Author Topic: Chewer of Toffees, scourge of Barça, Peeler of Spuds, Arse kicker, Wolves slayer  (Read 663675 times)

Offline rickardinho1

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I'm gonna call it early but if we play with Coutinho in midfield, Mane and Salah on the flanks, I think this system might just make Origi the most improved player next season. He won't start much with Firmino around but I can see Origi really taking his game to the next level next season. Just me?
If he can learn to position himself in the box like Dzeko does then I anticipate that he'll be a huge beneficiary of regular service from wide positions, especially from Salah who is an assist machine.

Like Origi, Dzeko isn't the fastest player and doesn't really use his physique much, but he's always managed to score tons of goals by simply being clinical and standing in the right place to receive cutbacks and low crosses in the box. This was something he was also very good at during his time at City with Kolarov and Zabaleta feeding him, but as neither Milner or Clyne really excel at providing that sort of service it hasn't really given Origi the opportunity yet, but hopefully Salah can change that.


Offline DanA

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I think Origi is pretty fast. I also think Milner excelled at providing cutbacks in that same Man City team when he played RW.
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Offline rickardinho1

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I think Origi is pretty fast. I also think Milner excelled at providing cutbacks in that same Man City team when he played RW.
What I meant was that Milner doesn't really do those cutbacks for us while playing LB as much...

Offline xbugawugax

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I think he is still young and learning his trade.

so far he has been utilized in different set up which he is still trying to adapt to. From playing up front alone as a target man to hold up the ball and win headers to having played in a mobile forward system with the likes of bobby and mane and even as the forward that plays on the last shoulder of the defenders.

I read somewhere that in the 2nd half of the season where teams set deep negates his playing style of driving the ball forward with pace. That is one aspect of his game that can be improved on when playing with sides that depend deep. Sturridge can surely teach him a trick or two.

Next season with Mo Salah is going to be an interesting one as we see how he adapts to the different set ups. He is no Dzeko when it comes to a poacher inside the box but he is definitely more mobile and could also be a different kind of threat.

Offline Suareznumber7

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Don't agree at all. He scored some good goals for us this season, that finish against Bournemouth being one of them. He is just the type of player Klopp loves bringing on, think he has every chance providing he keeps his hunger, which is the challenge with a lot of young players. When he is on his game he has some lovely touches, people just need to show a bit of patience instead of just writing him off.

I actually expect this will turn out to be a huge season for Origi.  I am expecting him to put it all together and really move up a notch in ability and performances.  All you "fans" who want to sell or loan him out will look pretty foolish come the end of the season. 

Offline Suareznumber7

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If he can learn to position himself in the box like Dzeko does then I anticipate that he'll be a huge beneficiary of regular service from wide positions, especially from Salah who is an assist machine.

That's not how we play though.  Our front 5 do not play in fixed positions in attack.  The movement and switching of positions is one of the reasons why we are so hard to defend against.  With Coutinho moving into midfield at times this season it will be important that this movement continues as he will be able to find runners moving into good scoring positions.  Having Origi position himself in the box for cutbacks/crosses would absolutely stifle our attack. 

Offline rickardinho1

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That's not how we play though.  Our front 5 do not play in fixed positions in attack.  The movement and switching of positions is one of the reasons why we are so hard to defend against.  With Coutinho moving into midfield at times this season it will be important that this movement continues as he will be able to find runners moving into good scoring positions.  Having Origi position himself in the box for cutbacks/crosses would absolutely stifle our attack.
I agree with what you're saying. What I meant though wasn't necessarily that Origi had to model his entire game around Dzeko - because yes, that would stiffle the flow of our attack. Rather, what I highlighted is that Origi can improve his movement inside the box.

Origi doesn't really have that "killer instinct" or "fox in the box" sharpness that sets the great strikers apart... nor does he make those short smart runs that open up space for teammates in the box - the sort that Kuyt was excellent at doing which created many goals for Torres among others.

He's still only 22 but once he develops that "striker IQ" and smart movement and positioning to go with his skill on the ball that's when you'll see him kick on to the next level - from being a 10 goals a season striker to being a 18-20 goals a season striker.

Offline Suareznumber7

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I agree with what you're saying. What I meant though wasn't necessarily that Origi had to model his entire game around Dzeko - because yes, that would stiffle the flow of our attack. Rather, what I highlighted is that Origi can improve his movement inside the box.

Origi doesn't really have that "killer instinct" or "fox in the box" sharpness that sets the great strikers apart... nor does he make those short smart runs that open up space for teammates in the box - the sort that Kuyt was excellent at doing which created many goals for Torres among others.

He's still only 22 but once he develops that "striker IQ" and smart movement and positioning to go with his skill on the ball that's when you'll see him kick on to the next level - from being a 10 goals a season striker to being a 18-20 goals a season striker.

Totally agree with this. 

Offline Gnurglan

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He's done alright. He does what we can expect from a third pick striker. For next season I want him to take the next step. Ideally he'd challenge for a more regular spot in the first eleven. I don't think that's beyond him. This last season Firmino played in 34+1 league games and scored 11. Origi played in 14+20 and scored 7. With a bit of improvement and some luck, it's possible.

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Offline SugarHoneyIceTea

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He's done alright. He does what we can expect from a third pick striker. For next season I want him to take the next step. Ideally he'd challenge for a more regular spot in the first eleven. I don't think that's beyond him. This last season Firmino played in 34+1 league games and scored 11. Origi played in 14+20 and scored 7. With a bit of improvement and some luck, it's possible.

I thought this season gone would be the one where he would push on. I'm not sure he's got the drive and determination to do so. I really like him, he's got all the physical attributes but it seems like there's something missing

Offline Zimagic

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I thought this season gone would be the one where he would push on. I'm not sure he's got the drive and determination to do so. I really like him, he's got all the physical attributes but it seems like there's something missing

If you've read any of his interviews, you'd not say that. He seem to be an extremely driven & determined person.

Injury jinxed his season at the start and by the time he came back we were playing against double banks of 5, a tactic that negated his speed as an asset and required him to have excellent movement and an understanding with his teammates that just wasn't there.

He still managed 7 goals and 3 assists in the equivalent of just over 16 games playing time (league only), which is almost 1 in 2, despite the injury & being reduced to 10-15 mins here and there for large parts of the season.

No idea what's going to happen with him next year. If teams think they can beat us by coming out and playing, he'll play and get goals. If not..?
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Offline Modroxter

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I thought this season gone would be the one where he would push on. I'm not sure he's got the drive and determination to do so. I really like him, he's got all the physical attributes but it seems like there's something missing

I think there seems an inability at the moment to make the right runs which may come but i think if he watched sturridge runs and positional play then he could greatly improve. Needs to show more running off the ball too. Give him next season to see if he makes those steps

Offline BabuYagu

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I thought this season gone would be the one where he would push on. I'm not sure he's got the drive and determination to do so. I really like him, he's got all the physical attributes but it seems like there's something missing

Progression is not always linear for footballers. For me, it´s clear to see he has a tonne of talent. We see it at times but at the moment it seems it´s frustrating that we don´t see it all the time. I guess that is what sets apart a player who is ready and one who is still putting together their game.

He has just turned 22 though so time is on his side. When you look at most center forwards, 22-25 is when their goal scoring touch really starts to happen for them. 11 goals from 43 games doesn´t sound great either. But then that number is heavily inflated by his little 3-10 minute cameos off the bench. In actual fact he played 2081 minutes of football for us in all comps last season - around about 23 games. In that time, he scored 11 and assisted 4. That makes him a 1 in 2 striker right now. His G+A/90 is 0.65 which means every 3 full games he plays, you can expect him to be involved directly in 2+ goals.

To put that into some perspective, I looked at Anthony Martial. A player around the same age (he is 6 months younger than our Divock), at a club of similar stature and who is also had a season in and out of the side. However he cost around 6 times more than Divock.

Martial had 8 goals and 8 assists from 42 games (2,571 minutes). That makes him a 1-in-3.5 games striker in terms of goalscoring which is pretty poor. He had double the assists of Divock though which puts his G+A/90 at 0.57, still below Origi.

I thought I would compare him to a few forwards who seem to have much hype about them at the moment who are still 22 or under. I excluded anybody who hadn´t played at least 1,000 minutes of football (e.g. Embolo, Iheanacho) as just having a couple of good games with such a small amount of minutes can make you look like an elite player.

Schick - 13 goals, 5 assists in 35 games (1653 minutes).   1-in-1,4 goalscorer.   G+A/90 = 0,98
Doljberg - 23 goals, 8 assists in 48 games (3368 minutes).   1-in-1,6 goalscorer.   G+A/90 = 0,828
Origi - 11 goals, 4 assists in 43 games (2081 minutes).   1-in-2,1 goalscorer.   G+A/90 = 0,649
Martial - 8 goals, 8 assists in 42 games (2517 minutes).   1-in-3,5 goalscorer.   G+A/90 = 0,572
Rashford - 11 goals, 6 assists in 53 games (3068 minutes).   1-in-3,1 goalscorer.   G+A/90 = 0,499
Niang - 5 goals, 5 assists in 34 games (2377 minutes).   1-in-5,3 goalscorer.   G+A/90 = 0,379

What does that tell me? Well that Origi is pretty much where you would expect him to be right now as a 21 year old forward (which what he was last season) who still hasn´t become first choice at club level. That given a run of games in the side, we could expect him to perform near to the level of Schick and Doljberg on this list as Origi was at his best when playing regularly but provided little when he was in and out of the team or in his little cameos that inflated his minutes played. That while Schick and Doljberg (two players I rate very highly) appear like upgrades on paper, they are both playing in leagues right now that appear easier for attacking players to score in at the moment and therefore it´s hard to say whether that would translate to the Premier League, certainly for next season when young forwards do tend to have an adjustment period.

It also tells me that once again, when you look at the numbers of hyped up Utd kids vs our own (Janujizz v Sterling / Martial & Rashford v Origi) that our guys tend to appear the better players who, perhaps, we don´t rate as highly simply because the pundits are telling us that Janujizz is a really special player. The next Ronaldo. That Rashford is the best young forward England have had since Owen/Rooney. That at £58m, Martial will need to make Martin Tyler cum more than once every 2 years to justify the outlay.

It seems crazy to talk about selling Origi right now to me. I suspect if he was throwing up his numbers from the bench of Chelsea, Man City, Man Utd or elsewhere he would probably be someone our transfer forum posters would be bemoaning that we weren´t trying to sign.

So lets get behind this kid. He actually is a very very good little player. I think when we watch young players for Liverpool, we see the glimpses of gold but also all the muck too. Whereas with young forwards at other clubs, we tend to remember their highlight reels only. We don´t watch Doljberg´s games where he fails to score or create and feel he personally let us and our club down. We maybe didn´t even see those games at all. So you never have any negative feelings to attach to him. All of which seriously skews our opinion of our own young players vs others we see moments of brillance from elsewhere. As a result we think Origi and we feel he has been mostly disappointing. We think Schick, Doljberg and we feel positive, excited... kid looks special. We should get him instead of Origi who let´s us down more often than not.

I guess what I am trying to say is that perhaps our inflated expectations after his Dortmund performance were too high for a 21 year old kid. Therefore it´s our perspectives of him that need to change rather than him actually being disappointing. To help us with this, I decided to have a look for one of those highlight reels of Divock along with customary shite music accompanying it for us to remember while watching youtube videos of other young forwards and having those "grass is greener" feelings. Here we go:-

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/l5K9WlcBBlo" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/l5K9WlcBBlo</a>
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Offline SugarHoneyIceTea

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If you've read any of his interviews, you'd not say that. He seem to be an extremely driven & determined person.

Injury jinxed his season at the start and by the time he came back we were playing against double banks of 5, a tactic that negated his speed as an asset and required him to have excellent movement and an understanding with his teammates that just wasn't there.

He still managed 7 goals and 3 assists in the equivalent of just over 16 games playing time (league only), which is almost 1 in 2, despite the injury & being reduced to 10-15 mins here and there for large parts of the season.

No idea what's going to happen with him next year. If teams think they can beat us by coming out and playing, he'll play and get goals. If not..?

I'm not bothered about what he says. Too many of our players talk a good game, but it's on the pitch that matters. As the saying goes 'actions speak louder than words'.

Offline SugarHoneyIceTea

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I think there seems an inability at the moment to make the right runs which may come but i think if he watched sturridge runs and positional play then he could greatly improve. Needs to show more running off the ball too. Give him next season to see if he makes those steps

I'm not sure if the injury he suffered against Everton took something out of him mentally, as he's got great physical attributes but I thought last season he didn't use them to his advantage. I was expecting him to push on after the end of that season and it just hasn't happened. In saying that he does deserve the chance to turn it around next season.

Offline SugarHoneyIceTea

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Progression is not always linear for footballers. For me, it´s clear to see he has a tonne of talent. We see it at times but at the moment it seems it´s frustrating that we don´t see it all the time. I guess that is what sets apart a player who is ready and one who is still putting together their game.

He has just turned 22 though so time is on his side. When you look at most center forwards, 22-25 is when their goal scoring touch really starts to happen for them. 11 goals from 43 games doesn´t sound great either. But then that number is heavily inflated by his little 3-10 minute cameos off the bench. In actual fact he played 2081 minutes of football for us in all comps last season - around about 23 games. In that time, he scored 11 and assisted 4. That makes him a 1 in 2 striker right now. His G+A/90 is 0.65 which means every 3 full games he plays, you can expect him to be involved directly in 2+ goals.

To put that into some perspective, I looked at Anthony Martial. A player around the same age (he is 6 months younger than our Divock), at a club of similar stature and who is also had a season in and out of the side. However he cost around 6 times more than Divock.

Martial had 8 goals and 8 assists from 42 games (2,571 minutes). That makes him a 1-in-3.5 games striker in terms of goalscoring which is pretty poor. He had double the assists of Divock though which puts his G+A/90 at 0.57, still below Origi.

I thought I would compare him to a few forwards who seem to have much hype about them at the moment who are still 22 or under. I excluded anybody who hadn´t played at least 1,000 minutes of football (e.g. Embolo, Iheanacho) as just having a couple of good games with such a small amount of minutes can make you look like an elite player.

Schick - 13 goals, 5 assists in 35 games (1653 minutes).   1-in-1,4 goalscorer.   G+A/90 = 0,98
Doljberg - 23 goals, 8 assists in 48 games (3368 minutes).   1-in-1,6 goalscorer.   G+A/90 = 0,828
Origi - 11 goals, 4 assists in 43 games (2081 minutes).   1-in-2,1 goalscorer.   G+A/90 = 0,649
Martial - 8 goals, 8 assists in 42 games (2517 minutes).   1-in-3,5 goalscorer.   G+A/90 = 0,572
Rashford - 11 goals, 6 assists in 53 games (3068 minutes).   1-in-3,1 goalscorer.   G+A/90 = 0,499
Niang - 5 goals, 5 assists in 34 games (2377 minutes).   1-in-5,3 goalscorer.   G+A/90 = 0,379

What does that tell me? Well that Origi is pretty much where you would expect him to be right now as a 21 year old forward (which what he was last season) who still hasn´t become first choice at club level. That given a run of games in the side, we could expect him to perform near to the level of Schick and Doljberg on this list as Origi was at his best when playing regularly but provided little when he was in and out of the team or in his little cameos that inflated his minutes played. That while Schick and Doljberg (two players I rate very highly) appear like upgrades on paper, they are both playing in leagues right now that appear easier for attacking players to score in at the moment and therefore it´s hard to say whether that would translate to the Premier League, certainly for next season when young forwards do tend to have an adjustment period.

It also tells me that once again, when you look at the numbers of hyped up Utd kids vs our own (Janujizz v Sterling / Martial & Rashford v Origi) that our guys tend to appear the better players who, perhaps, we don´t rate as highly simply because the pundits are telling us that Janujizz is a really special player. The next Ronaldo. That Rashford is the best young forward England have had since Owen/Rooney. That at £58m, Martial will need to make Martin Tyler cum more than once every 2 years to justify the outlay.

It seems crazy to talk about selling Origi right now to me. I suspect if he was throwing up his numbers from the bench of Chelsea, Man City, Man Utd or elsewhere he would probably be someone our transfer forum posters would be bemoaning that we weren´t trying to sign.

So lets get behind this kid. He actually is a very very good little player. I think when we watch young players for Liverpool, we see the glimpses of gold but also all the muck too. Whereas with young forwards at other clubs, we tend to remember their highlight reels only. We don´t watch Doljberg´s games where he fails to score or create and feel he personally let us and our club down. We maybe didn´t even see those games at all. So you never have any negative feelings to attach to him. All of which seriously skews our opinion of our own young players vs others we see moments of brillance from elsewhere. As a result we think Origi and we feel he has been mostly disappointing. We think Schick, Doljberg and we feel positive, excited... kid looks special. We should get him instead of Origi who let´s us down more often than not.

I guess what I am trying to say is that perhaps our inflated expectations after his Dortmund performance were too high for a 21 year old kid. Therefore it´s our perspectives of him that need to change rather than him actually being disappointing. To help us with this, I decided to have a look for one of those highlight reels of Divock along with customary shite music accompanying it for us to remember while watching youtube videos of other young forwards and having those "grass is greener" feelings. Here we go:-

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/l5K9WlcBBlo" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/l5K9WlcBBlo</a>

INRAT! Although I have scanned it and the stats can show what they like mate. I can see with my own eyes he wasn't the same player last season as he was the season before, hopefully he can get back to what he was doing at the end of the 2016 season.


Offline BabuYagu

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INRAT! Although I have scanned it and the stats can show what they like mate. I can see with my own eyes he wasn't the same player last season as he was the season before, hopefully he can get back to what he was doing at the end of the 2016 season.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/4n-UGQcG3Jw" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/4n-UGQcG3Jw</a>
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Offline Doc Red

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Progression is not always linear for footballers. For me, it´s clear to see he has a tonne of talent. We see it at times but at the moment it seems it´s frustrating that we don´t see it all the time. I guess that is what sets apart a player who is ready and one who is still putting together their game.

It seems crazy to talk about selling Origi right now to me. I suspect if he was throwing up his numbers from the bench of Chelsea, Man City, Man Utd or elsewhere he would probably be someone our transfer forum posters would be bemoaning that we weren´t trying to sign.

So lets get behind this kid. He actually is a very very good little player. I think when we watch young players for Liverpool, we see the glimpses of gold but also all the muck too. Whereas with young forwards at other clubs, we tend to remember their highlight reels only. We don´t watch Doljberg´s games where he fails to score or create and feel he personally let us and our club down. We maybe didn´t even see those games at all. So you never have any negative feelings to attach to him. All of which seriously skews our opinion of our own young players vs others we see moments of brillance from elsewhere. As a result we think Origi and we feel he has been mostly disappointing. We think Schick, Doljberg and we feel positive, excited... kid looks special. We should get him instead of Origi who let´s us down more often than not.

I guess what I am trying to say is that perhaps our inflated expectations after his Dortmund performance were too high for a 21 year old kid. Therefore it´s our perspectives of him that need to change rather than him actually being disappointing. To help us with this, I decided to have a look for one of those highlight reels of Divock along with customary shite music accompanying it for us to remember while watching youtube videos of other young forwards and having those "grass is greener" feelings.

Some fantastic arguments there, Babu.
Not only do we have a really promising young forward that is still at an age where consistency is something gained via experience, but our own expectations and analysis of our own players (versus those on other teams) can sometimes be the issue as well. Some players can consistently show their qualities from the get go, others show them early and than fizzle out after a few years, but most will start steady with many dips before they eventually become bonafide stars in their position (if that's their ceiling). We're still trying to see what Origi will blossom to become, but he's a tidy player with great technique and speed, has an eye for a pass with a deadly shot to boot. At this stage, it's about putting all the pieces together, learning to know what games to be more aggressive, when to come deep or stick in the box, how to manouvre around certain defenses and still be useful even if not scoring.

I said it before, and I'll say it again. I believe that Origi is going to be a beast for us in the near future. If United had a Origi on their books, we'd have never heard the end of it from the media. Thankfully, he'll get his time to grow outside the spotlight whilst with us, though our fans are probably the biggest naysayers he'll be facing. On a positive outlook, with Salah and hopefully Keita joining us, Origi should find himself surrounded by lots of movement with quick players buzzing around, should he get his moment to play I think he'll reap the benefits as those types of players don't just take the full focus of the opposing defences, they also bring out the best in those around them as their constant movement should provide space for Origi to thrive in.
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Offline Doc Red

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INRAT! Although I have scanned it and the stats can show what they like mate. I can see with my own eyes he wasn't the same player last season as he was the season before, hopefully he can get back to what he was doing at the end of the 2016 season.

Having come across that before, what does it stand for?

*edit. Sheesh. "I'm not reading all that", and yet you continued with the debate. :wave

« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 01:16:37 pm by Doc Red »
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Offline BabuYagu

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Having come across that before, what does it stand for?

*edit. Sheesh. "I'm not reading all that", and yet you continued with the debate. :wave

I think it means "I avoid reading anything that doesn´t support my own pre-conceived opinions". Also known as confirmation bias.
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Offline Eeyore

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Progression is not always linear for footballers. For me, it´s clear to see he has a tonne of talent. We see it at times but at the moment it seems it´s frustrating that we don´t see it all the time. I guess that is what sets apart a player who is ready and one who is still putting together their game.

He has just turned 22 though so time is on his side. When you look at most center forwards, 22-25 is when their goal scoring touch really starts to happen for them. 11 goals from 43 games doesn´t sound great either. But then that number is heavily inflated by his little 3-10 minute cameos off the bench. In actual fact he played 2081 minutes of football for us in all comps last season - around about 23 games. In that time, he scored 11 and assisted 4. That makes him a 1 in 2 striker right now. His G+A/90 is 0.65 which means every 3 full games he plays, you can expect him to be involved directly in 2+ goals.

To put that into some perspective, I looked at Anthony Martial. A player around the same age (he is 6 months younger than our Divock), at a club of similar stature and who is also had a season in and out of the side. However he cost around 6 times more than Divock.

Martial had 8 goals and 8 assists from 42 games (2,571 minutes). That makes him a 1-in-3.5 games striker in terms of goalscoring which is pretty poor. He had double the assists of Divock though which puts his G+A/90 at 0.57, still below Origi.

I thought I would compare him to a few forwards who seem to have much hype about them at the moment who are still 22 or under. I excluded anybody who hadn´t played at least 1,000 minutes of football (e.g. Embolo, Iheanacho) as just having a couple of good games with such a small amount of minutes can make you look like an elite player.

Schick - 13 goals, 5 assists in 35 games (1653 minutes).   1-in-1,4 goalscorer.   G+A/90 = 0,98
Doljberg - 23 goals, 8 assists in 48 games (3368 minutes).   1-in-1,6 goalscorer.   G+A/90 = 0,828
Origi - 11 goals, 4 assists in 43 games (2081 minutes).   1-in-2,1 goalscorer.   G+A/90 = 0,649
Martial - 8 goals, 8 assists in 42 games (2517 minutes).   1-in-3,5 goalscorer.   G+A/90 = 0,572
Rashford - 11 goals, 6 assists in 53 games (3068 minutes).   1-in-3,1 goalscorer.   G+A/90 = 0,499
Niang - 5 goals, 5 assists in 34 games (2377 minutes).   1-in-5,3 goalscorer.   G+A/90 = 0,379

What does that tell me? Well that Origi is pretty much where you would expect him to be right now as a 21 year old forward (which what he was last season) who still hasn´t become first choice at club level. That given a run of games in the side, we could expect him to perform near to the level of Schick and Doljberg on this list as Origi was at his best when playing regularly but provided little when he was in and out of the team or in his little cameos that inflated his minutes played. That while Schick and Doljberg (two players I rate very highly) appear like upgrades on paper, they are both playing in leagues right now that appear easier for attacking players to score in at the moment and therefore it´s hard to say whether that would translate to the Premier League, certainly for next season when young forwards do tend to have an adjustment period.

It also tells me that once again, when you look at the numbers of hyped up Utd kids vs our own (Janujizz v Sterling / Martial & Rashford v Origi) that our guys tend to appear the better players who, perhaps, we don´t rate as highly simply because the pundits are telling us that Janujizz is a really special player. The next Ronaldo. That Rashford is the best young forward England have had since Owen/Rooney. That at £58m, Martial will need to make Martin Tyler cum more than once every 2 years to justify the outlay.

It seems crazy to talk about selling Origi right now to me. I suspect if he was throwing up his numbers from the bench of Chelsea, Man City, Man Utd or elsewhere he would probably be someone our transfer forum posters would be bemoaning that we weren´t trying to sign.

So lets get behind this kid. He actually is a very very good little player. I think when we watch young players for Liverpool, we see the glimpses of gold but also all the muck too. Whereas with young forwards at other clubs, we tend to remember their highlight reels only. We don´t watch Doljberg´s games where he fails to score or create and feel he personally let us and our club down. We maybe didn´t even see those games at all. So you never have any negative feelings to attach to him. All of which seriously skews our opinion of our own young players vs others we see moments of brillance from elsewhere. As a result we think Origi and we feel he has been mostly disappointing. We think Schick, Doljberg and we feel positive, excited... kid looks special. We should get him instead of Origi who let´s us down more often than not.

I guess what I am trying to say is that perhaps our inflated expectations after his Dortmund performance were too high for a 21 year old kid. Therefore it´s our perspectives of him that need to change rather than him actually being disappointing. To help us with this, I decided to have a look for one of those highlight reels of Divock along with customary shite music accompanying it for us to remember while watching youtube videos of other young forwards and having those "grass is greener" feelings. Here we go:-

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/l5K9WlcBBlo" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/l5K9WlcBBlo</a>

Great post mate.
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Offline BabuYagu

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Some fantastic arguments there, Babu.
Not only do we have a really promising young forward that is still at an age where consistency is something gained via experience, but our own expectations and analysis of our own players (versus those on other teams) can sometimes be the issue as well. Some players can consistently show their qualities from the get go, others show them early and than fizzle out after a few years, but most will start steady with many dips before they eventually become bonafide stars in their position (if that's their ceiling). We're still trying to see what Origi will blossom to become, but he's a tidy player with great technique and speed, has an eye for a pass with a deadly shot to boot. At this stage, it's about putting all the pieces together, learning to know what games to be more aggressive, when to come deep or stick in the box, how to manouvre around certain defenses and still be useful even if not scoring.

I said it before, and I'll say it again. I believe that Origi is going to be a beast for us in the near future. If United had a Origi on their books, we'd have never heard the end of it from the media. Thankfully, he'll get his time to grow outside the spotlight whilst with us, though our fans are probably the biggest naysayers he'll be facing. On a positive outlook, with Salah and hopefully Keita joining us, Origi should find himself surrounded by lots of movement with quick players buzzing around, should he get his moment to play I think he'll reap the benefits as those types of players don't just take the full focus of the opposing defences, they also bring out the best in those around them as their constant movement should provide space for Origi to thrive in.

I hold the same belief (or hopes) for him. Origi is one of our young players I am most excited about. It´s hard to watch that youtube clip I posted and not see that there is a lot of talent in there. But more than that, he does seem perfectly suited to how Klopp wants a forward to play. He presses well and puts in a shift. He a good touch and close control, has pace and you would back him in a foot race with most defenders. He is strong, hard to knock off the ball, packs a lot of power in his shots and has even started playing on the shoulders of defenders at times. You can see how his game is developing but he is still trying to put all the pieces together. He will be a player to be feared when he does though. I still believe he has as much (if not more) raw talent than Lukaku or Kane. He just hasn´t put it together yet. Watch pre-Everton Lukaku or 2013/14 Kane every week and you would struggle to see how they would become 20+ goal a season strikers in the league. There were little hints of it in there though. Glimpses, that get lost to fans who focus on the muck rather than glimpses of gold that coaches see.

For me, I think a lot of our supports want our own version of Harry Kane but don´t have the patience to stick with young players through those bad times until he finds his feet as a Premier League striker. Perhaps how Fowler and Owen arrived on the scene for us has spoiled them? But they really are the outliers in terms of how forwards become goal machines and usually it´s not until 22-25 until their end product starts to peak. Being a 1-in-2 striker while being in and out of the side and being used on the LW at times is about what we should expect from a 21 year old.
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Offline So… Howard Philips

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Second the thanks to Babu.

I think, as a fan base, we have a tendency to always hurt the one we (should) love.

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Great post mate.

Agreed. Couldn't agree more with BabuYagu.

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Offline kaliberbeats

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I don't think we'll see the best of Origi until he's 24/25 but I also don't think he'll get anywhere near enough game time with us to develop into that player. I like the lad but I think his future is elsewhere. If we do sell him I hope we add a sell on clause to the deal.
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I don't think we'll see the best of Origi until he's 24/25 but I also don't think he'll get anywhere near enough game time with us to develop into that player. I like the lad but I think his future is elsewhere. If we do sell him I hope we add a sell on clause to the deal.
Depends if we buy another striker the coming season or not. He got over 2000 minutes with us last season without european football or much of an FA Cup run. That´s a good number for his age. In contrast, Iheanacho got about 800 minutes last season even though City had European football & got to the FA Cup semis. That should be a warning sign to young players about going there. Despite his clear abundance of talent and amazing scoring record when he plays, he still cannot get near the first team.

I think either Sturridge plays a lot next season - which means he has stayed fit and healthy and, if that happens, I genuinely believe we will have a great season.

If he doesn´t, then that either means Origi has replaced him in the pecking order or that he´s injured and Origi & Solanke are picking up minutes they need to reach their potential. I also suspect one of those two will take their chance next season too. Solanke has been banging on the door of Chelsea for a few years now and never got a chance. You can be sure when he gets one, it will be in his head that at this level, you might not get another and will be determined to make the most of it.

This is why I wouldn´t be fussed about getting another striker, even if Ings leaves. We usually play with just 1 striker and a depth of Firmino-Sturridge-Origi-Solanke-Brewster is fine. Maybe another wide forward who can play centrally, but definitely not another 9. Origi and Solanke wouldn´t get near the pitch.
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Offline Nessy76

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Depends if we buy another striker the coming season or not. He got over 2000 minutes with us last season without european football or much of an FA Cup run. That´s a good number for his age. In contrast, Iheanacho got about 800 minutes last season even though City had European football & got to the FA Cup semis. That should be a warning sign to young players about going there. Despite his clear abundance of talent and amazing scoring record when he plays, he still cannot get near the first team.

I think either Sturridge plays a lot next season - which means he has stayed fit and healthy and, if that happens, I genuinely believe we will have a great season.

If he doesn´t, then that either means Origi has replaced him in the pecking order or that he´s injured and Origi & Solanke are picking up minutes they need to reach their potential. I also suspect one of those two will take their chance next season too. Solanke has been banging on the door of Chelsea for a few years now and never got a chance. You can be sure when he gets one, it will be in his head that at this level, you might not get another and will be determined to make the most of it.

This is why I wouldn´t be fussed about getting another striker, even if Ings leaves. We usually play with just 1 striker and a depth of Firmino-Sturridge-Origi-Solanke-Brewster is fine. Maybe another wide forward who can play centrally, but definitely not another 9. Origi and Solanke wouldn´t get near the pitch.

Another good post. Would prefer Ings to get a chance to prove he's still got it rather than risk exposing Brewster just yet. I think with Mane and Salah it's going to be a front three more often than not, and Firmino is the man to shift there. Sturridge even if fit doesn't seem to operate on quite the same wavelength, so I'd expect Origi to once again get a lot of games off the bench or be first choice cover for Bob. He can potentially cover any of the front 3, of course, even if it means we change things around when he comes on, and it's very rare for three forwards to all play the full 90, so the chances will be there.

A lot of people look at the squad and the potential signings and try to cram everyone into a first XI, but even in a single match, most teams will use 14 players. A young player like Origi who is still learning his trade is the perfect sub in a lot of ways. He is good enough to do the job already, and the more he plays the better he should get.
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Some really good posts on this page. I don't see the issue at all with Divock, he's doing fine. People are simply too impatient. I firmly believe he has everything to become a top class striker, it is simply about putting it all together like others have said on this page. I think what is interesting from the numbers posted by Babu is that his 11 goals were all from open play, I believe. I know he missed a pen in a cup game but I don't remember him scoring from a penalty or free-kick. Had he - like many strikers tend to do - scored a handful of penalties last season we could have been looking at him having scored 15 goals. 15 goals for a striker who is in and out of the team and who was turning 22 during that season? The narrative would be completely different, I think.

He's doing fine. If we sell him we would only likely replace him with a striker of similar ability and age, perhaps a year or two younger. But why would we? He's learning under Jurgen, this will be his third season under him. Jurgen obviously likes him or he would have fucked him off by now, he didn't mess around with Benteke (a less mobile, more target man-type striker, but the point remains). With more games to play this season, hopefully 60 or more if we go far in competitions, then he'll get plenty of chances and with another good pre-season under Klopp and with good additions around him to supply goals, don't be surprised if he does get to that 15 goal marker, maybe more.

Offline BabuYagu

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Some really good posts on this page. I don't see the issue at all with Divock, he's doing fine. People are simply too impatient. I firmly believe he has everything to become a top class striker, it is simply about putting it all together like others have said on this page. I think what is interesting from the numbers posted by Babu is that his 11 goals were all from open play, I believe. I know he missed a pen in a cup game but I don't remember him scoring from a penalty or free-kick. Had he - like many strikers tend to do - scored a handful of penalties last season we could have been looking at him having scored 15 goals. 15 goals for a striker who is in and out of the team and who was turning 22 during that season? The narrative would be completely different, I think.

He's doing fine. If we sell him we would only likely replace him with a striker of similar ability and age, perhaps a year or two younger. But why would we? He's learning under Jurgen, this will be his third season under him. Jurgen obviously likes him or he would have fucked him off by now, he didn't mess around with Benteke (a less mobile, more target man-type striker, but the point remains). With more games to play this season, hopefully 60 or more if we go far in competitions, then he'll get plenty of chances and with another good pre-season under Klopp and with good additions around him to supply goals, don't be surprised if he does get to that 15 goal marker, maybe more.
Yes, good point on the penalties. I saw a discussion recently on RAWK where people couldn´t understand why stats people look at NPG (non-penalty goals) when comparing players.

To put it simply, if we need to add goals to the team and sign a twenty goal a season forward and 2x 15 goal a season midfielders, that´s great. However they each were penalty takers at their clubs and 50% of their goals are penalties. Plus Milner will remain as the penalty taker here. So at the end of the season when your new forward has just 11 goals and the midfielders just 6 and 8 each you realise you never actually solved your problem.

So yes, 11 goals from open play or a 1-in-2 striker who is just 21 and not a regular starter yet is about what you should be expecting right now.

Before Messi and Ronaldo rewrote what elite goalscoring looked like, a goal every 150ish minutes striker was considered elite. That is a forward that gets you 20 a season in the league, or about 30 a season if he plays 50 games in all comps. Origi really isn´t far away from that at all. His scoring rate is where you would expect it to be for someone 2 years away from entering the start of their prolific years. He simply hasn´t played much in terms of minutes to have got 15+ yet. If he played as much football as Rashford last year with those extra cup and european games, he certainly would have been on 17+ with his scoring rate.
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Strikers and wide forwards born in 1995 playing for Premier League sides 2016/17 (all competitions) ;

Player - Minutes (90s) - Goals - Minutes/goal

Chuba Akpom - 563 (6.3) - 3 - 188
Divock Origi - 2081 (23.1) - 11 - 189
Anthony Martial - 2517 (28) - 8 - 314
Ashely Fletcher - 1390 (15.4) - 4 - 348
Adnan Januzaj - 1956 (21.7) - 2 - 978
Sam McQueen - 2318 (25.8) - 2 - 1159
Jordon Ibe - 1145 (12.7) - 0 - N/A
Georges-Kevin N'Koudou - 323 (3.6) - 0 - N/A

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To help us with this, I decided to have a look for one of those highlight reels of Divock along with customary shite music accompanying it for us to remember while watching youtube videos of other young forwards and having those "grass is greener" feelings. Here we go:-

Compared to many of the youtube player highlight reels I've seen, the music on that wasn't actually that bad.  Although there was a bit of barrel scraping to get enough highlights to last 2 songs, overall I agree, based on that I'd defo be interested in signing him.  Of course that Micky Edwards fella would have to run it through his spreadsheets and algorithms to see if the numbers work first.

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You know your club is really progressing when players of the quality of Origi are struggling to get even a sniff of the first team.

Bodes well for the future. Personally I really rate Divock - we need players like him competing for a spot in the team. It's up to him to grab it and cement his place when he gets the chance.
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Wasn't so long ago that N'gog was starting for us..

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He will get his chance.  We're not buying a striker.

Klopp apparently is happy with firmino Sturridge and origi.

That plus dings and solanke coming in.. We're good.

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Wasn't so long ago that N'gog was starting for us..

Shudder. You wonder wtf was wrong with Rafa in his final season. No wonder we got skinned.

It is entirely up to Origi if he is up for it. He got all the attributes to become a Drogba or turn into a Heskey.

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Shudder. You wonder wtf was wrong with Rafa in his final season. No wonder we got skinned.

It is entirely up to Origi if he is up for it. He got all the attributes to become a Drogba or turn into a Heskey.

We had Torres. The main backup was Kuyt. After him it was Ngog. Today we have the Kuyt and Ngog, perhaps even upgrades on them, but we don't have the equivalent of Torres. (Let's not talk about the injured Torres.) I believe what matters is not so much the third pick, but the first and the second picks. So the problem with Ngog was smaller than our current problem with no Torres type of striker. The good news for Origi is that he has a golden chance to become a first/second pick. The door is open for him.

BabuYagu's posts indicate that Origi is actually better than we (myself included) give him credit for. I like those numbers and we can only hope his development continues. It's a very important season coming up for him.

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Offline deadsetred

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We had Torres. The main backup was Kuyt. After him it was Ngog. Today we have the Kuyt and Ngog, perhaps even upgrades on them, but we don't have the equivalent of Torres. (Let's not talk about the injured Torres.) I believe what matters is not so much the third pick, but the first and the second picks. So the problem with Ngog was smaller than our current problem with no Torres type of striker. The good news for Origi is that he has a golden chance to become a first/second pick. The door is open for him.

BabuYagu's posts indicate that Origi is actually better than we (myself included) give him credit for. I like those numbers and we can only hope his development continues. It's a very important season coming up for him.

??? We have no one in our squad as poor as N'gog, and Origi is at least on par with Kuyt as his best, with obviously more natural attributes as a striker. It's true that it's a make or break season for Origi with us, but if you're not going to give young talent a shot at proving themselves, what's the point in investing in them to begin with?

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He will get his chance.  We're not buying a striker.

Klopp apparently is happy with firmino Sturridge and origi.

That plus dings and solanke coming in.. We're good.

Feels like an overload. They can all play wide forward, but without the penetration of Mane / Salah, so not too great from that perspective either. We should lose one from that pack - possibly Origi, if he has the ambition to play first team football now - and get in another good dribbler in his place for the wing. Don't know if Ojo is trusted enough.

I rate Divock but he's not putting it all together consistently. Looks prime for a loan or move away for a chance as a starter.

Offline stevensr123

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??? We have no one in our squad as poor as N'gog, and Origi is at least on par with Kuyt as his best, with obviously more natural attributes as a striker. It's true that it's a make or break season for Origi with us, but if you're not going to give young talent a shot at proving themselves, what's the point in investing in them to begin with?
origi is 22 ffs,  of course it isn't make or fucking break.

At the age of 23 Torres scored a massive 15 Goals in 40 matches. Torres at 22 scored 13 goals.

Origi a year young scored 11 in 43.

And I'm not saying origi is gonna be as good, but the guys is still a kid and learning his trade. Ridiculous to suggest getting rid of him or writing him off.

I mean Roberto who is most likely gonna be are main striker, cost a shit load of money at the time, and is 3 years older..scored 1 more goal..
« Last Edit: July 5, 2017, 10:30:06 am by stevensr123 »
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