Author Topic: Time to stop and think....  (Read 29896 times)

Offline xavidub

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2010, 03:42:46 pm »
I can't see the point in him going at the moment. The squad is composed of players he bought, he knows why he bought them and presumably they rate him.

There isn't really anyone around who is an obvious replacement unless the owners are going to open their wallets which is unlikely.

However, I am furious with him for being too fucking stubborn to change his approach even when it is patently failing, failing to
address our defensive ineptitude, failing to play decent football, failing to look like we even want the ball, failing to learn how to kill a game off, failing to present any offensive threat to the opposition and failing utilise our own set-piece opportunities. Game after game after game. For a manager who is famous for studying games it mystifies me why he can't seem to address these problems.

As far as I can see he has decided that we are going to succeed his way or not at all. And his way isn't working so what now?
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Offline killer-heels

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #41 on: January 15, 2010, 03:45:47 pm »
I respect your opinion, but I honestly don't think there is a better manager than Benitez who would be willing to come to the club. Are there better managers than Rafa? Yes, undoubtedly, but all of them will never leave their current positions. Therefore I honestly believe that any man coming in after Rafa is sacked will be a step down. With all the off-the-pitch turmoil this club has endured, there is not a single world class manager who would want the job.

It seems as though you're proposing to take a gamble regarding the manager's position. I'd agree with you only if our current situation wasn't so precarious. If we were rolling in cash and had a bit of boardroom stability, then perhaps I'd be more inclined to take a gamble. After all that's what happened with regards to Ged. But the risks and costs associated with failure as of the present day are enormous. We are not only competing with the Mancs, Arsenal and Chelsea, but City, Spurs and Villa as well. All of them have far more money than we do and in my opinion have better squads, if not starting XIs. If Rafa is sacked the new man would not only have a difficult transitional period, he would have to do so amidst the strongest threat to our European qualification in recent memory.

Fair points, although you have to take into consideration the terrible luck we've had with regards to injuries. When the entire squad is fit and have a decent run of games under their belt, they always play superbly, which is an indicator of Rafa's coaching ability.

He hasn't done as well as he would have liked due to executive meddling. This isn't a made-up excuse, as Paul Tomkins' exclusive proved that he has missed out on first choice targets due to insufficient financial backing. I agree he has bought a few flops, but the majority of his purchases have been decent, some have been magnificent and if he was backed more strongly by the management then I have no doubt he would have gotten it right more often.

I disagree. Our squad is definitely not as good as our immediate challengers. Our starting XI can beat anyone on its day but over the course of a long season we simply don't have the luxury of swapping out one superstar for another, as the Mancs and Chelsea and now City are capable of. Arsenal are on a similar budget, but they've hardly made a strong challenge for the title themselves. Add that to the injury problems we've had and Rafa hs quite frankly overachieved considering the resources he's got and the restrictions he has had to work under. No other manager has had to consider player wages as part of their transfer budget. No other manager has been forced to resist selling a player because he would not receive that money to reinvest in the squad.

In terms of a new manager, its based on personal opinions. If Rafa were to leave/was sacked then I think both Hiddink and Hodgson could be seen as good short-term appointments, giving us more time to find a new manager in the summer. Now thats not me saying I want Rafa to be replaced by these lot but I do think both could do a good job in the meantime, should he leave.

I don't think some of those teams do have better squads then us. The squad consists of Reina, Cavalieri, Kelly, Johnson, Carragher, Agger, Skrtel, Insua, Aurelio, Aquilani, Mascherano, Lucas, Gerrard, Benayoun, Rodriguez, Babel, Kuyt, Ngog, Torres. Are we now saying that Villa have better squads then us when their backup consists of Luke Young, Steve Sidwell and Emile Heskey? I don't think Utd have a better squad either, especially if you consider taht for most of the season they have had to survive without Ferdinand and Vidic.

We have had injuries but every team has them. We have still lost games when our best team has been on the field and you cannot say that when they are fully fit and every single individual is ready, then you can judge. Its just not like that and I think there has been enough quality in the squad to not be where we are,.

Like I said, overall he has done well but the last 2 transfer summers have been poor.

Again back to the squad. Starting at the back and considering Utd have had Ferdinand and Vidic out for most of the season, are we saying that Evans, Brown and O'Shea are now better than Agger, Skrtel and Carragher? Can Rafael and Neville be considered better than Johnson. Are any of Scholes, Carrick (who has hardly played), Anderson and Gibson considered better than Masch, Lucas, Aquilani and Gerrard, considering that fans think Lucas can walk into the Utd side?

I don't think our team and especially our squad is as bad, on paper, as people think and I do find it strange (not against you) how some people on here on one hand say our squad is weaker but then if you mention a player like Lucas you get told you cannot criticise him because he is better than what Arsenal and Utd have as backup in their squads (Denilson, Anderson, Gibson etc).
« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 03:48:27 pm by killer_heels »

Offline slaphead

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #42 on: January 15, 2010, 03:49:29 pm »
I can't see the point in him going at the moment. The squad is composed of players he bought, he knows why he bought them and presumably they rate him.

There isn't really anyone around who is an obvious replacement unless the owners are going to open their wallets which is unlikely.

However, I am furious with him for being too fucking stubborn to change his approach even when it is patently failing, failing to
address our defensive ineptitude, failing to play decent football, failing to look like we even want the ball, failing to learn how to kill a game off, failing to present any offensive threat to the opposition and failing utilise our own set-piece opportunities. Game after game after game. For a manager who is famous for studying games it mystifies me why he can't seem to address these problems.

As far as I can see he has decided that we are going to succeed his way or not at all. And his way isn't working so what now?

I think its a case of him having his pricniples and beliefs and sticking by them no matter what - which I admire.
But it doesn't mean I agree with them.
And my fear is that the players may not agree with them. 

Offline No Way José

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #43 on: January 15, 2010, 03:54:35 pm »
The only possible reason for getting rid of Rafa would be if you could replace him with someone better. I have yet to see anyone better who is  a) Available and  b) Would be willing to take the job on whilst those 2 fuckwits are still in charge.
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Offline AndrewLFC_1971

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #44 on: January 15, 2010, 04:00:21 pm »
I definitley want Rafa to stay with us,the media are baying for his blood, they WANT him out no doubt about it and they can do one as far as i'm concerned , Rafa has earned my loyalty for what he's done these last 5 years and deserves time and patience when he needs it most, after all it's easy to support when we're winning !! I don't know why but i've just got this gut feeling that he'll turn this around and there will be a golden sky at the end of this storm,i understand why some people are calling for his head because we simply aren't good enough at present but these people along with the british media will all owe Rafa a huge apology when he turns us around as i'm certain he will.

Offline Fat Scouser

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2010, 04:04:01 pm »
Fat Scouser is a star, and one step ahead of us all. I have found Roy Hodgkinson's cv, and he is quite a candidate:
Dr Roy W Hodgkinson, Chair CIF


Roy’s career has been based in manufacturing industries.  Born in Birmingham his career started in Electronics before moving to Rover Cars Birmingham Operations.  He held a number of positions, Industrial Engineering manager for Body and Assembly followed by establishing a number of new departments, i.e. “Plant and Production Engineering and “The New Model Centre”.  His final role was Director of projects where he managed the Honda manufacturing process engineering development team and facilities on the Rover 200 programme.  He joined Johnson Tiles as Manufacturing Director in charge of a workforce of 2000 employees, after 6 years moving to Divisional Manufacturing Director providing assistance for Johnson Tiles companies in South Africa, Australia, Greece and India.  He returned to the UK operation after 7 years to manage manufacturing at their new £35 million facility.  Prior to his retirement, from Johnson’s, in 2009 he was Deputy Managing Director for 3 years.  Roy has an MSc and PhD from Coventry University; he is also an Honorary Doctor at Staffordshire University.  Other Non Exec roles he retains are Chair of CIF (Ceramic Industry Forum) and also Chair of STEMNET for Staffordshire
http://www.mas-wm.org/about-us/board-members


Crucially he is avaiiable immediately, and we could look forwards to an immediate improvement in the quality of  the tiling in Anfield's toilets - he has my vote for that alone!
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Offline rakey_lfc

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2010, 04:06:46 pm »
Fat Scouser iam of a similar age to your good self and i have seen the great and the bad that this wonderful club has to offer. We live in a world were this once great club has been reduced to a media pillory were we place our manager in full view of these ignorant bastards who copy and paste insults and twisted opinion as fact.
In many ways this is indicative of modern society were repacious greed has replaced morality and conscious,and in doing so feeds the need to blame when failure has taken place.
We as both a club and a city stood for self belief and would back people who tried their upmost to do their best for the club or city.
Now we have started to show the first signs of that position changing at a faster pace than ever before.
We as supporters have a opportunity to stand against this repugnant tide,stand up for Rafa sing his name loud and proud. Make the sad hacks who pump out there bile week in week out realise that they may convince "tarquin from essex" that we are finished but he will never convince us.
Stop ringing the pathetic talkshows and their plastic hosts which only fuel their bonfire of vanity.
We are different from all the other clubs...remember that and if you cannot then go somewere else. We are Liverpool football club who are a beacon of red light to others who believe that somethings in life are more important than just winning a silver pot every season. If you dont believe in that then we might as well put away our proud banners and songs and wave plastic flags issued by the next set of owners looking to make the "brand"more attractive to the media whore.
Ask yourself in the mirror what would Shankly say about sacking our manager?

Any chance you could write that on a banner? ;D

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Offline Fat Scouser

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #47 on: January 15, 2010, 04:08:10 pm »
Oh and I changed it but only to keep the thread on track. I think it was funny to be honest.

But the thread's already getting derailed... this isn't here for people to defend Rafa in. It's here for his detractors. Like I said, state your case. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd actually like to see something that would convince me I'm that I'm wrong and things would get better after Rafa.
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Offline slaphead

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #48 on: January 15, 2010, 04:11:27 pm »
The only possible reason for getting rid of Rafa would be if you could replace him with someone better. I have yet to see anyone better who is  a) Available and  b) Would be willing to take the job on whilst those 2 fuckwits are still in charge.

But you dont know who is available and who would work with the yanks - no one does.
Although just for arguements sake - who would your choice be IF the trigger was to be pulled ?

Offline AndrewLFC_1971

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2010, 04:15:10 pm »
FS, the thing is most of the people who want Rafa out can't back it up with any substance which is why the people who defend him are in here because they aren't blinded by the media onslaught which is raging around us.

Offline Mr Mojo Risin'

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #50 on: January 15, 2010, 04:15:44 pm »

But the thread's already getting derailed... this isn't here for people to defend Rafa in. It's here for his detractors. Like I said, state your case. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd actually like to see something that would convince me I'm that I'm wrong and things would get better after Rafa.
Same thread wa presented, and binned, earlier.This will go the same way
as soon as the mods see the same sort of replies.
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Offline JimmyGrunt

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #51 on: January 15, 2010, 04:17:39 pm »
They'll be along shortly, there just learning the Whelan article first.  :wave
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Offline Sabu Pundit

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #52 on: January 15, 2010, 04:17:59 pm »
My scouse...Basturks! How ingrate the seethin' mob, wiv' cowardly bloody mouths gnaw at carcass of iberia michelin, the once majestic oceanic blob Moby Bennett, what beached and near helpless. How sharper than cobra's molar is ungrateful fan! You amnesia the huge tail what slap world football face in CHIMP LEAGUE all them year? Basturks! You busy jawin' turds when he swallow finest striker in the ever-open ceteacean maws? Unnaturals! You caught spot o'alzheimer when it shat out 86points into your pitiful imbecilic rotten gobs 26 week past? Sabu retch at putrid "fan", born to screech, doom'd to lose. Push it in! Heave its marble bulk back to shores it once ruled. The Raffles can still ride. 
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Offline SalisburyRed

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #53 on: January 15, 2010, 04:19:36 pm »
Wow.

Offline slaphead

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #54 on: January 15, 2010, 04:21:16 pm »
FS, the thing is most of the people who want Rafa out can't back it up with any substance which is why the people who defend him are in here because they aren't blinded by the media onslaught which is raging around us.

I'm not blined by the media - I take no notice of the media - I see things with my own eyes - and I don't like what I see.
I would like to, I would love to see Rafa thorw up 2 fingers and prove everyone wrong but I cant see it happening based on the points I made earlier.
So,Fat Scouser just to turn this around a little - hypothetically speaking - what would have to happen for you to lose faith in Rafa ?
I'm a patient man - god knows you have to be this day and age - but my gut is telling me we need to make the change 

Offline canuckkopite

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #55 on: January 15, 2010, 04:23:17 pm »
I don't think this is an issue with Rafa as much as it's an issue with the performances of the players on the pitch.  No question there have been unusual team decisions and substitutions.  It happens at every club.  But he can only manage them to a point, and then it's up to the players to decide how they want to perform on a given day.

I have a hard time laying much of the blame for our poor spell on the guy.  It seems like the easiest thing to do.  But that doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do. I would prefer to see players who can't get themselves up for matches go before him.

Just my thoughts.

Offline bmac

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #56 on: January 15, 2010, 04:24:16 pm »
While not following the actual reason for the post with my reply (no one else is), i'd like to ask the question:

"If we continue to play and perform as we have done so far for the rest of the season and finish 6th/7th, will those who right now see Rafa as the only answer still want him to stay?"

I feel that our team/squad which Rafa has brought in is good enough to at least finish in the top four and on form mount a challenge even with the injuries we have had. I don't want Rafa out but something drastic does need to be done as the players are not performing.
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Offline Billy The Kid

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #57 on: January 15, 2010, 04:24:42 pm »
My scouse...Basturks! How ingrate the seethin' mob, wiv' cowardly bloody mouths gnaw at carcass of iberia michelin, the once majestic oceanic blob Moby Bennett, what beached and near helpless. How sharper than cobra's molar is ungrateful fan! You amnesia the huge tail what slap world football face in CHIMP LEAGUE all them year? Basturks! You busy jawin' turds when he swallow finest striker in the ever-open ceteacean maws? Unnaturals! You caught spot o'alzheimer when it shat out 86points into your pitiful imbecilic rotten gobs 26 week past? Sabu retch at putrid "fan", born to screech, doom'd to lose. Push it in! Heave its marble bulk back to shores it once ruled. The Raffles can still ride. 

:lmao

Welcome back you crazy genius
When overtaken by defeat, as you may be many times, remember than mans faith in his own ability is tested many times before he is crowned with final victory. Defeats are nothing more than challenges to keep trying.” – Napoleon Hill.

Offline slaphead

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #58 on: January 15, 2010, 04:25:13 pm »
I don't think this is an issue with Rafa as much as it's an issue with the performances of the players on the pitch. 

Yeah but, managers are held accountable for that, just like they gets the plaudits when things go well.
The buck has to stop somewhere

Offline RK7

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #59 on: January 15, 2010, 04:25:43 pm »
I imagine the relationship between Rafa and the average Liverpool fan is a little like a stale marriage. You desperately want it to work, you often ignore obvious problems and kid yourself it will be ok given time.

The idea solution is the your wife (Rafa) realises their faults and changes their ways.


Offline Fat Scouser

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2010, 04:25:45 pm »
My scouse...Basturks! How ingrate the seethin' mob, wiv' cowardly bloody mouths gnaw at carcass of iberia michelin, the once majestic oceanic blob Moby Bennett, what beached and near helpless. How sharper than cobra's molar is ungrateful fan! You amnesia the huge tail what slap world football face in CHIMP LEAGUE all them year? Basturks! You busy jawin' turds when he swallow finest striker in the ever-open ceteacean maws? Unnaturals! You caught spot o'alzheimer when it shat out 86points into your pitiful imbecilic rotten gobs 26 week past? Sabu retch at putrid "fan", born to screech, doom'd to lose. Push it in! Heave its marble bulk back to shores it once ruled. The Raffles can still ride. 
Made up. That's it close the thread... it's pulled the majestic mystical Sabu out of hiding and that for me is enough.

"A peasant you are. A peasant you will remain. And we shall use all our wealth and power, to make your lot even worse and keep you exactly where you are, Bondage!"    The Boy King, Richard II, after  putting down the The Peasants Revolt in 1381.

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Offline JimmyGrunt

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2010, 04:30:11 pm »
I love Sabu. Always pops up when you least expect. Like skids in your bills.  ;D
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Offline Gaudete GaudeTerry de Niro, Ex Maria Virginae Gaudete!

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2010, 04:30:17 pm »
My scouse...Basturks! How ingrate the seethin' mob, wiv' cowardly bloody mouths gnaw at carcass of iberia michelin, the once majestic oceanic blob Moby Bennett, what beached and near helpless. How sharper than cobra's molar is ungrateful fan! You amnesia the huge tail what slap world football face in CHIMP LEAGUE all them year? Basturks! You busy jawin' turds when he swallow finest striker in the ever-open ceteacean maws? Unnaturals! You caught spot o'alzheimer when it shat out 86points into your pitiful imbecilic rotten gobs 26 week past? Sabu retch at putrid "fan", born to screech, doom'd to lose. Push it in! Heave its marble bulk back to shores it once ruled. The Raffles can still ride. 
Brilliant.. ;D

Offline slaphead

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2010, 04:31:08 pm »
Made up. That's it close the thread... it's pulled the majestic mystical Sabu out of hiding and that for me is enough.


My scouse...Basturks! How ingrate the seethin' mob, wiv' cowardly bloody mouths gnaw at carcass of iberia michelin, the once majestic oceanic blob Moby Bennett, what beached and near helpless. How sharper than cobra's molar is ungrateful fan! You amnesia the huge tail what slap world football face in CHIMP LEAGUE all them year? Basturks! You busy jawin' turds when he swallow finest striker in the ever-open ceteacean maws? Unnaturals! You caught spot o'alzheimer when it shat out 86points into your pitiful imbecilic rotten gobs 26 week past? Sabu retch at putrid "fan", born to screech, doom'd to lose. Push it in! Heave its marble bulk back to shores it once ruled. The Raffles can still ride. 

I'm sorry - but that is just pure class.
You are a legend my friend
And on that note - I gotta drop and go do some work.
Fat Scouser, good job
I'll hopefully log in later and see how this one is pregressing

Offline Heathcote_Simpleton

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #64 on: January 15, 2010, 04:34:53 pm »
My scouse...Basturks! How ingrate the seethin' mob, wiv' cowardly bloody mouths gnaw at carcass of iberia michelin, the once majestic oceanic blob Moby Bennett, what beached and near helpless. How sharper than cobra's molar is ungrateful fan! You amnesia the huge tail what slap world football face in CHIMP LEAGUE all them year? Basturks! You busy jawin' turds when he swallow finest striker in the ever-open ceteacean maws? Unnaturals! You caught spot o'alzheimer when it shat out 86points into your pitiful imbecilic rotten gobs 26 week past? Sabu retch at putrid "fan", born to screech, doom'd to lose. Push it in! Heave its marble bulk back to shores it once ruled. The Raffles can still ride. 

Flaking good stuff.
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Offline stfabians

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #65 on: January 15, 2010, 04:35:15 pm »
My mum used to say to me when I was a pickle, take some time out and sort yourself out from head to tail, not bad advice for the whole club, some fans included!!

Offline Master ScouseKnee

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #66 on: January 15, 2010, 04:37:58 pm »
Thank you Sabu, made my day!

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Offline Gaudete GaudeTerry de Niro, Ex Maria Virginae Gaudete!

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #67 on: January 15, 2010, 04:38:49 pm »
My mum used to say to me when I was a pickle, take some time out and sort yourself out from head to tail, not bad advice for the whole club, some fans included!!
Brilliant advice for a few whoppers who post on here, immediately after a defeat.
If I ran this site, I'd close it down for a few days after a defeat.
Either that or get shut of a shed load of NOBS..

Offline Zeb

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #68 on: January 15, 2010, 04:48:04 pm »
My scouse...Basturks! How ingrate the seethin' mob, wiv' cowardly bloody mouths gnaw at carcass of iberia michelin, the once majestic oceanic blob Moby Bennett, what beached and near helpless. How sharper than cobra's molar is ungrateful fan! You amnesia the huge tail what slap world football face in CHIMP LEAGUE all them year? Basturks! You busy jawin' turds when he swallow finest striker in the ever-open ceteacean maws? Unnaturals! You caught spot o'alzheimer when it shat out 86points into your pitiful imbecilic rotten gobs 26 week past? Sabu retch at putrid "fan", born to screech, doom'd to lose. Push it in! Heave its marble bulk back to shores it once ruled. The Raffles can still ride. 

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Offline Fat Scouser

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #69 on: January 15, 2010, 04:49:27 pm »
I'm not blined by the media - I take no notice of the media - I see things with my own eyes - and I don't like what I see.
I would like to, I would love to see Rafa thorw up 2 fingers and prove everyone wrong but I cant see it happening based on the points I made earlier.
So,Fat Scouser just to turn this around a little - hypothetically speaking - what would have to happen for you to lose faith in Rafa ?
I'm a patient man - god knows you have to be this day and age - but my gut is telling me we need to make the change 
Well, for a kick off it could all be academic anyway... as the media - aided by the outraged phone chappies - is the thing that could get Rafa sacked or make him walk.

Some people think that's a bit dramatic, but I don't see how...
We have owners who are thicker than Stanley Victor Collydog and his disciples.
Rafa has stated on more than one occasion, that he only keeps fighting on because of the fans... if they turn against him in sufficient numbers he's bound to rethink things, especially when he considers what this witch hunt must be doing to Montse and his kids.

But the media has moved beyond slatting him now. I've been saying this for quite some time, but it's growing and growing by the minute... they are now trying to reduce the man to nothing but a figure of ridicule, and if they achieve that aim, he's dead in the water. The job is then untenable.

As for how long do I give him personally, well I'm old enough to have been around during Shankly's barren years. I've suffered through the years inbetween Kenny and Rafa. Although in all truth, I think it was only the Souness years that were completely unaccapetable. So, I may well have more patientce than a lot of people, and I don't just mean the Skywashed generation.

I know some decent older life long Reds who are starting to think Rafa's ran his course. But I'm certainly not ready to throw the towel in on the man for a bad half season. In fact, I think it's now time to stand up and back him all the more.

But, the thing that does bother me is the players... They are worse than the Skywashed public. They are so removed from all reality that they make the gimme-gimme-gimme it now generation look like paragons of patientce. And I'm afraid the majority of them, barring the odd exeption, are so cosseted that they actually believe all the media hysteria, and, so rather than look at themselves, they probably do agree with Stan the Collydogger.

Which is a frightening thought in itself. But I suppose that is the answer... when it becomes clear that he can't get these spoilt bastards to get stuck in and play to their potential, then his time is up.

Is that after half a season? I'd dread to think so, but the way this world and game is nowadays, who knows.

I honestly just feel like knocking me head against the wall when I look at it. And that's not me trying to take the moral high road about loyalty and integrity. It's just how I see it.
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Offline MamboGarcia

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #70 on: January 15, 2010, 04:52:18 pm »
                        Reina
Johnson   Carragher  Agger   Aurelio
              Mascherano
                              Aquilani
Rodriguez     Gerrard           Riera
                      Torres

Subs: Cavalieri, Skrtel, Insua, Lucas, Yossi, Kuyt, Ngog

Injuries, confidence and, as a result, form, have been the story of the saeson.
Benitez should only be judged when something like the above has lost the plot.

This team above can kick any teams arse week in, week out. This is the team that Benitez built.

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #71 on: January 15, 2010, 04:54:14 pm »
I love you Sabu Pundit. RAWK has proper cheered me up today!

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #72 on: January 15, 2010, 04:59:28 pm »
                        Reina
Johnson   Carragher  Agger   Aurelio
              Mascherano
                              Aquilani
Rodriguez     Gerrard           Riera
                      Torres

Subs: Cavalieri, Skrtel, Insua, Lucas, Yossi, Kuyt, Ngog

Injuries, confidence and, as a result, form, have been the story of the saeson.
Benitez should only be judged when something like the above has lost the plot.

This team above can kick any teams arse week in, week out. This is the team that Benitez built.
Been saying elsewhere, and NOT counting Aquilani, shit, even counting Insua as first choice LB if you want, have we had our 'BEST 11' fit for even TWO games in a row this season? I don't mean like Reading fit, with Nando and Torres limping off, or recovering from injuries (indeed, according to Rafa they've been slightly crocked since the start, but even then) ...just TWO games?

I don't think we have, you know. Not fully fit, not the first choices, not last season's team but with Johnson, Lucas and Insua in for the people they've replaced. Maybe we shouldn't be doing this bad, but honestly, if anyone told us before the season that we wouldn't have out best 11 fit for even TWO games in a row, would they really be so surprised with 5 points off the top 4 and 12 off the top, or whatever that massive, unbridgable gap of a couple of wins is now?


Offline nozza

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #73 on: January 15, 2010, 05:03:46 pm »
The Raffles can still Ride. Love it .

It's the players that need a fucking good bollocking..whinging about not being in the champs league and out of the trophy hunt, maybe if you could fucking stop a cross from getting in the box, deliver a corner, get to the twatting byline, I could go on...strolling round the park the first half against Fiorentina away, Debrechen at home..scraped a win..dire match, everybody else was panning them. Portsmouth, same thing, every other team battering them and we turn up and get played off the fuckin park.

Players need a long hard look at themselves, all of them.

an Rafa should stop fucking defending them, if they were shit say it and bollock them.



Offline Bob Loblaw

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #74 on: January 15, 2010, 05:05:42 pm »
For me it's one thing to have a poor season, get bad results, be out of the race for the title etc. But what we are witnessing right now is something else altogether. To play as badly as we have, for as long as we have? Have the players lost faith in Rafa, is Rafa capable of lifting them? I keep waiting for a response, thinking it can't get worse. 

And even if we do pick it up this second half to the season, i'll have absolutely zero confidence heading into next one that we could keep that momentum going with Rafa in charge, as we've never managed to take our form from one season into the next have we? Last year we got great results, but played woefully. You'd have to think but for those magical comebacks early on that season that last year might  have been every bit as awful as this one(given that we're so fragile mentally)? Is that what we're relying on now? Miraculous comebacks? The genius of two players to carry us?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 05:07:28 pm by Bob Loblaw »

Offline WelshKopite

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #75 on: January 15, 2010, 05:05:55 pm »
I think it's time for Rafa to step down .. here are my reasons:


1. I believe he's taken us as far as he can. We've never been that exceptional domestically with him, with the exception of last season and in particular the last 15 or so games. We've never looked remotely close to winning the league due to constant inconsistency, so what's to say in the near future we'll be any closer than we've been in the last 5 years? If we get taken over? Investment? Who knows, those things may not even materialise, so what does he change from here to make it work?

2. Our style of play. IMHO, it's pretty awful and has been under his entire reign. Once again, with the exception of the end of last season, our style of play is bland and extremely boring. I don't enjoy watching us play, no guile, no creativity, no movement, just pretty dire football in general. And please, I hope no-one comes in with stats about chances created, goals scored etc because I do follow this club and realise all that, but I feel you're kidding yourselves if you think we play decent football. I guess I was spoilt growing up in the John Barnes, Beardsley era, but I really dislike our style of play. Too mechanical, too organised, no freedom, too tactical. It's been like that since day 1 with Rafa, and 5 years on we're still playing the same.

3. His stubborness. Every manager is stubborn as someone on here stated to me before, I agree, but Rafa is over the top IMO. Its as if he will deliberatley go against whatever anyone else thinks to prove his point. Do I think the media cause no end of trouble in this regard? Yep, of course they do, but he doesn't help himself either.

4. His man-management. His skill to me lies in the tactical area, I don't think he is a good man manager. People may point to Torres, Reina and maybe a few others but there's plenty of cases where his poor man-management is evident. Take Robbie Keane as an example, a good player treated like an absolute clown by Rafa. Why? He 'may' not have been the person he wanted. But he plays for Liverpool, a seasonsoned professional, good attitude so treat the man with some dignity atleast and not humiliate him. Flip the coin, and take the Peter Crouch situation for example. Crouch was a laughing stock, people questioned why we bought him, was he good enough for LFC etc, so what did Rafa do? He played him in EVERY game. Why? Because Rafa wanted to prove a point, and prove that Crouch could be an excellent player. But Keane? Rafa wanted to prove another point to the owners, so he destroyed his career. Crouch didn't score for 15 games I think, something like that, Keane was average at best I agree, but was never given the same chance. I look at the players that have left the club under him, and they all tell a similar story of his strange, stand-offish ways and his complete disregard for them. Look at the successful managers who have won the league here, have you ever seen an ex-player openly critisize them when they have left?  Alex Ferguson? Wenger? Mourhino? You may find an odd player, but with Rafa, there are plenty of examples. Do I honestly feel a Mr Alex Ferguson, or Wenger, or Mourhino would get more out of our top players at the moment? Yes I do, 100%. The time for tactics is slowly getting thrown out the window and some passion and belief really needs to come to the forefront, I don't think he can do this.

5. His want of control. This was a big issue towards the end of last season. I want, I want, I want. Everything has changed from a background staffing perspective, the entire team were sacked I believe. Hard-working people, some born and bred in Liverpool, those that had more passion for this club than their replacements, but just thrown away like it didn't matter. So where has it got us? Nowhere it seems at the moment, absolutley nowhere. I have read on the official LFC site plenty of times about new coaches or a new member of Rafa's team being interviewed or welcomed to the club. That's great, but do you think these positions just become available? Someone has to lose out, and that's life I guess, but from a footballing perspective, it doesn't seem to have proved to fruitful. I keep reading on this site, it's not the "Liverpool Way", at what level is that applicable then? Only at management level? It's fine to sack and get rid of people who we don't really know about? I guess that is the 'Liverpool Way' is it? Let's be fair from all perspectives and EVERYONE associated with our club.




I could post more but I have to leave work soon. Feel free to let me know your thoughts, cheers.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 05:29:46 pm by WelshKopite »

Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #76 on: January 15, 2010, 05:08:01 pm »
Maybe we shouldn't be doing this bad, but honestly, if anyone told us before the season that we wouldn't have out best 11 fit for even TWO games in a row, would they really be so surprised with 5 points off the top 4 and 12 off the top, or whatever that massive, unbridgable gap of a couple of wins is now?

Pretty said this is another thread. If someone would have told me in the summer about all the injuries and misfortune we would have swirling about and yet we'd still have some European competition to play for and be five points off fourth, I'd have taken it under the circumstances.

The Raffles can still Ride. Love it .

It's the players that need a fucking good bollocking..whinging about not being in the champs league and out of the trophy hunt, maybe if you could fucking stop a cross from getting in the box, deliver a corner, get to the twatting byline, I could go on...strolling round the park the first half against Fiorentina away, Debrechen at home..scraped a win..dire match, everybody else was panning them. Portsmouth, same thing, every other team battering them and we turn up and get played off the fuckin park.

Players need a long hard look at themselves, all of them.

an Rafa should stop fucking defending them, if they were shit say it and bollock them.


I agree. The problem is when he did bollock some senior players after the Villa game they went off whinging to their mates in the media.

Offline Stanfo

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #77 on: January 15, 2010, 05:18:23 pm »
For me the crux of the matter is are our performances, even with the current players available acceptable? Is how a team plays the ultimate responsibility of the manager? Can with the limited resources, due to injuries, shit players etc, we/Rafa turn the season aroound?

For me the teams performances are shite and nowhere near acceptable. Rafa takes the plaudits and so must also take the criticism for the inability of the team to perform anywhere near its potential. Finally I am sadly not sure Rafa has the qualities to turn around a situation which needs strong motivational skills.

I hope I am wrong and would be happy to have Rafa manage us for seasons to come if he can get us performing to the teams potential under the current financial restraints. But then again I would be happy to still have Souness, Evans and Houllier if any or all had maintained continued success for the club over the last decade or more. Sadly when you underachieve you loose your job, in any walk of life but especially football.

Offline kopilot

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #78 on: January 15, 2010, 05:23:22 pm »
Rafa to stay. period.

*I'm running out of words, but that's what I believe we and the board and the players should think of!

Offline AndrewLFC_1971

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Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #79 on: January 15, 2010, 05:25:22 pm »
I'm not blined by the media - I take no notice of the media - I see things with my own eyes - and I don't like what I see.
I would like to, I would love to see Rafa thorw up 2 fingers and prove everyone wrong but I cant see it happening based on the points I made earlier.
So,Fat Scouser just to turn this around a little - hypothetically speaking - what would have to happen for you to lose faith in Rafa ?
I'm a patient man - god knows you have to be this day and age - but my gut is telling me we need to make the change 
As i said it's most of the people who want him out can't elaborate, not all ,of which you are one, who can give reasons and be subjective not just say he's shite and should be sacked.