Author Topic: Islamism  (Read 197053 times)

Offline Yorkykopite

  • Misses Danny Boy with a passion. Phil's Official Biographer, dontcherknow...it's all true. Honestly.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 34,482
  • The first five yards........
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1360 on: August 16, 2014, 10:57:15 am »
Are you trying to suggest therefore that killing infidels is acceptable?

Lovely shot.
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

Offline dalarr

  • hästarr. Call me sensitive.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,235
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1361 on: August 16, 2014, 10:59:37 am »
Are you trying to suggest therefore that killing infidels is acceptable?
No, I am not. Sorry, English is not my first language. The point that I was trying to make was that these thugs probably have no seconds thoughts about killing infidels because some cleric has told them that it is the right thing to do. But abducting children MUST get some of these men to question their actions
 

Offline Yorkykopite

  • Misses Danny Boy with a passion. Phil's Official Biographer, dontcherknow...it's all true. Honestly.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 34,482
  • The first five yards........
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1362 on: August 16, 2014, 11:04:28 am »
No, I am not. Sorry, English is not my first language. The point that I was trying to make was that these thugs probably have no seconds thoughts about killing infidels because some cleric has told them that it is the right thing to do. But abducting children MUST get some of these men to question their actions
 


The evidence suggest that it doesn't. Remember that to them this is The Book that can forgive anything.

It's no different to any other zealot, religious or otherwise. The party badge that could forgive anything to a Nazi or a Bolshevik. There's always a good reason to kill a million people for these believers.
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

Offline TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 94,251
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1363 on: August 16, 2014, 11:05:01 am »
No, I am not. Sorry, English is not my first language. The point that I was trying to make was that these thugs probably have no seconds thoughts about killing infidels because some cleric has told them that it is the right thing to do. But abducting children MUST get some of these men to question their actions
 
Fair enough, it's easy to forget that many posters are not in their first langauage!
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline Corkboy

  • Sworn enemy of Bottlegirl. The Boston Toilet Mangler. Grauniad of the Cidatel. Into kinky S&M with the Lash.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,382
  • Is it getting better?
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1364 on: August 16, 2014, 11:13:45 am »
No, I am not. Sorry, English is not my first language. The point that I was trying to make was that these thugs probably have no seconds thoughts about killing infidels because some cleric has told them that it is the right thing to do. But abducting children MUST get some of these men to question their actions
 

I'm pretty sure I could find some support for their actions in their Holy Book. Those fuckers in Nigeria use this:

Quote
The fourth chapter, or Surah, of the Koran is entitled “Women” or Al-Nisa’ in Arabic. Only three other chapters are longer since the Koran’s Surahs are arranged by length from the longest to the shortest. Two verses stand out prominently in Chapter Four which Boko Haram uses to justify the kidnappings.

Surah 4:3 of the Koran says, “I you fear that you cannot treat orphans with fairness , then you may marry other women who seem good to you; two, three, four of them. But if you fear that you cannot maintain equality among them, marry only one or any other slave-girls you may own. This will make it easier for you to avoid injustice.” source

The other rather obvious thing about Islam is that women are distinctly second class citizens, so it isn't a huge leap to justify treating them as property to be seized. Finally, these writings are from a much earlier time when children had much, much shorter childhoods than now. When the Muslim prophet can marry his bride at the age of 6 and have sex with her at the age of 9, you're not looking at the same concept.

Offline electricghost

  • Might haunt your wiring, but will usually stop if requested to. Lives in a spirit house in Pra Kanong.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,684
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1365 on: August 16, 2014, 11:18:28 am »
There is no justification for rape in the Quaran, is there?

Actually there is. Men are allowed to have sex with women they have captured as slaves. 

 "Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: "
“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
― Steven Weinberg

Offline dalarr

  • hästarr. Call me sensitive.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,235
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1366 on: August 16, 2014, 11:25:28 am »
Thank you for your answers.
What a depressing thread this is :(

Offline Doc Red

  • Chills before posting and wishes others had too
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,876
  • The eye cannot see what the mind does not know.
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1367 on: August 16, 2014, 03:38:24 pm »
A quick detour.
What a shitfest of a thread this has become. That didn't take long.

All religious texts are just part myth, literature, psychology, proto-philosophy, pseudoscience and they have a time and a place. I just can't get my head around anyone with even a rudimentary education not being able to see that. What forces are at work here?

Ignorance, my esteemed fellow poster. Ignorance.
Clearly, us theists are just not as intelligent as all you lot. I'm just glad that you lot can shine as a beacon of wisdom and knowledge in the midst of our ignorance, and I'm sure as long as you continue to present your factual information as unbiasedly, and as consistently as you have, that you might well drag us up there on your raised platforms so we too can also enjoy your high levels of morality and ethics.

Thank you for your answers.
What a depressing thread this is :(

Dammit.
Herein lies the dilemma. Do we now have to wade through all the utter trash spouted in this thread, whilst deflecting barbs directed against Islam, just so that the other side of the "debate" can be heard? Or do we reject the very concept that this thread has anything to do with "debating" Islamism, insofar as posters seem only interested in filling up "debate" with "facts" that are the very diet of anti-Islamic sites, in which case the likes of Dalarr will end up even more uninformed than when he first came in.

I pick option (C), I've already sent you a pm, Dalarr.
And frankly speaking, trying to learn about anything to do with Islam (or religion in general) by asking questions on a thread titled "Islamism" found cradled in the midst of a football forum, is probably not your best bet to get a factual answer. If you don't know any Muslims that can help shed light on your questions (or at least direct you to someone knowledgeable about the religion), you'll probably have a better chance of learning something with a quick google search, as opposed to coming on here.

Though it may seem that the atheists on this forum are Islamic scholars (or at the very least, deeply knowledgeable on the material), and are able to whip out verses at their whim to answer and confirm, any and all questions on the subject, I'd take everything they say with a pinch of salt. Us religious folks may be deemed ignorant and clueless, but it certainly seems our disease is already starting to afflict some of the wonderful atheists on this board.
The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth.
There go my people. I must follow them, for I am their leader.

Online zero zero

  • Karma's a bitch. Innit.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,533
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1368 on: August 16, 2014, 04:28:53 pm »
A quick detour.
What a shitfest of a thread this has become. That didn't take long.

Ignorance, my esteemed fellow poster. Ignorance.
Clearly, us theists are just not as intelligent as all you lot. I'm just glad that you lot can shine as a beacon of wisdom and knowledge in the midst of our ignorance, and I'm sure as long as you continue to present your factual information as unbiasedly, and as consistently as you have, that you might well drag us up there on your raised platforms so we too can also enjoy your high levels of morality and ethics.
Have you yet accepted the fact of evolution? If not, we are still debating the reality of the world we all share. You are essentially, no different from a flat-earther who holds on to the idea the Earth is the centre of the universe, the sun revolves around us and we're all God's special children because the bible tells us so.

I totally accept that the vast majority of Muslims find the acts if IS or Boko Haram as abhorrent as Id do. But it's clear that they (IS and Boko Haram) gain some inspiration for their actions from the Koran. Your mission to take the 'Islam' out of 'Islamism' is doomed to fail.

Offline Doc Red

  • Chills before posting and wishes others had too
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,876
  • The eye cannot see what the mind does not know.
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1369 on: August 16, 2014, 05:39:47 pm »
Have you yet accepted the fact of evolution?

Evolution in the sense that it explains how life was first created, and therefore disproves the possibility that a Supreme Being created the world? No.  And like I mentioned, I must have missed the memo. I never mentioned evolution in terms of explaining the diversity of organisms. Everyone else jumped on that, and quickly made it out like I had, simply to belittle my points, or my own understanding of the topic. But twisting sentences and presenting them in a different context than they were intended, and claiming that that interpretation was what was really meant, is generally what this thread is all about.

Additionally, I only brought it up because Alan made the following statement :
As far as religion was concerned, science was about honouring God's creation, not overturning it.
To which I replied:
And how exactly does science over turn God's creation? Unless you really believe that the theory of evolution has been scientifically proven, in which case I must have missed the memo, kindly pm me the link to that research as well.

I fail to see how science had disproved God's creation, or "overturned it" as Alan put it. Evolution in terms of diversity of organisms, is not a theory that is incompatible with there existing a God. Therefore I understood Alan to mean that Evolution in the sense of the origins of life had been scientifically proven by scientists to have been made possible via alternative means other than a Supreme Being. Which would have been an example of science overturning religion . Which isn't the case. They may have their own theories that explains the creation of life, which they consider the best of the alternatives available, but nothing that scientifically counters the stance of several religions that God created the world, and everything in it.

Needless to say, the debate of Evolution vs Creationism is well documented, and I didn't feel it neccessary to debate that topic on this thread, especially when other posters had already twisted my statements and were frolicking with merriment at their achievement.

Does that answer your question?
The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth.
There go my people. I must follow them, for I am their leader.

Offline Doc Red

  • Chills before posting and wishes others had too
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,876
  • The eye cannot see what the mind does not know.
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1370 on: August 16, 2014, 05:50:17 pm »
I totally accept that the vast majority of Muslims find the acts if IS or Boko Haram as abhorrent as Id do. But it's clear that they (IS and Boko Haram) gain some inspiration for their actions from the Koran. Your mission to take the 'Islam' out of 'Islamism' is doomed to fail.

If you mean "Islam is in Islamism" in the sense that the likes of ISIS and Boko Haram were wholly motivated to commit their acts only because they had a different interpretation of Islam, then I reject your claim. These aren't a bunch of innocent "deeply religious" scholars living peaceful lives that suddenly became violent simply because they interpreted their religion slightly differently than the rest of us.

If however, you mean "Islam is in Islamism" in that sense that you're claiming that ISIS and Boko Haram are rebels that have their own motivations in play and are trying to use Islam as a justification for their actions to be interpreted as wholly pure and religious, and/ or as an emotional marketing tool to attract youths to their cause, than we're in agreement.
The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth.
There go my people. I must follow them, for I am their leader.

Online zero zero

  • Karma's a bitch. Innit.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,533
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1371 on: August 16, 2014, 06:02:46 pm »
Couple of quick points, because I'm watching Arsenal vs Palace.

1) How life began is the field of study of abiogenesis. Though obviously is related to evolution it is a completely different field. Personally, I'm not sure scientists can ever claim to know with absolute certainty, the certainty that you have, exactly how life began billions of years ago.

2) In your quote: Unless you really believe that the theory of evolution has been scientifically proven...
You give the impression that you think it isn't. Evolution is a fact, the way that the world is spherical. It has been proved beyond doubt to anyone who doesn't approach the subject without preconceived notions.

Will reply properly later.

Offline Doc Red

  • Chills before posting and wishes others had too
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,876
  • The eye cannot see what the mind does not know.
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1372 on: August 16, 2014, 06:30:31 pm »

Sorry, not interested on debating the creation of life (or the case for abiogenisis) on this thread. You're more than welcome to pm me your thoughts and arguments for it, if that's what you mean by a longer reply.
The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth.
There go my people. I must follow them, for I am their leader.

Offline Corkboy

  • Sworn enemy of Bottlegirl. The Boston Toilet Mangler. Grauniad of the Cidatel. Into kinky S&M with the Lash.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,382
  • Is it getting better?
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1373 on: August 16, 2014, 06:50:05 pm »
I read this in the print edition, where the title was Islamic Fundamentalist, rather than Islamist, interestingly.

Tourists blissfully unaware of Islamist tide in Maldives

Once-liberal Indian Ocean archipelago has been transformed by repressive measures

Mary Boland Sat, Aug 16, 2014

On arrival in the Maldives, holidaymakers bound for the exclusive resort of Gili Lankanfushi are whisked from the airport to a speedboat, given a freshly prepared coconut to sip and a cloth bag bearing a slogan: “No News, no Shoes.” The idea is to place your shoes in the bag during the 20-minute boat journey and forget them, along with distressing world events, for the duration of your stay at the tropical island paradise.

Avoiding the headlines may be no bad thing while watching sea turtles swim under your luxurious water villa, or while walking barefoot along the sparkling lagoon’s palm-shaded white beaches. It is certainly no bad thing for the Maldivian tourism industry, because the news is not good from this resort archipelago of some 1,200 low-lying coral islands in the Indian Ocean.

In April, following a 60-year moratorium, the Muslim country’s government reactivated the death penalty. Facilities are being built at a prison on Maafushi Island to have murder convicts executed by lethal injection. The age of criminal responsibility in the Maldives is 10, but children as young as seven – who may be found guilty of certain crimes under Islamic sharia – could now potentially face a death sentence.

Executions of convicted minors would take place once they turned 18. The government has defended the measure in the face of international criticism, citing the state’s overcrowded prisons and rising violence between drug gangs.

Few tourists witness such crime or hear about how the island paradise’s faltering experiment with democracy has given way to increasingly repressive measures that have curtailed the lives of Maldivians and facilitated the rise of Islamic extremism. This is because few holidaymakers visit the capital, Malé, a crowded island not quite 6sq km resembling a Lilliputian Manhattan and home to almost half the country’s 340,000-strong population.

Tourism apartheid
Under what is often referred to locally as tourism apartheid – a policy of transferring visitors by seaplane or speedboat directly to resorts from the airport island – holidaymakers have little contact with locals. The resort islands are uninhabited beyond the hotel complexes, and most of their employees are Bangladeshi immigrants.

Spoiler for length

Spoiler
“To the tourist on a resort, the Maldives is as liberal and free as any place in the West, but outside the resorts, the Maldives is repressive and controlled,” says Aishath Velezinee, a human-rights advocate who served in the administration of pro-democracy president Mohamed Nasheed before he was ousted in 2012. The president is Abdulla Yameen, half-brother of the dictator who ruled the country for 30 years, Maumoon Abdul Gayoom.

“Bikinis, alcohol sales and consumption, unmarried and homosexual sex are all permitted in tourist resorts,” says Velezinee, “but they are all crimes outside resorts.”

Punishment for such transgressions is harsh. More than 100 public floggings are carried out each year for “fornication”, the majority on women and girls. Last year an international outcry saved a 15-year-old rape victim from 100 lashes. British prime minister David Cameron was urged to intervene, and rights groups appealed to honeymooners to avoid destinations with poor human rights records. The episode did not stop British royal couple William and Kate from holidaying in the Maldives earlier this year.

The system of double standards has had little effect on business. With more than a million visitors each year and rising, the €2.5 billion-plus tourism sector is the main source of revenue, ahead of fishing.

“The official line is that tourists – and their polluting, infidel views – should be kept away from the Maldivian people for the sake of the people’s Islamic faith. But there is another side to it,” says Azra Naseem, a Maldivian who is visiting fellow at the International Institute of Conflict Resolution and Reconstruction at Dublin City University, where she is researching the Islamic radicalisation of her country. “If tourists do not see or know about what is going on with the people of the Maldives, they will continue to keep coming. If they knew the truth they might stop.”

Fundamentalist regime
The truth, she says, is that the former British protectorate that gained independence in 1965 has been transformed from a moderate Islamic nation into an increasingly fundamentalist regime led by opportunists who have gained politically by allowing religious radicals to dictate state affairs.

“The changing of an entire population’s religious beliefs and practices within the space of a decade – in ways that roll back almost all progressive ideas that it has embraced over centuries – is extremely serious,” says Naseem.

“Salafi and Wahhabi ideologies have become not just dominant but almost the only religious ideology in town. Counter-narratives are non-existent,” he says.

“An increasing number of parents are opting to home- school children rather than ‘spoil’ them with education. Little girls are being made to wear headscarves, sexualising them as early as five or six. But to foreign observers it’s not serious because people aren’t killing each other – yet. Perhaps now that Maldivians have been found fighting in Syria with some of the most violent Islamists there may be more attention paid to the desperate situation in the country.”

 Some 20 Maldivians are known to have joined the fight against the Assad regime in Syria, and at least two have died in suicide bombings there. By saying little on the topic, argues Naseem, the government is tacitly supporting such radicals.

Critics of former dictator Gayoom, who at 76 reportedly still pulls the presidential strings, blame him for engineering the changes for his benefit.

“In the late 1990s, when fundamentalists began to emerge in Maldivian society, he clamped down hard on them” and banned the hijab, says Naseem. “As a dictator there were no repercussions for him when he jailed the radicals, even tortured them, to stop their ideas from spreading. Now he has declared himself an ally who shares their ideologies.”

Influx of preachers
Predominantly Buddhist for hundreds of years, the Maldives converted to Islam in the 12th century. A relatively relaxed version of the religion was practised under Gayoom until 2004, when an influx of preachers, funded mainly by Saudi Arabia, arrived after the tsunami. It had caused widespread damage and killed some 100 people.

“It was a turning point in the radicalisation process,” says Naseem. “Local Islamists were very clever in their use of the tragedy to convince Maldivians that the tsunami was punishment from Allah for not practising the ‘right’ Islam – which is the ‘purist’ Islam that Salafis and other fundamentalists want all Muslims to turn to.”

The result is a society transformed beyond recognition, says Velezinee: “A decade ago, women wearing the veil were a minority and women wearing the full black hijab were hardly seen. Today the Arab-style full veil is common.”

Maldivian women in their 20s and early 30s recall how they could stroll around Malé as teenagers wearing strappy tops and shorts. “Now you just couldn’t do it,” says one. “You’d be shouted at and chased.”

Opponents of the new ideology criticise the government on social media sites but dare not do so openly because their comments risk being construed as unIslamic, thus unconstitutional and liable to severe punishment. Under the constitution Maldivians must be Muslim to be citizens, and Sunni Muslim to run for political office. Religion, a taboo subject, is avoided even by journalists.

The administration will be hoping tourists continue following the “No news, no shoes” advice. So far, there is no reason to fear they won’t.
[close]

source



Offline Mutton Geoff

  • 'The Invigilator'
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,663
  • Life is a journey, not a destination.
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1374 on: August 16, 2014, 09:21:08 pm »
Sorry, not interested on debating the creation of life (or the case for abiogenisis) on this thread. You're more than welcome to pm me your thoughts and arguments for it, if that's what you mean by a longer reply.

sorry to divert this but you remind me of a member the Flat Earth Society, they didn't believe the clear evidence either;

 You also insult posters  and complain about this thread but are not willing to debate the obvious fallacies in your own point of view, re The Creation is it you wont discuss this because you have no answers to Scientific Proof which blows the Creationists Arguments clean out of the water ?
A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

Online zero zero

  • Karma's a bitch. Innit.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,533
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1375 on: August 16, 2014, 10:29:54 pm »
Evolution in the sense that it explains how life was first created, and therefore disproves the possibility that a Supreme Being created the world? No.
As I said earlier this is Abiogenesis. I like observing wildlife and have no interest in them at a molecular level, so it's not something I want to discuss either.

Quote
I never mentioned evolution in terms of explaining the diversity of organisms.
This is what evolution is. People remarked on:

Unless you really believe that the theory of evolution has been scientifically proven, in which case I must have missed the memo, kindly pm me the link to that research as well.
It's a strange mix of ignorance (evolution is scientifically proven) and misplaced arrogance. I can't provide you with your famous 'memo', but you could perhaps start with the websites for The Natural History Museum, The Zoological Society of London and The Smithsonian Institution. Richard Dawkins has also written The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution, which you'd find useful.

Quote
Everyone else jumped on that, and quickly made it out like I had, simply to belittle my points, or my own understanding of the topic. But twisting sentences and presenting them in a different context than they were intended, and claiming that that interpretation was what was really meant, is generally what this thread is all about.
You have an unending capacity for feeling persecuted. Yet, you chuck about insults to other posters, like the freshly severed heads of Syrian soldiers. Your passive-aggressive stance hinders debating anything with you. So, let's leave it there and get the thread back on track.

Offline Twelfth Man

  • Rhianna fan. my arse! Someone fill me in. Any takers? :) We are the fabulous CFC...
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 19,012
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1376 on: August 16, 2014, 11:35:31 pm »
In the Sunday Times today: Eternal Empire of the Sword - by Tom Holland

"The ghastly images posted by Isis on social media have shocked the world but to the perpetrators their act is a symbol of conquest practised for millennia across the Middle East - and one sanctioned by the Koran. The historian Tom Holland explores its origins."

Not up on the internet yet.
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/newsreview/features/article1447369.ece
Just read the article. Well worth a read.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 08:02:11 am by Twelfth Man »
The courts, the rich, the powerful or those in authority never lie. It has been dealt with 'by the courts' nothing to see here run along.

Offline Jake

  • Fuck VAR
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,147
  • Fuck VAR
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1377 on: August 16, 2014, 11:40:31 pm »
You also insult posters  and complain about this thread but are not willing to debate the obvious fallacies in your own point of view, re The Creation is it you wont discuss this because you have no answers to Scientific Proof which blows the Creationists Arguments clean out of the water ?

He made it perfectly clear that this thread wasn't the one to debate creationism, not that there wasn't debate to be had.
I'm not vaccinated against covid and ... I don't wear masks.

Offline John C

  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 42,260
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1378 on: August 16, 2014, 11:44:16 pm »
In the Sunday Times today: Eternal Empire of the Sword - by Tom Holland

"The ghastly images posted by Isis on social media have shocked the world but to the perpetrators their act is a symbol of conquest practised for millennia across the Middle East - and one sanctioned by the Koran. The historian Tom Holland explores its origins."

Not up on the internet yet.
If its behind a paywall please don't post the full article, but a summary with the source will be fine mate.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 11:46:12 pm by John C »

Offline Twelfth Man

  • Rhianna fan. my arse! Someone fill me in. Any takers? :) We are the fabulous CFC...
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 19,012
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1379 on: August 16, 2014, 11:54:22 pm »
If its behind a paywall please don't post the full article, but a summary with the source will be fine mate.
T'is a big article and historical, so no summary (at work). Will try and find a link later.
The courts, the rich, the powerful or those in authority never lie. It has been dealt with 'by the courts' nothing to see here run along.

Offline Corkboy

  • Sworn enemy of Bottlegirl. The Boston Toilet Mangler. Grauniad of the Cidatel. Into kinky S&M with the Lash.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,382
  • Is it getting better?
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1380 on: August 17, 2014, 12:21:50 am »
He made it perfectly clear that this thread wasn't the one to debate creationism, not that there wasn't debate to be had.


In fairness, he opened that door when he quite unaccountably decided to bring up evolution.

Offline TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 94,251
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1381 on: August 17, 2014, 10:46:22 am »
 “I will instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. Strike off their heads, then.” (Quran, 8.12)

Appears that ISIS use this as one of their inspiration.

Can anyone explain how they might have misinterpreted this?  Seems quite clear to me
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline jooneyisdagod

  • Doesn't like having pussy round the house
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 19,743
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1382 on: August 17, 2014, 10:55:25 am »
“I will instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. Strike off their heads, then.” (Quran, 8.12)

Appears that ISIS use this as one of their inspiration.

Can anyone explain how they might have misinterpreted this?  Seems quite clear to me

The 'translation' will be debated. There will be claims that the hadiths are clear in that the verse is actually a particular reference to a particular group of people at a particular period of time. And therefore the Islamists are simply taking the quote out of context.

Now I actually understand and sympathise with that view. But the same case can be made for any interpretation including what we think of as being the 'correct' one.
Quote from: Dion Fanning

The chants for Kenny Dalglish that were heard again on Wednesday do not necessarily mean that the fans see him as the saviour. This is not Newcastle, longing for the return of Kevin Keegan. Simply, Dalglish represents everything Hodgson is not and, in fairness, everything Hodgson could or would not hope to be.

Offline TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 94,251
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1383 on: August 17, 2014, 11:03:20 am »
The 'translation' will be debated. There will be claims that the hadiths are clear in that the verse is actually a particular reference to a particular group of people at a particular period of time. And therefore the Islamists are simply taking the quote out of context.

Now I actually understand and sympathise with that view. But the same case can be made for any interpretation including what we think of as being the 'correct' one.
But Hadith is written several hundred years afterwards, there is no historical link to the time the Quran was written
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline jooneyisdagod

  • Doesn't like having pussy round the house
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 19,743
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1384 on: August 17, 2014, 11:04:52 am »
But Hadith is written several hundred years afterwards, there is no historical link to the time the Quran was written

Not disagreeing with you there. But from what I understand, the Quran is interpreted with the help of the hadith.
Quote from: Dion Fanning

The chants for Kenny Dalglish that were heard again on Wednesday do not necessarily mean that the fans see him as the saviour. This is not Newcastle, longing for the return of Kevin Keegan. Simply, Dalglish represents everything Hodgson is not and, in fairness, everything Hodgson could or would not hope to be.

Offline SadRed

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,219
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1385 on: August 17, 2014, 11:36:19 am »
“I will instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. Strike off their heads, then.” (Quran, 8.12)

Appears that ISIS use this as one of their inspiration.

Can anyone explain how they might have misinterpreted this?  Seems quite clear to me

If your argment is Qu'ran is telling them to do this or Quran is their source, there is no question they use it as their source. Whether its fair use is the question.

Imagine a few thousand people who are interpreting it this way out of 1.2 billion, that is 0.000001 percent of the population that is interpreting it this way. But you wish to say 99.99999999% of the people are wrong in understanding their own religion? Something to ponder over.

You clearly wish to interpret anything that is written as fact, please explain to me how you will interpret this passage

31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Now thats Bible, not the Quran.

There are hundereds of things like this. I can post it for Hindu Scriptures, Talmud, or anything else you wish to.

But I am not crazy enough to take things out of context and post them all over the place. If you really want to debate at this level and consider violence, gore, sex, racism in take out of context in all its glory, http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.htm

The debate should be about political islam, about this philosophy which really only emerged in 1950's with Syed Qutb, but I dont even see this mentioned anywhere else. They are not just beheading and killing Christians and Jews but Also Muslims. Everyone who is fighting them are muslims. Kurds are muslims, Turks are muslims, Shias are muslims. They are all muslims.




Offline vagabond

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,302
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1386 on: August 17, 2014, 11:36:33 am »
“I will instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. Strike off their heads, then.” (Quran, 8.12)

Appears that ISIS use this as one of their inspiration.

Can anyone explain how they might have misinterpreted this?  Seems quite clear to me

I believe the accepted account is that this verse is referring to the Battle of Badr alone, the first battle the early muslims had to fight against the tribe of the Quraysh, the economic super-power of Arabia at that time. God promises to aid the muslims in their fight because, well, if they had lost there would have been no more Islam. At least that's what the muslim history is and there aren't any alternate versions that have survived.
It does sound particularly distasteful without the context though.
Sometimes a man stands up during supper
and walks outdoors, and keeps on walking,
because of a church that stands somewhere in the East.
---Rilke

Offline vagabond

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,302
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1387 on: August 17, 2014, 11:38:58 am »
But Hadith is written several hundred years afterwards, there is no historical link to the time the Quran was written

The claim is that the hadith are extant utterances of the Prophet collected by his followers and his family during his lifetime: it's only the organisation and collection of the hadith that happened many hundreds of years later. Now I share your scepticism about the veracity of the hadith but for muslims they are a very important source in interpreting the Quran.
Sometimes a man stands up during supper
and walks outdoors, and keeps on walking,
because of a church that stands somewhere in the East.
---Rilke

Offline TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 94,251
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1388 on: August 17, 2014, 11:49:45 am »
If your argment is Qu'ran is telling them to do this or Quran is their source, there is no question they use it as their source. Whether its fair use is the question.

Imagine a few thousand people who are interpreting it this way out of 1.2 billion, that is 0.000001 percent of the population that is interpreting it this way. But you wish to say 99.99999999% of the people are wrong in understanding their own religion? Something to ponder over.

You clearly wish to interpret anything that is written as fact, please explain to me how you will interpret this passage

31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Now thats Bible, not the Quran.

There are hundereds of things like this. I can post it for Hindu Scriptures, Talmud, or anything else you wish to.

But I am not crazy enough to take things out of context and post them all over the place. If you really want to debate at this level and consider violence, gore, sex, racism in take out of context in all its glory, http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.htm

The debate should be about political islam, about this philosophy which really only emerged in 1950's with Syed Qutb, but I dont even see this mentioned anywhere else. They are not just beheading and killing Christians and Jews but Also Muslims. Everyone who is fighting them are muslims. Kurds are muslims, Turks are muslims, Shias are muslims. They are all muslims.




I'm not trying to claim any religion is superior to another.

But, at this moment in time, no one is using the bible as a source material to kill tens of thousands of people.

I asked a question, I didn't state a fact, I asked how this statement could be misinterpreted.  What is it's fair use.  What is the correct interpretation of this passage (genuinely).

It's a question not an accusation.

I thought the words in the Qu'ran and the bible were supposed to be "fact" anyway?



“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline SadRed

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,219
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1389 on: August 17, 2014, 11:50:21 am »
I believe the accepted account is that this verse is referring to the Battle of Badr alone, the first battle the early muslims had to fight against the tribe of the Quraysh, the economic super-power of Arabia at that time. God promises to aid the muslims in their fight because, well, if they had lost there would have been no more Islam. At least that's what the muslim history is and there aren't any alternate versions that have survived.
It does sound particularly distasteful without the context though.

The best thing for someone who is actually interested to know what that means is to go visit an Islamic center or religious studies department of a reputed university. For muslims or christians or jews or hindus or buddhist, there are bound to be thousands of different opinions about every little detail. The problem is I dont think people have an interest in that, people will only read what suits their agenda.

And for that you cannot do a thing.

Offline SadRed

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,219
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1390 on: August 17, 2014, 11:59:57 am »
I'm not trying to claim any religion is superior to another.

But, at this moment in time, no one is using the bible as a source material to kill tens of thousands of people.

I asked a question, I didn't state a fact, I asked how this statement could be misinterpreted.  What is it's fair use.  What is the correct interpretation of this passage (genuinely).

It's a question not an accusation.

I thought the words in the Qu'ran and the bible were supposed to be "fact" anyway?


No it is not supposed to be fact. It is "supposed" to be the word of God. If it was as simple as you said there would not be a need for scholars, volumes and volumes of books on tafsir, islamic jurisprudence etc.

The Quran is not arranged in a chronological order. This verse is for battle of Badr, which was a war. It was not even a command for humans, but a certain scenario where god sent angels to help the muslims in the battle. In Tafsir Ibn Kathir, one of the most respected exegisis of the Quran, following is observed.

Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said, "In the aftermath of Badr, the people used to recognize whomever the angels killed from those whom they killed, by the wounds over their necks, fingers and toes, because those parts had a mark as if they were branded by fire.''

Now the question of how real such a thing is, whether it was only to boost morale in a war or whether people believe it was a real event is not the issue at hand. Issue at hand is how easy it is to take things out of context. I also will not claim this is the only true way to see things.

Now, I am not an expert in Islam, I dont think anyone here is. If you are geuninely curious, the best thing will be to visit a local islamic center who will be able to explain to you properly.

The only thing I will say is it only makes logical sense to go with what 99.999999% of people say is the right thing. Just to say that it will be impossible to explain such things on a forum here honestly. There are 100's of such verses. If you wish to engage in a proper study, PM me and I will send you some unbiased resources.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 12:03:41 pm by SadRed »

Offline Yorkykopite

  • Misses Danny Boy with a passion. Phil's Official Biographer, dontcherknow...it's all true. Honestly.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 34,482
  • The first five yards........
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1391 on: August 17, 2014, 12:06:11 pm »

The debate should be about political islam, about this philosophy which really only emerged in 1950's with Syed Qutb, but I dont even see this mentioned anywhere else. They are not just beheading and killing Christians and Jews but Also Muslims. Everyone who is fighting them are muslims. Kurds are muslims, Turks are muslims, Shias are muslims. They are all muslims.


This was the opening post.

What's the biggest threat to world peace today? Obviously it's the extremist and reactionary ideology called Islamism. The ideology has several manifestations, Shia as well as Sunni, but these share one fatal characteristic. Its proponents are so convincecd of their own virtue and so full of hatred towards heretics (most other people in the world) that they feel entitled to attack them with machine guns, grenades, IEDs, machetes and incendiary weapons. They turn their wrath on westerners, Jews, liberals, socialists, Christians and people who 'offend' them. But most of their victims are actually Muslims. These include Muslims of the wrong sect, Muslims who don't pray hard enough, Muslims who are gay, apostates, children who go to the 'wrong' schools and - of course - women. Their hatred of women is vicious and apparently boundless.
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

Offline TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 94,251
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1392 on: August 17, 2014, 12:30:40 pm »
No it is not supposed to be fact. It is "supposed" to be the word of God. If it was as simple as you said there would not be a need for scholars, volumes and volumes of books on tafsir, islamic jurisprudence etc.

The Quran is not arranged in a chronological order. This verse is for battle of Badr, which was a war. It was not even a command for humans, but a certain scenario where god sent angels to help the muslims in the battle. In Tafsir Ibn Kathir, one of the most respected exegisis of the Quran, following is observed.

Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said, "In the aftermath of Badr, the people used to recognize whomever the angels killed from those whom they killed, by the wounds over their necks, fingers and toes, because those parts had a mark as if they were branded by fire.''

Now the question of how real such a thing is, whether it was only to boost morale in a war or whether people believe it was a real event is not the issue at hand. Issue at hand is how easy it is to take things out of context. I also will not claim this is the only true way to see things.

Now, I am not an expert in Islam, I dont think anyone here is. If you are geuninely curious, the best thing will be to visit a local islamic center who will be able to explain to you properly.

The only thing I will say is it only makes logical sense to go with what 99.999999% of people say is the right thing. Just to say that it will be impossible to explain such things on a forum here honestly. There are 100's of such verses. If you wish to engage in a proper study, PM me and I will send you some unbiased resources.

cheers, I think that actually adds to the debate.


I agree that 99% of people interpret it peacefully! but that's because they are good people.
People interpret religious texts in the way that makes sense to them.

I have the same problem with all religions, it's entirely subjective.


However, I think that more could be done by the Islamic community to promote the peaceful message above the violent interpretation of these passages.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline SadRed

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,219
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1393 on: August 17, 2014, 12:33:01 pm »
This was the opening post.


The narrative that it is muslims who are fighting these terrorists, it is muslims who are also protecting christians and yazidis - this narrative does not exist. These people who are doing good also take their inspiration of Quran.

The narrative of this thread is to prove that ISIS represents true Islam and not of the 1 Billion people who dont agree with them are misled. It is silly and absurd really.

You tell me why has no one mentioned Syed Qutb or Milestones? This ideology emerged in 1950's with him.

I suggest let their be another thread, please put in all the vile things in their about all religions - islam, christianity, judaism, hinduism, buddhism or anything else. Let their be slander, let people post articles from wikislam or answering-christianity or judaismexposed or some hate sites like that if thats what people enjoy.

Lets keep this thread about political islam, its various forms, the reasons for their strengthening and what needs to be done to stop it.

Offline SadRed

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,219
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1394 on: August 17, 2014, 12:46:31 pm »
cheers, I think that actually adds to the debate.


I agree that 99% of people interpret it peacefully! but that's because they are good people.
People interpret religious texts in the way that makes sense to them.

I have the same problem with all religions, it's entirely subjective.


However, I think that more could be done by the Islamic community to promote the peaceful message above the violent interpretation of these passages.

Look I agree with that. But their voices are being drowned. There have been hundereds of statements by muslim leaders all over the world condemning ISIS and saying this ideology is absurd and completely opposite to teaching and spirit of the religion. But who wants to listen to them?We have moderators on here who claim that muslims cannot fully oppose ISIS. It is so stupid that its not even worth debating. Its a pre-established notion that Islam is violent, Quran is plagiarized etc so the question is who wants to listen?

The simplest explaination is ISIS came out of Syrian civil war. They werent even the main faction and Al-Qaeda called them too extreme. They got a shit load of weapons when 800 of them invaded Iraq and were helped by sunni tribes because they wanted to fight Al-Maliki.

This is the real situation. This is what we should talk about. But if people are not willing to engage and want to slander, lets have a thread for slander separately please.

As for muslims, they are trying. Trust me. What this hurts is them more than no other.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 12:48:04 pm by SadRed »

Offline TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 94,251
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1395 on: August 17, 2014, 12:50:09 pm »
Look I agree with that. But their voices are being drowned. There have been hundereds of statements by muslim leaders all over the world condemning ISIS and saying this ideology is absurd and completely opposite to teaching and spirit of the religion. But who wants to listen to them?We have moderators on here who claim that muslims cannot fully oppose ISIS. It is so stupid that its not even worth debating. Its a pre-established notion that Islam is violent, Quran is plagiarized etc so the question is who wants to listen?

The simplest explaination is ISIS came out of Syrian civil war. They werent even the main faction and Al-Qaeda called them too extreme. They got a shit load of weapons when 800 of them invaded Iraq and were helped by sunni tribes because they wanted to fight Al-Maliki.

This is the real situation. This is what we should talk about. But if people are not willing to engage and want to slander, lets have a thread for slander separately please.

As for muslims, they are trying. Trust me. What this hurts is them more than no other.
I think this is where Christianity has a big advantage, they have the pope and the leader of the Anglican Church who set a strong lead for the rest of Christianity (even other branches).
People follow that lead.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline SadRed

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,219
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1396 on: August 17, 2014, 12:55:58 pm »
What's the biggest threat to world peace today? Obviously it's the extremist and reactionary ideology called Islamism. The ideology has several manifestations, Shia as well as Sunni, but these share one fatal characteristic. Its proponents are so convincecd of their own virtue and so full of hatred towards heretics (most other people in the world) that they feel entitled to attack them with machine guns, grenades, IEDs, machetes and incendiary weapons. They turn their wrath on westerners, Jews, liberals, socialists, Christians and people who 'offend' them. But most of their victims are actually Muslims. These include Muslims of the wrong sect, Muslims who don't pray hard enough, Muslims who are gay, apostates, children who go to the 'wrong' schools and - of course - women. Their hatred of women is vicious and apparently boundless.


Islamism is a confusing term, it is applied very broadly to a wide range of groups to parties like Ennahada in Tunisia which are quite moderate, to AKP which is more leaning towards Islam but is still secular in its structure, to Taliban, Al Qaeda and ISIS.

That represents that you talk about or refer to as Islamism in this paragraph is actually an ideology that began in 1950's with Syed Qutb also known as Qutbism. Every terrorist leader traces the source of their ideology to Syed Qutb. The people who you talk about dont just hate jews, christians, yazidis, shias but all muslims who do not accept them. For them everyone else is an infidel. That is why they are also called Takfiris.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takfiri

They are hated more in the Islamic world than anywhere else.

Offline SadRed

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,219
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1397 on: August 17, 2014, 01:02:46 pm »
I think this is where Christianity has a big advantage, they have the pope and the leader of the Anglican Church who set a strong lead for the rest of Christianity (even other branches).
People follow that lead.

I agree. There are certain muslim communities who still have their leader like Aga Khan, who are people who will have the ultimate say. Even for shias, whatever people;s views, Ayatollah Khomeini's views will be final.

Following the collapse of Ottoman empire and dissolving the caliphate, sunni islam has no leader, no authority. Its a free for all. ISIL was no differnt for hundereds of groups operating in Syria. Its almost a brilliant marketing strategy that they claim themselves to be the 'Islamic State'. Thats why the changed the name from Islamic State of Iraq and Syria to just Islamic state. They wanted more global attention and appeal.

An overwhelming majority of muslims consider their actions abhorrent, disgraceful and horrendous, more so because it is being carried out in the name of their religion.

Offline Twelfth Man

  • Rhianna fan. my arse! Someone fill me in. Any takers? :) We are the fabulous CFC...
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 19,012
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1398 on: August 17, 2014, 01:21:11 pm »
"There are muslim victims of other extremist religious ideologies too you know - there have been innumerable events of hindu extremism against muslims where thousands of innocents have lost their lives, Buddhist extremism in Sri Lanka and Myanmmar where they have been slaughtered. Muslims specifically in Myanmar have a limit of 2 kids, which does not apply to anyone else, only if you are muslim. There has been ethnic cleansing in central african republic, where population of muslims in Bangui has dropped from 130,000 to less than 1,000 in a matter of a couple of months and French troops have had to escort them out to protect them from the Christian militias. And last but not the least, of jewish extremists in Palestine that make claims of their god given right to live in Israel, wishing to drive the arabs into the sea and where national newspapers carry articles that say 'When Genocide is Allowed'. This is not to say the muslims are covered in glory, they too are responsible for reprehnsible crimes. But it will be nice to see you condemn all this too."

I do condemn all of them. But you could use the argument I see on here sometimes, that is that, the people committing these crimes are not Hindus, Buddhists etc., because the vast majority of people who believe in those faiths don't support the slaughter of innocent people, or another line of argument, that there is nothing in the teachings of the Hindu or Buddhist scriptures calling for violence and murder of innocents, hence they are not part of the faith but 'criminals, 'psychopaths, 'terrorists' outside the tradition. I personally, would not do that, they are part of their traditions, they certainly claim to be, and it is the job of the majority in both faiths to challenge them and contest their ideologies. In India sadly the c*nt and his goons is now Prime Minister.
The courts, the rich, the powerful or those in authority never lie. It has been dealt with 'by the courts' nothing to see here run along.

Offline SadRed

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,219
Re: Islamism
« Reply #1399 on: August 17, 2014, 02:47:39 pm »
"There are muslim victims of other extremist religious ideologies too you know - there have been innumerable events of hindu extremism against muslims where thousands of innocents have lost their lives, Buddhist extremism in Sri Lanka and Myanmmar where they have been slaughtered. Muslims specifically in Myanmar have a limit of 2 kids, which does not apply to anyone else, only if you are muslim. There has been ethnic cleansing in central african republic, where population of muslims in Bangui has dropped from 130,000 to less than 1,000 in a matter of a couple of months and French troops have had to escort them out to protect them from the Christian militias. And last but not the least, of jewish extremists in Palestine that make claims of their god given right to live in Israel, wishing to drive the arabs into the sea and where national newspapers carry articles that say 'When Genocide is Allowed'. This is not to say the muslims are covered in glory, they too are responsible for reprehnsible crimes. But it will be nice to see you condemn all this too."

I do condemn all of them. But you could use the argument I see on here sometimes, that is that, the people committing these crimes are not Hindus, Buddhists etc., because the vast majority of people who believe in those faiths don't support the slaughter of innocent people

Are you suggesting that vast majority of Muslims support the slaughter of innocent people? Can you not see that these terrorists have killed more muslims than others? You will be able to find crimes committed by Hindus and Buddhists which are horrendous, especially during riots. I will accept the scale is far far less, but number of people killed 500 or 5000 shouldnt be what we judge such horrors by.

Quote
, or another line of argument, that there is nothing in the teachings of the Hindu or Buddhist scriptures calling for violence and murder of innocents, hence they are not part of the faith but 'criminals, 'psychopaths, 'terrorists' outside the tradition. I personally, would not do that, they are part of their traditions, they certainly claim to be, and it is the job of the majority in both faiths to challenge them and contest their ideologies. In India sadly the c*nt and his goons is now Prime Minister.

I respect you for being honest there. A muslim moderate will do the same - for him there is nothing that calls for murder of innocents. No sane man in this world will advocate for that. And all of these sane people abide by the teachings of their religion. But there will be extremists in every case, and its across the spectrum. You know about Hindutva, people can look up Buddhist extremists, look up Kings Torah published by some crazy fanatical rabbi that justifies killing of children. The problem is much exggaerated for muslims, no question, but also understand the politics of the region. It exaggerates it a lot. If you look at Malaysia, its far from a conflict zone, the likelihood for ISIS emerging from Malaysia is minimal.

The point this - sane normal people, which account for 99.999% of the people will not accept mindless barbaric violence. All of them will say - their religion does not allow for this and people who do this are misinformed, crazy, angry, full of hate, goons or the reasons may be political struggle.



So the argument is this - Does Islam/Christianity/Judaism/Hinduism/Buddhism allow for violence against innocents? The answer from an overwhelming majority of poeple who follow these religions is NO.

The second part of this - What about the texts, passages of violence etc especially for Islam?  The answer is they are quoted out of context, and people who use them do not understand what they mean. This is the opinion of 99.99999% of muslims, else they would be out killing everyone.

People cannot digest this, they think there must be something in the religion itself. The answer for that is look up their own scriptures. Look at the Old Testament, Talmud, Mahabharat or another book you can find. There are hundereds of resources online which will tell you out of context, full of hate and misrepresetned paragraphs in these books. I dont want to post them.

Then the argument is if such things also occur in other books, why is it specific to Islam?
The answer is simple - why do these groups emerge from conflict zones? There is your answer. For people who wish to really understand.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 02:49:15 pm by SadRed »