Author Topic: India - deteriorating?  (Read 61853 times)

Offline Bullet500

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India - deteriorating?
« on: June 13, 2022, 05:33:35 pm »
Noticed that we don't have a thread on India.

Looks like Hindu majoritarianism has finally taken over most of the country.

I wonder whether the country has crossed the point of no return. Sure, there were problems earlier but there was always some social progress.

Also not helped by the fact that the supposed opposition party was long reduced to one family hegemony.

Offline RainbowFlick

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2022, 06:45:52 pm »
It's been like this for quite some time. Hindutva is rotting peoples' minds and if I'm honest a lot of western Hindu families and organisations seem to turn a blind eye to it (I say this as someone that was raised Hindu).
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Offline Bullet500

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2022, 07:43:18 pm »
It's been like this for quite some time. Hindutva is rotting peoples' minds and if I'm honest a lot of western Hindu families and organisations seem to turn a blind eye to it (I say this as someone that was raised Hindu).
From what I have noticed, most think Modi is great and India is doing great. I feel a lot of Indian diaspora in the west = just conservatives masquerading as liberals. All in favour of diversity and minority rights in the country they move to, but simply want minorities and the disadvantaged to be "shown their place" back in India.

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2022, 08:10:09 pm »
I used to be amazed at how right wing Indians were when I was younger as I had a number of friends from that community (usually their parents were right wing, not them). However that illustrated to me how diverse different cultures are in all sorts of areas.

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2022, 09:07:49 pm »
It isn't just the Hindu 'nationalism'; Modi and his government are economically hard-right, too.

The result is that wealth inequality - already at immoral and obscene levels - has worsened.

https://www.downtoearth.org.in/news/economy/world-s-most-extreme-inequality-increase-in-india-80566

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2022, 09:25:36 pm »
It’s the oldest trick in the book. Win power, start weakening the free media, the judiciary, the opposition, rob the people blind to enrich your backers while blaming the ‘them’ (Muslims in this case) for everything that’s wrong, and assure the people that despite their miserable conditions they are better then the rest.
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Offline west_london_red

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2022, 09:34:04 pm »
And while I’m at it, it’s incredibly disappointing why this story that I have followed closely (Jagtar is from the same village as my grandmother) has got hardly any coverage while Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe who was in a similar situation at the same time received regular prime time coverage

https://www.thenational.scot/news/20199788.liz-truss-urged-help-jagtar-singh-johal-meeting-snp-mp/
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Offline RainbowFlick

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2022, 10:59:11 pm »
I used to be amazed at how right wing Indians were when I was younger as I had a number of friends from that community (usually their parents were right wing, not them). However that illustrated to me how diverse different cultures are in all sorts of areas.

any community that is religious is going to lean towards conservativism really (and often pretty hard-line conservative), which always baffles me because objectively religion should surely want you to be left-leaning to some sort of degree of socialism.

i'd say the majority of my extended family (in England) are right or centre-right, even if they pretend to be liberal. colourism, anti-blackness and general feelings of being the 'model' minority is pretty deeply engrained in the community, on top of the religious conservatism most of us grew up with. thankfully the younger generations are better but even my older cousins who are in the top-end of millennials have some pretty...nasty... views. it all then leads to general apathy and lack of concern of what is happening in India to marginalised communities.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2022, 11:03:03 pm by RainbowFlick »
YNWA.

Online thaddeus

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2022, 10:05:56 am »
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-60783874

Modi has picked sides and, unfortunately for the West, he's thrown in with Russia and China.  The BRIC countries are a genuine threat to world security.

Offline Indomitable_Carp

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2022, 11:26:40 am »
Just to throw in with the political side of things, but India is suffering awfully from the climate crisis

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/14/india-takes-tough-stand-at-climate-talks-as-delhi-endures-brutal-heatwave

Delhi has already recorded over 25 days since summer began (April/May/June) where the temperature has reached over 42C. It keeps going like this, and one of the biggest cities in the world will be literally unlivable in a couple of decades (if it isn´t already).

That has woken the Indian government up to come in hard on climate negotiations - to demand the rich world pay its share of the costs of recovery. This is necessary, and ultimately inevitable if we are to deal with the crisis.

Nevertheless, that hasn´t stopped India from setting a goal of 2070 for reaching carbon neutrality, instead of 2050 - with coal remaining a particular issue.

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2022, 12:21:01 pm »
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-60783874

Modi has picked sides and, unfortunately for the West, he's thrown in with Russia and China.  The BRIC countries are a genuine threat to world security.

I wouldn’t read it as that. India hasn’t picked a side and it won’t pick a side, it will play each side off against the other and do what’s in its self interest.
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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2022, 12:38:54 pm »
Just to throw in with the political side of things, but India is suffering awfully from the climate crisis

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/14/india-takes-tough-stand-at-climate-talks-as-delhi-endures-brutal-heatwave

Delhi has already recorded over 25 days since summer began (April/May/June) where the temperature has reached over 42C. It keeps going like this, and one of the biggest cities in the world will be literally unlivable in a couple of decades (if it isn´t already).

That has woken the Indian government up to come in hard on climate negotiations - to demand the rich world pay its share of the costs of recovery. This is necessary, and ultimately inevitable if we are to deal with the crisis.

Nevertheless, that hasn´t stopped India from setting a goal of 2070 for reaching carbon neutrality, instead of 2050 - with coal remaining a particular issue.


I don't disagree. But any assistance MUST be in tandem with at least a freezing of GHG emissions in these countries, then beginning a sustained reduction. If that harms industrialisation, then that's how it has to be; the world cannot sustain every populous country becoming industrialised and pumping out ever-increasing amounts of GHG's.
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Offline BarryCrocker

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2022, 01:08:16 pm »
Just to throw in with the political side of things, but India is suffering awfully from the climate crisis

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/14/india-takes-tough-stand-at-climate-talks-as-delhi-endures-brutal-heatwave

Delhi has already recorded over 25 days since summer began (April/May/June) where the temperature has reached over 42C. It keeps going like this, and one of the biggest cities in the world will be literally unlivable in a couple of decades (if it isn´t already).

That has woken the Indian government up to come in hard on climate negotiations - to demand the rich world pay its share of the costs of recovery. This is necessary, and ultimately inevitable if we are to deal with the crisis.

Nevertheless, that hasn´t stopped India from setting a goal of 2070 for reaching carbon neutrality, instead of 2050 - with coal remaining a particular issue.

Top 10 richest Indians are worth about $350-400m so its not like they're a 3rd world country.

It's the worlds 2nd largest producer of steel and it's carbon output is on a massive incline. They've gone from 111m tonnes in 1989 to 670m tonnes in 2020.
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Offline Indomitable_Carp

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2022, 02:20:02 pm »

I don't disagree. But any assistance MUST be in tandem with at least a freezing of GHG emissions in these countries, then beginning a sustained reduction. If that harms industrialisation, then that's how it has to be; the world cannot sustain every populous country becoming industrialised and pumping out ever-increasing amounts of GHG's.

Definitely. Which is why I mentioned Modi´s refusal to sign up to more ambitious climate goals, with dependence on coal likely to last in the 2040s and them currently generating 69% of their electricity needs through coal.

I understand from the perspective of a developing nation looking at the already developed West, telling them what to do and how to develop might stick in the craw. But it is also clear the rest of the world can not and must not industrialise in the same manner we did - because that is why we are here today. But it is also clear as day that, consequently, the developed world needs to assist in these alternative pathways of development as well as deal with the unintended climactic consequences of our own development, up to and including massive financial and economic assistance.

Top 10 richest Indians are worth about $350-400m so its not like they're a 3rd world country.

It's the worlds 2nd largest producer of steel and it's carbon output is on a massive incline. They've gone from 111m tonnes in 1989 to 670m tonnes in 2020.

I assume you mean $350-400 billion, not million, in this instance. But go to India and hundreds of millions of people certainly do live in 3rd world conditions. But even if the wealth of India´s mega-rich was to get divvied out, it still wouldn´t address their issues. The country is geographically massive, and contains 1.2 billion people, many of whom still live in dire poverty and like everyone else want and need a way out. But not only that, these same people are locked into living with some of the worst effects of climate change, to which they have done very little to contribute. The methods we used to get our own populations out of the state of dire poverty and into our current state of grossly wasteful consumerism did far more to contribute to that. So India´s poor (and the rest of the developed worlds poor in areas of climate degradation) are suffering the double whammy of grinding poverty and the climactic knock on effects of the rich worlds development, while being denied those same means of development due to the necessity of dealing with the climate crisis.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2022, 02:24:55 pm by Indomitable_Carp »

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2022, 02:27:31 pm »
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-60783874

Modi has picked sides and, unfortunately for the West, he's thrown in with Russia and China.  The BRIC countries are a genuine threat to world security.

 :lmao :lmao

India "throwing in with China" is a preposterous statement to make, considering India and China are engaged in multiple border disputes and China is the biggest ally of India's worst enemy, Pakistan.

Russia and India go way back, but India is never going to align with China, ever.

India will do what is in it's best interests.
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Online ScouserAtHeart

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2022, 02:31:06 pm »
Elections 2 years away so plenty of time left but there's absolutely no national alternative to Modi as it stands
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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2022, 03:09:23 pm »
:lmao :lmao

India "throwing in with China" is a preposterous statement to make, considering India and China are engaged in multiple border disputes and China is the biggest ally of India's worst enemy, Pakistan.

Russia and India go way back, but India is never going to align with China, ever.

India will do what is in it's best interests.
Very fair points  ;D.  Retracted your honour.

Self-preservation Society writ large (not that the UK can pass any judgments in that respect).  In this instance though what is in India's best interests is in direct conflict with "the west" and, arguably, global stability.  If the US and Europe hold firm with their sanctions then it's going to create more and more opportunities for nations like India and China to benefit.  It undoubtedly undermines those sanctions when Russia can export elsewhere instead - although those other nations will be paying a considerably lower price than Germany, for example, would have paid previously so at least Russia's income will be reduced.

Offline Bullet500

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2022, 05:13:49 pm »
In this instance though what is in India's best interests is in direct conflict with "the west" and, arguably, global stability.
The west isn't really fighting the war in Ukraine on ground. :)

Fuel inflation hits poor Indians harder than it hits the developed west.

Offline Dancingtillnirvana

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2022, 09:13:45 pm »
Is India deteriorating? The answer is complex and indefinite as of now. I believe India has improved in a lot of ways which I will explain and it is deteriorating in some ways as well.

Why is India improving?

The search for truth - One of the fundamental building blocks of a nation is culture. Indias culture or history goes back 5000-7000 years (oldest or second oldest civilization in the world), the backbone of this culture has always been Dharmic faiths -Hinduism and it's offshoots (Sikkhism, Jainsim etc) and Buddhism.

The attempt to redefine India as a purely nation-state beginning from 1947 was a completely botched one for many reasons the fundamental being that it declared India as a secular state bringing all religions under new laws whilst providing an exception for Islam and Islam alone. How can any state call itself secular if this is the case? Absurd

The second mistake was Indias ruling class attempted to re-write Indias history to paint the overall interaction between Hinduism and Islam as benign and one that was a net positive for the sub-continent. In order to do this, they painted Hindu-Muslim co-operation as integral to overthrowing British imperialism.

As 75 years have unfolded though it has become clear that history in the sub-continent cannot be re-written so easily and the glaring inconcistencies provided the perfect opening for the Hindutva movement to emerge from the political shadows. As people have gone in search for the truth the old explanations have proven continuously unsatisfactory and it is now clear that the interactions between Hinduism and Islam were perhaps driven by stories of violence, bloodshed and slaughter more that stories of peaceful co-existance.

However uncomfortable this history is to face, I find the search for the objective truth amongst the new 'elites' to be positive. Will truth actually triumph or will history become the handmaiden of politics? Who knows

A common cause :

For a people to work together or even for democracy to work there has to be a common purpose or a shared sense of identity (Aristotle). Hopefully, in the future a sense of humanity develops to break the divisions of religion, race etc but we are not there yet.

The early Indian political system was dominated by the Congress Party (The party of Gandhi/Nehru) and whilst they certainly did some good there is a lot of merit to the accusation that they ruthlessly exploited religious and caste divisions to stay in power. "Caste-Equation" was a commonly used term during these times.

It is the BJP that is now gathering votes across caste-lines and making political leaders reach out to Dalits (Lowest caste). It is the BJP that has amassed a vast network of foot soldiers to do their bidding - sometimes to terrible effects (VHP etc) and sometimes to positive effect (COVID outreach, social welfare programs etc). People across India divided by language and ethnicity are responding to the clarion call asking Hindus to unite and re-build the Hindu civilization

Psyche of a nation:

The mentality of people has a huge role in how a culture develops and how a nation functions. The history taught to Indians since 1947 has been of the fact that Hindus have lost every war, a lot of precedence given to the Mughal empire culminating with Gandhi as the sole reason for Indian independence. This ideology has led to a meek apologetic and dare I say subservient Indian emerging for the first 50 years of Independence.

The fall of the Soviet Union and the emergence of the USA as a unipolar nation and its export of Hollywood didn't help. In 1990 when India opened up to the world, everything Western was deemed to be aspirational. The thinking went, why not just westernize to modernize (Kemalism). However, this emergent class (the class of people I grew up with) were also arrogant to a fault, they had no humility to objectively assess the West, they looked down on some of the brightest minds that were coming through from the remotest villages in India because they spoke broken English or English with an accent that was to be mocked.

The emergence of the BJP inverted this dynamic on its head. The question asked " If Hindus have lost every war, then why is it the only pre-abrahamic civilization to survive the abrahamic onslaught". As nations and continents fell to the Crusades and Islamic expansion, as entire ethnic groups were wiped out, it is India and India alone that still stands. To paraphrase Modi, 200 years fighting the British and 800 years fighting Islam yet we're still here. It's time to stop being sheep

They didn't just talk, within weeks of Atal Vajpayee (first BJP prime minister) returning to power they conducted the nuclear tests announcing Indias arrival as a nuclear power. They took a more aggressive posture which in my opinion is a better way of dealing with the world. We are not like the CCP who look at everything from a transactional perspective but the deference of previous governments would never have got us anywhere.

A more assertive Indian has emerged amongst the 'elites', the poster child of them would probably be Jaishankar (Indias Minister of External Affairs). His call-out about Western hypocrisy on Russian oil got a lot of views from the Global South

The question now asked is "How do we modernize without westernizing?" (Dugin). Infinitely harder, infinitely more sustainable and honorable though


Economics (??)

The early socialists of India created a bloated state system that was cushy if you were inside it but dysfunctional for everyone else. Government employees were rude, obnoxious, never worked and could never lose their job. This mentality seeped through every aspect of Indian life. "We are like this only","Nothing can be done","Chalta Hai". Mediocrity was celebrated and competition considered abhorrent. The private sector was a laughing stock. It was vitally important that this kind of attitude was completely crushed.

The uncomfortable truth is that it is highly likely not all of us are going to make it. Our population is going to peak at 1.7 billion  by 2050 and we are not prepared for it. There is also a sociological aspect that no one will openly talk about but multiple Indian ethnic groups have remained closed of from other Indian ethnic groups for the better part of half a millenium (highly insular ethnic groups culturally) and the idea I think is to send a shockwave through the entire country. Create as many opportunities as possible using a mix of hyper neo-liberalism and state backed behemoths (Chalebols, Korea) in new urban areas and let Indians from all over compete for them. Throw everyone into the melting pot and create a system where you hope the brightest and toughest emerge.

To cushion the massive societal change that is going to take place I suspect the BJP is banking on the massive social programs they are building to be sufficient. Will it be, Who knows?

I do agree with them, this nation needed a massive shock. Let us keep monitoring and evaluate if we need course correction. I do not think we are anywhere near that now, wealth inequality may be rising but their social programs appear to be working. In the recent elections of Indias largest and most poor state (population 200 million) the BJP triumphed on the back of women votes. No small correlation to all their welfare programs targeted at women specifically.

Of course the biggest problem is you become like USA where the people hoarding the wealth become more powerful than the government itself and capture all the insutitutions but we are far from that. In the USA, wall street may tell Congress how high to jump but in India the BJP still has complete control over the Adanis and Ambanis

It is easy to criticize all this but we are not interested in the moral grandstanding of the West. Either provide solutions or get out of our way.

Why India is getting worse

The level of discourse from the right

The victory of the Hindutva ideology is almost certain now. It is stil of relevenece as to which version of it will triumph? Will it be Atal Vajpayee version or Modi version or the man who likely comes next (Yogi)? Modi wrestled power from Atal but if Modi scares you then Yogi would terrify you or maybe other factions within the BJP will win and go back to Atals vision

The problem is the political leaders are a reflection of Indian rural society (After all, that is where they come from) which is violent. You don't get to the top of Indian politics by being noble or even the most capable. To put it bluntly, in the West it may be bling-bling, out here it's bling-bang.

In their effort to push through the revival of interest in Hindu culture they conflate every Muslim with Islam. Some of the language even if lost in translation is not becoming for leaders of the nation.

But then, on an average that is where we are not and there were clear drawbacks with implementing democracy in a largely illiterate and feudal society. Yet, here we are and there is no way we can change the political system now


The moral bankruptcy of the political left

Unfortunately, the left in my country in an attempt to stand with Muslims in many ways have become apologetic for Islam which further weakens their position in the politcal landscape.

Their stance that "Muslims are beleagured and under fire" might hold true for the average moderate Muslim but it is misleading because there are huge Muslim organizations in India that are as backward as Islam allows. The recent Nupur Sharma case summed it up, even the BBC censored what actually happened but in one sentence prominent Muslim leaders say Islam is a peaceful religion, in another they ask for her to be beheaded. For what, for quoting the book itself? Absurd

They oppose the proposed uniform civil code which would bring Muslims under the same law that governs all other religions in India because it is a "threat to their identity". What the actual fuck?

The idea that minorities are under fire is also absurd. Hinduism and Buddhism have no conflict, the BJP in general is more than comfortable with Sikkhism. As covered earlier, there are steps to empower both Dalits and Women. The only friction point which goes back to the history of the sub-continent is alsong the Hinduism-Islam divide

They need a re-think but devoid of new ideas or even critical thinking it appears they have check-mated themselves. Everything they do strengthens the hand of the BJP

Opposition

Sometimes it is good for a strong opposition to question the ruling government (when it is necessary). Unfortunately, in my country thre are many political parties that  say they will oppose the ruling party for the sake of opposing it no matter how much sense the policy actually made. They actively make implementing good proposals exteremly hard for no good reason. This pissed a lot of people of and there is a strong belief that the checks and balances are actually a hinderance

The stance goes that elections are necessary and should be had without fail but whoever wins should be able to rule however they want till the next elections. A mixture of autocracy and democracy if you will.

Will it work in India? I don't know, maybe, maybe not. Time reveals all I suppose


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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2022, 09:48:44 pm »
“ BJP in general is more than comfortable with Sikhism”

They may be comfortable with us, it does not mean we are comfortable with them.

However, in the whole a very insightful piece. Although I do think your massively underplaying the pretty overt anti-Muslim sentiment of the BJP and some of the other areas the country has gone backwards. Press freedom feels like it gone massively backwards since 2014, and it wasn’t great to begin with. As I alluded to previously, my biggest worry is India feels like it’s going down the well trodden path of virtual one party states like Russia.
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Offline Max_powers

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2022, 10:46:50 pm »
“ BJP in general is more than comfortable with Sikhism”

They may be comfortable with us, it does not mean we are comfortable with them.

However, in the whole a very insightful piece. Although I do think your massively underplaying the pretty overt anti-Muslim sentiment of the BJP and some of the other areas the country has gone backwards. Press freedom feels like it gone massively backwards since 2014, and it wasn’t great to begin with. As I alluded to previously, my biggest worry is India feels like it’s going down the well trodden path of virtual one party states like Russia.

There are plenty of people who are fine with this. The fellow you are talking to is one of them. He wants the authoritarianism. He worships it in fact. However, there many that aren't. BJP and its allies are only getting about ~35% of national vote in most election. The problem is a disjointed opposition. Modi's power is weaker than you would think. Yes he controls the media. However, he has nothing to solve bigger issues in the country so there are many people who are disaffected by them.

The thing with Hindu Nationalism is that it is just further fracturing the country along religious lines. Rather than dealing with basic issues in India like youth unemployment, stagnating growth, corruption. All people care about is religion. 

Hate breeds more hate. If Hindus want a Hindu nation then why shouldn't Sikhs and Muslim dominated regions want succession. If you watch the documentary series Death of Yugoslavia it clearly shows the path that Nationalism can lead down.

India is incredibly diverse country, but some cow pee drinking people think that only states like UP, Bihar etc is real India the rest of the country should just bow to their wills. 

Offline Dancingtillnirvana

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2022, 11:01:04 pm »


They may be comfortable with us, it does not mean we are comfortable with them.

 As I alluded to previously, my biggest worry is India feels like it’s going down the well trodden path of virtual one party states like Russia.

Indeed, Sikh dynamics are complicated especially the disconnect between foreign born and Indian born Sikhs. In hindsight, it isn't surprising AAP won there

I do think the second point is overblown. The Russian one-party state is due to fraudulent elections. Elections are free and fair in India and always will be. If a virtual one party state continues it will be because of the triumph of their ideology and ideas

Offline Dancingtillnirvana

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2022, 11:09:19 pm »
He wants the authoritarianism. He worships it in fact

 ??? Have you confused me with someone else mate? I never said I wanted authoritarianism

As for your number, you are right but if you follow Indian politics you will know getting 35% of the national vote is an astonishing achievement - the highest in three decades

I disagree with your statement that Hindu nationalism is "fracturing" the country. As I have stated it is uniting 80% of the country (Hindus) cutting across the internal division between Hindus that have been exploited by other parties (Aryan-Dravidian divide, Linguistic divide, Caste divide etc)

As for Yugoslavia, Whilst the Serbs (Orthodox Christians) were a majority they were almost matched equally by Croatians (Roman Catholic) and Bosnians (Muslims)  with no linkage between them. Only the brute force of Tito kept it together, when he left academic concepts of federalism were not enough to sustain the union.

In India, the BJP is betting big that Hinduism (80% of the country) is strong enough to keep the country united. The early signs are encouraging. Back to back election victories with no need for an alliance is nothing to scoff at in modern Indian politics

As for your other statement, Muslim dominated regions already got their secession. I believe we call that region Pakistan nowadays.

As for Sikh secession, Sikkhism is an extension of Hinduism (maybe an even more honorable version of it), the political left play to try and create a divide there is one of the reasons I listed in my original post why the political left are check-mating themselves.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2022, 11:17:58 pm by Dancingtillnirvana »

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2022, 12:14:32 am »
Indeed, Sikh dynamics are complicated especially the disconnect between foreign born and Indian born Sikhs. In hindsight, it isn't surprising AAP won there

I do think the second point is overblown. The Russian one-party state is due to fraudulent elections. Elections are free and fair in India and always will be. If a virtual one party state continues it will be because of the triumph of their ideology and ideas

There is a disconnect between Indian Sikhs and those of us who live abroad. The diaspora is certainly more pro-succession, but it’s always easier to be in support of a succession or a fight for freedom when your thousands of miles away. But at the same time let’s not forget, the diaspora doesn’t vote in the elections, the people back home do and they resoundingly rejected the BJP in the Punjab state elections.

On the second point, it doesn’t feel overblown. You don’t need fraudulent elections to create a virtual one part state, a compliant media, selective use of the law etc etc, it’s quite easy to win the argument when the other side is silenced.
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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2022, 01:37:21 am »
??? Have you confused me with someone else mate? I never said I wanted authoritarianism

As for your number, you are right but if you follow Indian politics you will know getting 35% of the national vote is an astonishing achievement - the highest in three decades

I disagree with your statement that Hindu nationalism is "fracturing" the country. As I have stated it is uniting 80% of the country (Hindus) cutting across the internal division between Hindus that have been exploited by other parties (Aryan-Dravidian divide, Linguistic divide, Caste divide etc)

As for Yugoslavia, Whilst the Serbs (Orthodox Christians) were a majority they were almost matched equally by Croatians (Roman Catholic) and Bosnians (Muslims)  with no linkage between them. Only the brute force of Tito kept it together, when he left academic concepts of federalism were not enough to sustain the union.

In India, the BJP is betting big that Hinduism (80% of the country) is strong enough to keep the country united. The early signs are encouraging. Back to back election victories with no need for an alliance is nothing to scoff at in modern Indian politics

As for your other statement, Muslim dominated regions already got their secession. I believe we call that region Pakistan nowadays.

As for Sikh secession, Sikkhism is an extension of Hinduism (maybe an even more honorable version of it), the political left play to try and create a divide there is one of the reasons I listed in my original post why the political left are check-mating themselves.

I am assuming that you are the same fellow who has been banned from RAWK like 20 times and doesn't really support LFC. He just pops into Indian and Chinese political threads and likes to whine about liberals. My reasons for assuming that is that  guy also changes his location to random places and never posts in any other forum or talks about football.

Anyways. Sikhism is not an extension of Hinduism. Based on its tenets its the quite opposite of Hinduism. Its monotheistic, against idol worship etc.

You can blame who ever you want but last 8 years have been really politically turbulent. Yes BJP is winning elections but we have seen mass protests about farming laws, joblessness, CAA NRC, you name it. What is this "united" India actually achieving? That is what matters.

Its economic growth has slowed, income inequality still bad as ever maybe even worse. International reputation also declining due to human right issues and eroding of democracy. What's India's long term economic plan? Its losing allies and losing trust from trade partners too.

Hindus are no better off now than 2014. If anything due to religious tensions are even worse now. Pretty much every year we get some communal violence now. So where is the actual progress? Your post earlier just throughs some insults towards left, while providing any specifics on how things are better now. Also nice quote from Dugin btw. Do you know who he is and what he stands for? If you start following that type of political narrative then India's economy in 10 years will be like Russia's now.

Do you want me list some of the promises made by Modi and how they have panned out in his tenure?


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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2022, 01:38:25 am »
I am assuming that you are the same fellow who has been banned from RAWK like 20 times and doesn't really support LFC. He just pops into Indian and Chinese political threads and likes to whine about liberals. My reasons for assuming that is that  guy also changes his location to random places and never posts in any other forum or talks about football.

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2022, 02:08:21 am »


Anyways. Sikhism is not an extension of Hinduism. Based on its tenets its the quite opposite of Hinduism. Its monotheistic, against idol worship etc.

Yes BJP is winning elections but we have seen mass protests about farming laws, joblessness, CAA NRC, you name it. What is this "united" India actually achieving? That is what matters.

Its losing allies and losing trust from trade partners too.


You can be an atheist and still be a Hindu, you can be a materialist and still be a Hindu, you can worship one god and still be a Hindu.

Attempting to split Sikhism from Hinduism which contains the Hindu/Buddhist concepts or re-incarnation, karma is a new one I haven't heard before and frankly quite astonishing


Is progress meant to be a linear curve without strife? Has this ever happened anywhere? That too in a country like India where everyone protests for something? whether they understand what they are protesting for or not is irrelevant to some of them - one of the drawbacks I listed

What allies has India lost? The only allies India has had are Russia, France, Israel who stills stand with us today. Tech transfer from all three are progressing with France especially accelerating this. New allies are emerging in Japan.

Your view about "losing international standing" links back to my point about a class of people more concerned with what the West thinks rather than objectively assessing the world. Indias relationship with the Global South continues to strengthen.

We buy Russian Oil because it is in our interests to do so and the EU still wants to expand trade relationship. This is what a self-confident nation does. It does not wring hands wondering what the West thinks of them or hold perceived thoughts about their "standing" in the Wests eyes. One day it is unacceptable for us to buy Iranian oil then suddenly it is okay for us to do so because America no longer has a problem with it and doesn't want us to buy Russian oil? "With friends like them who needs enemies?"

When we had a problem with China the EU told us to "engage in dialogue". So now our message to them is the same : "engage in dialogue".

But the quality of life of the average Hindu is increasing, evidence points to the success of the welfare programs :

https://electionwatch.unimelb.edu.au/articles/india-is-now-officially-99-electrified,-but-electricity-remains-high-on-the-political-agenda#:~:text=Has%20the%20BJP%20delivered%3F,India%20have%20now%20been%20electrified.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/opinion/welfare-to-governance-what-worked-for-the-bjp-101647052022497.html

this is why they voted for the BJP again. You contradict yourself, you say that the BJP has done nothing, so why did they win again with a larger majority? Even if there is no alternative at the national level they should have diluted the votes to ensure BJP could not come to power without an alliance

Is it possible that just maybe your bias prevents you from an objective assesment of what is actually happening on the ground?

I also don't mean to say that the BJP is perfect but if democracy is a marketplace of ideas then it is the BJP which is providing the most convincing arguments and solutions. If you feel there are better solutions then nothing is stopping you from joining the Indian political system and providing actionable solutions. The nation has enough preachers, we need people willing to sweat now :)
« Last Edit: June 16, 2022, 02:20:32 am by Dancingtillnirvana »

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2022, 04:15:15 am »
Yeah you are the same dude. Welcome back.

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2022, 07:46:04 am »

Attempting to split Sikhism from Hinduism which contains the Hindu/Buddhist concepts or re-incarnation, karma is a new one I haven't heard before and frankly quite astonishing


What on earth are you on about? Sikhism and Hinduism are already separated and have been for hundreds of years. It is exactly this kind of attitude that thankfully keeps the BJP out of Punjab.
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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2022, 07:47:06 am »
What on earth are you on about? Sikhism and Hinduism are already separated and have been for hundreds of years. It is exactly this kind of attitude that thankfully keeps the BJP out of Punjab.

I think he's been banned numerous times.

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2022, 07:52:21 am »
I think he's been banned numerous times.

Yeah, it’s quite odd though isn’t it? To spend your time lurking on a football forum in case anyone criticises the BJP so you can run to their defence. I wonder what if he does the same on other forums?
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Offline Dancingtillnirvana

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2022, 08:52:48 am »
What on earth are you on about? Sikhism and Hinduism are already separated and have been for hundreds of years. It is exactly this kind of attitude that thankfully keeps the BJP out of Punjab.

Of course they are separate. The effort to split the origin of Sikhism from Hinduism, the political left is pursuing a strategy to break the historical links between different religions in India. The idea being if there is no historical link then it should theoretically be possible create a faultline that can be exploited to halt the progress of Hindutva

They don't realize that the BJP tends to adapt very quickly, since the Punjabi Sikhs have pursued a political movement to integrate with Hindus the BJP will never push too hard in Punjab. The Punjabi Sikhs have earned the trust and right to pursue their own development path

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/how-pm-narendra-modi-and-the-bjp-have-sought-to-reach-out-to-the-sikh-community/articleshow/90977884.cms

I've never posted on this site before  ???. I just found the topic interesting

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2022, 09:15:08 am »
Of course they are separate. The effort to split the origin of Sikhism from Hinduism, the political left is pursuing a strategy to break the historical links between different religions in India. The idea being if there is no historical link then it should theoretically be possible create a faultline that can be exploited to halt the progress of Hindutva

They don't realize that the BJP tends to adapt very quickly, since the Punjabi Sikhs have pursued a political movement to integrate with Hindus the BJP will never push too hard in Punjab. The Punjabi Sikhs have earned the trust and right to pursue their own development path

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/how-pm-narendra-modi-and-the-bjp-have-sought-to-reach-out-to-the-sikh-community/articleshow/90977884.cms

I've never posted on this site before  ???. I just found the topic interesting


See the problem is your so transparent you can’t even see it yourself.
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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2022, 10:49:00 am »
See the problem is your so transparent you can’t even see it yourself.


It's even the same MO:

1) first post tries to come across as moderate and reasonable
2) after being challenged, is more overtly pro-Hindutva/BJP
3) by the end is openly posting like a Hindutva/BJP campaigner
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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2022, 01:27:39 pm »


This is some hilarious coping. Yeah BJP struggles in Punjab are because they just don't want to win votes there. Lets just forget all that happened in past few years that had nothing to do with it.

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2022, 03:13:58 pm »
This is some hilarious coping. Yeah BJP struggles in Punjab are because they just don't want to win votes there. Lets just forget all that happened in past few years that had nothing to do with it.

I have to say that when I found out that the AAP had won I had a smile from ear to ear. After the rot that’s sat in under the SAD and Congress it really was time for something else.

Hopefully the AAP make a good job of it and show more states that there is an alternative to the BJP and Congress.
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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2022, 08:22:34 pm »
in one sentence prominent Muslim leaders say Islam is a peaceful religion, in another they ask for her to be beheaded.
Typical subcontinent mindset. In one sentence Hindu leaders say that Hinduism is a tolerant religion and then you have people like Yati Narsinghanand.  ;)

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2022, 08:47:59 pm »
Typical subcontinent mindset. In one sentence Hindu leaders say that Hinduism is a tolerant religion and then you have people like Yati Narsinghanand.  ;)

I don’t think hypocrisy is the preserve of the subcontinent.
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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2022, 09:50:30 pm »
I don’t think hypocrisy is the preserve of the subcontinent.
Definitely not. But the extent of it on some topics is remarkable.

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2022, 06:00:11 am »
I have to say that when I found out that the AAP had won I had a smile from ear to ear. After the rot that’s sat in under the SAD and Congress it really was time for something else.

Hopefully the AAP make a good job of it and show more states that there is an alternative to the BJP and Congress.

I don't know. I just have a bad feeling about them.
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