Author Topic: Naby Keita Watch  (Read 1880497 times)

Offline Fromola

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15160 on: January 29, 2023, 07:34:24 pm »
Here we go again.

Keita getting subbed before 90 has always been a common thing. It's probably a physical/sports science thing rather than anything to do with manager opinion

He was hauled off during the first half when we lost in Madrid a couple of years ago (the whole team stunk). He was the one withdrawn at half time in the Villa 7-2 horrorshow. When he starts he's usually first subbed off. I think it's fair to say he doesn't have Klopp's full confidence.

That being said he's currently in the team on merit and I think we've missed him this season.
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Offline KloppCorn

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15161 on: January 29, 2023, 07:35:00 pm »
Taking him off cost us games this season. Please don’t bring on Henderson and Fabinho ever again. If anything bring on CJ or Milly in midfield. Always lose control when he or Thiago come off.

Online HeartAndSoul

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15162 on: January 29, 2023, 07:38:59 pm »
Lost contol of the midfield when he and Baj went off. Our shape went out the window after the subs.

Notice a theme every time he goes off, we lose control in midfield, everytime he comes on, we seem to get more control in midfield. That could also be a reflection on who he’s coming on for or off for.

Online MonsLibpool

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15163 on: January 29, 2023, 08:07:12 pm »
He looks so slow these days. Far from the player that we bought.

Offline Ghost Town

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15164 on: January 30, 2023, 01:27:40 am »
He was hauled off during the first half when we lost in Madrid a couple of years ago (the whole team stunk). He was the one withdrawn at half time in the Villa 7-2 horrorshow.
That's just two occasions. There have also been plenty of occasions when he wasn't 'hauled off'. Most other players have also had one or two occasions when they were taken off markedly early, or at half time. It happens, from time to time.

But those two instances are qualitatively not the same as the regular subbings towards the end of the game. Also I seem to remember reading that he'd be subbed off earlyish often at Leipzig as well, though I haven't got that data to hand. Someone once described him as a 70 minute player or something.


Quote
When he starts he's usually first subbed off. I think it's fair to say he doesn't have Klopp's full confidence.
No, it's not fair to say that at all. First you'd need to disclude any physical/tiredness/ sports science reason for the fairly regular early subbings. If you CAN disclude those as the reason then you can begin to speculate that there may be a confidence based reason.

As it is you're just doing what you (and many other here) often do: taking what you think and putting it onto Klopp.

If you lack confidence in the player, fine, you have the right to hold that opinion. You don't, however, get to speak that opinion on someone else's behalf.
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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15165 on: January 30, 2023, 01:40:38 am »
He does keep getting subbed off. The same will happen with Jota and Díaz when they come back. Players who suffer long term injuries need to go through pre season again. He's getting a good amount of minutes considering.

We managed his minutes throughout last season and his availability was great (he missed 1 game in a 10 month period). If we feel we have to do the same again this season to make use of one of our best midfielders then that's just what we have to do, but it may just be while he's building up his match fitness.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15166 on: January 30, 2023, 06:16:36 am »
People complaining about Keita. As far as I’ve seen this season, every time they have brought him on off the bench we’ve improved and every time we’ve subbed him off we’ve gotten worse. And for yesterday’s game there is data to back up the eye test.

Offline Nick110581

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15167 on: January 30, 2023, 07:26:41 am »
People complaining about Keita. As far as I’ve seen this season, every time they have brought him on off the bench we’ve improved and every time we’ve subbed him off we’ve gotten worse. And for yesterday’s game there is data to back up the eye test.

He was excellent for the most part yesterday.

Worked tirelessly especially in first half.
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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15168 on: January 30, 2023, 07:30:01 am »
He was excellent for the most part yesterday.

Worked tirelessly especially in first half.

Made the midfield better off the ball, but really struggled when pressed. When he first came to us he was good at beating pressing teams and getting a pass away. A few times yesterday he got caught on the ball.

Still prefer him over any of the alternatives at the moment.
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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15169 on: January 30, 2023, 11:14:36 am »
He played 90 minutes against Wolves in the cup and 60 minutes against Chelsea 4 days later. So I don't think he's substitution in a game 8 days later had anything to do with sports science/managing his minutes. I just think Klopp thought bringing Henderson on in place of Keita would improve our chances of winning but it certainly didn't work out that way. We had control of the game before that triple sub.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15170 on: January 30, 2023, 11:20:52 am »
He was excellent for the most part yesterday.

Worked tirelessly especially in first half.

He is an asset, but I feel that some people make their mind up about him before he even kicks a ball. He has been pretty good whenever he's played so far in what are usually dismal team performances.

Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15171 on: January 30, 2023, 11:23:36 am »
People complaining about Keita. As far as I’ve seen this season, every time they have brought him on off the bench we’ve improved and every time we’ve subbed him off we’ve gotten worse. And for yesterday’s game there is data to back up the eye test.

Look at what happened as soon as he came off yesterday.  We literally went to shit.


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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15172 on: January 30, 2023, 11:49:44 am »
That's just two occasions. There have also been plenty of occasions when he wasn't 'hauled off'. Most other players have also had one or two occasions when they were taken off markedly early, or at half time. It happens, from time to time.

But those two instances are qualitatively not the same as the regular subbings towards the end of the game. Also I seem to remember reading that he'd be subbed off earlyish often at Leipzig as well, though I haven't got that data to hand. Someone once described him as a 70 minute player or something.

No, it's not fair to say that at all. First you'd need to disclude any physical/tiredness/ sports science reason for the fairly regular early subbings. If you CAN disclude those as the reason then you can begin to speculate that there may be a confidence based reason.

As it is you're just doing what you (and many other here) often do: taking what you think and putting it onto Klopp.

If you lack confidence in the player, fine, you have the right to hold that opinion. You don't, however, get to speak that opinion on someone else's behalf.

Thank you for this. I haven’t actually seen the word disclude used properly in a sentence before.
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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15173 on: January 30, 2023, 12:26:20 pm »
Look at what happened as soon as he came off yesterday.  We literally went to shit.



Went to shit defensively, but that diagram suggests we'd been shit going forward for 30 minutes so in that sense you can understand why changes were made.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15174 on: January 30, 2023, 12:42:40 pm »
For a midfielde he doesn't half go missing alot. I know he pressed well and played a few good passes. I like to see some comparison to our other midfielders but it does seem like he gives the ball away an awful lot.

For yesterday:

Keita attempted 25 passes, including 2 crosses (which inherently have a lower % rate), with an 80% success rate (and 1 key pass); had 1 dribble (successful), was fouled twice.  Was dispossed 2 times.
Thiago attempted 39 passes, including 0 crosses, with a 76.9% success rate (and 0 key passes); had 2 dribbles (1 successful), was fouled once.
Bajctetic attempted 32 passes, including 0 crosses, with an 84.4% success rate (and 0 key passes); had 1 dribble,  and was fouled once.

So Keita "gave" the ball away 5 times with misplaced passes (including the 2 crosses), and twice being dispossed; Thiago gave the ball away 9 times with mis placed passes and had an unsuccessful dribble; Bajctetic gave the ball away 5 times with misplaced passes, and had an unsuccessful  dribble.  So no, he didn't give the ball away any more than the other midfielders - especially given the harder nature of his passes he did miss on (2 of the 5 being balls into the box). 

Offline Ghost Town

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15175 on: January 30, 2023, 12:55:38 pm »
He played 90 minutes against Wolves in the cup and 60 minutes against Chelsea 4 days later. So I don't think he's substitution in a game 8 days later had anything to do with sports science/managing his minutes.
Well I'm no expert but I don't see how that follows. Players can have their own individual minutes programmes, agreeed between the manager and the sports science lot, and can differ in their needs, even 8 days later or whatever. A lot of our subs seem to be pre-planned ones, though there are also reactive ones.

And again, the main point was that the way Keita has fairly regularly (though not every time) been subbed later in games is more suggestive of a physical reason than a 'lack of confidence' reason.

Quote
just think Klopp thought bringing Henderson on in place of Keita would improve our chances of winning but it certainly didn't work out that way. We had control of the game before that triple sub.
This is really just saying 'Klopp got it wrong out of choice'. It's possible; everyone can make mistakes, of course. But I see no reason for thinking that an experienced and successful and knowledgeable manager would 'just get it wrong' when there's a more likely reason: that he was obliged to roll the changes for minutes/injury prevention/sports science reasons.

Was there anything about the tenor and character of the game that screamed 'we need Henderson on right about now'? I'm no so sure. We seemed to have them reasonably bottled and just needed to trust that we'd convert a goal-scoring chance or else see out the minutes to get a replay. (Naturally I don't buy any nonsense suggestion that Kloppo deliberately threw the tie because he didn't want a replay).

Of course it's a much bigger topic than just about one player. In an ideal world the whole squad would be robust enough to see out full games every time, esp when the situation is favourable and withdrawing them would upset the control or balance that had been established. In many ways that's why most of us who can see Keita's quality nevertheless accept that he needs to be replaced by a more robust player.
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Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15176 on: January 30, 2023, 01:06:38 pm »
Went to shit defensively, but that diagram suggests we'd been shit going forward for 30 minutes so in that sense you can understand why changes were made.

I don't think the change was made for any reason other than Keita generally only plays 60-70 minutes.  But, the change clearly made us much much worse defensively and did not make us any better going forward. 

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15177 on: January 30, 2023, 01:50:05 pm »
the managing minutes thing works both for the player going off (Naby) and the one replacing him (Hendo).

both need their minutes managed - Keita coz he's not 100% fit and Hendo coz he's (as he's admitted) knackered so his energy/stamina levels needs to be brought back slowly.

Offline RyanBabel19

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15178 on: January 30, 2023, 01:51:12 pm »
Think Klopp might also want to keep Keita available as a starting option as much as possible

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15179 on: January 30, 2023, 01:53:39 pm »
The least of our problems right now.
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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15180 on: January 30, 2023, 02:05:09 pm »
If you didn’t know about the fee or any of the drama surrounding him, and just watched our midfielders for what they do on the pitch, it’d be impossible to say he isn’t the best one right now.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15181 on: January 30, 2023, 02:14:58 pm »
I think Keita and Thiago are being managed especially with Madrid looming.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15182 on: January 30, 2023, 02:47:31 pm »
Did great work off the ball, created Harvey's goal and the 1 on 1 for Salah, two incredible actions, but people are still tearing into him. Some fans will never give him his due respect no matter how well he plays. I'm honestly not sure what people are missing from his performance yesterday?
« Last Edit: January 30, 2023, 02:51:56 pm by Szemerényi »

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15183 on: January 30, 2023, 03:43:04 pm »
I think Keita and Thiago are being managed especially with Madrid looming.

Cue the midfield being Milner - Fabinho - Hendo.. A hark back to the Milner - Gini - Hendo CL away days! :)

Offline Realgman

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15184 on: January 30, 2023, 06:08:21 pm »
In my opinion, Kieta gives the ball away way too much, we are so vulnerable to a counter lately, that that kind of error is really bad for Liverpool. Hes one of the worst players for giving away the ball, or taking too long to pass... Hes a liability now more than most in that midfield..
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Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15185 on: January 30, 2023, 10:10:03 pm »
In my opinion, Kieta gives the ball away way too much, we are so vulnerable to a counter lately, that that kind of error is really bad for Liverpool. Hes one of the worst players for giving away the ball, or taking too long to pass... Hes a liability now more than most in that midfield..

For yesterday:

Keita attempted 25 passes, including 2 crosses (which inherently have a lower % rate), with an 80% success rate (and 1 key pass); had 1 dribble (successful), was fouled twice.  Was dispossed 2 times.
Thiago attempted 39 passes, including 0 crosses, with a 76.9% success rate (and 0 key passes); had 2 dribbles (1 successful), was fouled once.
Bajctetic attempted 32 passes, including 0 crosses, with an 84.4% success rate (and 0 key passes); had 1 dribble,  and was fouled once.

So Keita "gave" the ball away 5 times with misplaced passes (including the 2 crosses), and twice being dispossed; Thiago gave the ball away 9 times with mis placed passes and had an unsuccessful dribble; Bajctetic gave the ball away 5 times with misplaced passes, and had an unsuccessful  dribble.  So no, he didn't give the ball away any more than the other midfielders - especially given the harder nature of his passes he did miss on (2 of the 5 being balls into the box).

Offline Realgman

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15186 on: January 30, 2023, 10:56:04 pm »


Fair enough, he lost the ball less than other players, yesterday.
Thiago was actually poor yesterday too, and Bajctetic is in at the deep end a bit.. my feeling over the last while is that Kieta has tended to lose or misplace the ball more than others, one game does not provide form over time. But if it is the case that statistically Kieta has lost the ball less than the rest, well I accept that, although any argument that the midfield (any of them) have been good this season would be hard to support.

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Offline Le Westalero

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15187 on: January 30, 2023, 11:16:30 pm »
In my opinion, Kieta gives the ball away way too much, we are so vulnerable to a counter lately, that that kind of error is really bad for Liverpool. Hes one of the worst players for giving away the ball, or taking too long to pass... Hes a liability now more than most in that midfield..

Since the 0-3 against we got better in not getting counter attacked all the time, conceded 2 goals in 3 games and guess who started in all 3 of them?

But let me know, who would you like to start instead of him?

Keita is one of our best midfielders and for sure better in comparison to Fab, Hendo, Ox...

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15188 on: January 31, 2023, 09:35:59 am »
In my opinion, Kieta gives the ball away way too much, we are so vulnerable to a counter lately, that that kind of error is really bad for Liverpool. Hes one of the worst players for giving away the ball, or taking too long to pass... Hes a liability now more than most in that midfield..

Consistently awful takes in this thread for years. If you don't see what Keita brings to this midfield, particularly in light of other midfield performances, you don't understand football.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15189 on: January 31, 2023, 10:07:43 am »
He played pretty well, gave Bajčetić some cover, fed Gakpo, Elliot and Mo with enough balls to give them something to work with and was in general much more productive and purposeful than for example Thiago.

Offline Realgman

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15190 on: January 31, 2023, 05:13:05 pm »
in light of other midfield performances, which are?
And there's no need for the patronising "you don't understand football"
do I presume you have this understanding, but at the most superior level?


Consistently awful takes in this thread for years. If you don't see what Keita brings to this midfield, particularly in light of other midfield performances, you don't understand football.
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Offline Realgman

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15191 on: January 31, 2023, 05:17:56 pm »
Hes one of our only remaining functioning midfielders.. thats it.
And as to who i would like to see start ahead of him, someone bought in to improve the ailing midfield, one of which is Kieta..
But that's just my opinion.
comparing what is bad now  with what is just as bad doesn't negate the initial assessment of bad..

Since the 0-3 against we got better in not getting counter attacked all the time, conceded 2 goals in 3 games and guess who started in all 3 of them?

But let me know, who would you like to start instead of him?

Keita is one of our best midfielders and for sure better in comparison to Fab, Hendo, Ox...
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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15192 on: January 31, 2023, 07:40:39 pm »
If you don't see what Keita brings to this midfield, particularly in light of other midfield performances, you don't understand football.

There it is... ;D
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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15193 on: January 31, 2023, 09:50:44 pm »
in light of other midfield performances, which are?
And there's no need for the patronising "you don't understand football"
do I presume you have this understanding, but at the most superior level?

Most of our games this year and most of Fabinho and Henderson’s performances. In light of those performances Keita is an obvious upgrade right now. And if you don’t see the extra stability and control we get with him in the team then you don’t understand what you’re watching when you watch us :)

Offline mrantarctica

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15194 on: February 1, 2023, 02:24:32 am »
Most of our games this year and most of Fabinho and Henderson’s performances. In light of those performances Keita is an obvious upgrade right now. And if you don’t see the extra stability and control we get with him in the team then you don’t understand what you’re watching when you watch us :)

There it is again, just in many more words!  ;D

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15195 on: February 1, 2023, 03:11:45 am »
You all must have missed their first goal then typical cowardice from keita. Not surprised he was hauled off after 58 minutes. Move him on ASAP.

He isn't even the closest to the man on the edge of the box, 99/100 he would have blocked the shot. It's a complete fluke of a goal and to hold him responsible just makes you look unhinged.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15196 on: February 1, 2023, 10:53:02 am »
Well, he has to start as the alternative is Jordan Henderson.

Naby should play hard to find himself the best possible club in the summer, that's all really. That and stay
fit, we are neither in the mood or position to weather another injury.
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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15197 on: February 1, 2023, 12:01:40 pm »
There it is again, just in many more words!  ;D

 It seems that most of the posters in this thread realise that he's an upgrade on all our other options right now for RCM but I'm sick of defending his (on pitch) performances in here with a minority. It's reached the stage that people really, really should see what he brings, ESPECIALLY given the catastrophy that our midfield is this season. He's slow, he looks like he's running in treacle when he gets turned around and facing his own goal, he's injury prone. But there's so obviously an improvement with him in the team I don't know what people are playing at coming in here and making negative comments. It's like complaining about the colour of the kitchen tiles whilst the cooker is going up in flames and the curtains are catching.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15198 on: February 1, 2023, 10:19:03 pm »
the catastrophy

At least that's one trophy we're still in the running for.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #15199 on: February 4, 2023, 05:01:09 pm »
Had 2 great chances in the second half and fluffed both of them… he’s got to do better.

I was so excited when we signed him but due to bad luck and injuries he’s turned out to be such an underwhelming signing. What a shame
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