Author Topic: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!  (Read 949293 times)

Offline Sangria

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You have to wonder why Russia even needs troops from Belarus, except only as cannon fodder?

On paper, Russia has the manpower and military material to easily overpower Ukraine, or so we all thought. It's tempting to think Putin wants to keep forces fresh for other ventures, like the Baltic states.

I'd expect a lot of conscripts from Belarus to defect once in Ukraine. That would likely lead to bloody reprisals.

They're running out of expendable willing provincials, and they don't want to use racially superior European Russians.
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Online farawayred

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They're running out of expendable willing provincials, and they don't want to use racially superior European Russians.
They are all Russians, mate, even if they don't know it. Even the Ukrainians. That goes for almost all Eastern Europe too. But Putin, the righteous one, will put them straight...

I don't know how one can be so out of touch with reality and have a Napoleon complex of which Napoleon himself would be envious. Look at what's happening in Bulgaria, for example. Bulgaria is expelling 70 Russian diplomats on spying charges. The Russian ambassador, Mitrofanova, poses an ultimatum to get the decision reversed or else (Russia will close the embassy). An ultimatum from Russia to an independent country?! After the 70 leave, they will still have some 40 personnel, when there are 24 Bulgarian counterparts in Moscow. What does one think are 110+ people doing in a country like Bulgaria, which has no political influence or military might? Why is there so much disparity in the respective mission numbers? This is how the Russian intelligence infiltrates Europe. And it's not just Bulgaria, all the former Eastern European countries are serving the same purpose. Europe should find a way to counteract that.

Ah, never mind, I'm just venting...
« Last Edit: July 3, 2022, 05:44:35 pm by farawayred »
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Offline Sangria

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They are all Russians, mate, even if they don't know it. Even the Ukrainians. That goes for almost all Eastern Europe too. But Putin, the righteous one, will put them straight...

I don't know how one can be so out of touch with reality and have a Napoleon complex of which Napoleon himself would be envious. Look at what's happening in Bulgaria, for example. Bulgaria is expelling 70 Russian diplomats on spying charges. The Russian ambassador, Mitrofanova, poses an ultimatum to get the decision reversed or else (Russia will close the embassy). An ultimatum from Russia to an independent country?! After the 70 leave, they will still have some 40 personnel, when there are 24 Bulgarian counterparts in Moscow. What does one think are 110+ people doing in a country like Bulgaria, which has no political influence or military might? Why is there so much disparity in the respective mission numbers? This is how the Russian intelligence infiltrates Europe. And it's not just Bulgaria, all the former Eastern European countries are serving the same purpose. Europe should find a way to counteract that.

Ah, never mind, I'm just venting...

Embassy ground is supposed to be the territory of the guest country. So they tried to extend that territory in Dublin, building a bunker under their existing embassy. Until the Irish government cried foul and put a stop to it.
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Online Elmo!

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Embassy ground is supposed to be the territory of the guest country. So they tried to extend that territory in Dublin, building a bunker under their existing embassy. Until the Irish government cried foul and put a stop to it.

I'm picturing them doing it Shawshank style, covering up the hold they are digging with a poster, and taking out a small amount of rubble in their pockets each day.

Offline So… Howard Philips

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I'm picturing them doing it Shawshank style, covering up the hold they are digging with a poster, and taking out a small amount of rubble in their pockets each day.

So they had an Escape Committee? Did they have a wooden horse in the grounds as well? ;D

Offline Sangria

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So they had an Escape Committee? Did they have a wooden horse in the grounds as well? ;D

Dunno about wooden, but given their penchant for hacking, they were probably keen on distributing trojans. Actually, that's what the Irish government reckoned the bunker was for.
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Offline Flaccido Dongingo

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There's no way Putin could have envisioned his actions galvanising NATO and the EU with even more members states.

Offline Sangria

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There's no way Putin could have envisioned his actions galvanising NATO and the EU with even more members states.

Putin did successfully deprive the EU of one member state.
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Offline Red Beret

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Putin did successfully deprive the EU of one member state.

Or the EU experienced the diplomatic and economic equivalent of an appendectomy.
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I have no way of judging the accuracy or objectivity of this, but it does sound mildly encouraging:

https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1543491060684492800
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Offline west_london_red

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I have no way of judging the accuracy or objectivity of this, but it does sound mildly encouraging:

https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1543491060684492800

My worry is we have been hearing these kinds of predictions for a while, the Russians will run out of men, the Russians have run out of missiles, they are running out of tanks, that the Ukrainians will turn the tide and start clawing back their territory but so far the Russians are still inching forward.
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Offline Red-Soldier

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My worry is we have been hearing these kinds of predictions for a while, the Russians will run out of men, the Russians have run out of missiles, they are running out of tanks, that the Ukrainians will turn the tide and start clawing back their territory but so far the Russians are still inching forward.

Lots of salt to be taken with that.

This conflict could roll on for quite a while yet.

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My worry is we have been hearing these kinds of predictions for a while, the Russians will run out of men, the Russians have run out of missiles, they are running out of tanks, that the Ukrainians will turn the tide and start clawing back their territory but so far the Russians are still inching forward.

But isn't that precisely the problem for them? This was meant to be over in three days. A blitzkrieg followed by a Russian occupation of Kyiv. That didn't happen. Then the Russians abandoned their northern offensive altogether to concentrate on the east and a swift victory in the Donbas. But that hasn't happened either. 
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Offline AndyInVA

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Looking at the latest maps of Russian control, it does look neat and tidy that Russia now controls all the way down to Crimea.

If there ever was to be a Russian stopping and entrenching point then this would be it.

It does look like it would be a lot of hard work by the Ukrainians to throw the Russians back over the border for the entirety of the Donbas and maybe Crimea, while at the same time securing their other borders.

It is interesting to me how it will roll out. Europe seems committed to support Ukraine as they hate Putin, but how long will it take for the war to reach a conclusion and what is that conclusion.

Offline Red Beret

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Russia has lots of war materials. Heck, I think they have 12,000 tanks alone. But not all of those will be top of the range and many will be in mothballs and need time to be reactivated.

Let's not forget: Ukraine isn't Russia's only target. They can't afford to have all their top of the line material chewed up in a months/years long attrition in one country; not if they want to go after other former Soviet states. And let's not forget how the Soviets fared in Afghanistan, either.
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Offline Lastrador

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My worry is we have been hearing these kinds of predictions for a while, the Russians will run out of men, the Russians have run out of missiles, they are running out of tanks, that the Ukrainians will turn the tide and start clawing back their territory but so far the Russians are still inching forward.
Well, they are clearly struggling on all those fronts that you mentioned, and partly is why their gains have been so slow for the last couple of months.

Manpower deficit has been a problem for a while, that's why you see them desperately conscripting people from the separatist regions, raising the military age to 65, and hiring reservists, veterans, and mercenaries on massive wages, compared to their regular salaries. We have also been seeing increasing older models of tanks, trucks, and infantry fighting vehicles, into the fold, which shows a shortage in modern equipment.

There's also been reported considerably fewer high-precision strikes on Ukrainian military targets, which is probably why we're seeing them strike shopping malls instead. They have also been going through Belarus artillery stock, which is probably of worse quality and badly maintained, so one could presume they are not exactly rich on that either.

And yes they are inching forward, but mostly in a specific part of the Donbas, at a crawl, and taking lots of damage. In other parts like in the Kharkiv and Kherson regions, even on Snake Island, they have actually been run back. The most important thing in an attrition war like this is not how much territory one can gain, but how much attrition can one force take before it breaks. At the moment it doesn't seem like any of the two forces are close to that, but in my honest opinion, in the long run, I see Russia having much more problems sustaining this war than Ukraine, as long as western support continues as it is. If western support starts to slow down and some countries backing down, then I will start to worry a lot about the future of Ukraine.

Another point in favour of Ukraine's future in the war. While they are getting an increasingly more modern weapon from the west, Russia is relying on increasing older technology. One can only suspect that will eventually have a big impact on the battlefield.
« Last Edit: July 4, 2022, 05:22:31 pm by Lastrador »

Offline Lastrador

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Russia has lots of war materials. Heck, I think they have 12,000 tanks alone. But not all of those will be top of the range and many will be in mothballs and need time to be reactivated.

Let's not forget: Ukraine isn't Russia's only target. They can't afford to have all their top of the line material chewed up in a months/years long attrition in one country; not if they want to go after other former Soviet states. And let's not forget how the Soviets fared in Afghanistan, either.
As with everything Russia claims, take it with a Rusia-sized pinch of salt.

Offline Red Beret

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As with everything Russia claims, take it with a Rusia-sized pinch of salt.

Well I did point out that was only the headline figure. I'm of the opinion that they have plenty of good equipment, but they're suddenly wary about risking it in a war of attrition that is an intelligence goldmine for their potential opponents when it comes to Russian capabilities, tactics and doctrine.
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Offline So… Howard Philips

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Well I did point out that was only the headline figure. I'm of the opinion that they have plenty of good equipment, but they're suddenly wary about risking it in a war of attrition that is an intelligence goldmine for their potential opponents when it comes to Russian capabilities, tactics and doctrine.

So Russia are winning without winning?

That sounds familiar. ;D

Offline Sangria

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So Russia are winning without winning?

That sounds familiar. ;D

I do love a stroll around Gorkysov Park.
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Offline west_london_red

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But isn't that precisely the problem for them? This was meant to be over in three days. A blitzkrieg followed by a Russian occupation of Kyiv. That didn't happen. Then the Russians abandoned their northern offensive altogether to concentrate on the east and a swift victory in the Donbas. But that hasn't happened either. 

War isn’t a zero sum game though, things not going to plan for Russia doesn’t equate with things going well for Ukraine. 20% of the country is occupied, of the two Oblasts that comprise the Donbas one is completely occupied now, the other is probably more then half occupied. The points made by Lastrador are all completely valid, yes it’s a war of attrition but there’s no guarantee Ukraine wins that and start pushing the Russians back, despite all that’s been sent in terms of weapons the Ukrainians are still outgunned as they keep telling us.
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Offline thaddeus

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War isn’t a zero sum game though, things not going to plan for Russia doesn’t equate with things going well for Ukraine. 20% of the country is occupied, of the two Oblasts that comprise the Donbas one is completely occupied now, the other is probably more then half occupied. The points made by Lastrador are all completely valid, yes it’s a war of attrition but there’s no guarantee Ukraine wins that and start pushing the Russians back, despite all that’s been sent in terms of weapons the Ukrainians are still outgunned as they keep telling us.
I suppose the question is whether Russia has the manpower and motivation to continue that occupation.  As most of the areas have been destroyed and are now uninhabitable then it's going to be difficult to maintain.  Certainly the prospect of pro-Russian citizens just taking over the cities and towns is off the table for the foreseeable future so it's going to require ongoing military deployment.  The stories coming out seem to suggest that even the current military sustenance is largely supported by looting the finite supplies of Ukrainian shops and homes.

Once Russian attention is focussed elsewhere I'd imagine the Donbas would be relatively easy for Ukraine (with international support...) to retake should they have the motivation to do so.

Offline Red Beret

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It's fair to say that neither side is winning in Ukraine. However, if Russia is not winning then they are effectively losing.

This operation was slated to last, how long? Maybe two weeks in the absolute worst case scenario? Russia is being forced to adapt it's tactics in real time. It shows. Regardless of the outcome in Ukraine, if they really do have ideas of further military expansion West, then this is the "easiest" fight they will have.

Once the plot is ripe it can no longer be concealed. Every country that shares a border with or is very close to Russia, from Finland to the Baltics to Poland, will see them coming a mile off. Even if Russia commands an army of battle hardened veterans, they will be rolling into steel jaws.
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Online Mister Flip Flop

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Was out last night with a Russian work colleague who just spent a couple of weeks in Moscow seeing family (via a somewhat circuitous route of course, including Turkey and various ‘Stans’). this is a pro-western individual, here for many years, with an Irish wife and young family. Not some Russia apologist, so I believe what he tells me.

I asked him what the mood was in Moscow among young people. Are sanctions being felt, are people nervous, frustrated with the regime etc

He told me that, yes there are many boarded up shop fronts where foreign stores used to be, but apart from that things are utterly normal. Says that the war has brought people together against the west in a way he has never seen before, including young people. There is a refreshed sense of Russian solidarity. The bars are full, everyone’s enjoying the summer in Gorky Park and the place is buzzing just like normal

People are a little nervous about the winter - shortages, prices etc. But seemingly no more so than here and across the west

I know myself, from my company, that a lot of people being reporting as leaving the country are doing so because their western companies are relocating them. Most of this is to Dubai, which seems like it’s turning into a mini Moscow right now. It’s corporate relocations, not a fleeing of young people from Putins Russia. My MNC has relocated about 30 from the Moscow office to Dubai

Long story short, there is seemingly little material anti Putin sentiment among young people and Muscovites. There is broad support for what is happening by people who do have access to non state media.

My own personal experience is that my Russian friends (and I have visited Moscow and other places a few times on my motorbike) have gone very quiet. We used to have regular chats over Facebook and IG etc.... They have definitely drawn back, which probably reflects what I have written above.



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Offline Red_Mist

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Interesting (and a tad depressing) insight ^^^ thanks.

Offline Sangria

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Interesting (and a tad depressing) insight ^^^ thanks.

And reflects what I think should be remembered. Just because we think that Russians should be thinking a certain way, doesn't mean that they do. Don't look at a relatively sparsely manned demonstration and think that it represents a deep underlying dissatisfaction with the leadership. Same with China and liberal democracy.
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Offline didi shamone

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Not surprising that Russians largely support Putin. It's a survival tool in what's becoming a totalitarian state, shut off from the civilized world. They need to convince themselves they've made a choice.
The truth is they're irrelevant and expendable. They have no options or choices. They're owned and controlled by a psychopathic dictator and his cronies.
I'll bet most North Koreans also support Kim. People choose the path of least resistance.

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From what I've seen online, it seems that the Russian sentiment among the known public is fairly anti-West, not unlike the Serbians. There is an overriding sense that, especially among the older generation, that the Americans and Europeans frequently use sanctions as a way of repressing those countries that are not as rich, and that in general their application has been highly hypocritical. And that there is no real sense that the Westerners actually want Russia to do well.

It's not just a propaganda issue, but the most obvious thing that gets repeated from the more moderate Russian side of things is why punish the ordinary citizens with wide sweeping sanctions when it wasn't them who wanted the war?

It's a catch 22 for sure. One that I can't really see the correct answer to.

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Offline So… Howard Philips

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I know myself, from my company, that a lot of people being reporting as leaving the country are doing so because their western companies are relocating them. Most of this is to Dubai, which seems like it’s turning into a mini Moscow right now. It’s corporate relocations, not a fleeing of young people from Putins Russia. My MNC has relocated about 30 from the Moscow office to Dubai

Long story short, there is seemingly little material anti Putin sentiment among young people and Muscovites. There is broad support for what is happening by people who do have access to non state media.

My own personal experience is that my Russian friends (and I have visited Moscow and other places a few times on my motorbike) have gone very quiet. We used to have regular chats over Facebook and IG etc.... They have definitely drawn back, which probably reflects what I have written above.

Just wait until Putin has expended all the provincials and has to resort to conscription, unless those in Moscow and St Petersburg can claim exemption from military service. Men of military age won’t be so blasé when the recruiting ballots are held. Americans were relaxed about Vietnam until conscription was introduced.


This elite unit have suffered major casualties, but it is conveniently based 300km from Moscow.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60946340



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When judging the effect of the recently delivered HIMARS are having on the battlefield remember this; both the Ukrainians and the relatively few Russians that can speak freely are saying the same thing - they're devastating and the Russian military simply has no counter for them.

They're also saying that relatively sophisticated Russian air defence systems like the S300 and the S400 that "should" be able to intercept HIMARS rockets (on paper) cannot.

And they're saying that the Russians have suffered significant losses in move men and materiel. And don't underestimate the effect on morale of previously safe areas now being incredibly dangerous, subject to an unstoppable HIMARS attack at any time.

This is what the Ukrainians have achieved with between 4-6 systems.

They're getting a minimum of 6 more HIMARS and 9 M270 MLRS systems (which has twice the firepower of each HIMARS system) over the next month. That's a huge amount of firepower.

And let's think about the strategic picture...

This kind of incredibly accurate, virtually unstoppable long range firepower makes a Russian strategy of "digging in and annexing" occupied territory virtually impossible. It fundamentally changes the strategic calculation.

https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1546147608644681736



Offline Red Beret

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Seems these systems Ukraine is now using are the perfect counter to Russian artillery.
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Offline west_london_red

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Following up Libertine’s post above apparently the Ukrainians have even used HIMARS to take out an S300/S400 battery which is very impressive.
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Online Bend It Like Aurelio

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Following up Libertine’s post above apparently the Ukrainians have even used HIMARS to take out an S300/S400 battery which is very impressive.

According to Girkin the Russians have no counter to the HIMARS rockets. Even their S400 batteries can’t target them. I read somewhere before that the S400 radar array design has issues with targets at Mach 2+, though probably more speculative than fact at this point.

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A necessary one at present perhaps but also a reminder of just how quickly any vestiges of democracy can disappear in certain places. From their perspective that road to the EU will be steep and long.

https://www.npr.org/2022/07/08/1110577439/zelenskyy-has-consolidated-ukraines-tv-outlets-and-dissolved-rival-political-par?t=1657526916349
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Offline So… Howard Philips

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A necessary one at present perhaps but also a reminder of just how quickly any vestiges of democracy can disappear in certain places. From their perspective that road to the EU will be steep and long.

https://www.npr.org/2022/07/08/1110577439/zelenskyy-has-consolidated-ukraines-tv-outlets-and-dissolved-rival-political-par?t=1657526916349

So the Ukrainian Government have arrested Putin supporters and closed down their radio stations?

Not quite as authoritarian as using anti ship missiles to kill shoppers in a supermarket, but balance hey?


Online Mister Flip Flop

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So the Ukrainian Government have arrested Putin supporters and closed down their radio stations?

Not quite as authoritarian as using anti ship missiles to kill shoppers in a supermarket, but balance hey?

So all the media outlets supported Putin? You'll have the facts to back this up of course.
Soccer - let's face it, its not really about a game of ball anymore is it?

Offline west_london_red

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So all the media outlets supported Putin? You'll have the facts to back this up of course.

Out of interest do you have facts to say otherwise?
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Online Mister Flip Flop

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An allegation was made that all these media outlets support Putin, it's up to the person making that accusation to provide evidence to that fact.

 I'm not sure maybe the poster is indeed on the money here and im open to being convinced.
Soccer - let's face it, its not really about a game of ball anymore is it?