that may explain his high win %, but I can't think of any time he's been consistently one of our best 3 midfielders, at least for the way we play. Even if he could stay fit, I'd be confident we can find a replacement with the necessary physical qualities to be a mainstay in our midfield.

Oh yes the CL final midfield. Having played Keita in several key games in the run in (FA cup semi, several away CL ties) and left Henderson on the bench he put Henderson in for the final. Probably not a good idea in hindsight. What it doesn't tell you anything about though is what Klopp thought of Keita last season.

The last page or so is yet another demonstration that people don't understand football. This thread consistently proves it.

[GreatEx]

Ah, the "if you disagree with me, you don't understand football" argument. Right up with "if you question anything Klopp does, you obviously think you know more than him" in the debating playbook. Well, at least you went against the grain on the latter, I'll grant you that.

To elaborate on some of the things Keita maybe doesn't do as well as others, which might explain the preference for Hendo: he's not strong in the air, he hasn't got great endurance, he doesn't cover for the fullback very well... these are all considerations when you're up against top quality opposition, especially in a cup final where one fast break could decide the game. I mean, I don't have a direct line to the coaching staff, but it's always been my concern with Keita, and selections tend to bear that out. When we're against a lesser opponent that's just trying not to get beaten, eg. Old Trafford, then he's a really good option. If he was reliable, I'd be all for keeping him, and I'm not trying to diminish what he's done for us.

[B0151?]

I will always feel sorry for injury prone players. There has never been a question of Naby's professionalism. Seems to just be a quiet lad from Guinea, not a party animal or ever looks unfit when he's on the pitch. It's a shame how it could end but no matter what people say, he's still played over 100 games for us and contributed to league and CL titles. Just it could have been a lot more.

[sattapaartridge]

The last page or so is yet another demonstration that people don't understand football. This thread consistently proves it.

Haha! i love statements like this. "NO ONE UNDERSTANDS FOOTBALL BUT ME!"

It really is funny isnt it. Peoples perceptions of football, criticize or praise a player, then use the manager's actions (with lots of different perceptions too!)

Like Fiasco says, with Keita (and Klopp) its somewhere in the middle.

I believe Klopp feels disappointed in Keita, because he wasnt meant to be an average player who simply "does the wijnaldum job". Those who think he does that job efficiently are wide off the mark. Look at Wijnaldums attributes, speed, strength, engine. Keita or Thiago doesnt quite have that. Thiago has shown a lot more running recently though, and always fights for the ball.

One of the standout features of Keita's game (early on) was his dribbling, Klopp said against Real Madrid, he wanted more dribblers in the side, but Keita was rabbit in headlights instead. He's very very inconsistent. For me, he's built like a 10, playing in midfield, but doesnt have the physical attributes to make it in the premier league. Thiago has adapted his game loads since joining, Keita simply hasnt.

People keep telling me "he's doing what Klopp wants him to do" which simply cannot be true. "yeah i want to spend £54million on a player to just hold the ball and keep it". He wanted a dynamic player who can break the lines in tight games. If Keita was a success, Thiago wouldnt have been bought.

Thats just my perception though, I could be totally and utterly wrong.

[Red-Soldier]

Is he still a thing?

[Zlen]

Is he still a thing?

No, really isn't.
His time here is over.
We may get a small bonus of him helping us to a CL place this season - but otherwise it's really finished as a story.

[duvva 💅]

I heard he’s taking over from Julian Ward

[Knight]

Haha! i love statements like this. "NO ONE UNDERSTANDS FOOTBALL BUT ME!"

It really is funny isnt it. Peoples perceptions of football, criticize or praise a player, then use the manager's actions (with lots of different perceptions too!)

Like Fiasco says, with Keita (and Klopp) its somewhere in the middle.

I believe Klopp feels disappointed in Keita, because he wasnt meant to be an average player who simply "does the wijnaldum job". Those who think he does that job efficiently are wide off the mark. Look at Wijnaldums attributes, speed, strength, engine. Keita or Thiago doesnt quite have that. Thiago has shown a lot more running recently though, and always fights for the ball.

One of the standout features of Keita's game (early on) was his dribbling, Klopp said against Real Madrid, he wanted more dribblers in the side, but Keita was rabbit in headlights instead. He's very very inconsistent. For me, he's built like a 10, playing in midfield, but doesnt have the physical attributes to make it in the premier league. Thiago has adapted his game loads since joining, Keita simply hasnt.

People keep telling me "he's doing what Klopp wants him to do" which simply cannot be true. "yeah i want to spend £54million on a player to just hold the ball and keep it". He wanted a dynamic player who can break the lines in tight games. If Keita was a success, Thiago wouldnt have been bought.

Thats just my perception though, I could be totally and utterly wrong.

To be clear I don’t think I know very much. But I do know Keita’s been very good for us when he’s been on the pitch. And plenty of people in this thread know that too, I’m not a lone, or even a minority voice, here. But thanks for proving my point in your post. One’s opinion on Keita’s on pitch contribution is a very good marker for someone’s understanding more broadly. If they think he’s been good, they still might not know very much, if they think he’s been ‘average’ or worse, then they definitely don’t. It’s a good bellwether for ignorance.

[BarryCrocker]

No idea the quality of the source:

Revealed: Liverpool in Naby Keita U-turn after talks get underway - Sources
Liverpool have pulled the plug on contract talks with Naby Keita and are now willing to let him go, sources have told Football Insider.

The midfielder, 27, is out of contract at the end of the season and is free to agree a pre-contract with an overseas side in January.

https://www.footballinsider247.com/liverpool-keita-talks-sources/

[Pistolero]

One’s opinion on Keita’s on pitch contribution is a very good marker for someone’s understanding more broadly. If they think he’s been good, they still might not know very much, if they think he’s been ‘average’ or worse, then they definitely don’t. It’s a good bellwether for ignorance.

what a load of pompous fuckin nonsense 

[farawayred]

No idea the quality of the source:

Gonna be like a new signing.

We need to sign a team doctor before we extend Keita's contract though.

[GreatEx]

what a load of pompous fuckin nonsense 

"I'm not saying I know anything, but if you disagree with me I know you know nothing" :

[Knight]

1. Keita has been very good for us when on the pitch and it's not been difficult to see.
2. If you don't see Keita's quality it's a bellwether that quite effectively indicates you're a bit rubbish at analysing the on field contribution of football players.
3.Plenty of Liverpool fans consistently enter this thread to criticise his on field performances.
4. So plenty of Liverpool fans aren't good at correctly analysing the on field contribution of football players.

In fact Keita's contribution has been so easy to notice that I think people must be a. unduly influenced by moments which then dominate their whole view of a player (getting hooked at half time a number of time and getting dribbled past against Atletico both spring to mind) b. unduly influenced by frustration at his inability to stay fit which then bleeds over into how you perceive him when he does play. c. Unduly influenced by the wait and the hype, which built him up to extraordinary proportions. Again, plenty of people have mentioned things along these lines.

[AndyMuller]

He will go back to Germany next season and play every game for his new team and be boss.

That’s how it be sometimes.

[BarryCrocker]

"Injury expert Ben Dinnery has added that Keita “has only played 26% of the league minutes available since he came to the club”.

[killer-heels]

Terrible, albeit some of that was due to not being selected.

[Pistolero]

1. Keita has been very good for us when on the pitch and it's not been difficult to see.
2. If you don't see Keita's quality it's a bellwether that quite effectively indicates you're a bit rubbish at analysing the on field contribution of football players.
3.Plenty of Liverpool fans consistently enter this thread to criticise his on field performances.
4. So plenty of Liverpool fans aren't good at correctly analysing the on field contribution of football players.

In fact Keita's contribution has been so easy to notice that I think people must be a. unduly influenced by moments which then dominate their whole view of a player (getting hooked at half time a number of time and getting dribbled past against Atletico both spring to mind) b. unduly influenced by frustration at his inability to stay fit which then bleeds over into how you perceive him when he does play. c. Unduly influenced by the wait and the hype, which built him up to extraordinary proportions. Again, plenty of people have mentioned things along these lines.

 

[kasperoff]

Does it really make sense to pay someone £150k p/w for 3 years when you know he's not going to play for the majority of that contract? No one has a crystal ball, but Keita getting injured is about as close to a sure thing as you can get. Abundance of talent, but sadly not built for the PL. . . . . or we need a new doctor or something.

Time to move on, I think.

[So… Howard Philips]

Does it really make sense to pay someone £150k p/w for 3 years when you know he's not going to play for the majority of that contract? No one has a crystal ball, but Keita getting injured is about as close to a sure thing as you can get. Abundance of talent, but sadly not built for the PL. . . . . or we need a new doctor or something.

Time to move on, I think.

And that’s the reason he was continued to be paid whilst injured.

[harleydanger]

Most of those wages are covered by insurance.

[farawayred]

I think the whole effort of signing up Keita to a new contract is to prove his existence. Do his signatures on the old and new contract match?...

[rocco]

He will go back to Germany next season and play every game for his new team and be boss.

That’s how it be sometimes.

Wouldn’t be surprised, best imo to let him go and move on .

Never got the impression especially lately he is happy at the club .