Topic: Doesn't matter who you vote for as long as it's for the right reasons!

[Sangria]

I'm not really talking about that or interested in starting to. I was just responding to your really bizarre question.

And as always, I'll answer my own question. We don't have the right to decide for people in other countries what they should be. That was Blair's fault, that he decided that he knew better and would decide for the Kosovans, the Sierra Leonians, the Iraqis, what they should be. Unlike him, I do not suppose that I know better, so I let people in other countries decide for themselves. I have the democratic right to decide what's what in my own country. People in other countries have their democratic right, free from our interference, to decide what's what in their countries. And if I do think that other countries should go a certain way, I'll make damn sure that my own country goes that way first.

You can answer the question if you want, as I did. But I posed it to johnno, who said that we should look beyond change in this country, towards change in other countries too. Even when our country doesn't follow that change.

[Elmo!]

And as always, I'll answer my own question. We don't have the right to decide for people in other countries what they should be. That was Blair's fault, that he decided that he knew better and would decide for the Kosovans, the Sierra Leonians, the Iraqis, what they should be. Unlike him, I do not suppose that I know better, so I let people in other countries decide for themselves. I have the democratic right to decide what's what in my own country. People in other countries have their democratic right, free from our interference, to decide what's what in their countries. And if I do think that other countries should go a certain way, I'll make damn sure that my own country goes that way first.

You can answer the question if you want, as I did. But I posed it to johnno, who said that we should look beyond change in this country, towards change in other countries too. Even when our country doesn't follow that change.

I suppose it depends what you mean when you are talking about trying to change the world. Johnno's point seemed quite vague and you addressed the question to him personally and not the government.

What about distributing Covid vaccines to poorer countries? That is changing the world.
What about boycotting South African goods during Apartheid? That is as well.
Etc etc.

It didn't seem to me that Johnno made any specific reference to military intervention or similar foreign policy.

[Sangria]

I suppose it depends what you mean when you are talking about trying to change the world. Johnno's point seemed quite vague and you addressed the question to him personally and not the government.

What about distributing Covid vaccines to poorer countries? That is changing the world.
What about boycotting South African goods during Apartheid? That is as well.
Etc etc.

It didn't seem to me that Johnno made any specific reference to military intervention or similar foreign policy.

Did you miss the bit where I said that, if I want other countries to go a certain way, I'd make sure that my own country was going that way first?

[Elmo!]

Did you miss the bit where I said that, if I want other countries to go a certain way, I'd make sure that my own country was going that way first?

No

[FlashGordon]

We've now reached the stage where it's a bad thing to want to change the world for the better. This thread/section 

[Sangria]

We've now reached the stage where it's a bad thing to want to change the world for the better. This thread/section 

How do you know it's for the better? The last British government of Hong Kong commissioned a light railway system for Hong Kong to link the various parts of Hong Kong together. It's a good thing to improve the infrastructure of the colony, to leave behind a positive legacy, right?

Hong Kongers complained about the waste of money, a light railway system that the British never saw fit to inflict on themselves, but felt free to spend Hong Kong taxpayers' money on as a vanity project.

If you're not going to do the same to Britain, what right do you have to impose what you think is right on other countries? Have you asked these other countries whether they think it's right? Do they get a say?

[FlashGordon]

How do you know it's for the better? The last British government of Hong Kong commissioned a light railway system for Hong Kong to link the various parts of Hong Kong together. It's a good thing to improve the infrastructure of the colony, to leave behind a positive legacy, right?

Hong Kongers complained about the waste of money, a light railway system that the British never saw fit to inflict on themselves, but felt free to spend Hong Kong taxpayers' money on as a vanity project.

If you're not going to do the same to Britain, what right do you have to impose what you think is right on other countries? Have you asked these other countries whether they think it's right? Do they get a say?

You're talking about specific policies and decisions that were made. As far as I can see Johnno made a general statement about changing the world and you've somehow managed to take umbrage with it. For the life of me I can't fathom why.

[Sangria]

You're talking about specific policies and decisions that were made. As far as I can see Johnno made a general statement about changing the world and you've somehow managed to take umbrage with it. For the life of me I can't fathom why.

Because he reckons he knows best, that not being able to persuade Britain to adopt his ideas still leaves him with leeway to inflict those ideas on other countries. I have the democratic right to argue with fellow Britons over how I think Britain should be. I do not have that democratic right to push those idea on people in other countries. If I think that something should be the case, I think that my own country should take the lead, to show the world that this works out. If I can't persuade my own country, I have no right to push these ideas elsewhere.

Can you tell me what's wrong with the above?

[Elmo!]

Because he reckons he knows best, that not being able to persuade Britain to adopt his ideas still leaves him with leeway to inflict those ideas on other countries. I have the democratic right to argue with fellow Britons over how I think Britain should be. I do not have that democratic right to push those idea on people in other countries. If I think that something should be the case, I think that my own country should take the lead, to show the world that this works out. If I can't persuade my own country, I have no right to push these ideas elsewhere.

Can you tell me what's wrong with the above?

Why are you just talking about pushing ideas on other countries? That wasn't what Johnno said.

[Sangria]

Why are you just talking about pushing ideas on other countries? That wasn't what Johnno said.

I asked him how he supposed he would make these changes while the Tories were in charge. He said that I need to look beyond that and campaign to change the world.

Why are you so eager to answer for johnno, yet simultaneously eager to state that johnno didn't say this and that? I'd be happy for him to answer the question that I posed to him. If you want me to have a good idea of what he's saying, you could let him say it himself. I certainly don't expect anyone but him to be the best person to respond to a question posed to him. If he does respond, I expect him to have a better idea than you do, better idea than I do, what he means.

[Elmo!]

I asked him how he supposed he would make these changes while the Tories were in charge. He said that I need to look beyond that and campaign to change the world.

Why are you so eager to answer for johnno, yet simultaneously eager to state that johnno didn't say this and that? I'd be happy for him to answer the question that I posed to him. If you want me to have a good idea of what he's saying, you could let him say it himself. I certainly don't expect anyone but him to be the best person to respond to a question posed to him. If he does respond, I expect him to have a better idea than you do, better idea than I do, what he means.

I'm not answering for Johnno, I'm just querying your response to Johnno. He can speak for himself, as can I.m I don't think me posting here is preventing him from answering you, is it?

The post of yours I was responding to was you demanding what right Johnno had to "change the world". It's an utterly bizarre question.

[Sangria]

I'm not answering for Johnno, I'm just querying your response to Johnno. He can speak for himself, as can I.m I don't think me posting here is preventing him from answering you, is it?

The post of yours I was responding to was you demanding what right Johnno had to "change the world". It's an utterly bizarre question.

"Then what a sterile place "your world" must be. And just not getting the relevance of your comment "we're out of Europe".At the risk of being labelled a Red not quite under the bed I recommend this profound Marxist quote to you. "The philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways. The point, however, is to change it"."

"How do you change it with the Tories in power?"

"Think bigger think wider and campaign to change the world - that was what the quote referenced after all!!"

That's the exchange. Since you take issue with my reading of his line, can you explain how else I should read it?

[Elmo!]

"Then what a sterile place "your world" must be. And just not getting the relevance of your comment "we're out of Europe".At the risk of being labelled a Red not quite under the bed I recommend this profound Marxist quote to you. "The philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways. The point, however, is to change it"."

"How do you change it with the Tories in power?"

"Think bigger think wider and campaign to change the world - that was what the quote referenced after all!!"

That's the exchange. Since you take issue with my reading of his line, can you explain how else I should read it?

Probably just not read it as being exclusively about imposing our ideas on the rest of the world.

[Sangria]

Probably just not read it as being exclusively about imposing our ideas on the rest of the world.

His line about changing the wider world was in response to my question of how he proposed to change things while the Tories were still in power. So if it's not about the rest of the world, could you propose an answer to the question of how to change things in Britain whilst leaving the Tories in power?

[TSC]

Labour reshuffle detail

https://news.sky.com/story/labour-reshuffle-yvette-cooper-promoted-to-shadow-home-secretary-and-lisa-nandy-to-shadow-michael-gove-on-levelling-up-brief-12482646

[Elmo!]

His line about changing the wider world was in response to my question of how he proposed to change things while the Tories were still in power. So if it's not about the rest of the world, could you propose an answer to the question of how to change things in Britain whilst leaving the Tories in power?

I'm not here to answer for Johnno - you said you wanted him to answer your questions and complaimed about me being eager to speak for him apparently.

I don't disagree with the fact that if you want to change things you generally need to be in power (though the fact the Tories have had to make so many U-turns shows that is not always the case - if you make the arguments and get the public onside, their reaction to Tory actions can cause them to change their minds).

That wasn't the issue I took with your post that I initially responded to though.

[Sangria]

I'm not here to answer for Johnno - you said you wanted him to answer your questions and complaimed about me being eager to speak for him apparently.

I don't disagree with the fact that if you want to change things you generally need to be in power (though the fact the Tories have had to make so many U-turns shows that is not always the case - if you make the arguments and get the public onside, their reaction to Tory actions can cause them to change their minds).

That wasn't the issue I took with your post that I initially responded to though.

I think that to make the changes johnno talks about, in the UK, you need to get the Tories out of power first. Hence my question "How do you change it with the Tories in power?". His reply: "Think bigger think wider and campaign to change the world - that was what the quote referenced after all!!". Since it doesn't answer my question of how to change things (in the UK) whilst leaving the Tories in power, I take his line about "think(ing) wider and campaign to change the world" refers to the world that can be changed even whilst leaving the Tories in power. Ie. the world that isn't governed by the Tories.

[Elmo!]

I think that to make the changes johnno talks about, in the UK, you need to get the Tories out of power first. Hence my question "How do you change it with the Tories in power?". His reply: "Think bigger think wider and campaign to change the world - that was what the quote referenced after all!!". Since it doesn't answer my question of how to change things (in the UK) whilst leaving the Tories in power, I take his line about "think(ing) wider and campaign to change the world" refers to the world that can be changed even whilst leaving the Tories in power. Ie. the world that isn't governed by the Tories.

RIght, but why do you leap from that to demanding why he has the right to change the world? And seemingly thinking by changing the world he is just talking about imposing his ideals and beliefs on other coutnries? I'm not arguing with you about Tories or the need to be in power - I don't really disagree with you there.

Honestly this whole argument is so bloody weird... wish I hadn't said anyhing any more. 

[Father Ted]

I'm sure voting for the most Tory-like elements of the Labour Party, who seemingly agree with the Tories on most things and simply compete to see who can implement the same collections of policies will change things.

This version of Labour is fucking dreadful. Large parts of the PLP have already shown they'll happily work with the Tories and their press to sabotage any hope for socialism or a genuine alternative under the last leader, so they can't even wheel out the hoary old 'oooh, you better vote for us or the Tories will get in' stuff they've blagged us with before. They were happy for the Tories to get in. They fought their own leader harder than they usually do the opposition.

It's two flavours of the same shit, with Labour as the boring version.

No hope for any change, no real improvements (that can't be washed away within a fortnight of the Tories retaking power, should that dullard Starmer ever get close to actually taking power) - just the same old crap rebranded as something supposedly good or exciting. New New Labour. The Blairite revivial no one but they themselves actually asked for or wanted.

Absolute sham of a democracy, with Labour playing their role to reduce our options down to virtually nothing. Half of them are only in it for the consultancy gigs they can get afterwards.

[Sangria]

RIght, but why do you leap from that to demanding why he has the right to change the world? And seemingly thinking by changing the world he is just talking about imposing his ideals and beliefs on other coutnries? I'm not arguing with you about Tories or the need to be in power - I don't really disagree with you there.

Honestly this whole argument is so bloody weird... wish I hadn't said anyhing any more. 

I don't think we have the right to change the world outside our country if we can't change our own. I've always opposed our presumption of knowing best for other people, going back to Blair and his foreign adventures. Having talked with former colonials, I've fully taken on board post-colonialism, and recognise the presumption that we know best. If I do think that, I think the onus is on us to prove it by testing our ideas on ourselves. If we're not going to do that, then we have no right to test those ideas on others instead.

[Elmo!]

I don't think we have the right to change the world outside our country if we can't change our own. I've always opposed our presumption of knowing best for other people, going back to Blair and his foreign adventures. Having talked with former colonials, I've fully taken on board post-colonialism, and recognise the presumption that we know best. If I do think that, I think the onus is on us to prove it by testing our ideas on ourselves. If we're not going to do that, then we have no right to test those ideas on others instead.

Again you are just going back to imporing ideas or governments or military interventions on other countries. Why are you just focusing on that?

[Sangria]

Again you are just going back to imporing ideas or governments or military interventions on other countries. Why are you just focusing on that?

If it's not about imposing ideas, what else does changing the world (outside Britain) mean? If you've talked to former colonials, the message is quite clear. If you're not invited, and you're not going to be invited, keep your nose out of their country's affairs. Just because you think you know best doesn't mean that they have to agree with you. You have the right to know best in your own country. You don't have the right to know best in their country.

[TepidT2O]

I’m quite interested to read the specious claims of facism I’ve read here.  Because there’s a very real contrast to what you hear from the tories.  They don’t like Johnson partly because everyone knows he’s a vacuous c*nt, but also because he’s not very  Tory.  Where’s the low taxes? they ask.

My reflection  is this. For all this pompous bunkum people talk about Tory lite etc etc. Johnson has hit upon a problem for electability. 
People want well funded public services much as the rest of Europe have, and he’s realised that strangling funding to them as Cameron and Osbourne did is not a vote winner. But this is far from Tory.
And this was the transformative effect of the last Labour government.  So radically did it change the nature of public services (health, education and social care) that we came to expect this as the norm.  No longer were people prepared to wait 3 years for a hip op, they’d seen what we could do, and that there was no excuse for this ever happening.
So the last Labour government made it very hard for the tories to enact Tory policies, and instead they’re shackled to Labour style public services. So don’t give me some half cocked drivel about Tory lite.  Labour changed lives.

[Elmo!]

If it's not about imposing ideas, what else does changing the world (outside Britain) mean? If you've talked to former colonials, the message is quite clear. If you're not invited, and you're not going to be invited, keep your nose out of their country's affairs. Just because you think you know best doesn't mean that they have to agree with you. You have the right to know best in your own country. You don't have the right to know best in their country.

As an example I gave earlier - distributing more of the Covid vaccine.

[Sangria]

As an example I gave earlier - distributing more of the Covid vaccine.

We used the vaccine on ourselves first. We took the lead and showed that our idea worked. We didn't impose our idea on others without undertaking it ourselves. I have no problem with that.

[Elmo!]

We used the vaccine on ourselves first. We took the lead and showed that our idea worked. We didn't impose our idea on others without undertaking it ourselves. I have no problem with that.

Precisely it is something that could be done to change the world. Yet you question Johnno's right to campaign for it.

[Sangria]

Precisely it is something that could be done to change the world. Yet you question Johnno's right to campaign for it.

"We used the vaccine on ourselves first. We took the lead and showed that our idea worked. We didn't impose our idea on others without undertaking it ourselves."

Have you ever encountered that anti-colonialist argument I stated earlier, that the British are only too happy to push things on the colonials that they wouldn't have themselves?

[Elmo!]

"We used the vaccine on ourselves first. We took the lead and showed that our idea worked. We didn't impose our idea on others without undertaking it ourselves."

Have you ever encountered that anti-colonialist argument I stated earlier, that the British are only too happy to push things on the colonials that they wouldn't have themselves?

What are you talking about? 

You questioned Johnnos right to do anything to change the world.

We have just established something you agree could be done and you have no problem with.

[oldfordie]

We never imposed the vaccine on any country, poorer countries criticised the more wealthier countries for buying up more than they needed, we were accused of hoarding.
We didn't just give the vaccine to help other countries, we had to fight the virus all over the world to reduce the spread to our country.

[ianburns252]

What are you talking about? 

You questioned Johnnos right to do anything to change the world.

We have just established something you agree could be done and you have no problem with.

I think the take would be that this is collaborating with the world as opposed to changing it.

We are providing something they want/need rather than something that we have decided they want/need

[OOS]

It’s crap - he said/she said. And the media have their bone.

I have to say, not impressed with the team around her over the last year. Too many snide briefings, and in the grand scheme of things, pointless. Too many in the party enjoy having journo contact in thier phone and sending them petty shite. Very 'Westminster bubble' stuff.

Actually, think the reshuffle is good. It was needed. The weaker members of the shadow cabinet have been moved on. Time will tell if the replacements are up to it, but they can't be any worse. Home Sec and Health needed new faces, and the replacements are an upgrade. Moving Nandy to shadow Gove is a good move too.

[Elmo!]

I think the take would be that this is collaborating with the world as opposed to changing it.

We are providing something they want/need rather than something that we have decided they want/need

Right, but that just proves my point. Its something we can do more on,  that Sangria is agreeing is a good thing.

An example of changing the world.

So my point is why question the right of someone to try to do that?

[Elmo!]

I feel like Bob Geldof talking so much about changing the world. 

[Sangria]

Right, but that just proves my point. Its something we can do more on,  that Sangria is agreeing is a good thing.

An example of changing the world.

So my point is why question the right of someone to try to do that?

You keep missing out a key point of mine. We can change the world if we change ours first. Can you take on this point, and reconsider your question?

[Elmo!]

You keep missing out a key point of mine. We can change the world if we change ours first. Can you take on this point, and reconsider your question?

Well sure, but there are plenty of things an individual can campaign on, regardless of whether the Tories are still in power or not because we have already done it. You questioned the right to do that.

[Sangria]

Well sure, but there are plenty of things an individual can campaign on, regardless of whether the Tories are still in power or not because we have already done it. You questioned the right to do that.

Are they sure they are right on what they are campaigning on? Have they asked the people they are campaigning for?

Have you talked with former colonials who are resentful of Britain's continuing part in their affairs? It's an eye opener.

[ianburns252]

Right, but that just proves my point. Its something we can do more on,  that Sangria is agreeing is a good thing.

An example of changing the world.

So my point is why question the right of someone to try to do that?

I think there is a case of talking at crossed purposes or interpreting things slightly differently from each other as it does seem like you generally are in agreement.

My reading of Sangria's point is

1) if country A asks country B for help/aid/whatever you call it and it isn't them asking for a bunch of nukes then go ahead and do it

2) if country B has successfully implemented a policy or technology or idea that has made a meaningful improvement to lives there then crack on and see if you can convince country A to get on board but don't be pissed off if they say no

3) if Country B thinks it would be just swell if Country A would do a few things for them, some which might even make Country B's life easier or fit an ideological stance akin to "do as I say  nott as I do" then it probably isn't right to get involved

Point 3 would, from my reading, line up with Sangria's references to colonialism

[oldfordie]

I think Sangria has raised a simple argument, no idea why it's getting so much resistance, we can't ask a country to do something we aren't prepared to do ourselves, this actually became a big issue only last year when Johnsons government publicly stated they are willing to break International Law. Labour and others told them we will loose the right to preach to any other country about breaking International law when we have broken international law ourselves. we will be told to put or own house in order before preaching to others.

[Elmo!]

Are they sure they are right on what they are campaigning on? Have they asked the people they are campaigning for?

Have you talked with former colonials who are resentful of Britain's continuing part in their affairs? It's an eye opener.

You talking in specifics again when it was you that made the absolutist statement. I agree there are bad examples oftrying to change the world, I never said otherwise.

[Robinred]

Sangria & Elmo.

Please take it to PMs - you’re clogging up the thread with your swordplay, and it’s become tedious.

As for Father Ted’s little grenade:

“...Tory-like elements of the Labour Party, who seemingly agree with the Tories on most things...

This version of Labour is fucking dreadful. Large parts of the PLP have already shown they'll happily work with the Tories and their press to sabotage any hope for socialism or a genuine alternative under the last leader ...They were happy for the Tories to get in.They fought their own leader harder than they usually do the opposition...”

Leaving aside the last sentence’s failure to acknowledge Corbyn’s voting record before becoming leader, the bolded sentence is just risible.