Author Topic: COVID-19:VERIFIED news sources, 0 politishit, 0 CONSPIRACY SHITE  (Read 3458745 times)

Offline jepovic

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SO if 20-25% Swiss pop have had it, ie 1.9 million, and deaths from Swiss currently at 1,500, that give a Mortality Rate of 0.08%. Can that be anyway near right?
No, then you have to think about the delays in people dying and in the reporting of the deaths. If that delay is 3-4 weeks, then you're basically back at the 10% in early April again - so about twice as high death rate.

Also, this was Geneva, not all of Switzerland. I don't know the number of deaths there, but major cities have generally been worse off.

The famous 0.8% in the Imperial report seems way off though, but I think pretty much everyone else agrees on that now.

Offline jepovic

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3% of 10% is 0.3%. How’ve you got from 10% to 25% in four weeks at 3% growth per week? You’re adding 3%, which would mean 3% of the population are being infected each week. Which is it?

Show your workings...
I meant 3 percentage points increase per week, which is what the report states. So 10% at April 24th, which were people that were actually infected at least 4 weeks from today (probably more). 10 + 4 * 3 = 22 percentage points.
That would assume that the infection rate is constant (R = 1), although it's probably a bit lower. But the delay is probably longer as well.

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Also, this was Geneva, not all of Switzerland. I don't know the number of deaths there, but major cities have generally been worse off.

Geneva is Switzerlands most diverse city as well, with a lot of foreign residents (almost 50% of the population), and a huge amount of international travel for a city of its size.

Offline El Denzel Pepito

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464 reported hospital deaths in the UK in the last 24 hours.

383 in England
59 in Scotland
18 in Wales
4 in Northern Ireland

Figures per devolved nation's own reporting. DHSC will confirm a full UK death-in-all-settings toll later on. Likely to be over 700 for the first time in a week.

Offline jepovic

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Yeah, other than the shortcut I took you picked up on, I'm not sure I agree with that take much at all. 10% after peak doesn't strike me as being particularly high, even allowing for further infections from it since. Main thrust of paper is that vast majority still haven't had it and so changing eg lockdown needs to take that into account.
Sure, I agree with that. Now is too soon, but in a few months it should be realistic. Herd immunity is months away, not years, like it or not. This is for Geneva obviously, not in general. Looking at the deaths UK should not be very far off though. Countries like Germany are different, with just a tiny fraction of the population infected.
« Last Edit: May 7, 2020, 03:39:57 pm by jepovic »

Offline Zeb

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Sure, I agree with that. Now is too soon, but in a few months it should be realistic. Herd immunity is months away, not years, like it or not. This is for Geneva obviously, not in general. Looking at the deaths UK should not be very far off though.

It's the point on Geneva I disagree with. If Geneva returned to conditions leading to peak number of cases, sure, that'd be true. But how true is it when those conditions don't apply? It'd be like trying to establish how many would be likely to die across a population but missing that the highest risk group isn't proportionately represented.
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I’ve been told by HMRC that I’m eligible for any help under the self employed scheme so I’m one that falls through the cracks.Makes me wonder why I bother hoping the government will do the right thing by us all.

Offline J_Kopite

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We had the warning signs from Italy and Spain. The footage on the BBC showing the disaster in Spanish care homes where death was a daily occurrence. And we all tutted and said we would never be like them.  Our govt only started counting deaths in care homes the other day. They still haven’t got adequate PPE or testing for the care sector.
As for self flagellate? This govt have walked into this disaster with their eyes shut. Lies about PPE -“it’s a logistics problem” lies about its herd immunity strategy, lies about care deaths. The rest of Europe was locking down, Scotland ffs shut it’s schools because they realised this bunch of clowns in the cabinet were dithering, not wanting to upset the middle class voter. They didn’t shut pubs until after Ireland cancelled St Paddy’s  day, in case  Tim from Wetherspoons or his customers were upset. We even had a “last night of the drunks” with the media building up to the lockdown and running stories about how people were going to enjoy a last pissup.
What did we have as a strategy? Wash your hands whilst singing God Save The Queen! And sneeze into your elbow!

Sorry to sound off, but you sound like a daily mail editorial

I don't buy that we are instrically worse than many other countries

Greece have managed it better than Johnson. Greece ffs. But lets not self flagellate our national response. Because only 50k have died.


Seeing as you are talking about the government when I said "the general populace", I suggest reading my posts with a more careful eye next time.

Online TSC

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Science and Technology committee today.  Still on.  Few points;

‘R’ number is currently between 0.75-1, so higher than the figure as per government daily briefing (think 0.65 was mentioned).  Contribution to this high figure is the high figure in healthcare settings.

ONS will release data next week regarding prevalence of covid-19 in the UK community.  When asked by the chair why this data wasn’t released until now, response confirmed government didn’t request this data until late April.

Chair was also critical of Public Health England for withholding requested info.  Can’t recall what this info related to.

Offline Peabee

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I meant 3 percentage points increase per week, which is what the report states. So 10% at April 24th, which were people that were actually infected at least 4 weeks from today (probably more). 10 + 4 * 3 = 22 percentage points.
That would assume that the infection rate is constant (R = 1), although it's probably a bit lower. But the delay is probably longer as well.

Ok cheers, thought you meant that but you said “growth”.  :)
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Online Thepooloflife

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Spain in April started announcing plans to start reducing lockdown in late May, they had over 6000 new cases on 23rd April. Their weekly average was less than ours admittedly by about 1000 a day.

And we are not showing over 6000 cases a day either. We had over 6000 yesterday and two days out of the week before that. The week by week average is closer to 5000.

Don't know who's advocating just lifting lockdown, i'm certainly not. I do think that announcing when in the future a reduction in lockdown measure will begin is not only fine but in the countries interests to actually help people keep following what restrictions are already in place until they do start to reduce restrictions. If there are signs of a reduction in restrictions people will be more likely to stay at home until then. "You say stay at home until we say you can go out" and offer no insight as to when that may be people will get restless and flout the rules more and more.

You have to get a plan in place for when we are ready to start reducing restrictions.
I agree, and the indications are, and Johnson has already said, that he's announcing his 'road map' on Sunday with a possible easing of restrictions from next week. We know from media reports that the govt are going to remove the slogan....'Stay at Home....etc' this weekend in favour of something else for the 'Phase 2' - which implies that the message to stay home is not as important anymore and that some people might regard that as....' ah, okay, we don't have to stay home anymore' and treating it (wrongly perhaps) as status 'normal'. I'm not gonna quibble about 1000 difference in the number of new cases - the point being that with increased testing, this figure is bound to increase. But, also that some of those will get ill, some seriously and with some still dying.
I'm not advocating lockdown indefinitely - initially, the sort of measures other countries have begun with would be alright.

Offline El Denzel Pepito

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The slogan is supposedly set to change to #StaySafeSaveLives, based on a few tweets from Government accounts.

Cue millions of people going out and about disregarding social distancing with going round mates' house, house parties etc. I'd have a bit more faith in the public, but this happened during the lockdown when the messaging was stricter... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-52221688

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

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The slogan is supposedly set to change to #StaySafeSaveLives, based on a few tweets from Government accounts.

Cue millions of people going out and about disregarding social distancing with going round mates' house, house parties etc. I'd have a bit more faith in the public, but this happened during the lockdown when the messaging was stricter... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-52221688

Faith in the public?

As a generalization they're thick as shit, other wise we'd still be in the EU and have a Labour government.
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Online Thepooloflife

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The slogan is supposedly set to change to #StaySafeSaveLives, based on a few tweets from Government accounts.

Cue millions of people going out and about disregarding social distancing with going round mates' house, house parties etc. I'd have a bit more faith in the public, but this happened during the lockdown when the messaging was stricter... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-52221688
Exactly mate - madness.

Offline filopastry

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The thing is if you don't trust the public to follow the guidance, then the guidance is pretty meaningless in the first place.

Personally I don't really have an issue with relaxing some of the areas where you expect there to be least transmission, at least it gives people a steer on things they can do without creating too much risk, while the longer a realtively strict lockdown goes on, the less people are going to adhere to it. And they might not necessarily break it in ways that are as relatively safe as spending more time outside while social distancing, at least this tries to give an outlet for the frustration people are feeling.

It's the point on Geneva I disagree with. If Geneva returned to conditions leading to peak number of cases, sure, that'd be true. But how true is it when those conditions don't apply? It'd be like trying to establish how many would be likely to die across a population but missing that the highest risk group isn't proportionately represented.

I saw the German study recently, which put the mortality rate somewhere between about 0.25-0.4%, do we have any idea how the age of that population skewed? Although I suppose even that doesn't tell us too much if there quite a few vulnerable within the population but they weren't exposed to the virus.

Offline Hedley Lamarr

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I’ve been told by HMRC that I’m eligible for any help under the self employed scheme so I’m one that falls through the cracks.Makes me wonder why I bother hoping the government will do the right thing by us all.
We've had a few clients who fall through the cracks. I haven't looked too carefully at the SEISS scheme as it's not my department, but my basic understanding is SE has to make up at least 51% of your income. If you've brought home 20k and 11k of that is through PAYE, the other 9k (profit) through SE, even if that's the second part of the year, well, you're shit out of luck.

Those who became Self Employed around Christmas for example are unlikely to be eligible unless they hit the ground running. It also kinda screws those who have made up expenses to get a Tax refund and those caught up in IR35. Obviously the former you could argue, deserve what they get, the latter could be shafted through some government initiative they've now temporarily abandoned.

Offline Red-Soldier

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Faith in the public?

As a generalization they're thick as shit, other wise we'd still be in the EU and have a Labour government.

You are of course correct.

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

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Personally I don't really have an issue with relaxing some of the areas where you expect there to be least transmission.

I'm 100% in favour of this.
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Offline Qston

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The slogan is supposedly set to change to #StaySafeSaveLives, based on a few tweets from Government accounts.

Cue millions of people going out and about disregarding social distancing with going round mates' house, house parties etc. I'd have a bit more faith in the public, but this happened during the lockdown when the messaging was stricter... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-52221688

Government need to set out clear and concise rules otherwise this will rapidly become a shit show of people gathering. Attempting to get people just to do one thing has been problematic, attempting to do a halfway house will be impossible without clear messaging.
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Online redbyrdz

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Swedish Ambassador Says Stockholm Expected To Reach 'Herd Immunity' In May   ???

https://www.npr.org/2020/04/26/845211085/stockholm-expected-to-reach-herd-immunity-in-may-swedish-ambassador-says?t=1588852133005



These figures about % infected etc are really out of sorts with anywhere else. Sweden never had a full lockdown, but people still stayed home a lot more, there is social distancing, etc. All in all they have probably social distanced as much as countries like the Netherlands or Belgium. Its almost as if they want their people to believe everything is fine, so there's no need to shutdown the economy...



The thing avout the herd immunity figure is also that it depends on R0 without any measures in place.

Herd immunity is 1 - 1/R0. So if R0=4, the herd immunity threshold is 1-1/4 = 75%. If R0=3, its 66%, etc.

One conclusion from that is, if the virus is really more infectious than we think (because cases are much higher), the immunity threshold is higher too. (That is why measels with R0 = 12 needs nearly everyone to be vaccinated to stop it from spreading)

The other side of this is, R is dropping the more people are immune, because there is a higher chance that new contacts have already had the virus. So reaching the immunity threshold is not a linear process.
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Offline vblfc

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I agree, and the indications are, and Johnson has already said, that he's announcing his 'road map' on Sunday with a possible easing of restrictions from next week. We know from media reports that the govt are going to remove the slogan....'Stay at Home....etc' this weekend in favour of something else for the 'Phase 2' - which implies that the message to stay home is not as important anymore and that some people might regard that as....' ah, okay, we don't have to stay home anymore' and treating it (wrongly perhaps) as status 'normal'. I'm not gonna quibble about 1000 difference in the number of new cases - the point being that with increased testing, this figure is bound to increase. But, also that some of those will get ill, some seriously and with some still dying.
I'm not advocating lockdown indefinitely - initially, the sort of measures other countries have begun with would be alright.
The spin and slogans seems to be core to the approach.  Does anyone really buy that stuff? The scientists must cringe through this day after day.
Seems the press' role is to then instantly re-spin the spin with repetitive, negative questions. which is answered by more spin.
Would be good to have some basic sincerity, robust logical content & debate then a calm, systemic way forward.

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

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Government need to set out clear and concise rules otherwise this will rapidly become a shit show of people gathering. Attempting to get people just to do one thing has been problematic, attempting to do a halfway house will be impossible without clear messaging.

Mixed messages already. A couple of weeks ago after re-reading the guidelines I came to the conclusion that half an hour drive followed by 2 hours walk in a remote area (Dartmoor) was fine. As of yesterday Devon and Cornwall police are asking people not to go to the moors and will be patrolling.

 ???
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Offline ShakaHislop

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The thing is if you don't trust the public to follow the guidance, then the guidance is pretty meaningless in the first place.

Personally I don't really have an issue with relaxing some of the areas where you expect there to be least transmission, at least it gives people a steer on things they can do without creating too much risk, while the longer a realtively strict lockdown goes on, the less people are going to adhere to it. And they might not necessarily break it in ways that are as relatively safe as spending more time outside while social distancing, at least this tries to give an outlet for the frustration people are feeling.

I saw the German study recently, which put the mortality rate somewhere between about 0.25-0.4%, do we have any idea how the age of that population skewed? Although I suppose even that doesn't tell us too much if there quite a few vulnerable within the population but they weren't exposed to the virus.

In what way would you relax things? For example, if you open up shops in one part of the country that are closed in the others, there will absolutely be people from other parts of the country who will try their luck and go there, not to mention increased pressure to open those shops in the other parts of the country regardless of whether it is medically/scientifically wise to do so. In short, a regional lifting of the lockdown opens up a can of worms IMO.

Offline Zeb

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I saw the German study recently, which put the mortality rate somewhere between about 0.25-0.4%, do we have any idea how the age of that population skewed? Although I suppose even that doesn't tell us too much if there quite a few vulnerable within the population but they weren't exposed to the virus.

It was proportionate to demography of the area from what I remember (study of Gangelt?). Factor they were looking at with it was the large number of asymptomatic and mild cases which they were picking up, significantly so much that there were questions about whether the test being used was registering false positives (from other similar viruses). Not seen much of anything since though to say either way although size of study meant that every death would alter conclusion quite significantly. Believe the most recent death there has taken estimate from 0.41% to 0.46%. Just checking Drosten's mentions for recent links (and failed) but he's getting grief from people saying 'But you said 0.9%'.
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Online TSC

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Dominic Raab on briefing duty today.  Might have expected Johnson to put in an appearance, but obviously not.

Offline Red-Soldier

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Coronavirus: Is it time to free the healthy from restrictions?

The constant stream of bad news on coronavirus, from the rising number of deaths, to doctors and nurses risking their lives because of a lack of protective equipment has, understandably, caused great anxiety.

That much is clear from the proportion of adults worried about the threat they believe the virus poses to themselves.

Older people are the most concerned, but even among younger age groups the majority believe they are at risk.




But have we got this out of perspective? How much actual risk does coronavirus present?

The people who are most at risk are older people and those with pre-existing health conditions. The overwhelming majority of deaths has been among these groups.

But young people are, of course still, dying - by late April there had been more than 300 deaths among the under-45s.

What is more, there are many more who have been left seriously ill, struggling with the after-effects for weeks.

So how should we interpret that? And what does that mean for post-lockdown life?



Our constant focus on the most negative impacts of the epidemic means we have "lost sight" of the fact the virus causes a mild to moderate illness for many, says Dr Amitava Banerjee, of University College London.

The expert in clinical data science believes it is important not to jump to conclusions about the deaths of younger, seemingly healthy adults. Some could have had health conditions that had not been diagnosed, he says.

But he admits there will be otherwise healthy people who have died - as happens with everything from heart attacks to flu.

In future, we need to stop looking at coronavirus through such a "narrow lens", he says. Instead we should take more account of the indirect costs, such as rising rates of domestic violence in lockdown, mental health problems and the lack of access to health care more generally.
A 'nasty flu' for many

On Sunday Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson is expected to set out how restrictions will be eased in England. All indications are that it will be a very gradual process to keep the rate of transmission of the virus down.

But some believe we do not need to be so draconian.

Edinburgh University and a group of London-based academics published a paper this week arguing restrictions could be lifted quite significantly if the most vulnerable were completely shielded.

That would require the continued isolation of these individuals and the regular testing of their carers - or shielders as the researchers call them.

If we could protect them - and that would require very good access to quick testing and protective equipment - the researchers believe we could lift many restrictions and allow a "controlled" epidemic in the general population.

Good hand-hygiene, isolating when you have symptoms and voluntary social distancing where possible would be needed. But people could return to work, and school - in a matter of months. The majority could even be eating in restaurants and going to cinemas.

For the non-vulnerable population, coronavirus carries no more risk than a "nasty flu", says Prof Mark Woolhouse, an expert in infectious disease who led the research.

"If it wasn't for the fact that it presents such a high risk of severe disease in vulnerable groups, we would never have taken the steps we have and closed down the country.

"If we can shield the vulnerable really well, there is no reason why we cannot lift many of the restrictions in place for others.

"The lockdown has come at a huge economic, social and health cost."

It is, he says, all about getting the balance of risk right.

A risk to live with

It is a point others have made.

Cambridge University statistician Prof Sir David Spiegelhalter has highlighted evidence which shows the risk of dying from coronavirus is very similar to the underlying risk people of all age groups from early 20s upwards have of dying anyway.



His point is that getting it is like packing a year's worth of risk into a short period of time for adults. The younger you are, the lower the risk all round.

For children, as you can see on the graph, the risk from the virus is so small that you might be better off worrying about other things. After the first year of life cancers, accidents and self-harm are the leading causes of death.


Researchers from Stanford University in the US have been trying to count the risk another way - equating it to that which we face from dying while driving.

In the UK, they calculate that those under the age of 65 have faced the same risk over the past few months from coronavirus as they would have faced from driving 185 miles a day - the equivalent of commuting from Swindon to London.


Strip out the under-65s with health conditions - about one in 16 - and the risk is even lower, with deaths in non-vulnerable groups being "remarkably uncommon".

Putting risk in perspective is going to be essential for individuals and decision-makers, the authors suggest.

If we do, we may learn to live with coronavirus. We may have to.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52543692
« Last Edit: May 7, 2020, 05:04:19 pm by Red-Soldier »

Online PeterJM

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We've had a few clients who fall through the cracks. I haven't looked too carefully at the SEISS scheme as it's not my department, but my basic understanding is SE has to make up at least 51% of your income. If you've brought home 20k and 11k of that is through PAYE, the other 9k (profit) through SE, even if that's the second part of the year, well, you're shit out of luck.

Those who became Self Employed around Christmas for example are unlikely to be eligible unless they hit the ground running. It also kinda screws those who have made up expenses to get a Tax refund and those caught up in IR35. Obviously the former you could argue, deserve what they get, the latter could be shafted through some government initiative they've now temporarily abandoned.

Unfortunately for me I was PAYE up until Nov 2018 when I was made redundant whilst also having a small self employed income.They are failing to take into account any changes in people’s circumstances after the end of the 2018/19 tax year.I’m shielding elderly parents so can’t work and now have no help.

Offline ShakaHislop

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Dominic Raab on briefing duty today.  Might have expected Johnson to put in an appearance, but obviously not.

He has to rest before his PR stunt on Sunday.

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Another 5,615 tested positive today.

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

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In what way would you relax things? For example, if you open up shops in one part of the country that are closed in the others, there will absolutely be people from other parts of the country who will try their luck and go there, not to mention increased pressure to open those shops in the other parts of the country regardless of whether it is medically/scientifically wise to do so. In short, a regional lifting of the lockdown opens up a can of worms IMO.

I'm guessing that he doesn't mean geographical areas, could be wrong though.

I think he's referring more to activities, some of which are IMO very safe. Keeping away from my favs so as not to bore/annoy people, take golf or tennis for example,  two of the easiest competitive sports to maintain social distancing. 
« Last Edit: May 7, 2020, 05:04:21 pm by Sudden Death Draft Loser »
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Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Raab really doesn't inspire me with any confidence that this Government has a clue what they're doing.

You might as well put a pint of lager on the stand and leave it at that
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Offline Hedley Lamarr

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Raab really doesn't inspire me with any confidence that this Government has a clue what they're doing.

You might as well put a pint of lager on the stand and leave it at that
He's like the head of an underperforming sales team who has to answer to poor results. A team bonding exercise at wimpy is called for.

Offline jason67

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Mixed messages already. A couple of weeks ago after re-reading the guidelines I came to the conclusion that half an hour drive followed by 2 hours walk in a remote area (Dartmoor) was fine. As of yesterday Devon and Cornwall police are asking people not to go to the moors and will be patrolling.

 ???
Judging by the replies you got yesterday it seems that opening McNasty's and sitting 2cm away from some fat family filling their faces with shite is better than going for a walk with a couple of people in nature.   

But you were deemed as being selfish, what a weird world we live in at the moment.
At last the TRUTH 26th April 2016

Still don't buy the s*n.

Offline filopastry

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In what way would you relax things? For example, if you open up shops in one part of the country that are closed in the others, there will absolutely be people from other parts of the country who will try their luck and go there, not to mention increased pressure to open those shops in the other parts of the country regardless of whether it is medically/scientifically wise to do so. In short, a regional lifting of the lockdown opens up a can of worms IMO.

I think taking away restrictions on going outside as long as social distancing is observed is a relatively straightforward one to try (for groups not deemed at risk), the guidance of being outside once a day for no more than an hour is a bit of a nonsense anyway, I've been doing a 1 and a half hour walk each day for a while now (it takes that long to get me to my step target) and I am very careful to social distance throughout, obviously you could get unlucky and be infected but I really don't think the risks are too high if you are sensible.

If people aren't sensible then it will obviously see increasing infections and be reversed pretty quickly.

Online TSC

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Raab announces ‘R’ level is between 0.5-0.9

Measures announced re a road-map for next stage;

Driven by milestones.
Must meet ‘5’ tests
Any changes will be monitored

Based on ‘Sage’ updates PM will announce plan on Sunday.

Offline UntouchableLuis

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Why do we have to wait until Sunday for this plan? They obviously have it drawn up already.
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Offline Lush is the best medicine...

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Why do we have to wait until Sunday for this plan? They obviously have it drawn up already.
ratings?

Offline Red-Soldier

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Judging by the replies you got yesterday it seems that opening McNasty's and sitting 2cm away from some fat family filling their faces with shite is better than going for a walk with a couple of people in nature.   

But you were deemed as being selfish, what a weird world we live in at the moment.

I agree with him.

I couldn't care less about anything else, apart from being able to go out walking.  I do appreciate different people have other interests though.

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Why do we have to wait until Sunday for this plan? They obviously have it drawn up already.
Because of the bank holiday tomorrow.
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Offline OOS

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Why do we have to wait until Sunday for this plan? They obviously have it drawn up already.

Bank holiday Friday I'd imagine?
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