Author Topic: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!  (Read 562575 times)

Offline Flaccido Dongingo

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I'll bite when I know I shouldn't,  but why are you equating voting for Labour as voting for Corbyn?

If you want to put it that way, then the Red Wall voted for Bozo and not for Corbyn, which is hardly flattering for the man.

Anyway, enough. I dont want this thread locked again.
I was wondering how long it would take, but here we are, we can finally blame Russias Invasion of Ukraine on Mr Corbyn.

Offline Sangria

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I was wondering how long it would take, but here we are, we can finally blame Russias Invasion of Ukraine on Mr Corbyn.

Are you trying to singlehandedly shut down the politics forum?
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Flaccido Dongingo

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Are you trying to singlehandedly shut down the politics forum?
More of a tongue in cheek comment (obviously), no less salient though, my comment is more of a wider critique on the need for scapegoats.

Offline Sangria

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More of a tongue in cheek comment (obviously), no less salient though, my comment is more of a wider critique on the need for scapegoats.

The need for your wider critique apparently outweighs the need for a politics forum on RAWK.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Flaccido Dongingo

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The need for your wider critique apparently outweighs the need for a politics forum on RAWK.
Well I'll take that under advisement, but one thread and reply would have been sufficient fella.
« Last Edit: August 6, 2022, 12:37:51 am by Flaccido Dongingo »

Offline Byrnee

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It was turning into another Corbyn shitshow, like every other thread he gets mentioned in. Any more and thread is locked.

Well given these were quotes from the former Leader of the Opposition in the UK, a man who could have been running the country when Russia invaded, I think it's pretty important to leave comments lie at the least which referenced these facts. If you say stupid shit it should be amplified to ensure no-one is in any doubt about the character of the person saying it.

We've just seen Martin Tyler say some stupid shit and he's rightly been held to account. Why not Corbyn? When Ukrainians are fighting for their lives and Russia are threatening the worldwide peace we have largely had for 80 years I think it's astonishing that a UK politician would come out in favour letting the Russians win their invasion and end the independence of a sovereign state.

Sure delete this but what is the point of a thread about Russia and Ukraine if it doesn't allow for important and popular political figures views on Ukraine? If this was some backwater Republican saying we shouldn't sanction Russia or Arm Ukraine it would be newsworthy (and contemptible). It is important to call out this shit to ensure everyone understands the danger of this type of attitude to conflict and the inherent dangers. Corbyn is not the only one who thinks like this and it's worthwhile to ensure in our own small way we can argue the merits of why his statement is so damning and incendiary.
« Last Edit: August 6, 2022, 09:13:53 am by Byrnee »
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At The End Of The Storm I

Offline Yorkykopite

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I was wondering how long it would take, but here we are, we can finally blame Russias Invasion of Ukraine on Mr Corbyn.

Give it a rest. No one has blamed your boy for that.

No one has blamed Melanchon either. Or various extremists on Right and Left of European politics. But their idea of 'peace' is of Ukrainian surrender and the permanent existence of Russian armed forces in large sections of the country. It's a sort of Vichy peace, if you know your history.
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I was wondering how long it would take, but here we are, we can finally blame Russias Invasion of Ukraine on Mr Corbyn.

Not sure how you manage to draw that conclusion from my post, but seeing as Corbyn seemingly wants to blame everyone but Russia for Russia's invasion of Ukraine then I guess it evens out, so you do you. :)
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Offline Sangria

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As the mods have already said their bit, can we give this a rest?
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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As the mods have already said their bit, can we give this a rest?
Well, I am full agreement with Byrnee. The remarks from wee man Corbyn are not that important in of themselves, but they do speak for many Labour supporters and represent a wide discourse espoused diehard Corbynites and the like (and true Russian shills too) across social media. Those comments and attitudes surely deserve to be challenged. Some of my posts were removed too - but nothing I wrote could be remotely described as abusive. Sure, remove abusive content, but why the other stuff too?

I have a copy of a post mine which was deleted. It was very critical of Corbyn, yes, but not of anyone here. It was on-topic since the comments from Corbyn about the Ukraine war were reported widely in the press and are what prompted my comments here in a thread about the Ukraine war! Like it or not, Corbyn still has a voice and speaks for many (including some here). It is certainly - if unfortunately - newsworthy.

I was going to re-post my deleted comments, but I guess that would be taken as me being deliberately provocative. I am not trying to get myself banned. Instead, I am going to take a self-imposed break and see if I wish to remain active here. It will be a shame to leave because I live abroad and the politics section here acts as great filter for the news I am interested in from home.

Although I am certain that this is not the intention of the moderators, the removal of those posts amounts to an effective whitewash. Members should live and die my their words here - surely this is at the core of what makes a message board. And, for what it is worth, I run my own message board - I understand the problems of moderation. At my community, we do disallow some kinds of content (including politics, as it happens), but there are other areas which causes tension and argument on the forum. There are often arguments, but we take moderation action against the individuals involved, not the community as a whole. Very rarely do we lock threads, and exceedingly rarely do we remove posts. In the main, I suggest let the comments stand and tackle abusive behaviour of individuals. There are even systems available with the forum software to help with this: suspend accounts (read-only) with an automatic countdown clock; or the ability to queue posts from a problem member which requires the approval of a moderator before it is published. These punishments usually work very well - members generally hate these kinds of restrictions. Anyway, just a suggestion. Of course RAWK can (and should) operate its moderation system as it deems fit. But, as you would no doubt say - and I would in your shoes - I don't have to like it.

I am with Byrnee on this matter.
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Offline rafathegaffa83

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Can't believe there is shelling around Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant again. Feels like a disaster is just waiting to happen as it's not the first time there has been attacks around it

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CIA Spy talking about Ukraine etc, pretty grim

https://youtu.be/T3FC7qIAGZk?t=755

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Ukraine Update: As Ukraine hits Kherson bridges, a surprise missile makes its exciting combat debut
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2022/8/8/2115097/-Ukraine-Update-As-Ukraine-hits-Kherson-bridges-a-surprise-missile-makes-its-exciting-combat-debut 

Some very interesting Ukrainian -Russia analysis
this poster seems to  know what they are doing and there are daily summaries of tweets, videos, military analysis etc

Offline dutchkop

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Well, I am full agreement with Byrnee. The remarks from wee man Corbyn are not that important in of themselves, but they do speak for many Labour supporters and represent a wide discourse espoused diehard Corbynites and the like (and true Russian shills too) across social media. Those comments and attitudes surely deserve to be challenged. Some of my posts were removed too - but nothing I wrote could be remotely described as abusive. Sure, remove abusive content, but why the other stuff too?

I have a copy of a post mine which was deleted. It was very critical of Corbyn, yes, but not of anyone here. It was on-topic since the comments from Corbyn about the Ukraine war were reported widely in the press and are what prompted my comments here in a thread about the Ukraine war! Like it or not, Corbyn still has a voice and speaks for many (including some here). It is certainly - if unfortunately - newsworthy.

I was going to re-post my deleted comments, but I guess that would be taken as me being deliberately provocative. I am not trying to get myself banned. Instead, I am going to take a self-imposed break and see if I wish to remain active here. It will be a shame to leave because I live abroad and the politics section here acts as great filter for the news I am interested in from home.

Although I am certain that this is not the intention of the moderators, the removal of those posts amounts to an effective whitewash. Members should live and die my their words here - surely this is at the core of what makes a message board. And, for what it is worth, I run my own message board - I understand the problems of moderation. At my community, we do disallow some kinds of content (including politics, as it happens), but there are other areas which causes tension and argument on the forum. There are often arguments, but we take moderation action against the individuals involved, not the community as a whole. Very rarely do we lock threads, and exceedingly rarely do we remove posts. In the main, I suggest let the comments stand and tackle abusive behaviour of individuals. There are even systems available with the forum software to help with this: suspend accounts (read-only) with an automatic countdown clock; or the ability to queue posts from a problem member which requires the approval of a moderator before it is published. These punishments usually work very well - members generally hate these kinds of restrictions. Anyway, just a suggestion. Of course RAWK can (and should) operate its moderation system as it deems fit. But, as you would no doubt say - and I would in your shoes - I don't have to like it.

I am with Byrnee on this matter.

some great  and some personal reflection comments here

for the Russian invasion and other politics I would recommend DailyKos community. I do not like all the ads and sometimes one get sick of the US bias in politics. I do not post there - but view the daily and weekly updates and follow a few posters  that cover some great topics.

I must admit that some of the diverse threads on RAWK are amazing and this is one thread  that has also been very interesting to follow

Offline Yorkykopite

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some great  and some personal reflection comments here

for the Russian invasion and other politics I would recommend DailyKos community. I do not like all the ads and sometimes one get sick of the US bias in politics. I do not post there - but view the daily and weekly updates and follow a few posters  that cover some great topics.

I must admit that some of the diverse threads on RAWK are amazing and this is one thread  that has also been very interesting to follow

I liked the comment too.

As the fuel crisis deepens over the coming months I expect there will be some pressure to desert Ukraine. That is the context in which Jeremy Corbyn's comments must be seen. At the moment there is not a great deal of political pressure within EU and NATO countries to pull the rug from under Ukraine. It is confined mainly to neo-fascists like Viktor Orban in Hungary and the Brothers of Italy in - ahem - Italy. Corbyn, fortunately, is now a marginal voice in British politics but his views about Putin and Ukraine - and those of Melenchon's in France - are not so far removed from the neo-fascists. This is the 'horseshoe theory' we hear so much about where extreme Right meets extreme Left (as it always has done).

I dread to think what would have become of Ukraine if Trump had won his election and Corbyn had won his (and Melenchon or Le Pen had beaten Macron). But there is a good chance that the political tide will turn against Zelenskey and Ukraine if the Far Right are able to form a government in Italy in the next few weeks. 
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Offline Mister Flip Flop

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Can't believe there is shelling around Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant again. Feels like a disaster is just waiting to happen as it's not the first time there has been attacks around it

Could be an absolutely horrific outcome for the planet if not sorted soon. Some sort of UN peacekeeping force is desperately needed there asap.
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Offline thaddeus

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Could be an absolutely horrific outcome for the planet if not sorted soon. Some sort of UN peacekeeping force is desperately needed there asap.
If it's true that Russia are using it as a base to launch missiles from then that's a new low for this war (and there's been some very low lows already!).  I presume a misfired rocket could spell catastrophe.

Apparently Russia intend to sever it from the Ukrainian national grid and instead connect it to the Russian national grid.  I don't know if that's even feasible but it sounds like Russia are certainly keen to keep it within their control so it's going to be tough for Ukraine to retake it without risking irreparable damage.

Offline Red46

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I’ve no idea why people are obsessing over Jeremy Corbyn and keep throwing his name into the hat re Ukraine, the fella just doesn’t want a nuclear war, sorry if it pisses some of you off. I thought he couldn’t be mentioned as well, what happened to that?

Offline Bend It Like Aurelio

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Americans secretly supplying Anti-Radiation missiles to Ukraine.

https://twitter.com/noclador/status/1556751670402596865?s=21&t=pUsGSAGDxhNZtPd8EmMnow

This is a fairly big deal that will go under the radar. For those that don’t understand, these are missiles used to attack radar systems for air defense systems. Opens up a lot more possibilities for the Ukrainian Air Force and the drones.

Offline Yorkykopite

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I’ve no idea why people are obsessing over Jeremy Corbyn and keep throwing his name into the hat re Ukraine, the fella just doesn’t want a nuclear war, sorry if it pisses some of you off. I thought he couldn’t be mentioned as well, what happened to that?

It's because of this 7 days ago:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/02/jeremy-corbyn-urges-west-to-stop-arming-ukraine

He doesn't mention nuclear war (he has long wanted to prevent Ukraine from applying for NATO membership so that is more likely to be the motivating factor for Corbyn).

But you raise a good question anyway. Should the West simply give Russia (and China) extra territory and economic power to prevent a nuclear war?
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

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It's because of this 7 days ago:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/02/jeremy-corbyn-urges-west-to-stop-arming-ukraine

He doesn't mention nuclear war (he has long wanted to prevent Ukraine from applying for NATO membership so that is more likely to be the motivating factor for Corbyn).

But you raise a good question anyway. Should the West simply give Russia (and China) extra territory and economic power to prevent a nuclear war?

He also said this

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/apr/20/jeremy-corbyn-would-like-to-see-nato-ultimately-disband

Jeremy Corbyn would like to see Nato ‘ultimately disband’

The former Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn said he hoped military alliances like Nato could be ultimately disbanded, saying they could create “greater danger” in the world.

In comments that are likely to inflame further tensions with Labour HQ, Corbyn said he did not blame Nato for the Russian invasion of Ukraine but that it had to be looked at in historical context.

Corbyn is currently suspended from holding the Labour whip after comments made in the wake of the Equality and Human Rights Commission report into antisemitism in the party under his leadership.

The Islington North MP said that people should “look at the process that could happen at the end of the Ukraine war” and questioned: “Do military alliances bring peace?”

“I would want to see a world where we start to ultimately disband all military alliances,” he told Times Radio. “The issue has to be: what’s the best way of bringing about peace in the future? Is it by more alliances? Is it by more military buildup?

“Or is it by stopping the war in Ukraine and the other wars … that are going on at the present time, which are also killing a very large number of people? And ask yourself the question: do military alliances bring peace? Or do they actually encourage each other and build up to a greater danger?

“I don’t blame Nato for the fact that Russia has invaded Ukraine. What I say is look at the thing historically, and look at the process that could happen at the end of the Ukraine war.”

The former leader said he would be “supporting Ukraine’s right to defend itself” if he was PM but would be focused on encouraging dialogue. Asked whether he backed Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, he said: “I’ve never met him. I don’t know … I think he speaks well and I admire that.”

Corbyn said the decision not to readmit him as a Labour MP was a “wrong, totally unjustified decision” by Labour leader Keir Starmer.

Starmer told the Guardian last week that further comments by Corbyn, including his support for the Stop the War Coalition, had made his readmittance more difficult, saying he expected all Labour MPs to be supportive of Nato and not to draw “false equivalence” between Russia and Nato.

Those comments led to a swift rebuttal from the former shadow chancellor John McDonnell, who said there had been commitment to Nato under Corbyn’s leadership.

“A commitment to Nato has been Labour policy democratically determined by party conference and accepted by every Labour leader for inclusion in every Labour manifesto, including by Jeremy Corbyn, since Nato’s inception,” he tweeted.

“If we can’t be honest in our assessments of Nato’s performance, lessons for how it performs its role in the future will never be learnt. On this basis I see no reason why Jeremy Corbyn doesn’t meet these new conditions for entitlement to the Labour whip.”
Poor.

Offline Yorkykopite

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I think he's wrong about NATO. I believe it's been a good thing to have such a military alliance and I disagree with him when he implies that it has made Europe a more dangerous place to be. On the contrary it has helped keep the peace in Europe since 1945 (by enlarge) by deterring Soviet - and now Russian - aggression. I also don't blame Finland and Sweden for wanting to be part of it as soon as it saw the consequences for Ukraine of not being part of a defensive military alliance.

But that's an interesting article Andy (I'm not sure I saw it back in April). It's interesting because Corbyn says that he does not blame Ukrainians for the Russian invasion of their country. Not much of a concession, true, but a different position, seemingly, from the one he now propounds - which is for the West to cease sending arms to Ukraine. Everyone knows that if that happened Ukraine's military capacity to defend itself would collapse and Russia would annex huge amounts of Ukrainian territory into its own Empire. That's a big thing. It makes you wonder 'what has changed' to make Corbyn change his mind? Ukraine was not to blame for being invaded back in April. Ukraine should be defeated and Russia should be triumphant in August. Why?
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Offline Bend It Like Aurelio

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I think the debate should shift (if at all) to whether or not military alliances are a problem, as Corbyn has maintained, or whether or not they actually serve a purpose. Corbyn is not unique in his views on pacifism and military alliances in general, so I think this discussion shouldn't be limited to him and his views. I don't agree with Corbyn's views in general, but I also don't have a bone to pick in this fight either.

I'm just surprised there isn't a dedicated Corbyn thread for people to vent their frustrations one way or another, though I imagine this probably existed once upon a time. The discussions here feel overly personal to me, perhaps there are a lot of people who want to talk about this and make themselves heard.

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I think the debate should shift (if at all) to whether or not military alliances are a problem, as Corbyn has maintained, or whether or not they actually serve a purpose. Corbyn is not unique in his views on pacifism and military alliances in general, so I think this discussion shouldn't be limited to him and his views. I don't agree with Corbyn's views in general, but I also don't have a bone to pick in this fight either.

I'm just surprised there isn't a dedicated Corbyn thread for people to vent their frustrations one way or another, though I imagine this probably existed once upon a time. The discussions here feel overly personal to me, perhaps there are a lot of people who want to talk about this and make themselves heard.

This was the last Corbyn thread




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Poor.

Offline Bend It Like Aurelio

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This was the last Corbyn thread




He's like Marmite. You either love him more than life itself, or you think he's a very naughty boy.

From what I can see here, I can imagine.

Offline KillieRed

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I think the debate should shift (if at all) to whether or not military alliances are a problem, as Corbyn has maintained, or whether or not they actually serve a purpose. Corbyn is not unique in his views on pacifism and military alliances in general, so I think this discussion shouldn't be limited to him and his views. I don't agree with Corbyn's views in general, but I also don't have a bone to pick in this fight either.

I'm just surprised there isn't a dedicated Corbyn thread for people to vent their frustrations one way or another, though I imagine this probably existed once upon a time. The discussions here feel overly personal to me, perhaps there are a lot of people who want to talk about this and make themselves heard.

Perhaps we should have an open week so everyone can post their opinion on Corbyn then never mention him again. A redacted post whenever anyone mentions him. You might as well bring up Harold Wilson or Neil Kinnock when you talk about him now ( whichever side of the divide you fall on).
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Perhaps we should have an open week so everyone can post their opinion on Corbyn then never mention him again. A redacted post whenever anyone mentions him. You might as well bring up Harold Wilson or Neil Kinnock when you talk about him now ( whichever side of the divide you fall on).

Poor.

Offline Yorkykopite

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99 per cent of this thread isn't about Corbyn of course. He became a 'live' issue earlier this week after he gave an interview saying that the West should disown Ukraine. This was not an insignificant interview given that Corbyn is the former leader of the Labour party who might, if the cards had fallen differently, be the Prime Minister today.

Then the question becomes, was the debate on point or was it mainly abuse. A mod removed the evidence, which is a pity. But I don't remember any abuse. It seemed on point.

No doubt Henry Kissinger will soon give another one of his interviews explaining why Putin should be allowed to win. In that case we'll almost certainly end up dropping Corbyn and discussing that. Same discussion, different names. That's fair enough isn't it? 

My own feeling is that the Kissinger-Corbyn line will become more popular with the general public once fuel bills go through the roof this winter. Then what will become of Ukraine?
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I think he's wrong about NATO. I believe it's been a good thing to have such a military alliance and I disagree with him when he implies that it has made Europe a more dangerous place to be. On the contrary it has helped keep the peace in Europe since 1945 (by enlarge) by deterring Soviet - and now Russian - aggression. I also don't blame Finland and Sweden for wanting to be part of it as soon as it saw the consequences for Ukraine of not being part of a defensive military alliance.

But that's an interesting article Andy (I'm not sure I saw it back in April). It's interesting because Corbyn says that he does not blame Ukrainians for the Russian invasion of their country. Not much of a concession, true, but a different position, seemingly, from the one he now propounds - which is for the West to cease sending arms to Ukraine. Everyone knows that if that happened Ukraine's military capacity to defend itself would collapse and Russia would annex huge amounts of Ukrainian territory into its own Empire. That's a big thing. It makes you wonder 'what has changed' to make Corbyn change his mind? Ukraine was not to blame for being invaded back in April. Ukraine should be defeated and Russia should be triumphant in August. Why?

This is the age old problem i.e. proving something works when the outcome is that nothing happens. I think by virtue of the fact that NATO has largely prevented European conflict is in itself evidence of its success. It no doubt also helped with the various treaties that were signed on nuclear stockpiles being reduced in the 70's and 80's.
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Offline AndyInVA

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CIA Spy talking about Ukraine etc, pretty grim

https://youtu.be/T3FC7qIAGZk?t=755

I've listened to his podcast for a while and never quite knew what to make of him. Sometimes he sounds like an arrogant nut, other times he sounds fairly switched on. Interesting to see him talk in real life.

Offline Bend It Like Aurelio

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This is the age old problem i.e. proving something works when the outcome is that nothing happens. I think by virtue of the fact that NATO has largely prevented European conflict is in itself evidence of its success. It no doubt also helped with the various treaties that were signed on nuclear stockpiles being reduced in the 70's and 80's.

Deterrence has brought the longest period of peace in the modern era. It's proven that it works, and so has globalism to a certain extent. I remember the stories my parents told about WW2 and how it affected their childhood, but soon there will be no stories to tell, and a new generation will grow up and take the peace we have today for granted.

Offline Yorkykopite

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This is the age old problem i.e. proving something works when the outcome is that nothing happens. I think by virtue of the fact that NATO has largely prevented European conflict is in itself evidence of its success. It no doubt also helped with the various treaties that were signed on nuclear stockpiles being reduced in the 70's and 80's.

It is hard to prove. I remember a very clever letter to the Guardian in the 1980s from a CND supporter saying that he'd smoked 20 cigarettes a day for 60 years and was still alive and healthy. Conclusion? Cigarettes cure cancer.

I used to support unilateral disarmament back then. But now I think I was wrong. The older I get the more deeply I am impressed with the achievement of NATO (including the nuclear element of the alliance). But I still keep the Guardian letter at the back of my mind.

I think we also have to admit that peace in Europe was purchased at a price. One price was slavery in eastern Europe. The West could do nothing about the Soviet invasion of Hungary in 1956. Likewise in 1968 when Russian tanks rolled into Czechoslovakia and crushed the revolution. We also had to pretend that the East German workers' uprising of 1953 didn't happen and for several years we were effectively bystanders when Solidarnosc was being hounded and smashed. Almost as bad was our toleration of Franco and the Greek military junta because they were seen to be anti-Soviet. Then there is the question of the post-colonial world. It's possible that peace in Europe was purchased on the back of Vietnam, Angola, Afghanistan etc. That's what many critics of the western alliance say.

However I do believe that Putin would have tried to re-conquer the Baltic states before now had NATO not been in existence. And I feel sure that if Ukraine (with our help) can beat back the Russian bear its long-term security (and European peace) will be best served by their becoming a member of NATO.
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Perhaps we should have an open week so everyone can post their opinion on Corbyn then never mention him again. A redacted post whenever anyone mentions him. You might as well bring up Harold Wilson or Neil Kinnock when you talk about him now ( whichever side of the divide you fall on).

A bit like a knife amnesty  ;)



« Last Edit: August 9, 2022, 11:52:46 am by Red-Soldier »

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NATO is critically important. It encourages global cooperation between allies, establishes a unified chain of command and coordination, boosts diplomacy and networking, and to my mind enables the easier sharing of military and intelligence assets. It also likely helps keep the peace between NATO members who might otherwise be at each other's throats.

There are likely many tangible benefits to NATO thar most regular people never see, but would immediately notice the absence of them. I'm not putting it on the same level as the EU, but given most NATO members are also European countries, then I'd say there are similarities.

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NATO is critically important. It encourages global cooperation between allies, establishes a unified chain of command and coordination, boosts diplomacy and networking, and to my mind enables the easier sharing of military and intelligence assets. It also likely helps keep the peace between NATO members who might otherwise be at each other's throats.

There are likely many tangible benefits to NATO thar most regular people never see, but would immediately notice the absence of them. I'm not putting it on the same level as the EU, but given most NATO members are also European countries, then I'd say there are similarities.

There are very definitely similarities. In fact my vote to remain was not based on any financial thought process, legal issues or trade. It was based purely and simply on the fact that there has been peace in Europe for the longest period in 100's of years as a result. Countries working together, coordinating defence, intelligence and generally the welfare of populations can only be a good thing in the long term.

What I question in relation to Ukraine is the signalling to Putin at an early stage that NATO (or the US) wouldn`t get directly involved. I think that was a monumental mistake. The threat of direct involvement should have been left as an option.

I do wonder if there are still 'direct channels' of communication open between senior military people in NATO/US and Russia ?  I know that there were and indeed there are between the US and China (Trump playing silly buggers over North Korea caused calls between senior Generals in the US/China).
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99 per cent of this thread isn't about Corbyn of course. He became a 'live' issue earlier this week after he gave an interview saying that the West should disown Ukraine. This was not an insignificant interview given that Corbyn is the former leader of the Labour party who might, if the cards had fallen differently, be the Prime Minister today.

Then the question becomes, was the debate on point or was it mainly abuse. A mod removed the evidence, which is a pity. But I don't remember any abuse. It seemed on point.

No doubt Henry Kissinger will soon give another one of his interviews explaining why Putin should be allowed to win. In that case we'll almost certainly end up dropping Corbyn and discussing that. Same discussion, different names. That's fair enough isn't it? 

My own feeling is that the Kissinger-Corbyn line will become more popular with the general public once fuel bills go through the roof this winter. Then what will become of Ukraine?

Have to hope that Ukraine gains some momentum militarily (in the field or through PR spin) over the coming 6-8 weeks before winter's onset.

Speaking of, massive explosions this afternoon at Russia's Saki Airbase, deep in Crimea. The base is out of range of Ukraine's current missile inventory, possibly indicating they may have gotten their hands on some new and longer range tactical missiles.

https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1556996656079507456?s=20&t=vz0SvBY4z-xZuVttHdE45A
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It's because of this 7 days ago:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/02/jeremy-corbyn-urges-west-to-stop-arming-ukraine

He doesn't mention nuclear war (he has long wanted to prevent Ukraine from applying for NATO membership so that is more likely to be the motivating factor for Corbyn).

But you raise a good question anyway. Should the West simply give Russia (and China) extra territory and economic power to prevent a nuclear war?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuIM4_C7wOU


He doesnt mention nuclear war specifically but does mention the fear of escalation to a War between USA and Russia, quite feasibly one that could go nuclear.

He also says we should provide defensive weapons, like Anti Tank Missiles and Humanitarian Aid to Ukraine c.8.30 mins

The truth of the interview rather makes a mockery of the headlines.

He also wants Putin investigated for war crimes.  So Id suggest hes not quite the Shill you have labelled him.


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Reports of long range strikes made against Russian forces/bases in Crimea (200kms from front line) and Kherson (~150kms beyond the front line). Either special ops or the Ukrainians have their hands on new weapons. Either way, will put the shits up the Russians as those were meant to be “safe” areas.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuIM4_C7wOU


He doesnt mention nuclear war specifically but does mention the fear of escalation to a War between USA and Russia, quite feasibly one that could go nuclear.

He also says we should provide defensive weapons, like Anti Tank Missiles and Humanitarian Aid to Ukraine c.8.30 mins

The truth of the interview rather makes a mockery of the headlines.

He also wants Putin investigated for war crimes.  So Id suggest hes not quite the Shill you have labelled him.



But this interview was given in April. The headlines refer to the very different interview he gave 7 days ago.

As I say in my post, I wonder what has made him change his mind? Because it's pretty clear now that he wants Ukraine defenceless and at the mercy of Russian imperialism. If he has talked about Russia withdrawing its invading military forces from a foreign country and handing back conquered territory to the government it legitimately belongs to then I have missed it, and I'm sorry. Otherwise I say again - he's a shill for Russia.
« Last Edit: August 9, 2022, 06:37:06 pm by Yorkykopite »
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But this interview was given in April. The headlines refer to the very different interview he gave 7 days ago.

As I say in my post, I wonder what has made him change his mind? Because it's pretty clear now that he wants Ukraine defenceless and at the mercy of Russian imperialism. If he has talked about Russia withdrawing its invading military forces from a foreign country and handing back conquered territory to the government it legitimately belongs to then I have missed it, and I'm sorry. Otherwise I say again - he's a shill for Russia.

My error, thought it was the same interview.

https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/exclusive:-arms-flow-to-ukraine-will-not-bring-peace---corby
Here are details from  the from the Al Mayadeen website (they conducted the interview you linked too)  He says arming them will prolong war, not that we should stop helping. Unless you know of different quotes ?

His rhetoric, as far as I can see hasnt changed.  Maybe the reporting and headlines have

Here he is asking for Russian withdraw

https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1496827583828312070?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1496827583828312070%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=

and again here
https://jeremycorbyn.org.uk/crisis-in-ukraine/

Do you have any quotes that he wants Ukraine defenceless?