Topic: Labour Thread

[Byrnee]

Surely we can do it. Opinions vary but we surely need a place to discuss the party that could actually be in power in 2 years and the important moves they are making now.

Starting discussion with Sam Tarry; https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/11/sam-tarry-calls-for-vote-audit-deselection-mp-jas-athwal

This seems such a mess for multiple reasons but it's highly concerning to have people on the left now echoing Trump's call for election audits when they lose. Especially when there is a clear winner, and a returning popular candidate who was only deselected due to some nefarious/ unfortunately timed allegations.

[TepidT2O]

Err no we can’t!

[Elmo!]

Starting off a new Labour thread with a complain about the behaviour of the left...

[WhereAngelsPlay]

I want Labour to promise to get to the bottom of how an app that never worked cost us tens of billions.

[TepidT2O]

I want Labour to promise to get to the bottom of how an app that never worked cost us tens of billions.

There was nothing wrong with Flappy bird

[Dr. Beaker]

There was nothing wrong with Flappy bird

So is that what they call Dodo nowadays. I don't even want to know why.

[ianburns252]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/11/keir-starmer-chief-of-staff-labour-election-restructuring

Most interesting quote in the article being that they can't be "complacent or cautious".

As it states in there it was often an accusation aimed at Starmer and it seems like he is owning that a bit and will come out of it in a more aggressive manner which will hopefully help turn some heads.

[Wabaloolah]

Surely we can do it. Opinions vary but we surely need a place to discuss the party that could actually be in power in 2 years and the important moves they are making now.

Starting discussion with Sam Tarry; https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/11/sam-tarry-calls-for-vote-audit-deselection-mp-jas-athwal

This seems such a mess for multiple reasons but it's highly concerning to have people on the left now echoing Trump's call for election audits when they lose. Especially when there is a clear winner, and a returning popular candidate who was only deselected due to some nefarious/ unfortunately timed allegations.

not a good place to start if you want to keep the thread open

[Byrnee]

Starting off a new Labour thread with a complain about the behaviour of the left...

Well except I'm including every Labour supporter as the left because we are. Centre left or far left. All left. People can claim red Tories or nonsense like that but the policy beliefs don't back it up.

I'm saying that the right are questioning election results and it's causing problems all over the world I don't think people on the left should also be promoting conspiracy theories and distrust of elections in general.

[KillieRed]

I want Labour to promise to get to the bottom of how an app that never worked cost us tens of billions.

Yep, and the loans to friends and families. All done under the cover of helping the nation when it was at it`s lowest ebb for decades. I would ask why this hasn`t become a massive scandal and on the front pages all the time, but you just need to look at the front pages to see what their owners and editors are really scared of.

[thaddeus]

I think the shadow cabinet is generally pretty good, certainly better than the serving cabinet.  Raynor as Prescott to Starmer's Blair is tried and tested.

What we've yet to see is how they get on with proper electioneering.  Until now they've stepped very carefully and done a good job of not interrupting the Tories as they opened fire on themselves.  The Tories won't give up power easily and have enough loyal drones still to parrot whatever slogan they come up with across all media in the weeks leading up to the election.  Labour need to be ready to take the fight to them.

I liked the detail of the Green New Deal - even if the name is a bit Yoda-ish - but I'd like them to be a lot stronger on their vision for public services.  I think there's a risk that we end up with an economic policy not dissimilar to Osborne's but our public services need repairing not running down further.  I want Labour to commit to funding services better and explain how they're going to do that.  If that means higher taxes - which it surely must - then they need to say so, justify why and sell the benefits of doing so.

Some boldness on what a fiasco Brexit is would be very welcome but I'm certainly not holding my breath on that.

I'm not interested in all the silly infighting as it's a pointless distraction.  If wings of the party don't feel they're represented then the Tories have given them the model - create a group, give yourselves a grandiose title and work on shifting the policies to suit your agenda.  Silly stunts and playing to the galleries from any wing of the party is just ammunition for the Tories.

[filopastry]

I think that is going to be one of Labour's biggest challenges assuming they do win power at the next election, the scope of the work that needs to be done is likely to need a tax rises for more than just "the Rich"

[Schmidt]

I like Starmer.

There are a lot of media sources waiting for something to hammer him with, anything. Eat a sandwich wrong and you'll never hear the end of it. I get that people want to hear what he stands for, but when anything he says has the potential to be weaponised and used to trick the gammons into thinking he's out to get them, maybe the best approach is to stick to the basics and leave the Tories to drown in controversy.

Labour could definitely improve when it comes to their manifesto, half of the time I have little to no idea what they actually want to do. But even then, I don't think they need to have a stance on everything; Brexit for example, I'm not sure there's anything to be gained by having an opinion there, regardless of what that opinion is.

[Fromola]

I'm positive about the prospect of a Labour government  in 2024 but the sooner PR comes in so Labour can split between a New Labour type party and a socialist/workers party the better. The Corbynist/Blairite type split is just too big and incompatible.

[filopastry]

I'm positive about the prospect of a Labour government  in 2024 but the sooner PR comes in so Labour can split between a New Labour type party and a socialist/workers party the better. The Corbynist/Blairite type split is just too big and incompatible.

I think there would be an issue there of trying to meld those 2 groups into a coalition in govt though, if you look at maybe needing to meld together the LDs New Lab, Corbyn Left and Greens where do you find the common ground to actually get a policy agenda that govt could deliver.

It might make CLP meetings a bit less unpleasant though

[Lusty]

I think there would be an issue there of trying to meld those 2 groups into a coalition in govt though, if you look at maybe needing to meld together the LDs New Lab, Corbyn Left and Greens where do you find the common ground to actually get a policy agenda that govt could deliver.

It might make CLP meetings a bit less unpleasant though

I said in the other thread that I don't think we should take the potential coalitions for granted.  If Labour splits into Blairites and Corbynites (for want of some better terms) and the Tories split into One Nation and UKIP, I think I think you could see all sorts of coalitions.  Everyone is assuming it would split down the left/right lines, but you could easily a Centrist coalition emerging between One Nation and Blairites, and if Brexit came back again I think you would likely see a horseshoe coalition of UKIP and some sort of Lexit faction.

I also think the Lib Dems would cease to exist.

[filopastry]

I said in the other thread that I don't think we should take the potential coalitions for granted.  If Labour splits into Blairites and Corbynites (for want of some better terms) and the Tories split into One Nation and UKIP, I think I think you could see all sorts of coalitions.  Everyone is assuming it would split down the left/right lines, but you could easily a Centrist coalition emerging between One Nation and Blairites, and if Brexit came back again I think you would likely see a horseshoe coalition of UKIP and some sort of Lexit faction.

I also think the Lib Dems would cease to exist.

I wouldn't argue with that at all.

Probably would be driven to an extent by how open to negotiation people were, if the Corbynites were flexible, they could deliver on some of their priorities

[oldfordie]

I think that is going to be one of Labour's biggest challenges assuming they do win power at the next election, the scope of the work that needs to be done is likely to need a tax rises for more than just "the Rich"

Yep. People really need to give them a break, they will hopefully win the next election but they will take over a country in worse state than it was in 97, 2 more years of Tory fanatics trying to tear up everything we all should value.
Labour will not be able to make great change for the good straight away, they can only set the country on the right track.
They will be in a no win position if the public refuse to accept realty.
If they borrow which they will have too then they will be attacked.
If they raise taxes they will be attacked.
If they cut public spending, they will be attacked
What other options do they have.? they will not cut services, care etc because a lot of these things will be in a horrific state when they take over.
They will have to borrow for so many things, energy for one.
They will have to raise taxes but the lower paid will not be affected so I just hope they don't fall for the bullshit.
We will struggle to get back to where we were in 2010.

[TSC]

Yep. People really need to give them a break, they will hopefully win the next election but they will take over a country in worse state than it was in 97, 2 more years of Tory fanatics trying to tear up everything we all should value.
Labour will not be able to make great change for the good straight away, they can only set the country on the right track.
They will be in a no win position if the public refuse to accept realty.
If they borrow which they will have too then they will be attacked.
If they raise taxes they will be attacked.
If they cut public spending, they will be attacked
What other options do they have.? they will not cut services, care etc because a lot of these things will be in a horrific state when they take over.
They will have to borrow for so many things, energy for one.
They will have to raise taxes but the lower paid will not be affected so I just hope they don't fall for the bullshit.
We will struggle to get back to where we were in 2010.

Assuming 1. They are elected and 2. The economic landscape is at least as bad as it is now, then Labour need to shout about the mess they’re inheriting following c.15 years of Tory governments.  Get the message out early (ie from here until election) and hammer it home.  Make the tories own their own mess.

[Dr. Beaker]

But they will just blame Covid, and the public would probably buy that so the wasted/gifted money should be front and centre.

[oldfordie]

Assuming 1. They are elected and 2. The economic landscape is at least as bad as it is now, then Labour need to shout about the mess they’re inheriting following c.15 years of Tory governments.  Get the message out early (ie from here until election) and hammer it home.  Make the tories own their own mess.

Yeah, they should make the Torys own the mess but it's going to be hard to get over the right message. voters want to hear glorious new future. best in the world at everything when the country is on it's knees. Labour will have to make promises that voters want to hear but it will take time.

[Nobby Reserve]

I think that is going to be one of Labour's biggest challenges assuming they do win power at the next election, the scope of the work that needs to be done is likely to need a tax rises for more than just "the Rich"

Like I've said before, take control of all the British Overseas Territories, freeze all assets held in them, then apply a windfall tax of 50% of all assets over, say, Ł10m

Would bring in Łtens/hundreds of billions

 

[Fromola]

I said in the other thread that I don't think we should take the potential coalitions for granted.  If Labour splits into Blairites and Corbynites (for want of some better terms) and the Tories split into One Nation and UKIP, I think I think you could see all sorts of coalitions.  Everyone is assuming it would split down the left/right lines, but you could easily a Centrist coalition emerging between One Nation and Blairites, and if Brexit came back again I think you would likely see a horseshoe coalition of UKIP and some sort of Lexit faction.

I also think the Lib Dems would cease to exist.

Blairites are much more in tune with One Nation Tories than they are with Corbynites or Socialists, even if they'd have differences, but the differences to the Corbynites is night and day and they can't coexist. Change UK was ultimately a botched attempt to merge the two (impossible anyway with FPTP). Blair often gave political advice to Cameron and has liaised a lot with the likes of Rory Stewart.

If you look at it from Corbyn or Blair prism it's not just that though. Ed Milliband was more in between the two and I think Starmer is as well, but you won't know until he's in power. He does seem very pragmatic but there's not much room for the left in his cabinet. Therefore a New Labour type party led by someone like Ed Milliband or perhaps Andy Burnham would be more in tune with a left wing Labour Party (post-split) in terms of a coalition. It depends on the leader.

The left have been so unrepresented in power for a long time though. It's usually the Tories in government and when Labour have got in it's not been the left of the party and the left within Labour mostly relegated to the back benches and a lack of fuss made because people are so glad to get the Tories out for a change.

With PR if Labour's vote is split down the middle between those 2 factions then it's a gamechanger for the left to have that somewhere 15-25% vote share (and similar for a New Labour). The Tories would also split in two and would basically be UKIP and One Nation Conservatives.

If nothing else it stops a hard-right majority in power and gives the left a voice.

[Red Beret]

Maybe it's just me, but the impression I have is that the current Labour party is still to the left of Blair's Labour, but subtlety so. I think they're trying not to spook the centre or right leaning voters too much, but really the Tories have given them such an open goal that even Charlie Adam couldn't miss it. 

[Fromola]

Maybe it's just me, but the impression I have is that the current Labour party is still to the left of Blair's Labour, but subtlety so. I think they're trying not to spook the centre or right leaning voters too much, but really the Tories have given them such an open goal that even Charlie Adam couldn't miss it.

Starmer is shrewd but it's unclear what his politics actually are. He's been able to take a backseat while the Tories implode and not give them any encouragement.

Corbyn ultimately may be too far left for the country but many of his policies were popular.

[oldfordie]

Starmer is shrewd but it's unclear what his politics actually are. He's been able to take a backseat while the Tories implode and not give them any encouragement.

Corbyn ultimately may be too far left for the country but many of his policies were popular.

Your unsure of Starmers/Labours policys, nobody knows what Starmer stands for?
Do you think he may carry on bringing in cuts across the board or bring in policys to help 10s millions in all areas,  who decides if he is not a proper socialist, to be honest I don't take much notice of the Socialist tag, ive found it's used too much to attack and defend rather than judging them on what they want to achieve.
 If socialism means improving the following things dramatically then Starmers Labour are the socialists. 
Repair the NHS. cut waiting lists, Hospitals. doctors, care workers.
More funding for services, education, welfare, cut poverty. that's enough for me.

[Red Beret]

I wonder, how will the Tories and their rags attack Starmer for raising taxes if he becomes PM? They surely won't be able to use the "harming growth" angle, or tax-and-spend, as the economy will still be on it's knees by the time the next election rolls around.

[Father Ted]

You're assuming rightwing newspapers and the Tories have any kind of coherence or logic beyond 'what's expedient today?'

They make their own reality, they don't live in the one most people do. They can and will attack Labour and they can and will blame Labour for the disaster they themselves left behind.

[Red Beret]

You're assuming rightwing newspapers and the Tories have any kind of coherence or logic beyond 'what's expedient today?'

They make their own reality, they don't live in the one most people do. They can and will attack Labour and they can and will blame Labour for the disaster they themselves left behind.

I never said their strategy would make sense. I said I was wondering what they will do and how they will justify it.

I can't see Labour maintaining such a lead right up to an election, but watching the rags trying to "sell" five more years of Tory rule to a populace mired in a cost of living crisis and dealing with a second round of even more severe austerity is going to be intriguing - in a somewhat macabre way.

I'm guessing their line will be "don't allow Labour to put the fledgling recovery at risk!"

[Dr. Beaker]

The mortgage defaults will make for interesting opinion polls. A whole world of pain still to come for the Tories.

[Fromola]

Your unsure of Starmers/Labours policys, nobody knows what Starmer stands for?
Do you think he may carry on bringing in cuts across the board or bring in policys to help 10s millions in all areas,  who decides if he is not a proper socialist, to be honest I don't take much notice of the Socialist tag, ive found it's used too much to attack and defend rather than judging them on what they want to achieve.
 If socialism means improving the following things dramatically then Starmers Labour are the socialists. 
Repair the NHS. cut waiting lists, Hospitals. doctors, care workers.
More funding for services, education, welfare, cut poverty. that's enough for me.

I'm not sure what his politics are on various things. Not saying it as a bad thing. We will see if and when he becomes PM.

[Commie Bobbie]

Brave move getting this thread about the party back up and running but fuck me, if we can't have a sensible and coherent thread when the party is on average 30% ahead in the polls and that pile of shite is committing economic hari-kiri then when can we.

On Starmer - I continually hear that he's boring.

Boring is better than corrupt.

[TepidT2O]

Brave move getting this thread about the party back up and running but fuck me, if we can't have a sensible and coherent thread when the party is on average 30% ahead in the polls and that pile of shite is committing economic hari-kiri then when can we.

You may have answered your own question there!

[Commie Bobbie]

You may have answered your own question there!

I said at the start of the year that we on the Left had to become pragmatic and realistic - never did I think that we would be in this situation.

GB Energy alone, is pushing me closer to resuming my Labour membership. Its outside the box - its going to go to a sovereign wealth fund to benefit the British people. Absolutely perfect policy.

[shy_talk]

I said at the start of the year that we on the Left had to become pragmatic and realistic - never did I think that we would be in this situation.

GB Energy alone, is pushing me closer to resuming my Labour membership. Its outside the box - its going to go to a sovereign wealth fund to benefit the British people. Absolutely perfect policy.

"we will enshrine this in law to make it unsellable, there is no way any future government, Tory or otherwise will be able to profiteer by selling this public owned asset to their pals or anyone else under the guise of cost cutting and or benefit of the country, we have seen the whole sale nature of their policies and performance and it has left the UK citizen poorer, working harder for less and further harmed than ever before" - "the future starts now, 'no' to the sell everything nature of those 100 times insulated from the harm of said sales" etc.

I despise Blair and his legacy of harm, and have never voted Labour (or Tory for that matter) since, but this fiasco has to end and end right soon.

[Black Bull Nova]

Rachel Reeves was good when she took on both the Chancellor and the PM at the same time a couple of weeks ago, only just caught up on it

[bigbonedrawky]

Err no we can’t!

You know the sh*tstorm that's coming dont you Tepid .

[TepidT2O]

You know the sh*tstorm that's coming dont you Tepid .

I do… I mean we all disagree so much on things, and at the end of the day we’re disagreeing with people we actually really like …

Mostly it’s idealists vs pragmatists ….

In reality I guess we need both to tango.

[Wabaloolah]

"we will enshrine this in law to make it unsellable, there is no way any future government, Tory or otherwise will be able to profiteer by selling this public owned asset to their pals or anyone else under the guise of cost cutting and or benefit of the country, we have seen the whole sale nature of their policies and performance and it has left the UK citizen poorer, working harder for less and further harmed than ever before" - "the future starts now, 'no' to the sell everything nature of those 100 times insulated from the harm of said sales" etc.

I despise Blair and his legacy of harm, and have never voted Labour (or Tory for that matter) since, but this fiasco has to end and end right soon.

his legacy of harm? Please explain

[Byrnee]

I for one am absolutely delighted that Starmer and Labour seem to be ready and willing to talk about all of Labours achievements and the country as they left in 2010, look at the NHS, education, policing over the last 12 years - an absolute shitshow. No government is perfect and Labour made mistakes, but it is always worth bearing in mind the mistakes they made were all supported by the opposition. Had the Tories been in power we know for a fact they would have supported more deregulation of the stock market meaning the crash would have been worse. They were fully on board for Iraq, as would any government have been given the available information. But the Tories would not have been involved in establishing the minimum wage, sure-start, academies, and more (I can't find the original link but this I think covers it) -

https://www.shrewsburylabour.org.uk/labours-top-50-achievements/

You cannot let perfect be the enemy of good and Labour were very good for this country. Compared to now, they were fucking miraculous.