Topic: COVID-19:VERIFIED news sources, 0 politishit, 0 CONSPIRACY SHITE

[west_london_red]

A basic question that I know someone on here will be able to answer in a way I'll understand:
Who does the UK government owe the Covid debt to? Did we borrow the funds from elsewhere or did we print it? If the latter, why do we have to pay it back?

The debt is the same as the rest of our National debt, so borrowed from other countries, pension funds, insurance companies etc as well as NS&I.

Where it gets complicated, is some of the money printed as part of QE is used to buy government debt, but the BoE doesn’t buy it from the government, it buy the debt second hand. What I don’t know is if the government as the debtor pays interest to the BoE as the debt holder, but the BoE is a significant owner of government debt, if not the largest single owner.

[west_london_red]

Vaccinations seem to have slowed down today compared to the last 3-4 days, 100k down on the peak.

[Lee1-6Liv]

Vaccinations seem to have slowed down today compared to the last 3-4 days, 100k down on the peak.

You would hope it is because it was the weekend and not due to any shortages.

[Wabaloolah]

Vaccinations seem to have slowed down today compared to the last 3-4 days, 100k down on the peak.

There was an issue with some of the batches of vaccinations allocated to Wales (26000 failed the checks from the regulator) this may also be an issue with those in England from the same batch I gues?

[west_london_red]

You would hope it is because it was the weekend and not due to any shortages.

I would have expected more vaccinations over the weekdays, especially compared to a Sunday as medical staff will want some time off I’m sure, and GPs and some pharmacies will be shut.

[Wabaloolah]

Well hopefully he uses this week to get everything set up to hit the ground running or he won't be getting 750000 done by the middle of February.

I don't understand why they are sitting on the Pfizer one though, the explanation he gave, mentioned in your original post was odd to say the least

[djahern]

Vaccinations seem to have slowed down today compared to the last 3-4 days, 100k down on the peak.

Number is for a Sunday though, would expect it to drop a little.

[No666]

The debt is the same as the rest of our National debt, so borrowed from other countries, pension funds, insurance companies etc as well as NS&I.

Where it gets complicated, is some of the money printed as part of QE is used to buy government debt, but the BoE doesn’t buy it from the government, it buy the debt second hand. What I don’t know is if the government as the debtor pays interest to the BoE as the debt holder, but the BoE is a significant owner of government debt, if not the largest single owner.

That's what I was wondering -- why can't we cancel that portion of the debt? (For that matter, why can't we cancel developing countries' debt? -- As Zeb will confirm, economics is not my strong point).

[Wabaloolah]

I'm currently in Birmingham. Huge volumes of illegal immigrants around here, some my own friends, who have been living 'underground in the system' for years. Some elderly.

It's worth talking about whether we give an amnesty to all illegal immigrants in this country and give them some form of right to be here - as a one off, so they take the vaccine. Official estimates there could be up to 500,000 to a 1,000,000 illegal immigrants in the country. We simply can't ignore them.

As the Estimates are "Official", I assume you have a source for that which you will be sharing?

[So… Howard Philips]

As the Estimates are "Official", I assume you have a source for that which you will be sharing?

Isn't the Daily Mail the 'Official' organ if the Tory party or us that the Telegraph?

[Wabaloolah]

I'm still hearing of people flying out...are there literally no checks at the airports??

It probably depends on where they are going and whether that country requires a negative test result prior to entry.

Actually your point raises a further question.  If someone is travelling somewhere for let's say a holiday (yes I know) do they still have to provide a negative Test result upon entry to the UK or is that for non-British nationals?  If they have to provide a negative test then how are they going to get that test done?  If they don't then there is still pretty much unfettered access to the country and relying on individuals to self-isolate!

[TepidT2O]

Case numbers are interesting ...


Only 417,000 tests versus 695000 tests on Thursday. That is a vast difference. Is that due to lack of demand for testing because it was a weekend, or was it lack of demand because fewer people are feeling ill? 

Will be interesting to see case numbers and tests tomorrow.

[TSC]

We do, but there are estimated to be anything up to 1.2 million people who we don't actually know are here. Some of these will have been fleeing from the likes of Iraq, Iran and Syria.

No detailed study has been undertaken but last estimate I read had numbers between 800k - 1.2m, which is somewhere between 1.1-1.7% of UK population.

[Babel Time]

Number is for a Sunday though, would expect it to drop a little.

Roughly down a third compared to the peak. Still compares favourably to Germany for example, where the Sunday figures are down 2/3 compared to the weekly peak (94k to 32k).

Have to say the vaccination roll out in the UK has been a relatively positive surprise (so far).

[RainbowFlick]

That's what I was wondering -- why can't we cancel that portion of the debt? (For that matter, why can't we cancel developing countries' debt? -- As Zeb will confirm, economics is not my strong point).

Just a farcical system where we live in a world indebted to ourselves in a system created by ourselves.

[west_london_red]

That's what I was wondering -- why can't we cancel that portion of the debt? (For that matter, why can't we cancel developing countries' debt? -- As Zeb will confirm, economics is not my strong point).

This might help.

https://www.bloombergquint.com/global-economics/u-k-treasury-reaps-13-billion-bonus-from-boe-bond-buying

I’m not completely sure why a central bank can’t just buy all its governments debt and then cancel it, the main issue I can think of is that it would knock confidence in value of the debt, currency and economy, but other then that I can’t think of any other reasons.

[RainbowFlick]

It could be worse far worse as long as we have our health but was a tad annoyed to say the least to hear the government may be writing off international travel. You would think once vaccinations are occurring, people could get approval to travel. Its going to be a logistic nightmare but we have to start somewhere otherwise thousands of businesses relying on international tourists can shut their doors for good.

Can't just let vaccinated British people go swarm around the world though while much of the world is significantly behind us. And we know exactly what British people can be like abroad. Vaccine doesn't stop transmission necessarily and I can imagine the UK-COVID would wreak havoc on hospital infrastructure in many countries.

That said, I'd have assumed the UK might become a 'safe haven' for holiday-goers at some point assuming the rollout goes well and there's no major mutation etc.

Would've been useful if we could do easy EU->EU travel (assuming they're also well-vaccinated) but... alas...

[Guz-kop]

He's a fucking scumbag is hancock

Hospitals not overwhelmed eh?

Bastard

[TepidT2O]

[filopastry]

https://twitter.com/AdamJKucharski/status/1351228542143651840

Adam Kucharski
@AdamJKucharski
Preliminary data from South Africa suggests that the novel variant 501.V2 wasn't recognised by antibodies in 21/44 serum samples collected from people infected in the first wave - worth watching today's presentation for more info & caveats

[Red-Soldier]

That's what I was wondering -- why can't we cancel that portion of the debt? (For that matter, why can't we cancel developing countries' debt? -- As Zeb will confirm, economics is not my strong point).

Debt in regards to nations, is just bullshit!  A countries finances do not need to be run the same as you do with your household!

Every government has the capacity to just print money if they so wish.

Modern monetary theory: the rise of economists who say huge government debt is not a problem

There is no limit to the quantity of money that can be created by a central bank such as the Bank of England. It was different in the days of the gold standard, when central banks were restrained by a promise to redeem their money for gold on demand. But countries moved away from this system in the early part of the 20th century, and central banks nowadays can issue as much money as they like.

This observation is the root of modern monetary theory (MMT), which has attracted new attention during the pandemic, as governments around the world increase spending and public debts become all the more burdensome.

MMT proponents argue that governments can spend as necessary on all desirable causes – reducing unemployment, green energy, better healthcare and education – without worrying about paying for it with higher taxes or increased borrowing. Instead, they can pay using new money from their central bank. The only limit, according to this view, is if inflation starts to rise, in which case the solution is to increase taxes.

https://theconversation.com/modern-monetary-theory-the-rise-of-economists-who-say-huge-government-debt-is-not-a-problem-141495

[Red Beret]

This might help.

https://www.bloombergquint.com/global-economics/u-k-treasury-reaps-13-billion-bonus-from-boe-bond-buying

I’m not completely sure why a central bank can’t just buy all its governments debt and then cancel it, the main issue I can think of is that it would knock confidence in value of the debt, currency and economy, but other then that I can’t think of any other reasons.

Sounds like the financial equivalent of the self pardon. Probably destroys the myth of the capitalism model or some such.  I'm no economist either though, mind.

Can't just let vaccinated British people go swarm around the world though while much of the world is significantly behind us. And we know exactly what British people can be like abroad. Vaccine doesn't stop transmission necessarily and I can imagine the UK-COVID would wreak havoc on hospital infrastructure in many countries.

That said, I'd have assumed the UK might become a 'safe haven' for holiday-goers at some point assuming the rollout goes well and there's no major mutation etc.

Would've been useful if we could do easy EU->EU travel (assuming they're also well-vaccinated) but... alas...

It may be a safe haven in as much as people living within the UK may at least be able to holiday in other parts of the UK safely before the year is out.  Whether that would extend to allowing foreign visitors in with minimal covid screening measures is another matter.

[No666]

This might help.

https://www.bloombergquint.com/global-economics/u-k-treasury-reaps-13-billion-bonus-from-boe-bond-buying

I’m not completely sure why a central bank can’t just buy all its governments debt and then cancel it, the main issue I can think of is that it would knock confidence in value of the debt, currency and economy, but other then that I can’t think of any other reasons.

Thanks, mate. & Red Soldier. My brain is staggering towards understanding.

[[new username under construction]]

Fingers crossed

"The test done is the usual serological test, which is considered the best correlation to how protected we are - and at the moment it looks fantastic," she said. The clues we have are that the vaccinated probably won't be contagious. When we look at the level of antibodies, we found that there are very low viral values and these people are unlikely to be carriers or contagious."

[RainbowFlick]

It may be a safe haven in as much as people living within the UK may at least be able to holiday in other parts of the UK safely before the year is out.  Whether that would extend to allowing foreign visitors in with minimal covid screening measures is another matter.

Fair. It's a bit of a 50/50 I think. This Tory government wouldn't want to be seen as enabling "vaccine passports" (their supporters will see it as a gross infringement of their rights) but at the same time they obviously want the money coming in for the economy. I feel like they'll compromise on this at some point this year and try allow travel corridors to open and some sort of screening / vaccine disclaimer. IMHO it all should be locked off until science is comfortable and hospitals are under significantly less stress. An opportunity to market covid-secure stay-cations imo.

[Thepooloflife]

It probably depends on where they are going and whether that country requires a negative test result prior to entry.

Actually your point raises a further question.  If someone is travelling somewhere for let's say a holiday (yes I know) do they still have to provide a negative Test result upon entry to the UK or is that for non-British nationals?  If they have to provide a negative test then how are they going to get that test done?  If they don't then there is still pretty much unfettered access to the country and relying on individuals to self-isolate!

I think the requirement for a negative test prior to entry to the UK applies to all travellers, including UK nationals - which they have to get done in the country they are travelling from. They also have to provide a completed PLF (Passenger Locater Form) prior to entry to UK, giving details of where they will be self-isolating after entry (even if this is their own home).

[Dr.Kano]

This might help.

https://www.bloombergquint.com/global-economics/u-k-treasury-reaps-13-billion-bonus-from-boe-bond-buying

I’m not completely sure why a central bank can’t just buy all its governments debt and then cancel it, the main issue I can think of is that it would knock confidence in value of the debt, currency and economy, but other then that I can’t think of any other reasons.

I think this is the reason. Think of it as your kid borrows money off you to buy a toy. You say he owes you the money and has to pay it back. He says all my money comes from you in the form of pocket money so you are effectively in debt to yourself. Why can't you just cancel the debt and then we'll both be happy? The reason being it would undermine the whole system and he wouldn't learn anything about financial prudence and responsibility.

If any country starts wiping out its own debt then they are not playing by international rules and other countries won't want to play with them. We'll start to look like a despotic, unstable system.

Anyway, some good news about vaccinations and I feel that our government deserves some credit:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/

[afc tukrish]

If you have joined this form just to repeatedly talk about illegal immigration I'm not sure this is the place for you

Illegal immigration is illegal...

[PaulF]

I think this is the reason. Think of it as your kid borrows money off you to buy a toy. You say he owes you the money and has to pay it back. He says all my money comes from you in the form of pocket money so you are effectively in debt to yourself. Why can't you just cancel the debt and then we'll both be happy? The reason being it would undermine the whole system and he wouldn't learn anything about financial prudence and responsibility.

If any country starts wiping out its own debt then they are not playing by international rules and other countries won't want to play with them. We'll start to look like a despotic, unstable system.

Anyway, some good news about vaccinations and I feel that our government deserves some credit:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/

This. And no institution would lend to you again. Printing money reduces the value of existing debt too so that's not a way out.

[lamad]

Can we at least move away from discussing it with the same discompassionate and deliberately exclusionary/dehumanising language that the right wing use to stoke up nationalistic differences between people?

No human's existence is illegal. The people being discussed are undocumented migrants.

snip

I always thought the term 'illegal alien' should die a hard and fast death. Totally dehumanising.

[Red Beret]

Fair. It's a bit of a 50/50 I think. This Tory government wouldn't want to be seen as enabling "vaccine passports" (their supporters will see it as a gross infringement of their rights) but at the same time they obviously want the money coming in for the economy. I feel like they'll compromise on this at some point this year and try allow travel corridors to open and some sort of screening / vaccine disclaimer. IMHO it all should be locked off until science is comfortable and hospitals are under significantly less stress. An opportunity to market covid-secure stay-cations imo.

I have a friend who lives in Israel who was supposed to visit the UK/Scotland last July for her first wedding anniversary.  She postponed the trip until April this year and may have to delay it again.  When we looked into things on the .gov website, Israel is certainly not on the "safe corridor" list.  Her only realistic option would be to request a test prior to entering the UK, but even then she and her husband would have to isolate for five days on arrival before getting it; they would have to pay for the test, but the website didn't mention how much it cost.

[John Higgins]

My understanding of the vaccine numbers is that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland numbers are not included as they don’t report weekend figures.

[redbyrdz]

I have a friend who lives in Israel who was supposed to visit the UK/Scotland last July for her first wedding anniversary.  She postponed the trip until April this year and may have to delay it again.  When we looked into things on the .gov website, Israel is certainly not on the "safe corridor" list.  Her only realistic option would be to request a test prior to entering the UK, but even then she and her husband would have to isolate for five days on arrival before getting it; they would have to pay for the test, but the website didn't mention how much it cost.

You need two tests, one three days before travel, and then a second one if you want out of isolation early. You'll have to pay for both privately, costs are about £130-180 afaik. If the country you're going back to has similar rules, you might end up needing four tests.

[AmSeeker]

Vaccinations seem to have slowed down today compared to the last 3-4 days, 100k down on the peak.

Does this have anything to do with Pfizer announcing they are slowing down the vaccines they are giving certain nations (UK being one), whilst they 'reconfigure' their manufacturing.

Or could just be slow Sunday ?

[rob1966]

No detailed study has been undertaken but last estimate I read had numbers between 800k - 1.2m, which is somewhere between 1.1-1.7% of UK population.

Its only a small amount in relation to the population, but its still either side of a million people who won't be getting vaccinated and they need to be. These people came here to make a new life and instead of ignoring them or trying to remove them from the UK, efforts must be made to, as a priority, get them vaccinated. Give them all an amnesty to allow them to live here freely, get jobs, get healthcare etc. They deserve to be protected from this virus, just like anyone else.

[AmSeeker]

Its only a small amount in relation to the population, but its still either side of a million people who won't be getting vaccinated and they need to be. These people came here to make a new life and instead of ignoring them or trying to remove them from the UK, efforts must be made to, as a priority, get them vaccinated. Give them all an amnesty to allow them to live here freely, get jobs, get healthcare etc. They deserve to be protected from this virus, just like anyone else.

Fully agree. What's disappointing is i'm not even seeing this issue being raised anywhere as a cause of concern. Once and for all, we should give a one off amnesty to all illegal immigrants in these truly horrific times - not only for the immigrants themselves, but the general population.

[Red Beret]

You need two tests, one three days before travel, and then a second one if you want out of isolation early. You'll have to pay for both privately, costs are about £130-180 afaik. If the country you're going back to has similar rules, you might end up needing four tests.

Ah, thanks.  I'll pass that information on.  It's something of a moot point at the moment though.  Even with the tests my friend and her husband would have to self isolate in the UK for five days, so unless they could reschedule to travel five days before their actual holiday starts and find a place where they can self isolate then it's not practical for them to travel.

[djahern]

https://twitter.com/AdamJKucharski/status/1351228542143651840

Well that’s not good at all. But unclear from their comments and presentation if they’ve also tested these sera on the older variant. Need a bit more information on it then they’ve provided.

[djahern]

I may have misheard a newscaster on the radio yesterday but any tourism based on international travelers this year is pretty much written off by the government. That pretty much means I have minimum income for two years running. Whoopty Fuckin' Doo

I think the best bet now is to plan to make a travel corridor with Ireland for the summer if rates are sufficiently down in both countries.

Prop up the tourism industries in both countries, keep people away from travelling to Spain etc. Then hope for decent weather

[killer-heels]

EasyJet bosses saying that holiday bookings are up significantly. Crazy that people feel confident, I imagine that they must get some guaranteed money back deals?