Topic: Sarah Everard* Update Jan 2023 - Met Police rapist.

[RainbowFlick]

Great post.

There have been some awful takes from people the past two days in relation to this post, you know, all the 'not all men' types but the conversations being had are incredibly important. I just hope more people listen and understand the experiences many women go through.

[RyanBabel19]

When this shit is happening to you and most women you know  - to varying degrees - on an almost daily basis, it's hard to believe it's a minority even though that's probably (hopefully) the case. One of the problems is that every time a case like this comes up, or every time something happens that makes women at large speak about their experiences, it's always met with cries of "not all men". I wish people would just, like, listen to us instead.

100%. People need to listen and acknowledge. I think people tend to look to ensure they aren't being blamed and at times it's a direct response to some of the exaggerated statements made by very few. One of the problems with discussions nowadays is that some go by the social media stage and take it as real life, the likes of twitter are an echo chamber and some view it as reality when really the narrative changes depending where you choose to look. As with any discussion i've seen some women saying 'all men are guilty', for some they will look to combat this and defend themselves if they dont deem themselves as someone who falls into the category. Although I feel those particular womens statement aren't true, I think its important to recognise that this is one persons belief and the overall message being conveyed isn't in line with that. Listening, learning and acknowledging is crucial and as a man I feel the best course of action is to see what is being said and see how I can contribute to being part of the solution... jumping to my own defence solves nothing and again is playing into a narrative painted by the minorty instead of paying attention to the real message.

There are some things I know I will never be able to change to make any woman I walk past on the street feel more comfortable, In some cases I alone cant stop a woman feeling like she needs to cross the road or speed up for fear I may attack her, but I can certainly learn what things that may be done with no ill will make a woman feel uncomfortable and why and look at my own behaviours and seeing if any of the things I do are contributing to the problem.

Some peoples first response is to defend themselves anytime a criticism arises and they feel like one of the targets but it isn't about them. It reminds me of the All Lives Matter shouts and both IMO are misguided.

[Snail]

Some peoples first response is to defend themselves anytime a criticism arises and they feel like one of the targets but it isn't about them. It reminds me of the All Lives Matter shouts and both IMO are misguided.

Yep, completely agree.

[classycarra]

No as soon as I got out I could see she was scared and defensive, so as I said, I just said I was trying to help and got back in the car.

I actually looked out for police cars on the way home as I would have let them know there was a girl in distress, but didn't see any.

I'd say the majority of men aren't colossal bellends, but the minority (as in everything) let everyone down.

This is just a hypothetical, and not a criticism, but just wondering in a situation like this might it also be useful to quickly try to deescalate and give the woman (in this example) an opportunity to request support if she would like it?

For example, staying well away (in terms of physical distance), possibly even remaining in your own car, and saying I've got a phone if you would like to call someone or use it for data etc and if you like you can get back in your car and lock the doors and i can pass it to you through a narrowly opened window. Understandably they might still not want to, even if it was something they might need, for very rational reasons. But it at least puts a constructive option on the table.

[redgriffin73]

I stopped once a few years back and a girl had broken down in a mini.

I pulled over to make sure she was OK and she looked terrified and started shouting and me and telling me to fuck off..

Nothing really you can do. I just said "Fair enough, but I was just trying to help."

Got in the car and drove off. Not sure there is anything else you can do in that situation. Hope she got the AA or someone to turn up.

When I broke down on the motorway a few years ago an oldish guy in his 60s or 70s or so stopped his car and insisted on waiting with me till the RAC arrived, it was just starting to get dark and he said he had daughters of his own and wanted to make sure I was OK. Was really touching. (But I fully appreciate it is a difficult situation for men to know what to do, especially younger ones).

I remember thinking that even at his older age he was a bit hesitant at what to do or say, and he stayed away from me a bit at first and said he'd wait in his car if I preferred.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

This is just a hypothetical, and not a criticism, but just wondering in a situation like this might it also be useful to quickly try to deescalate and give the woman (in this example) an opportunity to request support if she would like it?

For example, staying well away (in terms of physical distance), possibly even remaining in your own car, and saying I've got a phone if you would like to call someone or use it for data etc and if you like you can get back in your car and lock the doors and i can pass it to you through a narrowly opened window. Understandably they might still not want to, even if it was something they might need, for very rational reasons. But it at least puts a constructive option on the table.

To be honest I was a bit distressed about it myself. I stopped and got out thinking I was going to help and maybe change a tyre or something but after getting shouted at and told to fuck off, it's not a great situation to deal with.

I just felt at the time that the best way to de-escalate was just to back off and leave.

[vblfc]

Thank you Sian for sharing that.  This has really touched me and made me think hard.  I have an 18 year old daughter who is very independent.  She has called me in this fear situation twice, once at night and once early in morning. It scared her and me shitless even though nothing happened in the end.  I just wanted to run to her. 
The threat of this type of experience is just terrible and unacceptable - We have so much to learn (and correct) as a supposed highly developed species.

[Jono69]

Very well written but extremely sad post that Sian 

My daughter is 11 this year and quite frankly it scares me to death and your post only goes to highlight that

[Snail]

To be honest I was a bit distressed about it myself. I stopped and got out thinking I was going to help and maybe change a tyre or something but after getting shouted at and told to fuck off, it's not a great situation to deal with.

I just felt at the time that the best way to de-escalate was just to back off and leave.

She wasn't reacting like that to hurt your feelings, Andy.

[Kashinoda]

I don't get some of these bellends on twatter and that.

If it's late at night and I'm walking alone I get fucking freaked out if there's someone walking behind me and will try to cross the road if I can, likewise if I see someone walking towards me. I don't like making people feel uneasy and I don't like feeling uneasy. Even if you're a knuckle dragging twat there should be a level of empathy you can muster.

People jump to extremes in no time, no one's policing how you walk home from work.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

She wasn't reacting like that to hurt your feelings, Andy.

Obviously not.

[Sangria]

I don't get some of these bellends on twatter and that.

If it's late at night and I'm walking alone I get fucking freaked out if there's someone walking behind me and will try to cross the road if I can, likewise if I see someone walking towards me. I don't like making people feel uneasy and I don't like feeling uneasy. Even if you're a knuckle dragging twat there should be a level of empathy you can muster.

People jump to extremes in no time, no one's policing how you walk home from work.

They're protective of their rights.

Personally, I reckon I have plenty of rights. I think I can give up some of them temporarily to make life easier for others. If you're a bloke who can take care of himself, it doesn't cost you much to make way for a short while to ease the mind of someone who can't.

[Snail]

Obviously not.

Okay.

[liverbloke]

great opening post

but i have a different story...

about 10 years back i was getting off a bus and had to walk through a rough council estate - it was late at night and dark - and a young woman got off just behind me

i thought about the usual 'do i walk quickly so i'm not seen as a threat to her?' or 'do i take the longer route around so she doesn't have to walk with me?'

in the end i just thought 'fuck it i want to get home' so i started to walk quickly - remember i'm in front of her - well, she ran right up behind me and just stayed there. she didn't talk or acknowledge me at all so i just carried on walking quickly and she stayed right behind me until she got to her gate and then went in!

i think she saw me as some protection

but women have had it pretty shit so as men we've got to do more

yes a weirdo is going to be a weirdo regardless of the law and luckily enough weirdos are the minority but even if only one woman (person child etc but this thread is about women's safety) loses her life then we must act

i'm a man and i know plenty of men who are creepy or passively misogynistic - usually acquaintances of mates so i don't have a say mixing with them on a night out say - and i think it needs to be women to educate those men as other men won't carry the gravitas that a woman can impart addressing a group of men

[Snail]

and i think it needs to be women to educate those men as other men won't carry the gravitas that a woman can impart addressing a group of men

Nope, sorry, it is absolutely not our responsibility to "educate" men and tell them they shouldn't assault us. Come on.

And for what it's worth, as I mentioned earlier, whenever women speak out about their experiences they just get a barrage of "not all men" whataboutery in response, so it's not like your theory would even work.

[Indomitable_Carp]

I agree with much of what you say but I'm not sure this language is particularly helpful as it just feeds into a very unhealthy view of masculinity. For every man there will be a situation where he will not intervene, whether it's due to a sense of loyalty or just numbers. By describing this as cowardice doesn't really move the conversation along; we need to make the problem behaviour socially and culturally unacceptable so that physical intervention is not necessary because an unwritten social contract is in place.

Exactly this.

There have been times when I have confronted men who have I have seen being violent or abusive to their partners in the street. But there have been other times when I have kept my head down and/or because I have been alone or the guy is clearly a psycho who would rip me to pieces. That doesn´t make me less of a man. It just means I am also concerned for my own personal safety as is everyone else.

While it is mens job to challenge our friends, challenge "Sexist" banter and all the rest of it, it is not our job to be policing the streets in some form of vigilantism. The idea that men should have to confront other men in the street as some kind of ´manly´ duty just feeds into the all the other toxic masculine bullshit.

[Sangria]

great opening post

but i have a different story...

about 10 years back i was getting off a bus and had to walk through a rough council estate - it was late at night and dark - and a young woman got off just behind me

i thought about the usual 'do i walk quickly so i'm not seen as a threat to her?' or 'do i take the longer route around so she doesn't have to walk with me?'

in the end i just thought 'fuck it i want to get home' so i started to walk quickly - remember i'm in front of her - well, she ran right up behind me and just stayed there. she didn't talk or acknowledge me at all so i just carried on walking quickly and she stayed right behind me until she got to her gate and then went in!

i think she saw me as some protection

but women have had it pretty shit so as men we've got to do more

yes a weirdo is going to be a weirdo regardless of the law and luckily enough weirdos are the minority but even if only one woman (person child etc but this thread is about women's safety) loses her life then we must act

i'm a man and i know plenty of men who are creepy or passively misogynistic - usually acquaintances of mates so i don't have a say mixing with them on a night out say - and i think it needs to be women to educate those men as other men won't carry the gravitas that a woman can impart addressing a group of men

And blokes should acknowledge that they have a power and freedom that women don't have, and recognise that they don't have to do much to make society better. This is one of those cases where a large section of the population can actually actively do something, that isn't much, to make society better, and which publicity can educate us on.

[RyanBabel19]

Nope, sorry, it is absolutely not our responsibility to "educate" men and tell them they shouldn't assault us. Come on.

And for what it's worth, as I mentioned earlier, whenever women speak out about their experiences they just get a barrage of "not all men" whataboutery in response, so it's not like your theory would even work.

I agree wholeheartedly that women shouldn’t have to educate men on that aspect, what are your thoughts on things in terms of comments and behaviours and men learning about what to do in different scenarios though. I look to pull friends up all the time on things I perceive as wrong or insensitive to women... but I am a man, I won’t always recognise things as I can’t have a woman’s perspective no matter how much I try to lear, much the same way as seemingly innocent comments from some people to me won’t always be picked up on and commented on from my friends of different races when I feel something with racial undertones has been directed at me, they can’t contribute to stamping out what they don’t see!

I’d love to know more about what different things are harmful or damaging to a woman’s self esteem, safety etc but I can’t ever know this fully without the help of someone who experiences it literally or knows how that feels. I will never be an expert but the more I know and can impart upon my male friends, colleagues and family the better. I’d hate for my girlfriend, female friends or family members to ever feel as though they couldn’t speak about their experiences to me in the knowing I would look to use it in a positive way rather than be dismissive. Is the ‘right’ action in education somewhere been/a mixture of men educating themselves and women not educating men for fear of being marginalised or facing backlash and a defensive ‘not me’ stance?

[liverbloke]

Nope, sorry, it is absolutely not our responsibility to "educate" men and tell them they shouldn't assault us. Come on.

And for what it's worth, as I mentioned earlier, whenever women speak out about their experiences they just get a barrage of "not all men" whataboutery in response, so it's not like your theory would even work.

nah you've got me all wrong

the most powerful way to get this message across if for women to tell men their experiences - what do you want? men to tell those guys how women feel?

so, to be clear, it's NOT for women solely to educate men BUT they would hold more gravitas in getting THEIR feelings and experiences across

surely you must agree with that?

[Snail]

I agree wholeheartedly that women shouldn’t have to educate men on that aspect, what are your thoughts on things in terms of comments and behaviours and men learning about what to do in different scenarios though. I look to pull friends up all the time on things I perceive as wrong or insensitive to women... but I am a man, I won’t always recognise things as I can’t have a woman’s perspective no matter how much I try to lear, much the same way as seemingly innocent comments from some people to me won’t always be picked up on and commented on from my friends of different races when I feel something with racial undertones has been directed at me, they can’t contribute to stamping out what they don’t see!

I’d love to know more about what different things are harmful or damaging to a woman’s self esteem, safety etc but I can’t ever know this fully without the help of someone who experiences it literally or knows how that feels. I will never be an expert but the more I know and can impart upon my male friends, colleagues and family the better. I’d hate for my girlfriend, female friends or family members to ever feel as though they couldn’t speak about their experiences to me in the knowing I would look to use it in a positive way rather than be dismissive. Is the ‘right’ action in education somewhere been/a mixture of men educating themselves and women not educating men for fear of being marginalised or facing backlash and a defensive ‘not me’ stance?

On a basic level, if I see someone I think is attractive, I wouldn’t dream of just walking up to them completely cold and asking for their number or trying to give them mine. I wouldn’t dream of grabbing their arse, or any other body part, or blocking their path on the pavement, or shouting something out to them. That seems like basic humanity to me, so we can start with that, and as I mentioned before - people need to start calling their mates out on this, because everyone has mates who do stuff like that.

It gets more difficult beyond that. I don’t want men to feel like they have to cross the road or take longer routes home to avoid making women feel uncomfortable, but on the other hand, women cross the road or take longer routes home to avoid danger as a matter of course. Pretty much every inconvenience “threatened” on men when this subject is brought up is an inconvenience that is part of women’s daily lives, and I cannot stress that enough. You don’t want to alter your behaviour? Neither do I, but I’ve been doing it for fucking 20 years.

[FlashGordon]

On a basic level, if I see someone I think is attractive, I wouldn’t dream of just walking up to them completely cold and asking for their number or trying to give them mine. I wouldn’t dream of grabbing their arse, or any other body part, or blocking their path on the pavement, or shouting something out to them. That seems like basic humanity to me, so we can start with that, and as I mentioned before - people need to start calling their mates out on this, because everyone has mates who do stuff like that.

It gets more difficult beyond that. I don’t want men to feel like they have to cross the road or take longer routes home to avoid making women feel uncomfortable, but on the other hand, women cross the road or take longer routes home to avoid danger as a matter of course. Pretty much every inconvenience “threatened” on men when this subject is brought up is an inconvenience that is part of women’s daily lives, and I cannot stress that enough. You don’t want to alter your behaviour? Neither do I, but I’ve been doing it for fucking 20 years.

I'm sorry but this is a complete over simplification. Women do this to men also. I've had my crotch and arse grabbed. I've had other experiences as well. I wouldn't dream of doing anything you've mentioned either.

On the second point, how do I go about altering someone else's behaviour when I'm not in their company. Genuine question here. You can say have a chat with your mates etc. but I don't have any mates who act like that, and if I do they are obviously good at hiding it which would lead me to believe it wouldn't matter what I say to them.

[Snail]

nah you've got me all wrong

the most powerful way to get this message across if for women to tell men their experiences - what do you want? men to tell those guys how women feel?

so, to be clear, it's NOT for women solely to educate men BUT they would hold more gravitas in getting THEIR feelings and experiences across

surely you must agree with that?

Sorry if I was harsh in my original reply to you, but my point is that women frequently and repeatedly tell men about their experiences and it doesn’t work. We either get “listened to” and then forgotten about, or we get told about how it’s “awful, but...”. We’re still getting hurt, and I’ve witnessed first-hand men egging each other on and perpetuating this culture of hatred, so I think it needs to come from men.

I mean, honestly, I don’t think it’ll ever get better. I hope I never have a daughter.

[Hij]

I'm sorry but this is a complete over simplification. Women do this to men also. I've had my crotch and arse grabbed.

While this may be the case and they should keep their hands off you, the same power dynamics aren't really at play there are they?

[FlashGordon]

While this may be the case and they should keep their hands off you, the same power dynamics aren't really at play there are they?

No and thankfully I've never felt in danger. I can't empathise with that. They've still behaved in the same way though haven't they? Some people are idiots. We can all agree on that. More of these idiots tend to be male than female, but it's not exclusive to one sex. What we do about the idiots is anyone's guess though.

[Snail]

I was actually thinking about mentioning that some women grope men as well, but I didn’t in the end. Wish I had, because now the usual thing has happened.

[Son of Spion]

nah you've got me all wrong

the most powerful way to get this message across if for women to tell men their experiences - what do you want? men to tell those guys how women feel?

so, to be clear, it's NOT for women solely to educate men BUT they would hold more gravitas in getting THEIR feelings and experiences across

surely you must agree with that?

I think Sian's superb opening post backs you up here. In itself, it is/was highly educational to anyone looking to learn about what it feels like to be female in our society. It's clearly not Sian's responsibility to educate anyone on this matter, but the fact that she has done anyway has been powerful and effective.

Thing is, males do not know what it's like to be female. Of course, we should all have empathy for each other as human beings anyway, but unless we walk in someone else's shoes we cannot fully understand their experiences. So, the more we know about these experiences and their effects from those who go through them, the better. This helps with greater understanding and the development of greater empathy.

The more men that become better educated on this, the more men there are out there able and willing to educate other men too.

[liverbloke]

Sorry if I was harsh in my original reply to you, but my point is that women frequently and repeatedly tell men about their experiences and it doesn’t work. We either get “listened to” and then forgotten about, or we get told about how it’s “awful, but...”. We’re still getting hurt, and I’ve witnessed first-hand men egging each other on and perpetuating this culture of hatred, so I think it needs to come from men.

I mean, honestly, I don’t think it’ll ever get better. I hope I never have a daughter.

but obviously this method - or lack of it - hasn't worked in all this time and we keep on seeing women dying for no other reason than for being a woman so we seriously need to be looking at other methods

[FlashGordon]

I was actually thinking about mentioning that some women grope men as well, but I didn’t in the end. Wish I had, because now the usual thing has happened.

It's not the usual thing. I'm not trying to deflect or derail the thread through whataboutism. I was pointing out it goes both ways but I, as a male, don't feel endangered in that scenario. It's only the feeling of danger that is felt by females in those situations that makes it different. What can we do about that though?

[Welshred]

No and thankfully I've never felt in danger. I can't empathise with that. They've still behaved in the same way though haven't they? Some people are idiots. We can all agree on that. More of these idiots tend to be male than female, but it's not exclusive to one sex. What we do about the idiots is anyone's guess though.

I don't think you're going to find 97% of men saying they've been sexually assaulted. Yes it happens to men but it's predominantly men doing it to women and by such a large degree as well. This is some kind of Trumpian "there's bad people on both sides" sort of thing.

[TSC]

I was actually thinking about mentioning that some women grope men as well, but I didn’t in the end. Wish I had, because now the usual thing has happened.

But as mentioned above the same ‘power dynamics’ aren’t at play.  The most extreme example being as per the thread title.  While extreme, sadly only the most recent example.

While there may be sporadic examples of women engaging in groping etc, they don’t tend to abduct and murder men.

[Snail]

But as mentioned above the same ‘power dynamics’ aren’t at play.  The most extreme example being as per the thread title.  While extreme, sadly only the most recent example.

While there may be sporadic examples of women engaging in groping etc, they don’t tend to abduct and murder men.

You’re preaching to the choir my friend

[redbyrdz]

I'd say the majority of men aren't colossal bellends, but the minority (as in everything) let everyone down.

The problem is, a lot of the more "harmless" (its not really) stuff is common. What Sian writes - the school experiences, the drunk lads on a night out that won't leave you alone, all of that is very common.

[Snail]

Remains confirmed as Sarah’s. May she rest in peace, my heart is broken for her and her family and friends.

[stewy17]

I was actually thinking about mentioning that some women grope men as well, but I didn’t in the end. Wish I had, because now the usual thing has happened.

Nevermind that you didn't claim that women don't do it, either.

The starting point for this really needs to be that the overwhelming majority of women in this country have been sexually assaulted in some way in their lives and that the overwhelming majority of people who commit sexual assault are men. Yes, 'not all men' but fucking hell we're so beyond that.

From a male perspective yeah it's really fucking uncomfortable to look at yourself as a potential threat to a woman, particularly if you've always conducted yourself in a respectful way, but it doesn't come near the discomfort that women feel on a daily basis. The pulling your mates element is, I think, the main thing we need to focus on in this. There is still too much of the "wayyyyyyy LADZ" culture out there which is the basis for a lot of this behaviour. The silly twats beeping girls as they go past or catcalling, it's generally ignorant and puerile idiots who are just showing off. It can stop if people stop laughing at it, stop encouraging it.

We can unfortunately never eradicate the kind of monster who has attacked this woman, but that's not really the point here. It's about trying to eradicate those other behaviours which add to the discomfort and are done without thought of the real impact that they have on the person they're aimed at.

Make sure boys are taught to respect girls in school and that unwanted physical contact is not ok and pull up your dickhead mates and grow up a bit.

[Son of Spion]

I was actually thinking about mentioning that some women grope men as well, but I didn’t in the end. Wish I had, because now the usual thing has happened.

This kind of topic always expands. I've seen it countless times over the years.

The facts are, the problems are with human beings generally, and not just with one sex. All humans have the capability to abuse. One in four women and one in six men will be a victim of domestic violence and/or psychological abuse by a partner in their lifetimes. That's horrific statistics. It's a human issue, although you have highlighted the attitude towards females present within far too many males in our society. I'm glad you put it out there too. It's one of the most powerful posts I've ever read, anywhere.

[Son of Spion]

[/left]59610 date=1615557476]
Remains confirmed as Sarah’s. May she rest in peace, my heart is broken for her and her family and friends.

Tragic. 

RIP.

[Welshred]

Remains confirmed as Sarah’s. May she rest in peace, my heart is broken for her and her family and friends.

Dreadful news, I can't even begin to imagine what she went through and the terror she must have been feeling. RIP

[liverbloke]

This kind of topic always expands. I've seen it countless times over the years.

The facts are, the problems are with human beings generally, and not just with one sex. All humans have the capability to abuse. One in four women and one in six men will be a victim of domestic violence and/or psychological abuse by a partner in their lifetimes. That's horrific statistics. It's a human issue, although you have highlighted the attitude towards females present within far too many males in our society. I'm glad you put it out there too. It's one of the most powerful posts I've ever read, anywhere.

you are right spion mate but i think the fact that a thread about women's safety is being hijacked by men saying what about us too?

those posts are missing the point and are not expanding the debate of this thread - they are diluting it

[FlashGordon]

I don't think you're going to find 97% of men saying they've been sexually assaulted. Yes it happens to men but it's predominantly men doing it to women and by such a large degree as well. This is some kind of Trumpian "there's bad people on both sides" sort of thing.

No it's not. I was saying that it happens to both sexes but one sex obviously feels endangered by it a lot more than the other. I was wondering what could be done to change that? One thing I know for sure is you're not going to able to stop it happening. As I said previously some people are idiots, always will be, therefore is there any solutions that are actually workable.

Think you know me better than to say I'm resorting to some Trumpian bad people on both sides argument. If it came across that way then my apologies, I didn't intend for it to do so.

[FlashGordon]

This kind of topic always expands. I've seen it countless times over the years.

The facts are, the problems are with human beings generally, and not just with one sex. All humans have the capability to abuse. One in four women and one in six men will be a victim of domestic violence and/or psychological abuse by a partner in their lifetimes. That's horrific statistics. It's a human issue, although you have highlighted the attitude towards females present within far too many males in our society. I'm glad you put it out there too. It's one of the most powerful posts I've ever read, anywhere.

Once again you've summed up what I was trying to get at better than myself.

I'm sorry Sian, I was just trying to get around to asking some questions I've later asked in the thread. Your opening post was both inspiring and terrifying in equal measures. I thank you for it as it made me look at things from a different perspective.