Author Topic: FSG discussion thread  (Read 744981 times)

Offline RedSince86

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7120 on: November 27, 2022, 10:15:49 am »
How reliable is Alex Miller for the mail on sunday?
From what I read on Twitter he's pretty clued up and reliable about the financial side of Football.
"Since its purchase by the sheikh of Abu Dhabi, Manchester City has managed to cheat its way into the top echelon of European football and create a global, immensely profitable football empire, ignoring rules along the way. The club's newfound glory is rooted in lies."

Offline Ocean Red

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7121 on: November 27, 2022, 10:17:21 am »
From what I read on Twitter he's pretty clued up and reliable about the financial side of Football.

OK thanks.

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7122 on: November 27, 2022, 10:35:51 am »
I don't know why anyone would be surprised if we are sold to Saudi's or any other oil state. Why do you think a bunch of american capitalists would care about who we are sold to? This is going to the highest bidder. FSG are a sports investment company.

I will be fucking astounded if John Henry goes to bed at night saying "we need to accept a few hundred millon less because I am not selling to that regime"
You don't generally become rich by having morals,
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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7123 on: November 27, 2022, 10:41:41 am »
I don't know why anyone would be surprised if we are sold to Saudi's or any other oil state. Why do you think a bunch of american capitalists would care about who we are sold to? This is going to the highest bidder. FSG are a sports investment company.

I will be fucking astounded if John Henry goes to bed at night saying "we need to accept a few hundred millon less because I am not selling to that regime"
You don't generally become rich by having morals,
Profit will be their overriding concern, although I’m sure they have some sense of feeling for the club and would want it to be looked after.

Then again, FSG will rightly feel let down by the gutless, spineless PL’s allowance of cheating from the state owned clubs that they might not give a fuck who they sell to now and just want out.

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7124 on: November 27, 2022, 10:50:42 am »
I don't know why anyone would be surprised if we are sold to Saudi's or any other oil state. Why do you think a bunch of american capitalists would care about who we are sold to? This is going to the highest bidder. FSG are a sports investment company.

I will be fucking astounded if John Henry goes to bed at night saying "we need to accept a few hundred millon less because I am not selling to that regime"
You don't generally become rich by having morals,

And yet the last sale of a football club imposed significant conditions to safeguard that club’s future. Including a ten year non divestment and commitment to transfer spending, facilities, and new stadium.

FSG have owned the club for long enough to get it I reckon. Any sale will have similar conditions attached.
You're all too fucking serious, the lot of you. Relax, we don't really matter.

Oh, and we should have an in's and out's topic, stickied.

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7125 on: November 27, 2022, 10:59:38 am »
Absolutely, and any relationship I have with Margot Robbie definitely won’t involve kidnapping and false imprisonment

Or a very vivid imagination fuelled by stills you’ve obtained of her deshabille.

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7126 on: November 27, 2022, 10:59:44 am »
That's a bit crap. But he does say 'Several sources report that consortium officials have approached Fenway Sports Group director Mike Gordon - the man responsible for the sale of Liverpool - to register their interest' so it sounds like he's just reporting what other sources are saying. Given that and the source is the Mail, I'm not at the believing it's at the real stage yet.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2022, 11:25:53 am by Hazell »
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Offline The G in Gerrard

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7127 on: November 27, 2022, 11:15:31 am »
Obviously none of us know where this process is in reality but I thought it'd be sooner rather than later when it first became public knowledge that they wanted to sell.

These reports suggest it's very much at start of process?

Offline Redric1970

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7128 on: November 27, 2022, 11:32:21 am »
I don't know why anyone would be surprised if we are sold to Saudi's or any other oil state. Why do you think a bunch of american capitalists would care about who we are sold to? This is going to the highest bidder. FSG are a sports investment company.

I will be fucking astounded if John Henry goes to bed at night saying "we need to accept a few hundred millon less because I am not selling to that regime"
You don't generally become rich by having morals,

Spot on, they couldn’t care less as long as they make their billions.

Offline Jm55

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7129 on: November 27, 2022, 12:00:01 pm »
Spot on, they couldn’t care less as long as they make their billions.

I’m not sure that’s necessarily true.

FSG will presumably want to continue investing, I believe if they ever wanted to, from example, invest in the NFL they need a substantial majority vote of approval from the owner of the relevant teams/franchises (I think it’s the NFL but even if it isn’t the point still stands) - I’m not sure it’s in their interests to sell one of the biggest names in the sporting world down the river to the highest bidder.

Not necessarily sure that prevents them from selling to sportswashers though as they’d obviously argue that the deal was in the club’s best interests financially etc, whilst ignoring the clear moral issues with it.

Offline NaivetyinBlack

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7130 on: November 27, 2022, 12:17:37 pm »
And yet the last sale of a football club imposed significant conditions to safeguard that club’s future. Including a ten year non divestment and commitment to transfer spending, facilities, and new stadium.

FSG have owned the club for long enough to get it I reckon. Any sale will have similar conditions attached.

What, about their previous actions have made you believe that ? They've always tried to do the opposite of what's expected and retracted after significant protests. They do not 'get it'. In fact, it is one of the main reasons why they might want out. The ESL was their brainchild, along with the Glazers. It is no wonder that after fan protests and subsequent shelving of the project, they've decided it is not worth it and sell. They would have no qualms, selling to the Saudis.

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7131 on: November 27, 2022, 12:32:41 pm »
What, about their previous actions have made you believe that ? They've always tried to do the opposite of what's expected and retracted after significant protests. They do not 'get it'. In fact, it is one of the main reasons why they might want out. The ESL was their brainchild, along with the Glazers. It is no wonder that after fan protests and subsequent shelving of the project, they've decided it is not worth it and sell. They would have no qualms, selling to the Saudis.

I’m not saying they wouldn’t sell to the Saudis or anyone for that matter. I’m expecting a sale to have significant conditions as regards the clubs future.
You're all too fucking serious, the lot of you. Relax, we don't really matter.

Oh, and we should have an in's and out's topic, stickied.

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7132 on: November 27, 2022, 12:34:47 pm »
What, about their previous actions have made you believe that ? They've always tried to do the opposite of what's expected and retracted after significant protests. They do not 'get it'. In fact, it is one of the main reasons why they might want out. The ESL was their brainchild, along with the Glazers. It is no wonder that after fan protests and subsequent shelving of the project, they've decided it is not worth it and sell. They would have no qualms, selling to the Saudis.

They're capitalists to the core. Their annoyance (rightly) has been that FFP hasn't been enforced as that was their whole plan for owning a football club.

They're not morally opposed to state ownership, they just don't want to have to compete against it, when they want to spend as little as possible on the team and just reinvest sales.

As soon as their ESL brainchild bit the dust they've been looking at cashing in, as they saw that as the last remaining avenue to keep accelerating growth in terms of the club's value.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline Golyo

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7133 on: November 27, 2022, 12:36:41 pm »
What, about their previous actions have made you believe that ? They've always tried to do the opposite of what's expected and retracted after significant protests. They do not 'get it'. In fact, it is one of the main reasons why they might want out. The ESL was their brainchild, along with the Glazers. It is no wonder that after fan protests and subsequent shelving of the project, they've decided it is not worth it and sell. They would have no qualms, selling to the Saudis.
The ESL wasn't their idea, but they were fully behind it, true. They don't see how you can compete in the PL. The public, the fans, and the media simply don't care about the financial shenanigans of mancity. It's not a fair competition. And don't get me started on PGMOL.
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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7134 on: November 27, 2022, 12:46:50 pm »
Can we just carry on with FSG?

If that is not an option, an investor like Ballmer would be ideal.

Working class background, appears as a reasonable guy to work with, would be ideal for a Football Club with a Working Class identity like Liverpool Football Club and someone ideal to work with a person like Klopp.

If things went down to Saudi Arabia or Qatar. Because let's be honest any buyers from those countries would be the states themselves, disguised as anything and any form you can imagine. Saudi Arabia appears a better option. Qatar would mean the end of Klopp (he has already spoken about the World Cup publicly) and Qatar has a lot going on (e.g. hostile relations with the rest of Arab Countries for many reasons not to be analysed right now).

Any LBO "investors" and I am done with football. I've hardly watched the World Cup.

Overall, the best case scenario would  be to sell a stake to Ballmer, leave the club in the hands of a sound Team of Directors and Klopp, keep FSG on board as majority or minority stakeholders and carry on.

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7135 on: November 27, 2022, 12:55:58 pm »
Even if FSG would intend to sell to regular investors, which none of us knows, its certainly in their best interest to welcome bids from oil states and keep up the rumour mill.
Whatever lines in the sand that FSG has drawn, they will keep that a very tight secret as long as possible.

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7136 on: November 27, 2022, 01:09:56 pm »
If they’re private owned I’m happy enough with that. Any criticism of a takeover from privately owned individuals/companies would make me deeply uncomfortable (unless they of course have really close ties to the state and help prop them up).

There's no such thing as a privately owned company in Saudi, its all owned by the state.

Think it's a little naive to believe PIF don't have ties to the Saudi government.

Its a soverign wealth fund, with the crown Prince as its chairman

https://www.pif.gov.sa/en/Pages/About-Timeline.aspx
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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7137 on: November 27, 2022, 01:29:12 pm »
Ben Jacobs@JacobsBen·28m
Understanding on links between #LFC & Qatar is potential investors are only in the thought process. Very early and exploratory stages. QSI not involved in any capacity (even in a supportive role). Their focus is on PSG and potentially bringing in a new minority investor in 2023.

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7138 on: November 27, 2022, 01:30:44 pm »
There's no such thing as a privately owned company in Saudi, its all owned by the state.

Its a soverign wealth fund, with the crown Prince as its chairman

https://www.pif.gov.sa/en/Pages/About-Timeline.aspx

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7139 on: November 27, 2022, 01:31:33 pm »
The Saudi minster gave face to face interview with BBC and Sky about their companies bidding for us and the mancs.  There was smoke, we'll see the fire soon.

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7140 on: November 27, 2022, 01:34:13 pm »
Ben Jacobs@JacobsBen·28m
Understanding on links between #LFC & Qatar is potential investors are only in the thought process. Very early and exploratory stages. QSI not involved in any capacity (even in a supportive role). Their focus is on PSG and potentially bringing in a new minority investor in 2023.

How many non-QSI Qatari billionaires are there
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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7141 on: November 27, 2022, 01:36:43 pm »
If we get bought by Saudi or Qatar I'm honestly done with football.

I just can't reconcile trophies with the horrendous stuff that those countries participate in. I'm not going into detail, as it's been all over the news for the last year or so, but there would be nothing left of the soul of the club. It would be an empty shell, propped up by monopoly money gained from human rights abuses.

Fuck that, we can't become City. We were the fucking good guys doing it the right way.

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7142 on: November 27, 2022, 01:46:59 pm »
It's the way our entire world is going, everything is up for sale and the people who have the money to buy it aren't going to be good guys with good intentions sadly. Our league is just gonna be turned into an internal competition for middle-eastern billionaires to compete amongst themselves to see who can spend the most money and accrue the most trophies (we're halfway there already of course).


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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7143 on: November 27, 2022, 01:54:45 pm »
I honestly wonder what the future of RAWK is should the club fall into the hands of such people. Is there any point to even doing match day commentary anymore?  All we have left is to talk about the good old days when we won stuff under our own steam with our own money.

I hate the uncertainty such speculation brings. It's cold comfort knowing City or Newcastle won't have it all their own way should this happen. But I fear it's only a matter of time at this point. :(
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Offline richmiller1

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7144 on: November 27, 2022, 01:58:05 pm »
Even if FSG would intend to sell to regular investors, which none of us knows, its certainly in their best interest to welcome bids from oil states and keep up the rumour mill.
Whatever lines in the sand that FSG has drawn, they will keep that a very tight secret as long as possible.

I find it difficult to imagine that too many 'genuine investors' could exist in current conditions, which is one of the things that puzzles me about the timing of us and United going onto the market within a heartbeat of each other.

We hit peak football in this country in about 2005-2010, since then each new generation has been progressively less interested in playing and watching football.

Plenty of hard data out there concerning this phenomenon, and much talk in pubs and on these boards as to the noticeable reduction in kids at Anfield over recent decades, but I've been struck twice this week by just how apparent that wider loss of interest is now becoming.

Firstly the youth football club my 5 year old lad is attached to announced they would only be forming one U7s team for next season based on indications of interest they had received. Twenty years ago they ran the equivalent of 6 teams in that age group.

Second anecdotal example is that I ventured out to the local sports bar on Friday night to watch the world cup. I spotted maybe 15 people who looked obviously under the age of 25 in a pretty full pub. The place was otherwise full of those of in the 30 to 60 bracket. The contrast with the major tournaments of the early 2000's was pretty bracing.

Overseas interest growing sharply has largely obscured that reality but the indications are that growth in those markets is now plateauing and the same demographics trends around youth interest levels are becoming apparent.

Now none of that necessarily precludes future revenue growth but it does at least suggest that substantial returns may be harder to come by in the next decade or so, and the risk of loss of European football (and associated revenues) is significant and growing thanks to Newcastle.

So that is already a fairly dubious looking pond for genuine investors to go fishing in.

Factor in now that alternative investment opportunities like Nasdaq are currently trading at pretty eye watering discounts to recent years and that the US economy looks like it will bounce quite strongly in the next few years and ask yourself the question: if you had £3bn in the piggy bank and maximising future returns was your primary concern, would you be investing in us (or United) at this time or would you be looking elsewhere for those returns? Personally I wouldn't go anywhere near a premier League club.

So that basically leaves us with egotists, sportswashers and idiots as our potential ownership pool at the current moment.

Which just takes me back to the question of sale timing. Why now? If stock markets weren't at such an obviously low ebb investing in a football club might look a more attractive proposition. United in particular, hitting the market now rather than in 2 years time is just really tough to comprehend.


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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7145 on: November 27, 2022, 01:59:45 pm »
Very worrying at the minute. I encouraged my 9-year old to
love the club as I do, so I just don't know how this pans out for us.

Will have to wait and see of course. I do believe that John Henry will not want
to be hounded by LFC fans for the rest of his years and that FSG will understand that this sale
will become their legacy, substantially now.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2022, 02:01:26 pm by lionel_messias »
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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7146 on: November 27, 2022, 02:06:49 pm »


Which just takes me back to the question of sale timing. Why now? If stock markets weren't at such an obviously low ebb investing in a football club might look a more attractive proposition. United in particular, hitting the market now rather than in 2 years time is just really tough to comprehend.

I can only presume FSG foresee a decline in the value of LFC as an asset. With the Glazers, who routinely take a £40-£50m odd dividend out of United, they will be envisioning diminishing returns, where they can't use the club as a piggy bank anymore.

FFP is dead; with the Saudis admitted to the league, running a successful and competitive club as a profitable endeavour has evaporated. Now the only way to get success is to put in more than you get out, which is not a sustainable business model - it's the play ground of people with money to burn.

Ever play a game of Monopoly where you know you could carry on for another hour, but the outcome of the game won't change?  You're gonna be gradually crushed financially so just cut your losses and get out the game?  That's where FSG are now, which is of course what the sportswashers likely want - drive out all competitors, crush all resistance, and envelop the whole market for their own ends.
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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7147 on: November 27, 2022, 02:21:42 pm »
Surely Klopp would resign?

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7148 on: November 27, 2022, 02:23:09 pm »
Surely Klopp would resign?

Let's hope it doesn't come to that.
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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7149 on: November 27, 2022, 02:23:37 pm »
Surely Klopp would resign?

You heard his interview before the Southampton game right? he said hes' not going anywhere.

Offline mickeydocs

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7150 on: November 27, 2022, 02:25:26 pm »
I can only presume FSG foresee a decline in the value of LFC as an asset. With the Glazers, who routinely take a £40-£50m odd dividend out of United, they will be envisioning diminishing returns, where they can't use the club as a piggy bank anymore.

FFP is dead; with the Saudis admitted to the league, running a successful and competitive club as a profitable endeavour has evaporated. Now the only way to get success is to put in more than you get out, which is not a sustainable business model - it's the play ground of people with money to burn.

Ever play a game of Monopoly where you know you could carry on for another hour, but the outcome of the game won't change?  You're gonna be gradually crushed financially so just cut your losses and get out the game?  That's where FSG are now, which is of course what the sportswashers likely want - drive out all competitors, crush all resistance, and envelop the whole market for their own ends.

The end of quantitative easing signalled the end of low discounts, which in turn has had an impact on global assets which were at record highs. The reason for these highs was the availability of free money meaning investors could play the long game with assets.
Now that we are seeing a dramatic increase in interest rates the valuation of assets will have to take the cost of finance over time into account in a way that hasn’t been necessary for investors since 2008 and the explosion of qe.

FSG (like most capitalists) are risk averse. Their involvement in the ESL proposals and their insistence that LFC are self sustaining evidentially support this opinion. Funny how capitalism no longer accepts risk.

There is now too much uncertainty so a good time to sell up and realise an incredible return.
Anyone that believes they will care about their legacy wants to believe this will be the case rather than put forward any evidence why this will come to pass.

It’s easy to believe when it’s going well.

Offline 24/7

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7151 on: November 27, 2022, 02:25:40 pm »
You heard his interview before the Southampton game right? he said hes' not going anywhere.
Of course, his own sense of ethics aside, there's no guarantee that any subsequent new owners would want to keep him......

Offline Caps4444

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7152 on: November 27, 2022, 02:27:26 pm »
I've been saying for weeks now the premier league won't let it happen if that's the case. Like you say human rights would all of a sudden be front and centre.

Unlikely as precedence has been set with Saudi takeover of Newcastle….no chance it can be stopped.

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7153 on: November 27, 2022, 02:28:50 pm »
You heard his interview before the Southampton game right? he said hes' not going anywhere.

Yeah but if the Qatari’s invest then that could be different. You would hope that Mike Gordon, who appears to have a great relationship with Klopp, would factor in these things.

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7154 on: November 27, 2022, 02:30:05 pm »
Of course, his own sense of ethics aside, there's no guarantee that any subsequent new owners would want to keep him......

That thought makes me nervous. Of all the things that could go wrong, either Klopp resigning or getting the boot would be right up there. A total disaster for me.
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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7155 on: November 27, 2022, 02:30:22 pm »
Obviously none of us know where this process is in reality but I thought it'd be sooner rather than later when it first became public knowledge that they wanted to sell.

These reports suggest it's very much at start of process?

I personally think this is far more advanced than we have been told…these things are not played out in the public eye….I wouldn’t be surprised if an official announcement is made before Xmas

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7156 on: November 27, 2022, 02:30:30 pm »
Of course, his own sense of ethics aside, there's no guarantee that any subsequent new owners would want to keep him......

If the new owners got rid of Kloppo before his time they'd be out the door as quick as they came in mate.  We'd make sure of that.
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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7157 on: November 27, 2022, 02:31:05 pm »
Yeah but if the Qatari’s invest then that could be different. You would hope that Mike Gordon, who appears to have a great relationship with Klopp, would factor in these things.

Did his body language tell you that or something? Take the man at his word.

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7158 on: November 27, 2022, 02:31:59 pm »
Ben Jacobs@JacobsBen·28m
Understanding on links between #LFC & Qatar is potential investors are only in the thought process. Very early and exploratory stages. QSI not involved in any capacity (even in a supportive role). Their focus is on PSG and potentially bringing in a new minority investor in 2023.

QSI maybe not, but what about QIA?

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7159 on: November 27, 2022, 02:32:32 pm »


Did this new rules take effect or still ? it will basically disqualify City sponsors and limit what Newcastle can spend because of the fair market value assessment.



Premier League sponsorship deals over £1m will have to be verified after rule change

Club sponsorship deals worth more than £1 million will have to be submitted to the Premier League to check it is not an “associated party” transaction.

As first reported by The Times, new regulations were agreed last week and sent to clubs, despite opposition from Newcastle United and Manchester City.

If the Premier League board suspects a transaction is from an “associated party” or “is otherwise than at arm’s length”, it will now conduct a “fair market value assessment” to determine whether its value has been evidently inflated.

The threshold for this is deals over £1 million, including payments from associated parties to clubs’ players, managers and senior officials.

These types of transactions have come under scrutiny in recent months due to Newcastle’s takeover by the Saudi Arabia-backed consortium.

Despite concerns, the Premier League ruled that the Saudi Arabia Public Investment Fund (PIF), which has an 80 per cent stake in Newcastle, is separate from the state of Saudi Arabia.

In October, Premier League clubs moved to block Newcastle from making lucrative sponsorship deals in an emergency meeting.

The clubs passed a temporary amendment banning commercial opportunities involving pre-existing business relationships, known as related party transactions.

Under the new rules, clubs now have until January 11 to submit their sponsorship deals since January 2016 to form a “databank” — promoted clubs must submit deals from the past five years. These deals will be subject to the “fair market value assessment”.

(Photo: Peter Byrne/PA Images via Getty Images)

So, what is an ‘associated party’?
The Premier League says it will judge an “associated party” on the “substance of the relationship and not merely the legal form”.

An associated party can be defined as having “material influence over the club or (being) an entity in the same group of companies as the club”.

Close family members are also covered, as well as entities holding loan, debt or other security interests.

Also included is when a club and an entity are “directly or indirectly controlled, jointly controlled, or materially influenced by the same government, public or state-funded body or by the same party”.