Author Topic: Sarah Everard* Update Jan 2023 - Met Police rapist.  (Read 72723 times)

Offline Red Raw

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #40 on: March 11, 2021, 09:46:17 pm »
Don't know if anyone heard Nick Robinson interview with criminologist Professor Marian Fitzgerald on R4 this morining.  I am not sure that the BBC could have found a worse way to cover the personal safety aspect of this deeply upsetting story - literally said not to get 'hysterical' about it because murder is 'rare'. 

Absolutely shocking lack of self awareness and empathy from the pair of them.

Shortly after I heard the analogy about there being ten grapes but knowing one of them was poisoned would be enough to put you off eating any of them.  This pretty much pisses all over what was said in that interview.

Like Paul I have crossed roads to avoid appearing a threat but it is upsetting that this is the reality for people we know and love.  We need to find other ways to be better.

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #41 on: March 11, 2021, 09:59:59 pm »
When you're a little girl, the boys at primary school will try to look up your skirt. You don't really know why they do it, you're only 6, but you know it feels a bit weird. Maybe you tell your mum when you get home, maybe you don't. If you do tell her, maybe she'll say "boys will be boys", or maybe she'll sigh in resignation and tell you to ignore them. She's been there before. We all have.

When you're 11, 12, 13, the boys at secondary school ping your bra strap, sometimes undoing it completely. You'll be sat there trying to pay attention to the teacher, and then you'll feel a sharp snap followed by sniggering. Boys will be boys, and if you say anything, they'll be really horrible to you. It's not worth it. You're 15 now, it's summer, you take off your jumper and your Music teacher compliments you on the bra he can see through your school shirt. You have to stay behind with him to do your GCSE coursework. He compliments you on your haircut and says you look like a rockstar. You know that's not okay but he's a teacher, so how can you say anything? Your insides are squirming and you look at the clock on the wall, willing the seconds to speed up so you can get out of there.

When you walk home from school, sometimes cars beep at you. Sometimes men shout stuff out the window at you. When you're at uni, most days you get your arse grabbed on the bus. Once, you're sat in a beer garden reading a book and a man sits next to you and starts masturbating through his trousers, murmuring "let me come on you, please let me come on you". You quietly stand up, trying not to shake - with fear, with disgust - and you go inside and tell the lad on the bar. He kicks the man out and bars him, offers to call the police. You thank him but you tell him not to bother. He asks you if you're okay, you lie and say you are. You're grateful for his kindness.

The cold, dark night air feels like it's about to grow a pair of hands and grab you. You love listening to music when you walk, but headphones aren't a great idea for a woman. You're hyper-aware of your surroundings, every sound from the trees, every crunch of a twig. You texted your mate, your partner, your mum to tell them you're on the way. It's an unsaid thing, an implication that everyone understands. "I'm on my way" means "I'm on my way, if I'm not back when I should be, start to worry". You wish you could just live your life and do what you want to do without setting yourself curfews for your own safety, but it's been this way for as long as you can remember now.

There's a man walking behind you - quite far behind you - but you feel your heart rate start to pick up. Your hands are stuffed in your pockets, and you tighten your grip around the house keys which are poking out between your knuckles. Frankly, you don't know why you do it - how exactly would it help, it'd probably just make your attacker more angry - but you do it all the same, because it's kind of comforting. Your mind is racing with possible scenarios, escape routes, what might be about to happen to you. You hope you just get mugged or raped, and it doesn't go any further than that. Please, God, don't let it go any further than that... but if it does, please let it be quick.

The man - perhaps sensing your discomfort - crosses over to the other side of the road and calls someone, possibly his wife. You release the breath you didn't even realise you'd been holding, and then you start to feel bad. Bad, because you thought those awful things about someone you don't know - he could be a lovely fella, for all you know. Bad, because you can't walk the streets without picturing the awful things you think might be about to happen to you. Bad, because you're scared all the time. Bad, because for all the nice men out there, there's men like Sarah Everard's attacker. Like Libby Squires' attacker.

Then you get angry. And that's all life is, for a woman. Feeling scared, feeling bad, feeling angry. Scared, bad, angry in the knowledge that it could be you next time. Scared, bad, angry because women will continue to be killed by men until the fiery death of the universe, and there's not a thing to be done about it.

My thoughts are with Sarah Everard's family and friends.
I showed my daughter this, and tears leaked out the corners of her eyes.
She's 21
Couple of months ago she stopped Uber'ing on her own 'cos she felt what you described above.

My thoughts too are with Sarah Everard's family and friends.

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2021, 10:05:29 pm »
It’s very sad that Sian has written that piece.

There should be no need.  No excuses. It’s not one event, it’s not one woman, it’s nit just the occasional incident.  It’s endemic.

No woman should ever have to write that.
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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2021, 10:35:52 pm »
When you're a little girl, the boys at primary school will try to look up your skirt. You don't really know why they do it, you're only 6, but you know it feels a bit weird. Maybe you tell your mum when you get home, maybe you don't. If you do tell her, maybe she'll say "boys will be boys", or maybe she'll sigh in resignation and tell you to ignore them. She's been there before. We all have.

When you're 11, 12, 13, the boys at secondary school ping your bra strap, sometimes undoing it completely. You'll be sat there trying to pay attention to the teacher, and then you'll feel a sharp snap followed by sniggering. Boys will be boys, and if you say anything, they'll be really horrible to you. It's not worth it. You're 15 now, it's summer, you take off your jumper and your Music teacher compliments you on the bra he can see through your school shirt. You have to stay behind with him to do your GCSE coursework. He compliments you on your haircut and says you look like a rockstar. You know that's not okay but he's a teacher, so how can you say anything? Your insides are squirming and you look at the clock on the wall, willing the seconds to speed up so you can get out of there.

When you walk home from school, sometimes cars beep at you. Sometimes men shout stuff out the window at you. When you're at uni, most days you get your arse grabbed on the bus. Once, you're sat in a beer garden reading a book and a man sits next to you and starts masturbating through his trousers, murmuring "let me come on you, please let me come on you". You quietly stand up, trying not to shake - with fear, with disgust - and you go inside and tell the lad on the bar. He kicks the man out and bars him, offers to call the police. You thank him but you tell him not to bother. He asks you if you're okay, you lie and say you are. You're grateful for his kindness.

The cold, dark night air feels like it's about to grow a pair of hands and grab you. You love listening to music when you walk, but headphones aren't a great idea for a woman. You're hyper-aware of your surroundings, every sound from the trees, every crunch of a twig. You texted your mate, your partner, your mum to tell them you're on the way. It's an unsaid thing, an implication that everyone understands. "I'm on my way" means "I'm on my way, if I'm not back when I should be, start to worry". You wish you could just live your life and do what you want to do without setting yourself curfews for your own safety, but it's been this way for as long as you can remember now.

There's a man walking behind you - quite far behind you - but you feel your heart rate start to pick up. Your hands are stuffed in your pockets, and you tighten your grip around the house keys which are poking out between your knuckles. Frankly, you don't know why you do it - how exactly would it help, it'd probably just make your attacker more angry - but you do it all the same, because it's kind of comforting. Your mind is racing with possible scenarios, escape routes, what might be about to happen to you. You hope you just get mugged or raped, and it doesn't go any further than that. Please, God, don't let it go any further than that... but if it does, please let it be quick.

The man - perhaps sensing your discomfort - crosses over to the other side of the road and calls someone, possibly his wife. You release the breath you didn't even realise you'd been holding, and then you start to feel bad. Bad, because you thought those awful things about someone you don't know - he could be a lovely fella, for all you know. Bad, because you can't walk the streets without picturing the awful things you think might be about to happen to you. Bad, because you're scared all the time. Bad, because for all the nice men out there, there's men like Sarah Everard's attacker. Like Libby Squires' attacker.

Then you get angry. And that's all life is, for a woman. Feeling scared, feeling bad, feeling angry. Scared, bad, angry in the knowledge that it could be you next time. Scared, bad, angry because women will continue to be killed by men until the fiery death of the universe, and there's not a thing to be done about it.

My thoughts are with Sarah Everard's family and friends.

That is so powerful Sian and sadly very true.

RIP Sarah Everard.
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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2021, 10:59:22 pm »
This has made me do quite a bit of reflecting, all men should be reflecting right now on they can change their behaviour and if they aren't then there's something wrong. There's still things I can change now. I've walked down a street behind a woman and thought "I hope she doesn't think I'm following her" without changing roads or making it aware I mean no harm. I've sat in the same section of the tube carriage as a woman when we were the only two in that carriage. There are probably countless other examples where I've unintentionally made a woman feel uncomfortable just from my presence and I need to change that, all men need to change that.

Thanks for these words in particular.  Good & honest of you to express this in a public forum - I feel exactly the same and there are similar occurrences that I can reflect on.  I think a significant one for me will be recognising that it's not good enough to sit on my hands (simply to not laugh along, or to say nothing) when seemingly 'passive' & 'harmless' comments/behaviour are heard/read/observed - such comments/behaviour warrant being called out & confronted (not necessarily 'combatively', but it needs to be expressed that I & others disapprove of such things).

Been a long time Frightened Rabbit fan, and some of Scott Hutchison's words (from a fantastic song) immediately sprang to mind as more & more women shared personal accounts of fear, intimidation, & abuse and I realised just how many of us think we're doing the right thing, or enough: "...but I am just like all the rest of them; sorry, selfish, trying to improve". 

Offline Broad Spectrum

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #45 on: March 11, 2021, 11:02:56 pm »
.

Didn't listen to it, but I think they're just trying to reassure people especially given it was a police officer involved. Still, not the best timing.

.

That opening is heavy, and as others have said all too frequent for women.

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #46 on: March 12, 2021, 12:33:42 am »
I've always been a naturally helpful person, so If I see someone broken down, I'll stop and check they are OK. Had one incident when I was about 29, I saw a young girl broken down, so pulled up to check she was OK, she looked absolutely terrified seeing me pull up and walk towards her car, so I just mouthed a quick "You OK" and then left. Felt bad doing that, but my presence was distressing her more.

As for the phone, I'd agree with your friends, you're too distracted and are actually making yourself look like a potential target. My Dad was a 2nd Dan blackbelt in Karate and taught self defence classes and he used to say that women should walk stood straight, look confident and be aware of their surroundings. There was a woman in our gun club who had been attacked twice, my Dad pointed out that they way she carried herself, how she sort of curled in on herself and made herself look small and timid made her attractive to predators.

I stopped once a few years back and a girl had broken down in a mini.

I pulled over to make sure she was OK and she looked terrified and started shouting and me and telling me to fuck off..

Nothing really you can do. I just said "Fair enough, but I was just trying to help."

Got in the car and drove off. Not sure there is anything else you can do in that situation. Hope she got the AA or someone to turn up.
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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #47 on: March 12, 2021, 01:22:16 am »
When you're a little girl, the boys at primary school will try to look up your skirt. You don't really know why they do it, you're only 6, but you know it feels a bit weird. Maybe you tell your mum when you get home, maybe you don't. If you do tell her, maybe she'll say "boys will be boys", or maybe she'll sigh in resignation and tell you to ignore them. She's been there before. We all have.

When you're 11, 12, 13, the boys at secondary school ping your bra strap, sometimes undoing it completely. You'll be sat there trying to pay attention to the teacher, and then you'll feel a sharp snap followed by sniggering. Boys will be boys, and if you say anything, they'll be really horrible to you. It's not worth it. You're 15 now, it's summer, you take off your jumper and your Music teacher compliments you on the bra he can see through your school shirt. You have to stay behind with him to do your GCSE coursework. He compliments you on your haircut and says you look like a rockstar. You know that's not okay but he's a teacher, so how can you say anything? Your insides are squirming and you look at the clock on the wall, willing the seconds to speed up so you can get out of there.

When you walk home from school, sometimes cars beep at you. Sometimes men shout stuff out the window at you. When you're at uni, most days you get your arse grabbed on the bus. Once, you're sat in a beer garden reading a book and a man sits next to you and starts masturbating through his trousers, murmuring "let me come on you, please let me come on you". You quietly stand up, trying not to shake - with fear, with disgust - and you go inside and tell the lad on the bar. He kicks the man out and bars him, offers to call the police. You thank him but you tell him not to bother. He asks you if you're okay, you lie and say you are. You're grateful for his kindness.

The cold, dark night air feels like it's about to grow a pair of hands and grab you. You love listening to music when you walk, but headphones aren't a great idea for a woman. You're hyper-aware of your surroundings, every sound from the trees, every crunch of a twig. You texted your mate, your partner, your mum to tell them you're on the way. It's an unsaid thing, an implication that everyone understands. "I'm on my way" means "I'm on my way, if I'm not back when I should be, start to worry". You wish you could just live your life and do what you want to do without setting yourself curfews for your own safety, but it's been this way for as long as you can remember now.

There's a man walking behind you - quite far behind you - but you feel your heart rate start to pick up. Your hands are stuffed in your pockets, and you tighten your grip around the house keys which are poking out between your knuckles. Frankly, you don't know why you do it - how exactly would it help, it'd probably just make your attacker more angry - but you do it all the same, because it's kind of comforting. Your mind is racing with possible scenarios, escape routes, what might be about to happen to you. You hope you just get mugged or raped, and it doesn't go any further than that. Please, God, don't let it go any further than that... but if it does, please let it be quick.

The man - perhaps sensing your discomfort - crosses over to the other side of the road and calls someone, possibly his wife. You release the breath you didn't even realise you'd been holding, and then you start to feel bad. Bad, because you thought those awful things about someone you don't know - he could be a lovely fella, for all you know. Bad, because you can't walk the streets without picturing the awful things you think might be about to happen to you. Bad, because you're scared all the time. Bad, because for all the nice men out there, there's men like Sarah Everard's attacker. Like Libby Squires' attacker.

Then you get angry. And that's all life is, for a woman. Feeling scared, feeling bad, feeling angry. Scared, bad, angry in the knowledge that it could be you next time. Scared, bad, angry because women will continue to be killed by men until the fiery death of the universe, and there's not a thing to be done about it.

My thoughts are with Sarah Everard's family and friends.

That is one of the best (if that's the right word) posts I've ever read.

The tragic thing is that as disturbing and emotive as the post is, none of it actually shocked me and I'm very familiar with the content of it. I've heard similar from plenty of girlfriends and female friends over the years.

It's affected my own behaviour around females. I'm a naturally helpful type, but if I see a female in difficulty I worry about offering help. I cross the road so I'm not walking behind a female unless it's daytime and there are lots of people around.

It can be so difficult to judge the situation correctly too. I used to have a partner who would get absolutely hammered on drink and get into all sorts of tricky situations. I was working one Christmas so she went out to the pub with my brother and his wife. She got pissed then wandered off. When I got home in the early hours of the morning she wasn't home. It was freezing out, and I went out on my bike (didn't drive then) and eventually found her pissed in the passenger seat of a van with a guy pawing her. I approached and he drove the van straight at me and tried to run me down. He must have driven a fairly short distance then kicked her out, because she turned up eventually. The police couldn't be arsed when I called them and told them he'd drove off with her after trying to run me down. They suggested on the phone that ''we'd had a lover's tiff.''  :butt

From then on I was mortified when I'd see lone females drunk, late at night and looking so horribly vulnerable. A few years later I'd passed my test and had a car. Driving late night near Netherton I saw a woman who was staggering all over the place. No shoes on, clearly wasted and highly vulnerable. Should I help or drive on by? I carried on but couldn't live with myself if something had happened to her, so I turned back. I wanted to make sure she got home. She got in, gave me her address and I drove her to the corner of her street and watched as she went to her house where she said her partner was.

Next day I felt glad I'd got her home safe, but also horrible about how it could have been. What if I'd been a predator? How would she be feeling in the cold light of day knowing she got into a car with a stranger. How would her partner/family feel if they knew about what happened? All kinds of worries popped into my head. She could be traumatised just knowing that it could have been a whole different scenario if I'd been a person inclined to take advantage.

After these experiences I've always had conflicting feelings about offering assistance to females in any kind of situation such as a car breakdown or even if I see a female crying in the street in obvious distress over something. It's really sad that this is the way it is. In trying to be helpful, I worry of being perceived as predatory instead, because I'd hate to think that any female felt she had to fear that about me or any other man.

It's such a messed up world.
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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #48 on: March 12, 2021, 05:44:07 am »
Great post Sian.

What a terrible crime
RIP - Sarah

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #49 on: March 12, 2021, 05:48:47 am »
Reading this felt how tragic...and..common.  Thank you for sharing Sian, in awe of the strength to put this to words. Rest In Peace
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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #50 on: March 12, 2021, 06:40:07 am »

Great post. You know all this stuff happens. But when it is laid out vividly like that it brings it home.

And the sad thing is I have witnessed all this stuff happen myself, whether in school or afterwards. But certainly in school, even if you think it is wrong when you see it, as a boy you keep your own head down so as not to draw attention to youself.

I know a girl who was murdered India. Properly horrific. But it´s "over there". You don´t necessarily think that is the fear that some girls regularly live with at home walking home at night.


I keep telling my missus not to walk through the local park when its dark, she argues with me as she is very confident and almost 6ft tall. If she has a night out with mates, I insist I pick her up, I refuse to let he get a cab these days with the give a plate to anyone culture. Maybe it's more me putting my worries onto her and wanting to take care of her? - she's always walked home/got night buses and taxis before we met.

This is something I struggle with. I do worry if my girlfriend is out all night. But at the same time I want to balance that with my desire to let her be fully independent and not want to pressure her or be over-protective. What´s more you can feel like you are reinforcing that fear, on an interpersonal but also a wider level.

I can be out all night, and my girlfriend will worry (mainly because I am accident prone) - but I don´t think me being molested, raped, kidnapped or worst is high on her list of worries. And that in turn makes me think that if she wants to be out all night or get home in a taxi or even public transport, as I would without thinking twice, it is not something I have a right to impose upon.

And then you get back to reading about stuff like this
« Last Edit: March 12, 2021, 06:45:44 am by Indomitable_Carp »

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #51 on: March 12, 2021, 08:13:24 am »
The scumbag Met are trying to prevent the vigil for Sarah Everard:

Police seeking to block Reclaim These Streets vigil, say organisers

Group is planning event in south London, close to where Sarah Everard disappeared, to ‘remember all women lost to violence’


Quote
Reclaim These Streets – the group planning to hold a vigil on Saturday evening close to the spot where Sarah Everard disappeared – has said it has been told by police that such action would be unlawful and could bring criminal prosecution and thousands of pounds in fines.

The organisation is planning to hold the socially distanced event on Clapham Common, and at least nine others are planned in towns and cities such as Cambridge, Cardiff, Leeds, Liverpool and St Andrews.

In a statement, Reclaim These Streets said: “Our plan was to hold a short gathering, centred around a minute of silence to remember Sarah Everard and all the women lost to violence.”

However the group said the Metropolitan police had changed its stance, having initially been supportive. Its statement said: “The Metropolitan Police … stated that the vigil would be unlawful, that their ‘hands are tied’ by the Covid-19 regulations and that, as organisers, we could face tens of thousands of pounds in fixed penalty notices and criminal prosecution under the Serious Crimes Act.”

The Met said in a statement late on Thursday: “We understand the public’s strength of feeling and are aware of the statement issued by Reclaim These Streets with regard to a planned vigil for Sarah Everard in Clapham Common this weekend.

“We remain in discussion with the organisers about this event in light of the current Covid regulations.”

Harriet Harman said she had written to the Met to back the event, adding: “Parliament has not specifically acted to constrain the right to demonstrate, so long as social distancing is observed this vigil will be perfectly lawful.”

The Labour MP also said she planned to attend the one-hour vigil on Saturday, according to Reclaim These Streets.

The organisation’s lawyers have written to the force challenging its interpretation of coronavirus legislation when taken together with the Human Rights Act.

It reached its crowdfunding target of £30,000 to cover legal costs shortly before 10.30pm on Thursday, with donations continuing to pour in.

In a statement, the group said: “Should the judge decide in our favour, the Clapham vigil will be allowed to go ahead.

“Should the judge decide against us, we may be liable for the Metropolitan police’s costs of up to £30,000.

“We will also be forced to cancel the vigil, and no women across England will be able to assemble to assert their rights.

“If we win the judgment, the money raised will be donated to a women’s charity.

“By forcing us to cancel the Reclaim These Streets vigil, the Metropolitan police will be silencing thousands of women like us who want to honour Sarah’s memory and stand up for our right to feel safe on our streets.”

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/11/public-vigil-for-sarah-everard-would-be-unlawful-says-met-police



The piece of shit Home Secretary is planning to make the anti-protest laws permanent post Covid.

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #52 on: March 12, 2021, 08:15:45 am »
That is a very powerful post Sian.

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #53 on: March 12, 2021, 08:23:36 am »
The scumbag Met are trying to prevent the vigil for Sarah Everard:

Police seeking to block Reclaim These Streets vigil, say organisers

Group is planning event in south London, close to where Sarah Everard disappeared, to ‘remember all women lost to violence’


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/11/public-vigil-for-sarah-everard-would-be-unlawful-says-met-police



The piece of shit Home Secretary is planning to make the anti-protest laws permanent post Covid.

Its tough one this, while I fully support anyone holding a vigil and bringing attention to the way women are being treated, but we're still in the middle of a lockdown where unnecessary travel is illegal and this kind of mass gathering is illegal. If they let this go, they've got to let every other one go too.

The post covid world is a worry, but thats for another thread.
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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #54 on: March 12, 2021, 09:00:15 am »
Sian your OP was very moving and a timely reminder to all men , it is all well knowing “I am not like that” but our challenge is to change the behaviour of others and bring our youth up to know all of the situations you outlined are unacceptable. Even 40 years later I can remember waiting for a bus from the jolly miller where a similar aged teenage girl also waited and her freaking out when we both happened to get off at Taggart Avenue. As a 17 year old that sent me a clear picture of how females felt vulnerable on a daily basis and I have always been aware of any behaviour that could be considered worrying and changed accordingly, crossing the road, going a different way or whatever it takes to alleviate someone else’s concerns. I am proud to have brought my two boys up to behave properly and treat everyone with respect, your post deserves to be in the archive of important posts not to be missed.

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #55 on: March 12, 2021, 09:05:28 am »
Thanks for sharing Sian. I read a statistic earlier that 94% of 18-24 yr old women have been sexually harrassed, and the figure is 80% for women of all ages. Absolutely horrifying, but also not really unexpected given our lived experiences. Chances are most women who post here have experienced some sort of harrassment or unwanted attention from men. Chances are most of us have let it slide... "he's only having a laugh", "why are you so uptight?", "take it as a complement"... ::)

What do we reckon the most shocking aspect of the Sarah Everard story is? Is it a woman walking alone at night being attacked, or is it the "elite police officer" attacker? Feels like the latter to me. Feels like that's what makes it so newsworthy. Maybe I'm a cynic, but I don't think so.

RIP Sarah.
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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #56 on: March 12, 2021, 09:12:30 am »
Thanks for sharing Sian. I read a statistic earlier that 94% of 18-24 yr old women have been sexually harrassed, and the figure is 80% for women of all ages. Absolutely horrifying, but also not really unexpected given our lived experiences. Chances are most women who post here have experienced some sort of harrassment or unwanted attention from men. Chances are most of us have let it slide... "he's only having a laugh", "why are you so uptight?", "take it as a complement"... ::)

What do we reckon the most shocking aspect of the Sarah Everard story is? Is it a woman walking alone at night being attacked, or is it the "elite police officer" attacker? Feels like the latter to me. Feels like that's what makes it so newsworthy. Maybe I'm a cynic, but I don't think so.

RIP Sarah.

You're correct in that it only became so prominent in the news once his arrest had been confirmed and they announced he was a police officer. I had seen bits on social media and about the search for her, but it only went stratospheric once he was confirmed as a police officer.

Which is wrong really. I can't remember who it was, but I saw someone write that it's almost accepted that this sort of incident will happen, and that's the most depressing thing. It's taken him being a police officer for it to really become a much bigger thing in the public conscious. The only good thing that has come from it is the sharing of other women's experiences such as Sian here, others on Twitter and on Reddit. It's been met with some pushback by some typically insensitive and ignorant males, but it feels like there are conversations happening and some men are learning more, which can only help, hopefully.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2021, 09:14:42 am by Hij »
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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #57 on: March 12, 2021, 09:15:54 am »
This video must be shared and spread more and more

https://twitter.com/AnnaCollinson/status/1369972777403506689?s=19

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #58 on: March 12, 2021, 09:23:38 am »
Thanks for sharing Sian. I read a statistic earlier that 94% of 18-24 yr old women have been sexually harrassed, and the figure is 80% for women of all ages. Absolutely horrifying, but also not really unexpected given our lived experiences. Chances are most women who post here have experienced some sort of harrassment or unwanted attention from men. Chances are most of us have let it slide... "he's only having a laugh", "why are you so uptight?", "take it as a complement"... ::)

What do we reckon the most shocking aspect of the Sarah Everard story is? Is it a woman walking alone at night being attacked, or is it the "elite police officer" attacker? Feels like the latter to me. Feels like that's what makes it so newsworthy. Maybe I'm a cynic, but I don't think so.

RIP Sarah.

I mean, yeah. I didn't include it in the post but I've been given dog's abuse before when I've said no to men just walking up to me in the street while I'm minding my own business either asking me for my number, or trying to give me theirs. You say no and you get called an "uptight c*nt".

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #59 on: March 12, 2021, 09:26:55 am »
Thanks for sharing Sian. I read a statistic earlier that 94% of 18-24 yr old women have been sexually harrassed, and the figure is 80% for women of all ages. Absolutely horrifying, but also not really unexpected given our lived experiences. Chances are most women who post here have experienced some sort of harrassment or unwanted attention from men. Chances are most of us have let it slide... "he's only having a laugh", "why are you so uptight?", "take it as a complement"... ::)

What do we reckon the most shocking aspect of the Sarah Everard story is? Is it a woman walking alone at night being attacked, or is it the "elite police officer" attacker? Feels like the latter to me. Feels like that's what makes it so newsworthy. Maybe I'm a cynic, but I don't think so.

RIP Sarah.

I think it is this part too. to find out that it is a Police officer they arrested, you're supposed to be able to trust the police.

I'm trying to find the right way to put this. While we don't accept that women get attacked, we're not surprised anymore, in the same way that when a teenager gets stabbed to death, its "oh its another one". I don't know why we aren't outraged each time. Maybe for me its what I've grown up with from being a kid, the Black Panther and Leslie Whittle, Sutcliffe was huge news, Rachel Nickell and all the other women murdered by strangers. I just don't know.

We are an angry society though and we do need to look at and address how we bring up our sons and why they think it is OK to abuse women, what is causing all this?. I will try as hard as I can to bring my two up to respect women, to know its not acceptable to hit/abuse/bully a woman, that no matter how horny you are, no means no.
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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #60 on: March 12, 2021, 09:46:41 am »
Thanks for posting this Sian. Very powerful and something that isn't addressed or focused on nearly enough

As a man myself I will never understand how these things feel, I can only express my disgust that it happens and try to learn as much as I can to ensure I am never someone who knowingly makes a women feel in an uncomfortable or vulnerable position and ensure to act when I see other men doing things that put women in these positions.

Having been raised by a single mum and mostly having women around i've always had a vastly different viewpoint on women to my friends and the males around me. I spent my life actively avoiding disrespecting women as much as possible as I saw the comments and harrassment my mum got while I was growing up. There's a huge problem with it being instilled into young men that so many absurd things are okay and just what boys/men do. It needs to become normal to teach better behaviours and values, no one should be made to feel victimised or inferior by any other race, religion or sex.

I've lost count of the amount of times on nights out i've seen women getting harrassed and making it clear they aren't interested isn't deemed enough and the man continues. The scary thing is, even with helping... sometimes you have to be wary. My uncle lives in another part of the country and when stepping in to defend a woman being abused by her boyfriend in public, my uncle was promptly stabbed in the throat! I've tried to do all I can to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem stepping in pretending to be a close friend of girls I see needing help and it's a reflection of the society we live in that these things are even necessary. A lot more needs to be done to protect women from the countless scenarios that can leave them in vulnerable positions, it's not good enough to put the onus on the victims.

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #61 on: March 12, 2021, 10:03:58 am »
Thanks for posting this Sian. Very powerful and something that isn't addressed or focused on nearly enough

As a man myself I will never understand how these things feel, I can only express my disgust that it happens and try to learn as much as I can to ensure I am never someone who knowingly makes a women feel in an uncomfortable or vulnerable position and ensure to act when I see other men doing things that put women in these positions.

Having been raised by a single mum and mostly having women around i've always had a vastly different viewpoint on women to my friends and the males around me. I spent my life actively avoiding disrespecting women as much as possible as I saw the comments and harrassment my mum got while I was growing up. There's a huge problem with it being instilled into young men that so many absurd things are okay and just what boys/men do. It needs to become normal to teach better behaviours and values, no one should be made to feel victimised or inferior by any other race, religion or sex.

I've lost count of the amount of times on nights out i've seen women getting harrassed and making it clear they aren't interested isn't deemed enough and the man continues. The scary thing is, even with helping... sometimes you have to be wary. My uncle lives in another part of the country and when stepping in to defend a woman being abused by her boyfriend in public, my uncle was promptly stabbed in the throat! I've tried to do all I can to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem stepping in pretending to be a close friend of girls I see needing help and it's a reflection of the society we live in that these things are even necessary. A lot more needs to be done to protect women from the countless scenarios that can leave them in vulnerable positions, it's not good enough to put the onus on the victims.

While I'm obviously sorry about your uncle, getting stabbed in the throat isn't a normal occurrance.

I've stepped in several times when a woman was being assaulted and I would again. Once or twice I've stepped in with members from this very forum.

On occasion the woman actually sides with their partner and it's then you need to step away. Other times they are grateful.

It's very rare that it leads to violence and a short intervention in my experience is enough to let the woman get away.
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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #62 on: March 12, 2021, 10:33:21 am »
Great OP Sian.

I don't think its the wrong thing to say, I'd to compare it with the BLM situation. Men mustn't see this through the lens of the 'white man' position. You've got to understand what you don't experience and indeed what your actions may cause. That's not castigating all men, it's a call for empathy.

RIP Sarah.

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #63 on: March 12, 2021, 10:43:28 am »
Just makes you sit up and take notice of what you thought was fun in school was a horror moment for a young woman. Still remember our last day in secondary school back in the late 80s where the whole class headed off to the football pitches for a game of footie, drink, smoke, or just sat around chatting with friends about the summer ahead. One thing led to another where a couple of guys grabbed another lad and tried to pull his boxers over his head pretty much. Stupid shyte as next thing another lad was caught then the next before a dozen lads had their boxers torn. A couple of female classmates were there (mostly boys school) and in stitches at what was going on, encouraging it even and before you knew it some of the lads turned on them and said you are next. I still remember two lads grabbed the first girl and she let out such a scream it stopped everyone in their tracks. What was just a 'joke' suddenly dawned on everyone that we had just crossed a line and the atmosphere went from jovial to sincere apologies as she was in tears. I also remember a couple of the lads were virtually in tears too when they were picked on and what was suppose to be a brilliant day probably ended up as one of their worse in school.

Its an awful world we can live in at times where someone cant walk home without fear of who is walking behind them. If given a chance facetime someone as you walk and make sure the person behind knows he was seen by your friend. I have no problem with someone doing that to me if I was walking behind them as when you see stuff like this on the news about Sarah, every woman out there today is thinking twice about their walk this evening.
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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #64 on: March 12, 2021, 10:44:52 am »
When younger, my mum was flashed at and followed home.  She was lucky nothing worse happened.

I saw so much harrassment at school and during my early clubbing days.  It was pretty shocking!

I've also been to court as a witness, when I stepped between a bloke putting his hand around the throat of his gf. 
« Last Edit: March 12, 2021, 10:48:23 am by Red-Soldier »

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #65 on: March 12, 2021, 10:45:29 am »
I stopped once a few years back and a girl had broken down in a mini.

I pulled over to make sure she was OK and she looked terrified and started shouting and me and telling me to fuck off..

Nothing really you can do. I just said "Fair enough, but I was just trying to help."

Got in the car and drove off. Not sure there is anything else you can do in that situation.
Hope she got the AA or someone to turn up.
In that situation I think you probably did the right thing, provided you left without escalating the situation and didn't come over as all entitled which would be the reaction of a lot of men I suspect.

In general though, there is a huge amount that men can do in terms of changing attitudes and creating a less misogynistic society. The onus is completely on us as men to do it; we are all responsible in some way for the experiences outlined in the OP, whether it takes the form of direct abuse or things often dismissed as 'changing room banter' that creates a milieu in which more severe forms of harassment are enabled.

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #66 on: March 12, 2021, 10:55:19 am »
So much I want to post but not on my phone.

Thank you for sharing your darkest experiences Sian and thank you guys for realising how we sometimes feel due to your actions, or inaction.

RIP Sarah

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #67 on: March 12, 2021, 10:56:18 am »
In that situation I think you probably did the right thing, provided you left without escalating the situation and didn't come over as all entitled which would be the reaction of a lot of men I suspect.

In general though, there is a huge amount that men can do in terms of changing attitudes and creating a less misogynistic society. The onus is completely on us as men to do it; we are all responsible in some way for the experiences outlined in the OP, whether it takes the form of direct abuse or things often dismissed as 'changing room banter' that creates a milieu in which more severe forms of harassment are enabled.

A big thing for me is lads holding their mates to account. After I finally left my abusive ex, I bumped into a mutual friend of ours (who I trusted at the time) and we had some drinks and I ended up telling him everything that happened - he said he was disgusted, shocked, and the next day he was tagging my ex in Facebook posts and having a laugh with him like nothing ever happened.

Or, like, every time a guy's hassled me on a night out and one of his mates has awkwardly come up to me afterwards to quietly apologise, looking over his shoulder the whole time. I honestly appreciate it, mate, but you need to be talking to him more than you need to be talking to me.

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #68 on: March 12, 2021, 10:57:35 am »
I know someone who was good mates with Sarah, they are obviously devestated.  Just an awful thing and it's right the bad attention us men are getting. Yes it's not all of us. But these things have to stop.
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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #69 on: March 12, 2021, 11:01:20 am »
While I'm obviously sorry about your uncle, getting stabbed in the throat isn't a normal occurrance.

I've stepped in several times when a woman was being assaulted and I would again. Once or twice I've stepped in with members from this very forum.

On occasion the woman actually sides with their partner and it's then you need to step away. Other times they are grateful.

It's very rare that it leads to violence and a short intervention in my experience is enough to let the woman get away.

My Dad used to do the doors in town. he was doing an easy gig at the Philharmonic, when this couple started arguing, next thing the bloke is punching fuck out of his G/F, proper battering her. My Dad goes in grabs the fella, quickly into an armlock and starts marching him out. Next thing he feels someone jump on his back and fingers go into his eye, so he naturally reacts and elbows his attacker straight in the face. It was the G/F!! She ended up with a broken nose. My Dad was lost for words.

Over the years we've been out and had to step in, I've had girls come up to me and ask is it OK to pretend she is with me as some c*nt is harassing her. There was a few of us out one night in Southport and this one pissed up lad ended up getting quite a few digs and dragged outside as he just wouldn't leave this one girl alone. Its bad to think that if he won't walk away from 4 or 5 lads, what would he do if he got her on her own?
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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #70 on: March 12, 2021, 11:02:18 am »
In that situation I think you probably did the right thing, provided you left without escalating the situation and didn't come over as all entitled which would be the reaction of a lot of men I suspect.

In general though, there is a huge amount that men can do in terms of changing attitudes and creating a less misogynistic society. The onus is completely on us as men to do it; we are all responsible in some way for the experiences outlined in the OP, whether it takes the form of direct abuse or things often dismissed as 'changing room banter' that creates a milieu in which more severe forms of harassment are enabled.


No as soon as I got out I could see she was scared and defensive, so as I said, I just said I was trying to help and got back in the car.

I actually looked out for police cars on the way home as I would have let them know there was a girl in distress, but didn't see any.

I'd say the majority of men aren't colossal bellends, but the minority (as in everything) let everyone down.
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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #71 on: March 12, 2021, 11:04:49 am »
A big thing for me is lads holding their mates to account. After I finally left my abusive ex, I bumped into a mutual friend of ours (who I trusted at the time) and we had some drinks and I ended up telling him everything that happened - he said he was disgusted, shocked, and the next day he was tagging my ex in Facebook posts and having a laugh with him like nothing ever happened.

Or, like, every time a guy's hassled me on a night out and one of his mates has awkwardly come up to me afterwards to quietly apologise, looking over his shoulder the whole time. I honestly appreciate it, mate, but you need to be talking to him more than you need to be talking to me.

Absolutely agree. Because of this topic was speaking to my wife yesterday and she related an experience where a group of lads hassled her at Lime Street and one of them grabbed her with the rest looking on an laughing.

For me, if you are with a group of lads and one of you does something and the rest do nothing then you're as bigger c*nt as the dickhead that did it. I can't even begin to understand the cowardly shithouseness of some ballbag that would stand there watching while their mate was being a gobshite.
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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #72 on: March 12, 2021, 11:08:11 am »
I'd say the majority of men aren't colossal bellends, but the minority (as in everything) let everyone down.

When this shit is happening to you and most women you know  - to varying degrees - on an almost daily basis, it's hard to believe it's a minority even though that's probably (hopefully) the case. One of the problems is that every time a case like this comes up, or every time something happens that makes women at large speak about their experiences, it's always met with cries of "not all men". I wish people would just, like, listen to us instead.

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #73 on: March 12, 2021, 11:31:01 am »
My mate is a journalist and was outside the police station they think he was at. Three ambulances turned up and one left with a police convoy. Not confirmed he was in it though.

Sorry to mix in the discussion of the case, with the more valuable wider discussion. Could almost do with two different threads.
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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #74 on: March 12, 2021, 11:33:34 am »
When this shit is happening to you and most women you know  - to varying degrees - on an almost daily basis, it's hard to believe it's a minority even though that's probably (hopefully) the case. One of the problems is that every time a case like this comes up, or every time something happens that makes women at large speak about their experiences, it's always met with cries of "not all men". I wish people would just, like, listen to us instead.
Similar with the BLM/ all lives matter thing - I think it's because people look to, consciously or subconsciously, absolve themselves of any responsibility. We automatically try to minimise the affect abuses have on people whether it's "well she was wearing a short skirt" to excuse sexual harassment or "well he was a petty criminal" to excuse the racist murder of a black man. I guess it's a sort of survival instinct where you don't want to go against what you (possibly wrongly) assume to be the position of the herd, and until men are consistently challenged by other men it is hard to see the situation changing.

Hopefully this incident will help bring about a national conversation about how men can be empowered to challenge other men who they know are acting out of line. Let's be honest about it: we all know the ones who do it and we have all made excuses of one kind of another for it (nb: I'm not talking about kidnap and murder, obviously, I'm talking about the micro-aggressions or worse than can be dismissed as 'banter' but are actually deeply damaging to our society.

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #75 on: March 12, 2021, 11:36:47 am »
It's true to say that if Shankly had told us to invade Poland we'd be queuing up 10 deep all the way from Anfield to the Pier Head.

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #76 on: March 12, 2021, 11:38:48 am »
While I'm obviously sorry about your uncle, getting stabbed in the throat isn't a normal occurrance.

I've stepped in several times when a woman was being assaulted and I would again. Once or twice I've stepped in with members from this very forum.

On occasion the woman actually sides with their partner and it's then you need to step away. Other times they are grateful.

It's very rare that it leads to violence and a short intervention in my experience is enough to let the woman get away.

Oh 1000%, i'm not saying at all its a normal occurance. I do feel however its sad that some people harrassing another person will turn their aggression on anyone who gets involved, i've seen girls had aggression directed towards them when they're helping their actual friend who is being harrassed. People need to educate their friends, family members and children on what is and isn't appropriate.

It may be a rarity to be attacked while trying to defend someone but it's still frustrating that it does happen. I step in whenever I see the opportunity to help someone who is cornered, afraid, intimidated or being harrassed and the chances of it getting violent may be slim but it will always remain at the back of my mind as a possibility, no matter how slim the chances are that it occurs. It doesn't ever outright deter me, but helping someone should NEVER lead to violence from the person guilty of harrassment. I'd say sometimes stepping away when the woman sides with her partner is also a risk, some abused women are scared what their partner will do and would rather take the brunt of the abuse than let it move to someone else, they need help too. Its a case by case thing but sometimes it can be the difference between something spilling over into a much more serious incident, I say this based on incidents i've seen or have been involved in and hearing how some of these incidents escalate you would be suprised what can happen when stepping away was the choice taken

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #77 on: March 12, 2021, 11:42:41 am »
Similar with the BLM/ all lives matter thing - I think it's because people look to, consciously or subconsciously, absolve themselves of any responsibility. We automatically try to minimise the affect abuses have on people whether it's "well she was wearing a short skirt" to excuse sexual harassment or "well he was a petty criminal" to excuse the racist murder of a black man. I guess it's a sort of survival instinct where you don't want to go against what you (possibly wrongly) assume to be the position of the herd, and until men are consistently challenged by other men it is hard to see the situation changing.

Hopefully this incident will help bring about a national conversation about how men can be empowered to challenge other men who they know are acting out of line. Let's be honest about it: we all know the ones who do it and we have all made excuses of one kind of another for it (nb: I'm not talking about kidnap and murder, obviously, I'm talking about the micro-aggressions or worse than can be dismissed as 'banter' but are actually deeply damaging to our society.

This is the thing that does annoy me slightly about this. The assumption that men don't step in now and that they need to change their behaviour to start stepping in in future or speaking out or try and stop things happening.

There are plenty of men that do step in and always have and always will.

To be honest I wouldn't be friends with someone that wouldn't.

I accept that there are men that don't and that there are men that can do better when they see stuff, but plenty already do and will continue to do so.
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #78 on: March 12, 2021, 11:44:21 am »
Absolutely agree. Because of this topic was speaking to my wife yesterday and she related an experience where a group of lads hassled her at Lime Street and one of them grabbed her with the rest looking on an laughing.

For me, if you are with a group of lads and one of you does something and the rest do nothing then you're as bigger c*nt as the dickhead that did it. I can't even begin to understand the cowardly shithouseness of some ballbag that would stand there watching while their mate was being a gobshite.
I agree with much of what you say but I'm not sure this language is particularly helpful as it just feeds into a very unhealthy view of masculinity. For every man there will be a situation where he will not intervene, whether it's due to a sense of loyalty or just numbers. By describing this as cowardice doesn't really move the conversation along; we need to make the problem behaviour socially and culturally unacceptable so that physical intervention is not necessary because an unwritten social contract is in place.

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Re: Sarah Everard
« Reply #79 on: March 12, 2021, 11:47:49 am »
This is the thing that does annoy me slightly about this. The assumption that men don't step in now and that they need to change their behaviour to start stepping in in future or speaking out or try and stop things happening.

There are plenty of men that do step in and always have and always will.

To be honest I wouldn't be friends with someone that wouldn't.

I accept that there are men that don't and that there are men that can do better when they see stuff, but plenty already do and will continue to do so.

Andy, you're taking the thread in a direction and using language that really isn't necessary and is almost like 'well I've covered my back'.

As a gender we have to do a lot, lot better.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.