Topic: Liverpool's Midfield

[bornandbRED]

A lot of people on here called these events in the summer, and were lambasted widely for doing so.

[Gili Gulu]

Jordan and Fabinho both really struggling. Moving the ball too slowly, hardly winning a 50-50 and keep losing second balls to the opposition.

[Rahul21]

A lot of people on here called these events in the summer, and were lambasted widely for doing so.

Yep.

[Legoland]

Jordan and Fabinho both really struggling. Moving the ball too slowly, hardly winning a 50-50 and keep losing second balls to the opposition.

Fabinho was fine. In fact he looked most likely of progressing the ball forward of the three in midfield when thats not even his primary role.

[Knight]

Why did it take Klopp so long to change the midfield? We had 5 subs, it could honestly have happened as soon as arsenal went down to 10. Jones did more offensively in his 34 minutes than the other 3 did between them all game.

[Scottymuser]

Fabinho was fine. In fact he looked most likely of progressing the ball forward of the three in midfield when thats not even his primary role.

Fabinho was ok - he gave the ball away on numerous occasions, and his passing was ok.  I don't think he did much better than Hendo, although he was definitely better than Milner.

Also - everyone going on about how good Curtis' spell was - other than the AM game, I don't think I've seen Keita play a game and not been at least that good at bringing the ball forward, taking players on, creating chances, etc.  Yet he continually gets all the stick in the world

[RyanBabel19]

Fabinho was ok - he gave the ball away on numerous occasions, and his passing was ok.  I don't think he did much better than Hendo, although he was definitely better than Milner.

Also - everyone going on about how good Curtis' spell was - other than the AM game, I don't think I've seen Keita play a game and not been at least that good at bringing the ball forward, taking players on, creating chances, etc.  Yet he continually gets all the stick in the world

Its no coincidence they both bring what we lack hugely, players who advance the ball upfield quickly instead of taking 18 touches to be closed down and cut off all your options. Jones got the ball once soon as he came on and the stark difference was there

[Perkinsonian]

Why did it take Klopp so long to change the midfield? We had 5 subs, it could honestly have happened as soon as arsenal went down to 10. Jones did more offensively in his 34 minutes than the other 3 did between them all game.

Klopp is less concerned with a quick success than with a long-term positive atmosphere in the team. Milner would not forgive Klopp if he changed him after 40 minutes.

[Knight]

Klopp is less concerned with a quick success than with a long-term positive atmosphere in the team. Milner would not forgive Klopp if he changed him after 40 minutes.

I mused at the possibility that he’s more likely to pull Keita early because Keita won’t kick up a stink whereas others would and got shot down for it. But at a certain point purely footballing reasons cease to be credible.

[Nick110581]

Klopp is less concerned with a quick success than with a long-term positive atmosphere in the team. Milner would not forgive Klopp if he changed him after 40 minutes.

Wow. Time to leave the thread.

[Perkinsonian]

Wow. Time to leave the thread.

It's his style of management so why are you so upset? Few coaches want to have such a conflict with influential players on the team, and Klopp is definitely not one of them.

[Fromola]

Midfield needs an overhaul (as it did last year, it's not about missing Gini).

It's the area of the team/squad we've made a bit of a mess of. Even 5 years ago Henderson and Milner in the same midfield didn't work. We made a great buy in Fabinho which eventually made Fab/Hendo/Gini the main midfield for the glory years. Keita, Ox and Thiago signings haven't worked out (being any combination of injuries/fitness/tactically) and we're back to Milner and Henderson starting in the same midfield in big games 5 years on.

Be ruthless in terms of ins and outs and make some dynamic signings in there.

[Nick110581]

It's his style of management so why are you so upset?

Because it’s bullshit

Milner is the ultimate professional

[rushyman]

I think Milner might have got inside jurgens heart strings

It was funny at West Ham when he kicked off and we scored but he’s seems to be raging every time he’s swung off. God knows what he’s like when he’s not in the team

Lads got to realise he’s 36 and not only that but he’s no lock picker either. So playing him with Hendo aswell is just bizarre. To me anyway, but wtf do I know I’m no CL and PL winning manager

[Dave McCoy]

I don't care what midfield you put out there, if Trent is going to be that bad then the team is going to look bad creatively no matter what.  Not to absolve Milner and Hendo today as they were not good.  But we don't expect them to be the creative fulcrum of the team in combination with Salah which Trent is and he just was really bad today.

[Perkinsonian]

Because it’s bullshit

Milner is the ultimate professional

Have you played in any professional team in your life? Professionals demand respect from themselves and for themselves. And you do not arouse respect with your comments.

As far as I know, for every professional player, an early removal from the pitch is an insult to their sense of professionalism driven by ambition and I assume Milner is no exception to this rule.

[Scottymuser]

Its no coincidence they both bring what we lack hugely, players who advance the ball upfield quickly instead of taking 18 touches to be closed down and cut off all your options. Jones got the ball once soon as he came on and the stark difference was there

Ox did eff all - he produced one over hit cross, and gave the ball away leading to an Aresenal half-chance.  Jones I'd agree - but he did *no more* than Keita has done every single match - and yet gets pilloried for it.  So my point was why praise Jones and then slate Keita (like most - not saying you are one who does this)?  He also, in 35 mins against a 10 men Arsenal side, as good as he looked, created zero chances and zero shots on goal.  So didn't actually produce anything - just looked better doing it than Milner.  Jones also has had some of the worst midfield games I've seen from on of our players -  likely due to age, inexperience and being in and out of the team so excusable.  Ox is just mediocre these days - it's been legitimately years since I've seen him put together a midfield performance worthy of a top 4-6 side.

You only have to look back at the Chelsea & Leics games - midfields with Hendo/Fab/Milner (or Ox in the case of Leics) who produced nothing going forward at all; Keita came on and in both games beat more players, and set up 2 chances (more than the other 3 combined) in 20/30 mins. 

I have been saying for years (at least before Gini left, probably before last season kicked off) that a MF with a 3 of Fab/Hendo/Milner  (and at the time, I included Gini in place of Milner) was not good enough to really break down teams, and leaves too much responsibility on our (wonderful) full backs game in, game out. 

[mrantarctica]

Fabinho was ok - he gave the ball away on numerous occasions, and his passing was ok.  I don't think he did much better than Hendo, although he was definitely better than Milner.

Also - everyone going on about how good Curtis' spell was - other than the AM game, I don't think I've seen Keita play a game and not been at least that good at bringing the ball forward, taking players on, creating chances, etc.  Yet he continually gets all the stick in the world

Not saying I agree with the criticism, but it might be because we paid 50m for him and expect him, at 26, and after 4 seasons at the club, to be the finished article and make an immediate impact. Curtis, at 20, and with half the games of Naby under his belt, is still seen as a bit of an academy prospect and so gets forgiven readily if we see inconsistencies or rough parts to his game.

Reputation counts as much as anything with football fans, and people on here (and in the media) clearly have their favourite narratives. Hopefully Naby comes back from AFCON with no injuries and is ready to go for a consistent run of games for us. We need some freshening up in there because the Hendo Fab Milner axis is looking a bit tired and short of ideas and spark.

[theMilkman]

Reputation counts as much as anything with football fans, and people on here (and in the media) clearly have their favourite narratives. Hopefully Naby comes back from AFCON with no injuries and is ready to go for a consistent run of games for us. We need some freshening up in there because the Hendo Fab Milner axis is looking a bit tired and short of ideas and spark.

Not having a go at you, but I'm genuinely amazed that people still have hope for this. I could be wrong, but it reminds me of when people had hope for sturridge staying fit.

[PoetryInMotion]

Jones also has had some of the worst midfield games I've seen from on of our players

Hang on there mate. I'm guessing you haven't seen the likes of Diao, Spearing, Poulsen, Cole, Adam etc.

If you are blaming critics of Keita for being hyperbolic, you are not coming across very well there, mate.

[Xanderzone]

We really need Jones to step up between now and May.

The talent is definitely there, let's see it.

[jillcwhomever]

It's his style of management so why are you so upset? Few coaches want to have such a conflict with influential players on the team, and Klopp is definitely not one of them.

If you seriously think any coach can win things the way Klopp has throughout his career without dealing with players the joke is on you.

[Kalito]

Ox did eff all - he produced one over hit cross, and gave the ball away leading to an Aresenal half-chance.  Jones I'd agree - but he did *no more* than Keita has done every single match - and yet gets pilloried for it.  So my point was why praise Jones and then slate Keita (like most - not saying you are one who does this)?  He also, in 35 mins against a 10 men Arsenal side, as good as he looked, created zero chances and zero shots on goal.  So didn't actually produce anything - just looked better doing it than Milner.  Jones also has had some of the worst midfield games I've seen from on of our players -  likely due to age, inexperience and being in and out of the team so excusable.  Ox is just mediocre these days - it's been legitimately years since I've seen him put together a midfield performance worthy of a top 4-6 side.

You only have to look back at the Chelsea & Leics games - midfields with Hendo/Fab/Milner (or Ox in the case of Leics) who produced nothing going forward at all; Keita came on and in both games beat more players, and set up 2 chances (more than the other 3 combined) in 20/30 mins. 

I have been saying for years (at least before Gini left, probably before last season kicked off) that a MF with a 3 of Fab/Hendo/Milner  (and at the time, I included Gini in place of Milner) was not good enough to really break down teams, and leaves too much responsibility on our (wonderful) full backs game in, game out.

What a load of nonesense.

Name these games please?

The kid's breakout season sees him playing a lot of games due to half the team being decimated to injuries and midfield players having to play in defence. There was no stability in the team.

Considering all of that and the job Klopp requires our midfield players to play, IMO he's done extremely well and he has matured so much in a very short space of time.

I've yet to see a game from Jones where I've thought "that's one of the worst games i've seen from one of our players".

IMO he's been of our better performers last season. The season has hardly started for him due to injuries.

This kid is gonna be a superstar.

[royhendo]

everyone going on about how good Curtis' spell was - other than the AM game, I don't think I've seen Keita play a game and not been at least that good at bringing the ball forward, taking players on, creating chances, etc.  Yet he continually gets all the stick in the world

You were slagging someone off for not knowing who Kounde was the other day Scotty boy, yet you can't see what's going on with Curtis Jones. The fella's output is already elite, and he's 20.

[RyanBabel19]

Ox did eff all - he produced one over hit cross, and gave the ball away leading to an Aresenal half-chance.  Jones I'd agree - but he did *no more* than Keita has done every single match - and yet gets pilloried for it.  So my point was why praise Jones and then slate Keita (like most - not saying you are one who does this)?  He also, in 35 mins against a 10 men Arsenal side, as good as he looked, created zero chances and zero shots on goal.  So didn't actually produce anything - just looked better doing it than Milner.  Jones also has had some of the worst midfield games I've seen from on of our players -  likely due to age, inexperience and being in and out of the team so excusable.  Ox is just mediocre these days - it's been legitimately years since I've seen him put together a midfield performance worthy of a top 4-6 side.

You only have to look back at the Chelsea & Leics games - midfields with Hendo/Fab/Milner (or Ox in the case of Leics) who produced nothing going forward at all; Keita came on and in both games beat more players, and set up 2 chances (more than the other 3 combined) in 20/30 mins. 

I have been saying for years (at least before Gini left, probably before last season kicked off) that a MF with a 3 of Fab/Hendo/Milner  (and at the time, I included Gini in place of Milner) was not good enough to really break down teams, and leaves too much responsibility on our (wonderful) full backs game in, game out. 

Didn't mention Ox performance at all last night so no idea why that's even been mentioned.

Never mentioned anything negative about Keita either, in fact my post was praising his attributes if anything, no idea why people bashing him has been mentioned using my post as a quote i'm constantly discussing his ability to advance the ball, much the same as Jones. I've not disagreed that both should be praised.

Jones played a completely different position, laid the ball on for shots from good positions a couple of times actually it's just not his fault others chose to pass again instead of taking on the shot e.g. Hendersons terrible pass to Minamino. It was nothing to do with 'looking better at it' he was opening spaces by taking risks and playing the ball to players in space instead of just safe passes a few yards, he was creating, it just wasn't tap ins.

I'd very much like to hear these abysmal midfield performances from Jones as i've only got memories of a few whereby he could have been better but that looked pretty standard for a young CM in a top side.

Again i've not mentioned this midfield 3 apart from saying its no coincidence Jones and Keita bring more creativity, you're posting as i've i've been praising that trio to the high heavens

[Knight]

There’s a group of posters on here who typically want to see our press resistant, ball progresser and more naturally creative 8s included in every team selection. If they praise Jones, they’ll normally also be the ones praising Keita. So much is about balance. And certain midfields give it to us, others very much don’t. If you see this, there’s no point criticising others who see it too. The reality is we have 4 8s* who can offer genuine penetration against a low block, choosing to not to play the only one available yesterday, and then waiting till the 56th minute to bring him on, was a weird decision. 

*Although Thiago typically plays quite a long way from goal so against a low block he’s more likely to be recycling possession and keeping control.

[Stockholm Syndrome]

There’s a group of posters on here who typically want to see our press resistant, ball progresser and more naturally creative 8s included in every team selection. If they praise Jones, they’ll normally also be the ones praising Keita. So much is about balance. And certain midfields give it to us, others very much don’t. If you see this, there’s no point criticising others who see it too. The reality is we have 4 8s* who can offer genuine penetration against a low block, choosing to not to play the only one available yesterday, and then waiting till the 56th minute to bring him on, was a weird decision. 

*Although Thiago typically plays quite a long way from goal so against a low block he’s more likely to be recycling possession and keeping control.

The big problem is of those 8's, two of the most senior ones cannot be relied upon due to fitness, the other 2 (Jones and Elliot) are young lads understandably without consistency, who you cannot fully rely on (and one is injured currently). You could even argue Ox falls into this catagory too but he isn't up to our standard right now.

Yeah we have 4, maybe even 5 of these 8's, but at the moment, none of them can be completely relied upon for version reasons.

[PEG2K]

This kid is gonna be a superstar.

He's likely not though.

Some young players look exciting when they first break out to the team. They are confident with the ball at their feet, don't look out of place among the first teamers, etc. but then that's it. They just hit a plateau. I'm afraid Jones is one of those guys. He does everything fairly well, but doesn't have an outstanding attribute. He's not strong, he's not fast, therefore can't really beat a man despite his nice footwork, doesn't have a killer pass in him, doesn't offer much of a goal threat.

At 20 Trent was already a starter for us, providing 12 assists a season. Foden at 20 was a regular starter at City despite their ridiculous squad, scoring 9 in the process. Those are the players who can become superstars. Jones is about to be 21 soon and he has done nothing special. The best we could hope for is him becoming a Henderson/Lallana type player (good but not great, and definitely not superstar).

It'd be foolish to bank on the likes of Jones and Elliott to become the future mainstay of our midfield.

[FLRed67]

Many clubs in the world would offer up a grandma or two to have Curtis Jones and Harvey Elliot in their squad. They, along with Kweeveen, and a couple of the other lads that got to play the other day, are the future of the club. If that makes you nervous, you'll need to pour yourself a stiff one and deal with.

[RyanBabel19]

He's likely not though.

Some young players look exciting when they first break out to the team. They are confident with the ball at their feet, don't look out of place among the first teamers, etc. but then that's it. They just hit a plateau. I'm afraid Jones is one of those guys. He does everything fairly well, but doesn't have an outstanding attribute. He's not strong, he's not fast, therefore can't really beat a man despite his nice footwork, doesn't have a killer pass in him, doesn't offer much of a goal threat.

At 20 Trent was already a starter for us, providing 12 assists a season. Foden at 20 was a regular starter at City despite their ridiculous squad, scoring 9 in the process. Those are the players who can become superstars. Jones is about to be 21 soon and he has done nothing special. The best we could hope for is him becoming a Henderson/Lallana type player (good but not great, and definitely not superstar).

It'd be foolish to bank on the likes of Jones and Elliott to become the future mainstay of our midfield.

So Garcia, Silva, Bernardo Silva are/were particularly fast or particularly strong? There's a lot more to beating a man than that. If you watch Jones any decent amount of games you'll see just how much and how often he takes his man on, as of July last year he was in the top 3 percentile for ball progression, do you know what that is? Pretty much impossible for someone who someone who 'cant beat a man'. Assuming you missed the performance vs Porto as well

Your post is well summed up in that you've called Jordan Henderson who captained a side to back to back Champions League finals, winning one and then a Premier League the following season turning in outstanding performances as good not great

[MonsLibpool]

He's likely not though.

Some young players look exciting when they first break out to the team. They are confident with the ball at their feet, don't look out of place among the first teamers, etc. but then that's it. They just hit a plateau. I'm afraid Jones is one of those guys. He does everything fairly well, but doesn't have an outstanding attribute. He's not strong, he's not fast, therefore can't really beat a man despite his nice footwork, doesn't have a killer pass in him, doesn't offer much of a goal threat.

At 20 Trent was already a starter for us, providing 12 assists a season. Foden at 20 was a regular starter at City despite their ridiculous squad, scoring 9 in the process. Those are the players who can become superstars. Jones is about to be 21 soon and he has done nothing special. The best we could hope for is him becoming a Henderson/Lallana type player (good but not great, and definitely not superstar).

It'd be foolish to bank on the likes of Jones and Elliott to become the future mainstay of our midfield.

And Salah didn't look good enough for English football at Jones' age. Too early to write him off.

[Funky_Gibbons]

He's likely not though.

Some young players look exciting when they first break out to the team. They are confident with the ball at their feet, don't look out of place among the first teamers, etc. but then that's it. They just hit a plateau. I'm afraid Jones is one of those guys. He does everything fairly well, but doesn't have an outstanding attribute. He's not strong, he's not fast, therefore can't really beat a man despite his nice footwork, doesn't have a killer pass in him, doesn't offer much of a goal threat.

At 20 Trent was already a starter for us, providing 12 assists a season. Foden at 20 was a regular starter at City despite their ridiculous squad, scoring 9 in the process. Those are the players who can become superstars. Jones is about to be 21 soon and he has done nothing special. The best we could hope for is him becoming a Henderson/Lallana type player (good but not great, and definitely not superstar).

It'd be foolish to bank on the likes of Jones and Elliott to become the future mainstay of our midfield.

Wowzers, what a crock of shite this is.

He's reguarly in a Jurgen Klopp squad, getting a good amount of game time too. That should be an indication of how good he can or should be.

This shite about not having a killer pass or not being a goal threat is kind of ridiculous too. Firstly our midfield isn't set-up too score too many goals, we rely on our front three for that with the midfielders 'chipping in'. Assits are mosty through our full-backs and the the front three.

But Jones has still managed 1 x goal and 1 x assist so far this season even though he's missed a lot of games. In terms og G+A per minute played, that's better than any other midfielder in our squad.

[Coolie High]

Jones doesn’t need to be Foden or even Bellingham to be a top player, he has the qualities to be a top class CM, just needs to be as confident with himself as he was playing with the u23 or when he first broke through and scored that beauty against Everton, touch, passing, dribbling, shooting he has everything in his game to be a world class CM.

He’s not the glaringly obvious prodigy that some of the other English players are Foden Saka etc but it tends to take centre midfielders a bit longer to find their rhythm anyways.

[Fromola]

There’s a group of posters on here who typically want to see our press resistant, ball progresser and more naturally creative 8s included in every team selection. If they praise Jones, they’ll normally also be the ones praising Keita. So much is about balance. And certain midfields give it to us, others very much don’t. If you see this, there’s no point criticising others who see it too. The reality is we have 4 8s* who can offer genuine penetration against a low block, choosing to not to play the only one available yesterday, and then waiting till the 56th minute to bring him on, was a weird decision. 

*Although Thiago typically plays quite a long way from goal so against a low block he’s more likely to be recycling possession and keeping control.

I could understand Klopp not wanting to start Jones yesterday, given lack of game time, but he should have come on at half time at least against 10 men parking the bus. Klopp not afraid to make 3 changes at half time in the previous round to turn that performance around.

Keita has been hooked many times at half time but we wasted that period after the break to build pressure and get the crowd going, while attacking the Kop, because we didn't want to hook Milner at 45, despite the fact he was off the pace of the game offering nothing. It felt too late by the time we made changes, Arsenal had already dug in. Eventually we built some momentum with the other changes but it was too late and Arsenal had their eye in.

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

Based on what we say against Arsenal I hope Klopp tries something like this in our next few games without the Afcon trio

Allisson
Trent Matip VVD Robertson
Hendo Fabinho
Oxlade Firmino Jones
Jota

[Fromola]

Based on what we say against Arsenal I hope Klopp tries something like this in our next few games without the Afcon trio

Allisson
Trent Matip VVD Robertson
Hendo Fabinho
Oxlade Firmino Jones
Jota

I think this would help Henderson as well and keep Trent on the right.

We don't have the players for a midfield 3 or a front 3 really at the moment.

[Funky_Gibbons]

AOC and Jones out wide!!!

No thanks.

[mrantarctica]

He's likely not though.

Some young players look exciting when they first break out to the team. They are confident with the ball at their feet, don't look out of place among the first teamers, etc. but then that's it. They just hit a plateau. I'm afraid Jones is one of those guys. He does everything fairly well, but doesn't have an outstanding attribute. He's not strong, he's not fast, therefore can't really beat a man despite his nice footwork, doesn't have a killer pass in him, doesn't offer much of a goal threat.

At 20 Trent was already a starter for us, providing 12 assists a season. Foden at 20 was a regular starter at City despite their ridiculous squad, scoring 9 in the process. Those are the players who can become superstars. Jones is about to be 21 soon and he has done nothing special. The best we could hope for is him becoming a Henderson/Lallana type player (good but not great, and definitely not superstar).

It'd be foolish to bank on the likes of Jones and Elliott to become the future mainstay of our midfield.

This is based on the (false) premise that players who can make a big difference in this league appear to be able to do so right from when they start playing (i.e. early 20s) and if they don't make such a difference then they are good but not great.

Players develop at different rates. It's more about attitude and mentality than anything else. If Curtis and the other young lads can get the right attitude and go about developing their craft in the right way then there's no reason they can become great players. It's also about finding how players fit into a team and utilising their talents to good effect. A lot of it is luck as well. Sometimes it takes a run of games to build a bit of confidence and that can all be undone when you get an eye injury and can't even get on the pitch, or you get covid and then feel knackered afterward even though you're allowed to play again.

I wouldn't be so quick to write players off. No-one is banking on Jones or Elliot to become anything. They are at the club and are good young players. If they are good enough, and available for selection, and have trained well, then they'll play and if not, then they won't. We have plenty of others as well so we aren't banking on anything.

[Fromola]

Hang on there mate. I'm guessing you haven't seen the likes of Diao, Spearing, Poulsen, Cole, Adam etc.

If you are blaming critics of Keita for being hyperbolic, you are not coming across very well there, mate.

Gini had many dreadful games in a Liverpool shirt but was still a top player.

[PEG2K]

Wowzers, what a crock of shite this is.

He's reguarly in a Jurgen Klopp squad, getting a good amount of game time too. That should be an indication of how good he can or should be.

This shite about not having a killer pass or not being a goal threat is kind of ridiculous too. Firstly our midfield isn't set-up too score too many goals, we rely on our front three for that with the midfielders 'chipping in'. Assits are mosty through our full-backs and the the front three.

But Jones has still managed 1 x goal and 1 x assist so far this season even though he's missed a lot of games. In terms og G+A per minute played, that's better than any other midfielder in our squad.

He got 6 appearances including 3 starts this season lol. His goal was a deflected shot and his assist was a simple pass to Salah who then went on to score the solo goal of the season. But I get your point though. But you seem to miss mine.

I was countering the claim that Jones' gonna be a superstar. So, when he becomes a superstar, quote me and call my post shite. I'll be happy if that happens.