Topic: The Shadow of the Past

[Zappa]

The Long Shadow of Success
It occurs to me that our glorious past is one of the main problems with football is the unrealistic expectations of the fans burdened by the history that many have seen so little of. Fifteen years and counting since we last won the Championship that we came to regard as our own.

These days of instant gratification - new gardens built in a day, setting up a first home with every convenience you could possibly need -  have given us the impression that cash is king.

If you throw enough cash at the problem it will solve it, won’t it?

Consider this; building a garden from scratch results in one that will outlive you; building a home together cements a relationship and makes you value what you have. Money does not bring lasting success or happiness.

So what has this got to do with football, and the burden of the past?

By my reckoning there have been 106 championships. Between myself and my father, we lived through and have seen most of the Liverpool success stories. I got to wondering how he would react to out 15yrs in the wilderness?

Liverpool went from 1906 to 1922 without winning the title - 16 years. He was born in 1922, so he would only have been told about this. Then we went from 1923 to 1947, 24 years, without a title – and he certainly knew all about that. As if that was not bad enough he then endured the titleless spell from 1947 to 1964, a full 17 years.

I never in all my days heard him lambast Liverpool the way some here and elsewhere do. He had patience. He had high expectations, yes. But football goes in cycles he knew it would come again.

When Shankly tore apart his first “big” team, he appealed for four or so years to build the next one. He won the Championship the next year and said that in a way he was sorry because that had set a standard that was impossible to sustain.

Just out of interest, I did a bit of research into how long other teams had to wait for success.

The yardstick through all my time watching Liverpool are Arsenal who went from 1953 to 1971 18yrs; and from 1971 to 1989 18yrs. And historically they waited 37 years for their first title in 1931. The others:

Manchester United 1892 to 1908 16yrs; 1911 to 1952 41yrs; 1967 to 1993  26yrs.
Everton 1891 to 1915 24yrs; 1939 to 1963 24yrs;1970 to 1985 15yrs; 1987 to 2005 18+yrs.
Newcastle Utd; 1909 to 192718yrs; 1927 to 2005 78+yrs.
Sunderland 6 times winners; but from 1913 to 1935 23 yrs; 1936 to 2005 71+yrs.
Manchester City 1891 to 1937 46yrs; 1937 to 1968 31yrs; 1968 to 2005 37+yrs.
Spurs 1908 to 1951 43yrs; 1961 to 2005 44+yrs.
Huddersfield (First team to be champions 3 years running) 1888 to 1924 36yrs; 1926 to 2005 79+yrs.
Wolverhampton Wanderers 1888 to 1954 66yrs; 1959 to 2005 46+yrs.
Aston Villa 1910 to 1981 71 yrs; 1981 to 2005 24+yrs.
Portsmouth 1920 to 1949 29yrs; 1950 to 2005 55+yrs.
Ipswich 1938 to 1962 24yrs ; 1962 to 2005 43+yrs.
Sheffield Wednesday 1904 to 1929 25yrs; 1930 to 2005 75+yrs.
West Bromwich Albion1888 to 1920 32yrs; 1920 to 2005 85+yrs.
Burnley 1888 to 1921 33yrs; 1921 to 1960 39yrs; 1960 to 2005 45+yrs.
Derby County 1888 to 1972 84yrs; 1974 to 2005 31+yrs.
Nottingham Forest 1892 to 1978 86yrs; 1978 to 2005 27+yrs.
Sheffield United 1898 to 2005 107+yrs.
Preston North End The original untouchables. 1889 and 1890 then 115yrs in the waiting.

And then the ones that used money quick-fix to solve their problems:

Leeds Utd 1919 to 1969 50yrs; 1974 to 1992 18yrs – and it looks like being a long time until the next.
Blackburn Rovers 1889 to 1912  23yrs; 1914 to 1995 81 yrs – Sugar Daddies don’t last forever.
Chelsea 1905  to 1955 50yrs; 1955 to 2005 50yrs – third time lucky?

And all the other teams not mentioned above? All still waiting for their first, all supported by fans who dream of the sort of failure we’ve endured this year.

Beating the Blues
It hurts to be second best on Merseyside but let’s put this into perspective.

In the 44 years since 1961 I’ve had to endure it 8 times (61, 62, 63, 65, 70, 85, 87, 2005). Starting in 1970, I bet a mate each year that we would finish higher – always won and never tried to collect the bet – in 1985 the cheeky sod came for his money.

Shooting our own
I don’t believe that there is one player at the club who does not want to win the league with us.

In the warm pink glow of nostalgia, memories linger on the great performances of the glory days sides. They never had a bad day, did they? Well I was there most of the time, and the silky Hansen, Lawrenson, St John etc and all the other legends had periods of awful form.

We didn’t like those times, and although we complained we weren't nearly as viciously as many of the modern day fans be it on forums, phone ins etc.

It creases me to see people slag players off, especially when they have come back from bad injury. Cisse and Kewell in particular could have sat on their backsides and collected their pay for the rest of this year. Cisse in particular has a miraculous attitude. Desire however is one thing, match fitness is another

Disrespecting Managers
Whether people like hearing it or not, Houllier rescued this club from obscurity and set it back on the road to recovery. He couldn’t/wasn’t allowed (according to your viewpoint) to finish the job. But he still brought us forwards.

Like every manager, he bought some unsuitable players – yet some of them did a bit more than ok against Chelsea a few days ago! Better motivated these days perhaps, but still Houllier's men. Some buffoon even posted recently to the effect that Houliers trophies were "suspect" because we could and perhaps should have lost most of them.

From that perspective, every goal scored is a mistake and many of our triumphs in the older glory days were equally “suspect” – if you want to think that way.

We won what we won – simply by scoring more goals. Some displays might have been rougher than others might, but you can say that about any team’s history.

All the great teams we’ve had (and for that matter all the great teams Arsenal, Man Utd etc had) started off a lot poorer team than they finished off – they were allowed the time to develop.

This post was prompted by the absolute drivel posted in the aftermath of the Arsenal game. A game played five days after every player had sweated blood for the cause in the million mile an hour game of defending against Chelsea. How soon the heroes fall from grace!

Arsenal - a game in which we looked poor in the first half – and gave one of our better displays in the second. Why the difference?

Well why were Leverkusen, Juve, Chelsea so poor when we played them? Because we made them play that way – in the first half Arsenal did it to us and in the second half we escaped their system. Plenty of positives and progress.

We were always known as (and intensely proud to be known as a sporting set of supporters – hate to lose as much as the next man, but the measure of your sportsmanship is your reaction to defeat.

Our way with managers is to give them time – not as one poster suggested put the manager under the pressure of “this sort of result in a normal year would be ground for sacking”. Progress usually comes with small steps forward

Ripping into your own with instant and bitter “wisdom” is a very poor refelction on the current fanbase.

I have noticed a large influx of people in the last few months with a posting style that I hate so much. Short aggressive posts often ignoring what has gone on before in the thread – done in the rush to get “my view” committed to history. This is particularly prevalent in after-match posts; I'd consider a ban on posting until people have calmed down enough to  post thought out sensible comments.

Certainly, the standard on RAWK and elsewhere has suffered as a result of this style of knee-jerk "analysis".

Patience, Faith and class = Real Liverpool Fans. More recruits please

© VWA 2005

[GingerRed]

Your point about patience is a good one. It can take many years to build a side capable of winning the league, and success depends on so many different factors. Once you have the right blend, everything comes together and you are unstoppable. But all good things come to an end. Again, for various reasons, successful teams fall apart, either slowly, if well managed, or catastrophically, if not.

Restructuring a team and building it into a quality side again can take a very long time indeed. Not only in the league, but look at the European Cup. Before 1998, Real Madrid's last victory was in 1966. A gap of 32 years was needed before they had a team to conquer Europe. I feel as if we have been slowly rebuilding over the past few years. We've started our climb back up to the top, and we've won some trophies.

Hopefully Rafa can continue the job and establish Liverpool as not just a good team, but a truly great team. 15 years since our last league title, 21 years since our last European Cup - I have a feeling we won't have to wait too long before we see both of these trophies back at Anfield again.

[Hij]

The Long Shadow of Success

I haven't quoted the whole thing, but done it so you know what i am replying to. Zappa, thank you for this excellently worded piece of which I completely agree with. I may not be one of the best posters on here but i hope at least my opinion counts for something around here.

Zappa your post was a great read thank you for taking the time to write it.

[zigackly]

Great post Zappa, I've taken the liberty of making some corrections and additions:

Liverpool 1888 to 1906 8 years; 1906 to 1922 16yrs; 1923 to 1947 24yrs; 1947 to 1964 17yrs; 1990 to 2005 15 years
Arsenal 1886 to 1931 35 years; 1939 to 1948 9 years; 1953 to 1971 18yrs; 1971 to 1989 18yrs
Man Utd 1892 to 1908 16yrs; 1911 to 1952 41yrs 1967 to 1993 26yrs
Leeds Utd 1919 to 1969 50yrs; 1974 to 1992 18yrs
Blackburn Rovers 1889 to 1912 23yrs; 1914 to 1995 81 yrs
Chelsea 1905 to 1955 50yrs ; 1955 to 2005 50yrs
Everton 1891-1915 24yrs; 1939-63 24yrs; 1970-1985 15yrs; 1985 -2005 20+yrs
Newcastle Utd ; 1909 to 1927; 18yrs 1927 to 2005 78+yrs
Sunderland 1879 to 1891 12 years; 1895 to 1901 16 years; 1902 to 1912 10 years; 1913 to 1935 32 years; 1936 to 2005 71+yrs
Man City 1891 to 1937 46yrs; 1937 to 1968 31yrs; 1968 to 2005 37yrs
Spurs 1908 to 1951 43yrs; 1961 to 2005 44+yrs
Huddersfield 1888 to 1924 36yrs; 1926 to 2005 79+yrs
Wolves 1888 to 1954 66yrs ; 1959 to 2005 46+yrs
Aston Villa 1910 to 2005 95+yrs
Portsmouth 1920 to 1949 29yrs; 1950 to 2005 55+yrs
Ipswich 1938 to 1962 24yrs ; 1962 to 2005 43+yrs
Sheffield W 1904 to 1929 25yrs 1930 to 2005 75+yrs
WBA 1888 to 1920 32yrs 1920 to 2005 85+yrs
Burnley 1888 to 1921 33yrs ; 1921 to 1960 39yrs; 1960 to 2005 45+yrs
Derby Co 1888 to 1972 84yrs; 1974 to 2005 31+yrs
Notts F 1892 to 1978 86yrs ; 1978 to 2005 27+yrs
Sheffield Utd 1898 to 2005 107+yrs
Preston North End 1888 to 1889 1 year; 1890 … 115yrs

[Ian-TN]

Superb piece mate.

Rafa this year will, especially with all the injuries we've had, have learnt huge amounts about the mentality an the ability of all the players here. He'll have learnt who can adapt to his style of play an who can't. Who is good enough for his plans an who ain't.

As much as the hurt at the time, we'll be better for performances like Brum away. Whoever said yer learn more from a defeat than yer do from a win is right. Yer find out who has the right attitude, an not just the ability. Something which seems very important in this manager, not that it ain't in all.

Some look at the 1st half display at Highbury the other day an will say "same old same old, no improvement", but let's view the whole picture. We have reached 2 Cup finals this year. We have played the likes of Juve off the pitch. Beating these sorta teams is one thing, but playing 'em off the park is another.

Rafa will have no doubt got player's lined up for position he want's to add. He, like the rest of us, want's to improve on this season. An am sure he will. But one thing that isn't up for debate is that we'll have a few more up's an down's on the way to wherever we end up during Rafa's reign.

[Slugworth]

Superbly written piece Zappa, i cant really add a lot apart from as you said even the great teams had off days. Even Shanks, Bob, Joe and Kenny lost games sometimes badly.

Patience

YNWA

[X11LFC]

Thankyou for posting your thoughts Zappa - I hope some of the more impatient supporters take the time to read and digest!

The 'bad' days are glossed over when articles are written about Liverpool's Glory Days - but I sure can remember a few poor performances along the way! When you support a team, you take the good with the bad and get behind the team, not destroy their confidence.  That chant 'sing when your winning' (annoying though it is) hits a raw nerve sometimes.

We should make as much noise as we can, every match, to lift our team's performance - look how it has worked over the CL campaign.  I'm very much a positive vibes kind of person - send them onto the pitch and the players take strength from them.

How anyone can criticize Cisse is beyond me - that guy has the heart of a lion - just what any team would want.

[redannie]

Excellent article Zappa thankyou for expressing so eloquently what this poster has been feeling for some time.

I can only speak for myself but I think that advancing years have brought more patience.  Yes I have been fortunate enough to have seen it all since Shankly lead the club out of the 2nd division wilderness. However, that is history our current squad is the future and it is to them that we should be looking now. History can become an albatross to those who have to endure or live up to it.

I do wish the media representatives would stop referring to "Shankly  turning in his grave" and some such drivel whenever our team turns in a poor performance. Wake up folks and recognise the present and future. Shanks is long dead, God rest his soul. In Rafa I think we have someone more akin to Bob Paisley - modest, yet totally focussed with a ruthless streak lying behind a benign exterior .

Sadly, as you said modern society is obsessed with the quick fix, we should all take a deep breath count to 10 and learn that patience brings its own reward. Keep our disappointments " in house" instead of broadcasting them to the world and most of all keep the faith. Encourage instead of damn.

The future's bright. The future's Rafa

[WOOLTONIAN]

Great Expectations
(not just a Dickens novel)

I've spoken to my arl fella many times on this subject.
It's ok to go into a season with confidence, but to expect us to win the grand slam every year is a bit too much.
I started in 1962 and although there were loads of lean spells, there was always a confidence, that we would win something.
My arl fella started going in the war years when we won more games than we lost and he says there was a growing confidence that when the leagues started again, we would win the title. (we did)
The wilderness years were a blow to every red in the city, but most could see the writing on the wall and few were surprised when we did go down.

But what happened when we first came back up ?
All the old confidence came back and once again we were going to win everything.
Once the FA Cup had been won, the confidence turned to expectation.
Fans knew it was only a matter of time when titles would come thick and fast.
By the time I came along, we had taken our Fathers confidence and turned it into EXPECTATION.

I would hope that after the last 15 years, fans would adopt our fathers confidence, without adopting our expectations, which to be frank became arrogance.
How many times at the beginning of the season did you hear
"well the titles ours, what else are we gonna win"
Once we had won the Uefa, it got worse
"well the titles ours, obviously we'll win something in Europe, I wonder if we can win the FA as well"

Then the league did us no favours, lets have a new cup, one that we can play midweek.
Liverpudlians now had a new target.

"Well apart from the title which is ours already, and the obvious Euro success, what about this new shiny trophy"
what do liverpool go and do, win the bloody treble !

Will we ever learn ? Like shite will we.

next season, How many of us will be walking in the bookies

£5 yank
Liverpool for the League
Liverpool for the FA Cup
Liverpool for the League Cup
Liverpool for the Uefa
total cost £55.00 or £75.00 with singles

All I can say is thank God there isn't a fifth trophy, a £5 canadian is £130.00 or £155.00 with singles.

[Al Bol]

Aston Villa 1910 to 2005 95+yrs

Didn't Villa win the League in 1980/1981?  Excellent piece though.

[SuperSub77]

Excellent piece Zappa, enjoyed the read.

You are spot on mate. I think the expectations of the younger generation of our club is a reflection of society in general.

It makes you realise how special our dynasty of the 70s/80s was, probably never to be repeated.

It takes a special manager to win a major trophy. Obviously you need special players who perform for you, but it's down to the manager.
A great manager keeps the momentum of success rolling, year after year.  The Mancs are lucky that they recruited a man who admittedly has proved to be a great manager, but who is going to succeed him? You can't help but feeling that it will all be over when he retires.

We, on the other hand, had a dynasty of great men, created from within.


(by the way - I agree with you re posts as well. sick of reading shite and looking at stupid fuckin smilies, just so members can get a higher number of posts and a higher rating. Quality not quantity in my opinion!)

[Sweet Silver Song]

I have to say that it’s a well-written piece. But as a counter argument, I think it’s healthy (provided it’s done in the right way) that we have people who question and criticise what they are seeing. It’s all too easy to think things are rosy, or will be rosy again, but nothing, or not enough is done to make that happen. This leads to complacency. And even if we do reach the dizzy heights we had in previous years, I think it’s always good to have people staying on their toes. And a few descenting voices of self-analysis does no one any harm.

I remember watching our last championship team, and I don’t mind stating on here that I gave a bollocking to Gary Ablett from the stands. Why? Because I felt our standards were slipping (as it later  proved) and I didn’t want that to happen, I wanted us to maintain our high standards and I didn’t want us to go the way of Wolves or Huddersfield. A few reds turned on me that day, and wanted to know why I wasn’t supporting the players in the team. Trouble was, I cared too much about my team to watch in silence. I could see the first signs of permanent deterioration and wanted others to realise it too.  For Gary Ablett to become a regular in our team then, I realised it was the beginning of the end.

So, to make a counter point to your well written post, I don’t think criticisms, as long as it’s justified, should be censored.

[Sajets]

Superb piece. But i think that for me, as being a fan from other country, that long wait for title is easier. I have never seen Liverpool win the league. And though it makes me a little less of a fan for some of you it makes it easier to wait. But at the same time it doesn't lower my standards. I still want to be best and want the best players and want players giveng their all. Thats why i criticise sometimes. But i hardly jump to conclusions, i take positives from each match and hope that we have learned from our mistakes. Sometimes it is frustrating but it is to all of us.None of the fans like to see us lose but lets face it - we are going to lose some games every years. Thats why i don't lament after losing matches because there is no point to that. I just let the hurt go through me and let the hope gow once again.

Roll on CL final and next season

[GingerRed]

Didn't Villa win the League in 1980/1981?  Excellent piece though.

Yes, because they won the European Cup in '82, I think.

[Zappa]

Didn't Villa win the League in 1980/1981?  Excellent piece though.

I stand corrected - just a 70yr wait then 

Nice to know that there are several anoraks on here- as well as me

[Lanrmort]

I think there is a lot of garbage spouted on here after games, primarily when we get beat obviously.

The thing is, forums and football phone-ins serve that very purpose: to give people an immediate means of venting their spleens. It's instant gratification. A very modern phenomenon. More rational, considered analysis tends to come later in the cold light of (the next) day.

My guess is that forums in general wouldn't be as good if everyone was very measured and reasonable in their assessment of each match, player, performance.

Vive la difference, I say.

Banning people from posting garbage until they come up with sensible comments?

You'll be waiting a long time!

[GingerRed]

I stand corrected - just a 70yr wait then 

Nice to know that there are several anoraks on here- as well as me

I'm a real anorak for football stats, not just Liverpool but all clubs. Not only that, but I collect programmes, scarfs, badges - just a regular sad case really.

[redgie]

I believe that with a lot of these so called "knee jerk" reactions are posted/phoned in by mischievous scum, cockneys and bluenoses. No doubt there are a few out there who could do worse than being stuck in the kids pen for a couple of seasons. Kids Pen !!! that little creche in the corner of the Kop made a real fan out of you. 

[Zappa]

I have to say that it’s a well-written piece. But as a counter argument, I think it’s healthy (provided it’s done in the right way) that we have people who question and criticise what they are seeing.

I agree with you - mostly.

As long as the right way involves  the poster in some thought, consideration of the facts, allowance for the circumstances and reasonable expectations.

This site, most of the time, has some superb posters. (Nice to see Woolys response)  But recently there has been a tendancy toward "Player X is shite" type posts. It's actually against the forum guidelines/rules. WHat is perfectly acceptable are posts along the lines of "Player X hasn't been contributing much, perhaps it's because he needs to move inside/ support the attack/ be less selfish" A bit more positivity even in a negative post, and a bit more reasoning as to why the contributor holds that view. And most of us (including me) have been guilty of this at some time.

 Just recently there have been a few of the three word post- mongers who have posted items that started along the lines of "I don't normally go in for long posts, but I'll have a go" - I have not yet seen the "try" that wasn't worth reading. Lets try to make the thoughtful post the norm again.

[Zappa]

I believe that with a lot of these so called "knee jerk" reactions are posted/phoned in by mischievous scum, cockneys and bluenoses. No doubt there are a few out there who could do worse than being stuck in the kids pen for a couple of seasons. Kids Pen !!! that little creche in the corner of the Kop made a real fan out of you. 

Now I can't help but wonder whether this particular newbie is the real mcoy or a regular in disguise

[Darren Page1]

Good post mate--agree 100% about the "heskey is shit" conversations--fact is no-player who has ever played in red is shit, maybe not what we are used to or not used correctly (Jari) --just like you say

[baz]

Patience, Faith and class = Real Liverpool Fans. More recruits please

Well written piece of writing and its good your sentiments are on the front page for more people to see.

The supporters have endured a long run without the league title - which does remain the 'bread and butter' for all of us. However, althought we're so far off the top its quite clear that we will not be this far next year. Infact i think a lot of people will be in for quite a surprise with the obvious improvements next year.

At the end of the season we will look back at this 'nightmare' of a season - and take so many positives from it. The passion all around the club has been incredible to see. We've played some awesome football. We've put in some unbelievable displays which were not always rewarded with victory. And in those games in which we didn't turn up - well they would have been lessons for Rafa too. I bet they're a new experience to him too.

Rafa has had a very difficult year with everything in and around the club. He always seemed a more modest, shy character..i remember in one of his first press conferences..he was so apologetic about his language and it was Rick Parry who told him to stop apologising. But his confidence has come leaps and bounds and it will continue to grow. I loved his 'i've got some videos he can watch' line for Wenger. Class. The point is that you need an extremely clever personality who can hold their own at the helm of the club and it appears we have finally got someone like that - no disrespect to those gone before but Rafa is a step above.

In more praise for Rafa, he really has had to play with limited resources this year. I think with the board more confident in him he'll have more money to spend in the Summer. And i sincerely expect him to bring in some class players to the club - even if they are names we haven't heard of. With more players competing for positions nobody will be able to sit comfortably and will have to start raising their game. All good things for the future.

We hadn't lost more than 2-0 all season. On Sunday i was quite worried that was about to drastically change. Pity about our own misses when the chances arose. But the manner and the way in which we fought back in the second half was fantastic. It is so important to be able to fight back from a losing position.

As Liverpool fans we need to continue to remain patient. This year was less a transitional season, more a nightmare season. I think that the transition can be expected to last through the early part of next season, maybe even longer. I would love it if we were challenging from the word go, but i firmly believe that we're headed in the right direction. And when the championship finally arrives home, we will see celebrations greater than ever before.

As a final point, I think Rafa is about to set a standard which will be difficult, but not impossible, to sustain. One more awe-inspiring display and we'll be Champions of all of Europe. An unbelievable end to an unbelievable season.

[blert596]

Nice post mate.

As for venting anger after a defeat, well I think this is as good a place as any to do it. I often read through the reports when I get back from a match... and usually have a bit of a chuckle over the ones posted straight after the match. Its like walking into The Sandon straight after the game. Only its there for everyone to argue with all night. Normally I come on here on a Sunday night after a Sat match and have a bit of a giggle at some of the comments.

However, I watched Sundays game from me flat, and had the computer next to me. In a fit of depression I rattled off a post that was exactly how I felt at the time. (Maybe I should have went for a walk).  I don't have many good posts but this probably wasn't one of my better ideas. I reread the post the following day and thought "This is exactly what I try to avoid posting".  I think there will always be a gut reaction immediatley after a defeat, and posting rubbish on here is better than going down the nearest Bluenose pub to vent your frustration (though not always).

But the point is...its harmless and human nature. I'm sure many of the posters look back and think "Oh Christ, did I really type that?". I know I did!!

Anyway, thanks for the post and some cracking stats to have a laugh at people with.

[BazC]

brilliant.

fucking i hate knee jerkers..
oh and one piece of advice- don't go to .tv! i just saw a post- saying "sack benitez for selling hamann in the summer".

fuck knows what sort of article you'll write about that!

seriously though- nice one, best article i've read this week!

[ALPH1217]

Quite interesting. I've said this until I was blue in the face but things are cyclic in the world of sport. As far as the supporters of LFC are concerned I'm not sure who's had it rougher  .  .  the younger fans who have never experienced the glory years or the older people like me who yearn for those times again. Couldn't agree with you more regarding the knee-jerk reaction of many on here and other sites especially after a tough loss. Biscan and Traore for instance have been ripped apart unmercifully here and on other boards but both have played a vital part in us getting to Istanbul. I guess players are only as good as their last game which is a bit of a shame.

I've always been curious as to whether our fans from earlier years would have been this opinionated if the internet and message boards etc had been a part of their lives.

[muz]

Some of you have said Everton have waited 20 years since they won the league.They last won the title in 1987 which is 18 years ago.
Also mentioning poor performances during the glory years,anyone remember us losing 5-1 at Villa in the 76-77 season and losing 4-0 at Coventry in the 83-84 treble season.

[notyouraverage]

Great read and thank you for bringing up the issue of the quality of posts declining. I agree i think their should be a ban on posting for 24hours we lose so people can calm down and organise their thoughts

[RedIsTheColour]

I agree with your post. Only a fool wouldn't. But I'd just like to add that this is never going to change. In fact....it will only get worse.

I'm a patient fan. Always have been...always will be, but the facts of the matter are that for every patient and true football fan there are 10 'fans' who don't really care what happens on a Saturday afternoon. It's just an interest, a hobby, something to talk about in work for a half hour on Monday morning.

I'm sure these fans have always existed, I'm sure they were around 30 years ago, or 50 years ago, but these days it's never been easier to voice their opinions. The internet is the main reason for that. The other major reason is that vasts amount of money have flooded the game since Sky Sports and the likes arrived. What that's also resulted in is the game being more accessible to a wider audience.....a vastly wider audience and the result is more and more 'fans' of the type that I mentioned earlier. The explosion over the last 15 years in media coverage has also resulted in countless more TV and radio phone ins. In a nutshell, it's now piss easy for armchair fans to make armchair comments, without ever getting out of their armchairs.....so they do just that.

They are irritating, they are difficult to listen to (coz there's always one sitting in the pub behind you  ). But you, me and everyone else just needs to learn to switch off, or not read the post, or change radio stations or whatever.

Anyhoo....the post was a good read. Cheers.....and stay patient 

[HIRA]

Knee-jerk? I think it's a pretty easy reason to point the finger.

It's not knee-jerking that riles people mostly, although it does. Sometimes, anything that is critical riles people, whether constructive or not. Mostly it depends on the mood of the post, sometimes people don't care about the content.

It is not surprising if the people that totally agree with your post, find it hard to say anything critical, if constructive, after a humiliating defeat.

It just depends on how you take the criticism. People have a right to air their views, and one can only encourage, he cannot control everything.

[Paul F]

Absolutely outstanding piece of work Zappa.

Fans of any club who regularly get 30,000+ supporters are convinced that they should be challenging for the title every year.  But there is only one title.  Statistically you have to accept that it will happen infrequently, barring a cyclical spell of dominance for one side.  And it's a zero sum game - sometimes you have to accept that it's not your team that's bad - it's just that the other side were better.  Deal with it.  We should all be happy and proud that we've won more titles than anyone else - and so have the least reason to moan.  It sometimes appears that, because of past teams, Liverpool supporters think they have MORE right to moan.  The only excuse for moaning is when you see a lack of effort - particularly from a well-paid player.

Having said all that I'd rather read Reds moaning on here than listen to them moaning on 606.

[LOOPERVILLE]

Great site...! Loads and loads of good stuff, sure...! - BUT... MAINLY ALL ABOUT RIGHT NOW... 
Has NOBODY got ANY shots of that first great "WELCOME HOME" to The 'Pool - for "KENNY'S HEROES"  - WAY BACK IN 1977...?

[Red number seven]

Utter quality piece and well worth a link (thanks) and bump

May I just be presumptious and add to the list of annoying modern fan traits (implied in the 'money gives instant success' comments) the demands...

-For x million quid to 'be pumped in' (like it grows on a tree in Stanley Park),

-For a new investor to be found (no names, just find a Bootle billionaire who wants to spunk away a couple of hundred mill with no prospect of getting a return)

-For transfers of the latest, vaguest link whom noone has seen play except for 5 minutes on youtube or Eurogoals to happen instantly because we 'only have to throw the extra couple of mill' at the problem.

-For Mooresnparry (one person it seems - shocking haircut) to pull their finger out and deliver all of the above, because we all know a lot more than them about multimillion transfer deals, the state of LFC's finance and what it takes to run a football club, although noone of us would've thought of employing  Rafa, who we all agree is one of the greatest managers on the planet, but there's no point giving any credit there - Mooresnparry just got lucky, didn't they?

[vicgill]

Great read Zappa....;for those of us who lived through the glory years, 21 or 22 consecutive years in Europe....15yrs is a long time without the trophy that means so much (it was always Shankly's priority) League' Champions, he called it his bread and butter, everything else was the jam. but i feel sure that Rafa will bring this title home where it belongs