Author Topic: The barbarity that is Syria  (Read 383343 times)

Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #80 on: June 2, 2013, 09:15:22 pm »
Yes. He achieved what he wanted to do, get rid of the Sovjet Union.

I cannot quite decide if you are just very forgetful or if you have a twin that is sharing your login.

You say ZB is a master strategist who brought down the Soviet Union.

Yorky says that is bullshit. You completely agree.

Then you say ZB is master strategist who brought down the Soviet Union.

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Offline AA1122

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #81 on: June 2, 2013, 10:12:56 pm »
Signs of a follow up from the warning I commented about a few days ago.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/8mKIxc6JX8g" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/8mKIxc6JX8g</a>

I have also seen a video from Twitter of fighting that has spread over to Iraq in Al Anbar province, but, I won't post it here, it is far too gruesome.

I don't know how this conflict is going to end, but, I hope it does soon.
« Last Edit: June 2, 2013, 10:15:50 pm by AA1122 »
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Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #82 on: June 3, 2013, 09:51:52 am »
We seem to have strayed off topic a fair bit here - but that's how life sometimes goes.  :P

Sorry for adding to this straying but I feel that by adding a little history here may help to clarify some of the causes and effects to the historical aspects of where we find ourselves right now with all the major players in and around the Syrian fringe.

There always was - and for the continuance of Capitalism dominating the globe there was a MUST ACHIEVE goal since 1917 the early tacit agreement - and a silent but pre-destined objective - to ensure the ultimate rollback and downfall of the workers' state.
The invasion of the Soviet Union by the western Capitalist nations' armies occurred following the signing of the treaty of Brest-Litovsk in March 1918 - which officially saw the Red Army exiting WW1 - as the fledgling state had no further interest in offering up more Russian victims to the on-going "capitalist" war.

Whilst of course one consequence of this treaty was robbing the Allies of their eastern front Tsarist ally and raising the prospect of a German resurgence, the West was always extremely concerned - and scared - by the establishment of the Worker's State.

 
In what many historians consider to have been a move motivated by the greater fear of the rise of the communist state, western nations siezed the opportunity to intervene in Russia's Civil War on the side of the pro-Tsarist/pro-capitalist White Armies. See the numbers involved in the link below. Prominent among the main players were Czechoslovakia,Britain, Japan,Poland, France, Greece and the USA.

Whilst there could have been some genuine concerns about a possible German re-surgence, it is a barely concealed acknowledgement amongst Europes monarchies and politically capitalist nations that the destruction of the Soviet State - virtually before it barely drew an infantile breath - was a necessity.

Firstly (in the eyes of those monarchies at least)in order to avenge the overthrow and execution of the Russian Royal family - and blood cousins to seven-eighths of Europe's royalty - and secondly, followed far more assiduously in my view, by the capitalist governments fear of the contamination of communism spreading westward. (Already the UK had experienced a taste of left-wing worker muscle-flexing in the Red Clyde shipyards strikes in 1916 - and they didn't fancy more).

That the long-term Western objective - and by any means possible - was the downfall of the Marxist state could never have been less-well covered up.
Ultimately of course, by a combination of the  inherent failures and the constant internicine purges of the ascendant leadership regimes allied with covert and overt propagandists in the Western nations escalating the battle for the hearts ands minds of the people - the era of the arms race and the Cold War - the Soviet Union's demise was assured in the 1980's.

And just let's reflect a little on what it was replaced by!

References below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_intervention_in_the_Russian_Civil_War#Foreign_forces_throughout_Russia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brest-Litovsk_treaty#Lasting_effects
« Last Edit: June 3, 2013, 10:55:07 am by Johnnowhite »
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #83 on: June 7, 2013, 09:46:54 am »
Over the last 10 years or so we've heard a lot of talk about 'saturation bombing', 'carpet bombing', 'indiscriminate bombing'. Gaza, we were told, was subject to these things. So were the southern suburbs of Beirut.

I went to those southern suburbs a few months after the 'saturation bombing' of Beirut and it was genuinely difficult to see where any bombs had fallen. A few Hezbollah installations had been efficiently taken out but around these isolated craters city life continued undisturbed and unflustered. Beirut looked pretty much like any other Mediterranean town.

This week Hezbollah, the Lebanese Iranian-funded terrorist group, helped to 'liberate' the town of Qusair. You might think that it was none of their business since Syria is not their country. You'd be right. But 'liberate' the place they did. Basically by turning the whole place into rubble and ruins. No one is left there now, except for a few soldiers on the loot.

This is what saturation, untargetted bombing really is.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22809589
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Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #84 on: June 7, 2013, 09:50:04 am »
Saw those images this morning on the BBC news. Total destruction and the deliberate desecration of the village church made for scarily chilling viewing indeed.
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Offline zabadoh

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #85 on: June 8, 2013, 02:13:43 am »
To give an idea of the mind boggling scale of this tragedy...

UN says half of Syria's population will need aid

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/07/world/meast/syria-civil-war/?hpt=hp_t2

Quote
*snip*
More than 1.6 million Syrians have fled the country since the conflict began in March 2011; another 4.25 million are estimated to have been displaced inside it.

UNHCR noted that it had appealed in December for $1 billion, but increased the figure after the number of refugees exceeded predictions.

The announcement came as the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs predicted that 3.45 million inside Syria could have crossed its borders by the end of the year and another 6.8 million people remaining inside Syria will need aid.

That's nearly half of the nation, which has a population of 22.5 million.

*snip*

To put that in perspective, London has about 7.8 million residents, so about 1.5 Londons are going to need aid or they'll starve to death if the Syrian gov't doesn't ethnically cleanse them first.
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Offline armchair-fan

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #86 on: June 10, 2013, 03:51:48 pm »
It would be an extremely bizarre end game if Assad's oppressive regime was propped up by, on the one hand Hezbollah because some of the rebels aren't their type of extremist jihadi terror merchants, and on the other hand the Israelis on the basis of 'better the devil you know' and that a new Syrian regime might start getting trying to grab back land from them.

Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #87 on: June 10, 2013, 07:09:32 pm »
It would be an extremely bizarre end game if Assad's oppressive regime was propped up by, on the one hand Hezbollah because some of the rebels aren't their type of extremist jihadi terror merchants, and on the other hand the Israelis on the basis of 'better the devil you know' and that a new Syrian regime might start getting trying to grab back land from them.

I don't think that there is any evidence that the Israeli's want to enter into an alliance with Assad or Hezbollah, quite the opposite if anything
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Offline zabadoh

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #88 on: June 10, 2013, 11:59:00 pm »
Hezbollah are just Iranian backed puppets.  Iran is also the main backer for the Assad govt right now, so it's no surprise that Hez. got involved as another resource that the Iranians could throw in at little cost.  If Syria were to turn hostile to Iran, which a Sunni-led govt almost.certainly would be, Hez. would lose their supply lines from Iran.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #89 on: June 11, 2013, 08:48:47 am »
Among many ironies in this Syrian war is the fact that Hezbollah fighters in Qusair have reported having to decommission the types of booby traps that not long ago they were instructing the Sunni jihadist group Hamas how to make. 'Blowback' if you will. 

A little foretaste there, perhaps, of what would happen if either Hamas (from Gaza) or Hezbollah (from Lebanon) managed one day to exterminate the Israelis. Palestine would no doubt then become the battleground for one almighty war between two fanatical Parties of God - one Shia, one Sunni, the one funded and supplied from Iran, the other from Saudi and the Gulf States, and both swollen with mortal hatred for each other.
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Offline evenflow

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #90 on: June 11, 2013, 09:07:11 pm »
Among many ironies in this Syrian war is the fact that Hezbollah fighters in Qusair have reported having to decommission the types of booby traps that not long ago they were instructing the Sunni jihadist group Hamas how to make. 'Blowback' if you will. 

Our kids joining the fight on the side of the Takfiris is what we should be worried about.
Pretty much the nation states post the Ottoman Empire are falling to pieces and like then the major powers are backing their horse at the cost of the lives of ordinary people.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #91 on: June 14, 2013, 10:16:12 am »
Syria is a conflict in which the West has NOT intervened. It's done what opponents of liberal interventionism say should be done - it's stayed out of the conflict and let the course of events happen as they happen.

I'm not saying that the case for intervening was overwhelming at the beginning of the uprising against President Assad's Baath regime, but there was a case and it was briefly debated on here. There's arguably less of case now since the Free Syrian Army has perpetrated its own atrocities in what's become a full-scale civil and international war (with Iran and Hezbollah fighting to uphold the Baathists and the Russians continuing to supply Assad with weapons and spare parts).

What's undeniable however is that non-intervention has not resulted in a more peaceful settling of scores. The rate of killing in Syria is much, much higher than it was in Libya and it's even higher than it was in Iraq at the height of the sectarian war in 2006.  At least 93,000 people have died in the conflict so far (each single death is recorded and corroborated). As the UN says the real number might be 130,000.  And there is, as yet, no sight of an ending.

I remember Christopher Hitchens saying (in 2001 I think) that there would never be a peaceful alternative to the West toppling Saddam Hussein's Baathi regime. He argued that the murderous regime could not last forever and that if it was left to collapse from within there would be a massive blood-letting. First because the Baathis wouldn't go peacefully. Second because of the intense and repressed resentments generated by years of totalitarian rule from Baghdad.

We now know full well that there was a massive blood-letting anyway - and that American troops, at least until the surge, lost control of the country to the disbanded Baathi soldiers and private sectarian armies. But we also now know that Hitchens was right about the alternative.   

The Syrian Baathi regime was a bunch of cuddles compared with Saddam's sister regime in Iraq. Both were species of Fascism, but Saddam's was far more cruel, far more expansionist and far more murderous. Yet look at how the 'soft' version of Baathism has reacted to those Syrians who've challenged its rule. Chemical weapons, mass murder of children, carpet bombing. In return there are parts of the country which are now overrun by those resisting the occupation, sorry, by sectarian fanatics who've latched on to a liberation movement and bled it dry. Towns and cities have been flattened. Millions displaced. Refugees are pouring into neighbouring countries. And there is NO responsible authority in Syria that is trying to stem the flow. It's possible, too, that we've seen nothing yet.


Syria death toll at least 93,000, says UN
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22886730
At least 93,000 people have been killed in Syria since the start of the conflict, according to latest United Nations figures.

This represents a rise of more than 30,000 since the UN last issued figures covering the period to November 2012.

At least 5,000 people have been dying in Syria every month since last July, the UN's human rights body says.

But it says these statistics are an underestimate as it believes many deaths have not been reported.

Over 80% of those killed were men, but the UN's Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) says it has also documented the deaths of more than 1,700 children under the age of 10.

There were "cases of individual children being tortured and executed, and entire families, including babies, being massacred - which, along with this devastatingly high death toll, is a terrible reminder of just how vicious this conflict has become," said OHCHR head Navi Pillay.

The revised toll came the day after a separate global UN report called the number of deaths among Syrian children "unbearable".

The study said government forces and rebels were using boys and girls as "suicide bombers or human shields".

Children in Syria were suffering "maybe the heaviest toll" of anywhere in the world, said UN special representative Leila Zerrougui, who presented the findings .

"They are killed, they are maimed, they are recruited, they are detained, they are tortured", she told journalists in New York.

The report accused Syrian troops of torturing children suspected of having links to rebel groups.

But it said armed opposition groups, including the Free Syrian Army, were also using children, both in combat and in support roles such as transporting supplies and loading cartridges.

Jim Muir
BBC News, Beirut

The latest figures from the UN show clearly that the Syrian conflict is by far the bloodiest and most enduring of all the Arab uprisings. It's the only one that's mutated into a full-scale, heavily militarised civil war.

The casualty figures have risen dramatically, especially since the two biggest cities, Damascus and Aleppo, became caught up in the violence last July. Since then, the number of people killed has averaged more than 5,000 every month. Even at the height of the sectarian bloodletting in Iraq in 2006, the monthly death count only twice went over 3,000.

With no end in sight for what the UN Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay called the "drastically deteriorating pattern", the UN is braced not only for worsening casualty figures, but also for vast numbers of refugees joining those who have already flooded across the borders into neighbouring countries.
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Offline alfonso

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #92 on: June 14, 2013, 02:58:39 pm »
The US claim Assad has used Chemical weapons. Well their track record of claims which they use to get into 'wars' isn't great. I wouldn't trust them to tell me the time in a room full of clocks.
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Offline evenflow

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #93 on: June 14, 2013, 03:24:02 pm »
Syria is a conflict in which the West has NOT intervened. It's done what opponents of liberal interventionism say should be done - it's stayed out of the conflict and let the course of events happen as they happen.

I wouldn't go that far Yorky.  They have intervened but not yet overtly.  Today's news about the Americans seeing WMD's again has just changed that-why anyone would take any of their assessments as anything but a political smokescreen is beyond me.  Another internecine war that we are fuelling (and yes, the Russians and Iranians too).  We should stay out-completely.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #94 on: June 14, 2013, 03:55:02 pm »
I wouldn't go that far Yorky.  They have intervened but not yet overtly.  Today's news about the Americans seeing WMD's again has just changed that-why anyone would take any of their assessments as anything but a political smokescreen is beyond me.  Another internecine war that we are fuelling (and yes, the Russians and Iranians too).  We should stay out-completely.

We have stayed out completely. As you sort of acknowledge.

The result is not good. The Syrian government has been killing its own people at an extraordinary rate of attrition. The foreign jihadists, amply supplied by donors from the Gulf, are now doing the same. The murder rate exceeds anything seen in Iraq.

These are facts we can all agree on I think, while still having disagreements about what to do next.

This one my friend not even you can blame on Western intervention.

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Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #95 on: June 14, 2013, 04:05:26 pm »
The US claim Assad has used Chemical weapons. Well their track record of claims which they use to get into 'wars' isn't great. I wouldn't trust them to tell me the time in a room full of clocks.

I actually think France were the first foreign power to claim that the Assad regime were using chemical weapons.  In fact that claim caused somewhat of a diplomatic rift between the US and France as the US were not ready to make such a claim.

If we are looking for the first claim, this was made by the rebels, via Al Jazeera in December 2012:
http://blogs.aljazeera.com/topic/syria/gas-used-homs-leaves-seven-people-dead-and-scores-affected-activists-say
The US strongly denied these reports and said they had seen no evidence of chemical weapon use.

There were similar claims in March 2013 with both sides claiming that the other was responsible for a chemical weapons attack.  Again the US strongly denied that there was evidence of chemical weapons in use by either side in the conflict.

The Times did some analysis on soil samples smuggled out of Syria and alleged that they demonstrated the use of chemical weapons (by side unknown) in April 2013.  http://www.euronews.com/2013/04/13/chemical-weapons-used-in-syria-according-to-british-newspaper-sources/

Later that same month the first US experts broke cover and suggested that the Syrian Army had used Sarin gas on a small scale.  The US administration said that there was too little evidence: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2013/apr/25/syria-rebels-claim-proof-of-chemical-weapons-live

In May we had the French allegation:  http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/06/04/un-report-more-evidence-needed-on-syria-chemical-weapons-allegations/

It hardly amounts to a headlong Bush like rush to find something.  On the contrary it looks like the last thing Obama needs right now is embroilment in another middle eastern war and proof of the use of gas by the Government puts added pressure on him to do something.

I hate to say it but today's announcement might actually be one of those examples of "doing the right thing" even though it is not in their domestic political interests to do so.

« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 04:07:19 pm by Veinticinco de Mayo »
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #96 on: June 14, 2013, 04:21:57 pm »
Impressive (if distressing) levels of corroboration there Kev.  I think you're right about Obama too. He'd rather this all blow away.
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Offline evenflow

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #97 on: June 14, 2013, 04:45:42 pm »

I hate to say it but today's announcement might actually be one of those examples of "doing the right thing" even though it is not in their domestic political interests to do so.


I think it's more to do with the fact that the regime hasn't fallen as we were all told 'in a matter of weeks'.  The US is now going in overtly because there is a danger that the regime may in fact survive in one form or other.  Aleppo is in their sights so though it may be too late for that they will do all they can to stop Assad 'winning'.

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Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #98 on: June 14, 2013, 05:34:16 pm »
I think it's more to do with the fact that the regime hasn't fallen as we were all told 'in a matter of weeks'.  The US is now going in overtly because there is a danger that the regime may in fact survive in one form or other.  Aleppo is in their sights so though it may be too late for that they will do all they can to stop Assad 'winning'.

You can think that all you like but what evidence are you basing it on?
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #99 on: June 14, 2013, 05:39:07 pm »
Rwanda part 2 and again we're doing nothing productive. Shocking.
What the hell can we do? there comes a point where either you ship off anyone you can find who wants to leave the country at best. And then we get the refuge camps that dot the globe today.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #100 on: June 14, 2013, 05:40:48 pm »
If it acts like a cock and a banner appears on the kop with its name written down the shaft of a cock, it probably is...

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #101 on: June 14, 2013, 06:43:29 pm »
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #102 on: June 15, 2013, 11:15:36 pm »
You can think that all you like but what evidence are you basing it on?

It's not that difficult.  When Asad was supposed to be losing we didn't arm the Sunnis (led mostly in battle by the Takfiris).  Now The Shia are winning we are arming the Sunnis. 
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #103 on: June 16, 2013, 09:17:54 am »
It's not that difficult.  When Asad was supposed to be losing we didn't arm the Sunnis (led mostly in battle by the Takfiris).  Now The Shia are winning we are arming the Sunnis. 

That's not evidence.  That's your interpretation of what may be a motive.  Try again.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #104 on: June 16, 2013, 11:35:23 am »
It's not that difficult.  When Asad was supposed to be losing we didn't arm the Sunnis (led mostly in battle by the Takfiris).  Now The Shia are winning we are arming the Sunnis. 

Yes, you do seem to have a set of reflexes where most people have powers of reasoning. The worst motives are always ascribed to American behaviour whatever they do. If they intervene in Syria, say, then it's clearly because they are operating 100 per cent out of self-interest. If they don't intervene in Syria then it's clearly because they are operating 100 per cent out of self-interest. The moment they shift between one position and another is simply the moment that assessments of their self-interest change. Nothing else.

I understand the temptation to rely on reflexes rather than evidence when it comes to assessing international policy of any kind. It saves the effort of actually studying things or having any opinion on anything except the one great opinion (America is evil). And the beauty of having one great opinion is that it can be applied to any imaginable situation. In theory there's nothing that 'America is Evil' will not explain (even the defeat of Nazism in 1945 if you push it hard enough).

In reality American policy regarding Syria is easily explicable if you look at the history of the last two years. Soon after the popular (and, as yet, peaceful) rebellion began against Assad and was met by extreme State violence Obama, along with many other horrified international observers, called for Assad to resign. There was no presidential talk of intervening militarily at this stage ( summer 2011), just a few sanctions (against foreign assets of the Assad family and petroleum imports). As the Assad regime escalated its repression the Americans got behind an Arab League plan to isolate the Assad regime. But that plan was vetoed by Russia and China in the UN. At that point there was little that Obama could do, short of acting independently outside the UN (never going to happen) or forming a 'coalition of the willing' behind Russia's back (again, no evidence of anything of this sort happening). And every subsequent initiative worked up inside the United Nations came a cropper as Russia and China supported its Baathist ally in Syria - humanitarian considerations be damned. Russia indeed began to increase its supplies of arms and weapons parts to the Assad regime the more effectively to enable it to exterminate the popular challenge to its rule. 

Starved of funds and weapons the largely secular Free Syrian Army struggled not just to press home its advantage against Assad; it began to lose control of the rebellion altogether. Independent foreign Sunni jihadists began to pour into Syria from all over North Africa and the Middle east (and probably London and Birmingham) and very quickly the popular rebellion against Assad began to take on a nasty sectarian colour. I'm certain that Obama didn't like seeing this happen, despite the fact that it led to several towns being captured  by the Free Syrian Army and the jihadist brigades last summer (including Aleppo). For at that point the Iranians were involved and there were rumours (now substantiated) that Hezbollah had sent soldiers to fight for Assad. The idea of any western intervention in this disastrous 'free for all' began to recede rapidly.

Pressed by the French, British and by the Arab League Obama made his comment (in August 2012) that the 'red line' would be Assad using chemical weapons against his own people. Part of this was humanitarian, part was legal, and part was an entirely rational fear about what might happen to distributed (or captured) stockpiles of chemical warheads. You might think that because no WMD were found in Iraq then it logically follows that Assad cannot have any chemical weapons. But that would be ideology talking. The fact is he does have them and now, it seems, he's begun to use them.

As for the Americans now intervening? I don't know. The moment that Islamist from the Omar al-Farouq cannibalised the dead Syrian soldier and boasted about it on youtube was the moment that any remaining appetite for American intervention of any kind disappeared. Even John McCain, the most militant voice for some sort of American intervention, explicitly rejected "boots on the ground". In fact he called that "the worst option". 

You obviously have a simple solution to all this - and one, I can guess, that isn't affected by the 'red line' being crossed and chemical weapons being used. I forget though. What is it again? To make it easy let's assume it involves America and the West staying out of Syrian affairs completely and utterly. I get that bit. What next?

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #105 on: June 16, 2013, 11:42:59 am »
That's not evidence.  That's your interpretation of what may be a motive.  Try again.

The evidence is in the news that comes from the ground.  Yes it can be interpreted in many ways depending on how much weight you give particular events/sources.  Pretty much the same as the evidence for the use of sarin there.  Why do you think that we are arming the Sunni's then? What's your interpretation of what may be a motive?
Don't support the West on this and as with Libya anyone opposing intervention is tarred with the same-
you hate the west, support dictators etc etc etc
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #106 on: June 16, 2013, 11:44:41 am »
Yes, you do seem to have a set of reflexes where most people have powers of reasoning. The worst motives are always ascribed to American behaviour whatever they do. If they intervene in Syria, say, then it's clearly because they are operating 100 per cent out of self-interest. If they don't intervene in Syria then it's clearly because they are operating 100 per cent out of self-interest. The moment they shift between one position and another is simply the moment that assessments of their self-interest change. Nothing else.

I understand the temptation to rely on reflexes rather than evidence when it comes to assessing international policy of any kind. It saves the effort of actually studying things or having any opinion on anything except the one great opinion (America is evil). And the beauty of having one great opinion is that it can be applied to any imaginable situation. In theory there's nothing that 'America is Evil' will not explain (even the defeat of Nazism in 1945 if you push it hard enough).

In reality American policy regarding Syria is easily explicable if you look at the history of the last two years. Soon after the popular (and, as yet, peaceful) rebellion began against Assad and was met by extreme State violence Obama, along with many other horrified international observers, called for Assad to resign. There was no presidential talk of intervening militarily at this stage ( summer 2011), just a few sanctions (against foreign assets of the Assad family and petroleum imports). As the Assad regime escalated its repression the Americans got behind an Arab League plan to isolate the Assad regime. But that plan was vetoed by Russia and China in the UN. At that point there was little that Obama could do, short of acting independently outside the UN (never going to happen) or forming a 'coalition of the willing' behind Russia's back (again, no evidence of anything of this sort happening). And every subsequent initiative worked up inside the United Nations came a cropper as Russia and China supported its Baathist ally in Syria - humanitarian considerations be damned. Russia indeed began to increase its supplies of arms and weapons parts to the Assad regime the more effectively to enable it to exterminate the popular challenge to its rule. 

Starved of funds and weapons the largely secular Free Syrian Army struggled not just to press home its advantage against Assad; it began to lose control of the rebellion altogether. Independent foreign Sunni jihadists began to pour into Syria from all over North Africa and the Middle east (and probably London and Birmingham) and very quickly the popular rebellion against Assad began to take on a nasty sectarian colour. I'm certain that Obama didn't like seeing this happen, despite the fact that it led to several towns being captured  by the Free Syrian Army and the jihadist brigades last summer (including Aleppo). For at that point the Iranians were involved and there were rumours (now substantiated) that Hezbollah had sent soldiers to fight for Assad. The idea of any western intervention in this disastrous 'free for all' began to recede rapidly.

Pressed by the French, British and by the Arab League Obama made his comment (in August 2012) that the 'red line' would be Assad using chemical weapons against his own people. Part of this was humanitarian, part was legal, and part was an entirely rational fear about what might happen to distributed (or captured) stockpiles of chemical warheads. You might think that because no WMD were found in Iraq then it logically follows that Assad cannot have any chemical weapons. But that would be ideology talking. The fact is he does have them and now, it seems, he's begun to use them.

As for the Americans now intervening? I don't know. The moment that Islamist from the Omar al-Farouq cannibalised the dead Syrian soldier and boasted about it on youtube was the moment that any remaining appetite for American intervention of any kind disappeared. Even John McCain, the most militant voice for some sort of American intervention, explicitly rejected "boots on the ground". In fact he called that "the worst option". 

You obviously have a simple solution to all this - and one, I can guess, that isn't affected by the 'red line' being crossed and chemical weapons being used. I forget though. What is it again? To make it easy let's assume it involves America and the West staying out of Syrian affairs completely and utterly. I get that bit. What next?



Ah.  A timely post Yorky.  I'll stay out of the discussion.
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Offline RedWesty

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #107 on: June 16, 2013, 11:58:11 am »
In an interview with the French TV station LCP, former French minister for Foreign Affairs Roland Dumas said:

‘’ I’m going to tell you something. I was in England two years before the violence in Syria on other business. I met
with top British officials, who confessed to me that they were preparing something in Syria.

This was in Britain not in America. Britain was organizing an invasion of rebels into Syria. They even asked me,
although I was no longer minister for foreign affairs, if I would like to participate.

Naturally, I refused, I said I’m French, that doesn’t interest me.’’

Dumas went on give the audience a quick lesson on the real reason for the war that has now claimed the lives of
tens of thousands of people.

‘’This operation goes way back. It was prepared, preconceived and planned… in the region it is important to know
that this Syrian regime has a very anti-Israeli stance.

Consequently, everything that moves in the region- and I have this from the former Israeli prime minister who told
me ‘we’ll try to get on with our neighbours but those who don’t agree with us will be destroyed.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/former-french-foreign-minister-the-war-against-syria-was-planned-two-years-before-the-arab-spring/5339112

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vz5EKlI3fQ


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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #108 on: June 16, 2013, 12:02:50 pm »
From the same source.

Israel planned this war of annihilation years ago in accordance with the Yinon Plan, which advocates balkanization of all states that pose a threat to Israel. The Zionist entity is using Britain and France to goad the reluctant Obama administration into sending more American troops to their death in Syria on behalf of Tel Aviv.

It's a Jewish conspiracy. How surprising!
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #109 on: June 16, 2013, 12:08:40 pm »
The evidence is in the news that comes from the ground.  Yes it can be interpreted in many ways depending on how much weight you give particular events/sources.  Pretty much the same as the evidence for the use of sarin there.  Why do you think that we are arming the Sunni's then? What's your interpretation of what may be a motive?
Don't support the West on this and as with Libya anyone opposing intervention is tarred with the same-
you hate the west, support dictators etc etc etc

No, the evidence from the ground is that Government forces have made gains.  There is still a huge jump from that to arguing that this has caused a change in US policy.  I have no idea what the motives of the US Government are and I don't pretend to, but I think that the timelines that both myself and Yorky have posted show a huge US reluctance to get involved.

As for why we are arming the rebels, as far as I am aware we are not arming then yet.  It is on the agenda for discussion at the upcoming G8 summit.  As for why the position has changed, again I will not pretend to know the full reason, however the simplest explanation, as pointed out by Yorky above is that this is simply Obama honouring a commitment he made to the Arab League a year ago.

This is not a case of supporting the West or not supporting the West.  The situation is so fucked up that I defy anyone to know what is the best solution at this point.  My argument is against those that think that a simple Imperiast West argument can be applied to this to explain everything.  It cannot.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #110 on: June 16, 2013, 12:37:49 pm »
From the same source.

Israel planned this war of annihilation years ago in accordance with the Yinon Plan, which advocates balkanization of all states that pose a threat to Israel. The Zionist entity is using Britain and France to goad the reluctant Obama administration into sending more American troops to their death in Syria on behalf of Tel Aviv.

It's a Jewish conspiracy. How surprising!

You're being rather selective by merely playing the race card. When the source Roland Dumas didn't mention Zionist's.
He say's it was planned 2 years ago. None of this having no choice but to help the rebals.

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #111 on: June 16, 2013, 12:40:16 pm »
The Independent on Sunday has learned that a military decision has been taken in Iran – even before
last week’s presidential election – to send a first contingent of 4,000 Iranian Revolutionary Guards to
Syria to support President Bashar al-Assad’s forces against the largely Sunni rebellion that has cost
almost 100,000 lives in just over two years.  Iran is now fully committed to preserving Assad’s regime,
according to pro-Iranian sources which have been deeply involved in the Islamic Republic’s security,
even to the extent of proposing to open up a new ‘Syrian’ front on the Golan Heights against Israel.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iran-will-send-4000-troops-to-aid-bashar-alassads-forces-in-syria-8660358.html

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #112 on: June 16, 2013, 12:44:05 pm »
Russia has dismissed US assertions that Bashar al-Assad has used chemical weapons against
his own people, and said any US move to arm Syrian rebels would jeopardise efforts to convene
a peace conference.

Responding to White House moves to broaden its military support for the forces lined up against
Assad's regime, the Kremlin said it was not convinced by the pretext for doing so.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/14/russia-us-syria-chemical-weapons

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #113 on: June 16, 2013, 12:47:56 pm »
You're being rather selective by merely playing the race card. When the source Roland Dumas didn't mention Zionist's.
He say's it was planned 2 years ago. None of this having no choice but to help the rebals.

I'm sorry for reading the whole article not just part of it.

I rather think that your website is playing 'the race card'. The whole Syrian uprising is something planned by Zionists two years ago? Cuckoo. Cuckoo!

Tell me - is that 'global research' website Far Right or Far Left? I can't tell the difference these days.  ;D
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #114 on: June 16, 2013, 01:09:29 pm »
Interesting and thoroughly depressing analysis by Al Jazeera's main analyst.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/06/20136131049162160.html
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #116 on: June 16, 2013, 04:09:17 pm »
Too many warmongrering fucks in the world. Any intervention by the west needs to be resisted by everyone, as it could possibly be a fast track to the 3rd big one!

Just how many invaded countries does it take for the USA to be compared to a certian regime prominent in Western Europe about 70  yrs ago?

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #117 on: June 16, 2013, 04:16:46 pm »
Too many warmongrering fucks in the world. Any intervention by the west needs to be resisted by everyone, as it could possibly be a fast track to the 3rd big one!

Just how many invaded countries does it take for the USA to be compared to a certian regime prominent in Western Europe about 70  yrs ago?

No darling. You've misunderstood. The US hasn't invaded this time. They haven't been involved at all. But don't let that stop you from blaming 130,000 Syrian deaths on Obama.

By the way what happened to that Mossad attack on western cities that you predicted all those years ago? The one where they would dress up as Islamist nut-jobs. Or was that Woolwich?
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #118 on: June 16, 2013, 04:49:09 pm »
Sorry my Zionist Fliend...if you you believe that the USA has no involvment in Syria already then you're an innocent. ..
just how can the rebels have enough firepower to take on the whole Syrian army? France and the UK are nothing more than client states of the US who do what theyr're told.
those reports of 130,000 deaths, chemical weapons accusations are propaganda to sell us in the west another war. How many deaths are at the hands of the rebels? notice how the allegations of chemical weapons  came out when Russia is pushing for a negotiated settlement

You really can't wait for anther war can you? You might even get that enormous stiffy you've promised yourself

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #119 on: June 16, 2013, 04:51:08 pm »
Too many warmongrering fucks in the world. Any intervention by the west needs to be resisted by everyone, as it could possibly be a fast track to the 3rd big one!

Just how many invaded countries does it take for the USA to be compared to a certian regime prominent in Western Europe about 70  yrs ago?

Oh dear.

Anyway, as we were, Western non-intervention is going just swimmingly at the moment, with 100,000 dead and atrocities on both sides. 
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