Author Topic: Today's shooting - The Sandy Hook Memorial Thread - Thoughts and Prayers  (Read 528044 times)

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #200 on: March 31, 2016, 04:49:06 pm »
But it really shouldn't be puzzling. When you get a chance, read Werner Sombart's 'Why Is There No Socialism in the United States'.

The below link has many of his excerpts from his piece along with some commentary on the excerpts.

http://savingcommunities.org/docs/sombart.werner/nosocialismus.html#folly

Quote
Why Is There No Socialism In the United States is the title of an essay written in serial form in the late 1800s by Werner Sombart....

Are you sure that's relevant?

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #201 on: March 31, 2016, 06:09:25 pm »
They'll pop an app in your ass
:lmao ffs
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Offline Lone Star Red

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #202 on: March 31, 2016, 10:19:12 pm »
As evidenced by Macphisto's post, at the very least, the question is still relevant. I think Sombart pretty accurately captured the cultural differences and beliefs and outlooks between Americans and Euro's that is still widely prevalent today, despite the global, economic and cultural changes that have occurred over the last 100 or so years.


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Offline Corkboy

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #203 on: March 31, 2016, 11:36:05 pm »
As evidenced by Macphisto's post, at the very least, the question is still relevant. I think Sombart pretty accurately captured the cultural differences and beliefs and outlooks between Americans and Euro's that is still widely prevalent today, despite the global, economic and cultural changes that have occurred over the last 100 or so years.

That page you linked to is a clearly stated criticism of Sombart's beliefs and specifically that essay that you highlighted. I'm confused.

Offline Corkboy

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Offline Wigwamdelbert

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #205 on: April 12, 2016, 01:43:40 pm »
States with highest gun ownership rates have highest suicide rates.
That's, quite frankly, preposterous. The 3 states named, Wyoming, Montana and Alaska also have other things in common, e.g., being the 3 least density populous, so the link could also be "States where people live miles away from each other have highest suicide rates" or "States with most lonely people have highest suicide rates", the correlating states with lowest gun ownership are also all in the top 15 density populous. While I don't doubt there is linkage, mental health and suicide needs better awareness than that article gives it.
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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #206 on: April 12, 2016, 02:09:45 pm »
U.S. 2016 figures so far.. as of today..

13,985  incidents
3,544  deaths
7,171  injuries

Kids from 0-11 killed or injured: 141
Teens from 12-17 killed or injured: 786

Number of mass shootings: 62

Accidental shootings: 677 


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Offline Corkboy

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #207 on: April 12, 2016, 02:11:14 pm »
That's, quite frankly, preposterous. The 3 states named, Wyoming, Montana and Alaska also have other things in common, e.g., being the 3 least density populous, so the link could also be "States where people live miles away from each other have highest suicide rates" or "States with most lonely people have highest suicide rates", the correlating states with lowest gun ownership are also all in the top 15 density populous. While I don't doubt there is linkage, mental health and suicide needs better awareness than that article gives it.

The article is perfectly accurate. Nobody said anything about causation.

Offline Wigwamdelbert

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #208 on: April 12, 2016, 03:11:03 pm »
The article is perfectly accurate. Nobody said anything about causation.
It may well be accurate, but having worked in that area, it gets my goat when people idly link suicide to their own political agenda without fully understanding the root causes. Don't get me wrong, I think America needs far, far better gun control and to get rid of the "right to bear arms" which is only a throwback to the militias from the War of Independence, but just to casually conflate suicide with gun ownership does no service at all to the poor souls who see no other path for them.
Oh, and I am not having at go at you, sorry if that seems to be the case, I think the argument that lady is making is preposterous, ill-informed and shows a real lack of understanding about mental health issues!
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #209 on: April 12, 2016, 03:28:17 pm »
It may well be accurate, but having worked in that area, it gets my goat when people idly link suicide to their own political agenda without fully understanding the root causes. Don't get me wrong, I think America needs far, far better gun control and to get rid of the "right to bear arms" which is only a throwback to the militias from the War of Independence, but just to casually conflate suicide with gun ownership does no service at all to the poor souls who see no other path for them.
Oh, and I am not having at go at you, sorry if that seems to be the case, I think the argument that lady is making is preposterous, ill-informed and shows a real lack of understanding about mental health issues!

Maybe not. In simple terms, if I have mental health issues, do you think I am more or less likely to kill myself if I have a gun?

"If guns were less available, fewer people would succeed in killing themselves, even if many would seek alternative ways of trying, concludes Augustine Kposowa, sociology professor at the University of California, Riverside.

In his new study, "Impact of Firearm Availability and Gun Regulation on State Suicide Rates," published in the journal Suicide and Life-Threatening Behavior, Kposowa found that household gun ownership was strongly associated with both suicides by all methods, and by use of firearms. Weapon storage practices also had a significant impact on suicide rates.

"In general, the findings of the study are consistent with the proposition that household gun ownership and keeping guns in the home that are loaded, and especially loaded guns that are unlocked, are significant contributors to the U.S. suicide rates at the state level," explained Kposowa." source

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #210 on: April 12, 2016, 03:29:55 pm »
So in a new paper published in the International Review of Law and Economics, we studied the relationship between guns and suicide in the U.S. from 2000 to 2009. Using five measures of gun ownership and controlling for other factors associated with suicide, such as mental illness, we consistently found that each 1 percentage-point increase in household gun ownership rates leads to between 0.5 and 0.9 percent more suicides. Or, to put it the other way, a percentage-point decrease in household gun ownership leads to between 0.5 and 0.9 percent fewer suicides.

source

Offline Wigwamdelbert

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #211 on: April 12, 2016, 03:43:06 pm »
Yes, people are more likely to be successful in a suicide attempt if they own a firearm, of course, that is a given, the firearm makes it instantaneous, little hope for intervention that can be seen in overdose cases, for example. Yes, ownership makes it more likely for a successful suicide attempt. But one cannot simply control "for other factors such as mental illness", that is just not possible. Suicide comes as a result of mental distress, this may be a long term "mental illness" or a short-term situational distress, such as relationship breakdown, in short, it is nothing that anyone in the field "controls" for, because you can't do it.
In simple terms, if you are in a state of such mental distress as to attempt suicide, you are equally likely to make that attempt whether or not you have a gun, but you are, of course, more likely to be successful with it, but equally, in simple terms, I don't think many are more likely to attempt suicide just because they happen to own a gun
« Last Edit: April 12, 2016, 03:46:52 pm by Wigwampaddy »
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #212 on: April 12, 2016, 03:49:19 pm »
In simple terms, if you are in a state of such mental distress as to attempt suicide, you are equally likely to make that attempt whether or not you have a gun, but you are, of course, more likely to be successful with it, but equally, in simple terms, I don't think many are more likely to attempt suicide just because they happen to own a gun

"Even after accounting for suicide attempt rates, levels of firearm ownership largely explain the variation in suicide mortality across the 50 states."

"Gun owning households do not have more mental health problems than non-gun owning households; differences in mental health do not explain why gun owners and their families are at higher risk for completed suicide than non-gun owning families."

"We analyzed the relationship of gun availability and suicide among differing age groups across the 9 US regions. Levels of gun ownership are highly correlated with suicide rates across all age groups, even after controlling for lifetime major depression and serious suicidal thoughts."

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-ownership-and-use/

Offline Wigwamdelbert

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #213 on: April 12, 2016, 04:01:22 pm »
"Even after accounting for suicide attempt rates, levels of firearm ownership largely explain the variation in suicide mortality across the 50 states."

"Gun owning households do not have more mental health problems than non-gun owning households; differences in mental health do not explain why gun owners and their families are at higher risk for completed suicide than non-gun owning families."

"We analyzed the relationship of gun availability and suicide among differing age groups across the 9 US regions. Levels of gun ownership are highly correlated with suicide rates across all age groups, even after controlling for lifetime major depression and serious suicidal thoughts."

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-ownership-and-use/
So owning a gun make sit more likely to complete suicide, that is a given. There is an important distinction between suicide rates/attempts to be made. In the initial article with which I took issue, my problem is with the conflation of the suicide rate of 3 very large, very sparse states and then simply extrapolating to "oh, they have high gun ownership, that's why!", it's bollocks. If I lived in Wyoming, Montana or Alaska, I would want a gun, because, well, bears. But owning that gun would not increase the likelihood of my wanting to attempt suicide. The high rate per capita in those states is more likely to be as a result of the isolation, not gun ownership.
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #214 on: April 12, 2016, 04:06:18 pm »
If I lived in Wyoming, Montana or Alaska, I would want a gun, because, well, bears. But owning that gun would not increase the likelihood of my wanting to attempt suicide.

The studies and numbers I've posted make it very clear that the likelihood of killing yourself would in fact increase, whether you "wanted to" or not. I've given you several sources that confirm that now, so unless you have contradictory evidence, rather than your own beliefs, there isn't much point in continuing.

Offline Wigwamdelbert

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #215 on: April 12, 2016, 04:35:24 pm »
The studies and numbers I've posted make it very clear that the likelihood of killing yourself would in fact increase, whether you "wanted to" or not. I've given you several sources that confirm that now, so unless you have contradictory evidence, rather than your own beliefs, there isn't much point in continuing.
Sorry, the studies show the likelihood of completing suicide rise with gun ownership, and I freely admit that, but the initial article I don't like is one that unnecessarily points at high suicide rates in some states, which, as I point out, is a conflation too far. There are other factors at play for high suicide attempts, the completion rate aside, and these are not my "beliefs" as you put it, I have experience in the field and am annoyed at the way in which people point to a single issue without understanding the whole.
I don't like guns, I don't like mental distress, I don't like people feeling so low they want to contemplate suicide, but that lady simply cannot say that the high suicide attempt rate in 3 sparsely populated states is down to one sole issue.
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Offline Wigwamdelbert

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #216 on: April 12, 2016, 04:41:11 pm »
For example:

A comprehensive national study of college students indicated that 55% of undergraduates and half of graduate students had prior suicidal ideation, with 18% and 15%, respectively, having seriously considered suicide (Jayson, 2008). Alcohol-related problems experienced by college students (and the perceived burdensomeness and thwarted sense of belonging that such problems typically engender) may have a particularly strong relationship to suicide risk among this population (Lamis, 2011). Wyoming’s high suicide numbers and rates for college-aged residents (ages 20-24) suggest that this group may be particularly vulnerable to suicidal behaviors.
As might be expected given the state’s racial composition, the overwhelming majority of suicides occurring over the past decade (94%) have been completed by white residents. Native Americans accounted for 3.3% of suicides in Wyoming during the decade, but their average per capita suicide rate (24.55 per 100,000 persons) was 25% higher than that of white residents. Also a concern for this population are suicide clusters, such as the one that struck Wind River in fall 1985, leaving ten Native American males ages 14-25 dead from suicide by hanging.
C. Regional Explanations for Wyoming’s High Suicide Rates
It has
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Offline Wigwamdelbert

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #217 on: April 12, 2016, 04:44:33 pm »
Also:
It has long been an observed phenomenon that high suicide rates in the United States are centered in certain areas of the country. Speculative theories and anecdotal explanations have been around for years, but without much supporting data. A recent study sought to scientifically analyze seven “high-suicide” states located primarily in the Rocky Mountain West (including Wyoming) and compare them to five historically “low suicide” states, in an to attempt to determine common characteristics of suicide among these geographic regions. These researchers concluded that there were two primary components that explained the high levels of suicide in Wyoming and other western states over time: (1) firearm access; and (2) “regional context” (Shrira, 2010). Data would seem to confirm the validity of the first conclusion, since Wyoming leads the nation in the rate of suicide deaths by firearm over the last decade (13.32 per 100,000 persons), which is more than double the national firearm suicide rate and roughly 400% higher than the average rate in the northeast region of the United States, in which firearm access is more restrictive.
With respect to “regional context” the research indicates that the common characteristic among states of the high-suicide region is low population density, which in turn contributes to an increase in environmental suicide risk factors such as social isolation and lack of access to mental health care services (Shrira, 2010). Another consideration is that many residents of rural areas espouse a strong Protestant work ethic, which may increase the likelihood of suicide when job loss or health problems prevent them from working (Shrira, 2010). Given the cultural value placed on self-reliance and personal independence in this high-suicide region, the loss of that independence – for example through unemployment, old age, or chronic illness – can be devastating, particularly for men.
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #218 on: April 12, 2016, 04:50:06 pm »
that lady simply cannot say that the high suicide attempt rate in 3 sparsely populated states is down to one sole issue.

This seems to be the bit you're not getting. She never said that. She never said it was down to one sole issue, and nor did I. Your post just above confirms there are at least two factors, and gun ownership is one of them. All she and I pointed out was that there is a high correlation.

Also, when you're quoting other people's work, please provide a source.

Offline oldfordie

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #219 on: April 12, 2016, 04:54:27 pm »
The studies and numbers I've posted make it very clear that the likelihood of killing yourself would in fact increase, whether you "wanted to" or not. I've given you several sources that confirm that now, so unless you have contradictory evidence, rather than your own beliefs, there isn't much point in continuing.
I agree, I actually can't see how it can be argued high suicides rates and killings are not linked to guns. of course there not the cause of why people commit suicide but that's not the suggestion anyway. so if for example some of the northern states population carry more guns per head then you don't need a mountain of research to prove the connection to guns.
People can do serious harm to themselves in a moment of madness but it all takes time.  people have slashed there wrists or taken overdoses and countless other ways to kill themselves and recovered due to emergency surgery etc. many people take tablets and come to your senses in the following minutes and phoned for help, same applys to slashing your wrists etc. you can put a gun to your head in seconds, pull the trigger and your gone.
So the likelihood of killing yourself when you have a gun is far more higher as it's far more quicker and efficient and theres no chance to reflect and come to your senses,there no chance of recovery if found by someone else.
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Offline Wigwamdelbert

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #220 on: April 12, 2016, 05:10:12 pm »
This seems to be the bit you're not getting. She never said that. She never said it was down to one sole issue, and nor did I. Your post just above confirms there are at least two factors, and gun ownership is one of them. All she and I pointed out was that there is a high correlation.

Also, when you're quoting other people's work, please provide a source.
No need to get narky, like I said, I am not having a go at you :wave

The article and its associated headline focus very much on the 3 states Montana, Wyoming and Alaska and the link between them of high gun ownership, but neglects the other similarities, such as social isolation. Other factors such as unemployment are equally unexplored. The very geography and the rural nature of the states could equally said to be both a reason for high gun ownership (for bears!) and for high suicidal ideation, so there is a potential flip side to the argument - there is a high correlation between living in a rural state and gun ownership. There is a high correlation in living in a rural state and suicide. Both those statements are as valid.

I just didn't like the initial article and the way the evidence is presented - mental distress is very multi faceted, doesn't mean to say I don't think guns should be rounded up worldwide and melted down to make beer tokens. Then we can share a beer and fuggetabaddit
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #221 on: April 12, 2016, 05:15:30 pm »
No need to get narky, like I said, I am not having a go at you :wave

Far from it, but please do provide sources. The big stickied thread at the top of the News and Current Affairs Forum says so.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=145341.0

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #222 on: April 28, 2016, 12:52:39 pm »
Another one today. A 2 year old shot her mum in the back after the gun slipped from underneath a seat as they were driving along a highway. The mother died.
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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #223 on: April 28, 2016, 01:12:06 pm »
Another one today. A 2 year old shot her mum in the back after the gun slipped from underneath a seat as they were driving along a highway. The mother died.

wow. hope the innocent child survived unhurt...

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #224 on: April 28, 2016, 01:46:33 pm »
U.S. 2016 figures so far.. as of today..

16,428  incidents
4,184  deaths
9,454  injuries

Kids from 0-11 killed or injured: 170
Teens from 12-17 killed or injured: 914

Number of mass shootings: 89

Accidental shootings: 782 


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Offline BarryCrocker

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #225 on: April 28, 2016, 02:05:36 pm »
U.S. 2016 figures so far.. as of today..

16,428  incidents
4,184  deaths
9,454  injuries

Kids from 0-11 killed or injured: 170
Teens from 12-17 killed or injured: 914

Number of mass shootings: 89

Accidental shootings: 782 


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Today marks the 20th Anniversary of Australia's worst massacre @ Port Arthur in Tasmania. 35 people were killed and 23 injured by a single gun-man who was captured alive by police.

There have been zero mass shootings since a ban on semi-automatic weapons and a buy-back implemented by the government in the immediate aftermath.
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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #226 on: April 28, 2016, 04:04:21 pm »
Another one today. A 2 year old shot her mum in the back after the gun slipped from underneath a seat as they were driving along a highway. The mother died.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/apr/28/milwaukee-two-year-old-son-mother-shot

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #227 on: April 28, 2016, 04:29:24 pm »
I think one of the worst things about all this is that I'm slowly becoming desensitised to these shootings, like it's becoming the norm.  Kids are shooting their parents because the guns are in and around them like it's a normal fucking thing.  Christ on a bike, it's absolute insanity.
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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #228 on: April 29, 2016, 11:40:52 am »
Thought this was interesting..

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2015/09/gun-violence-deaths-exceed-military-fatalities-us-wars

More Americans Have Been Shot to Death in the Last 25 Years Than Have Died in Every War

On Monday, yet another deadly shooting—this time at Mississippi's Delta State University—made national news. At least one person was killed, and as of Monday night, the suspect had not been apprehended.

This chart, pulled from an unrelated Center for American Progress report published on Monday, provides timely context on the prevalence of gun deaths in the United States. The chart tallies gun accidents, suicides, and murders, and shows that the number of gun deaths in the United States since 1989 exceeds the number of American combat fatalities in 239 years of US history—from the Revolutionary War to the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan. (Note: The military total pictured in the chart below represents only the number of American military killed in battle. The absolute total of US military killed in wartime since 1776 is higher, at more than 1.1 million, according to estimates from the Department of Veterans Affairs.)

Here's how the numbers shake out:




The report does not just focus on gun violence, but looks at the positions of the current group of Republican presidential hopefuls on a number of conservative mainstay issues, such as immigration, climate science, and taxes. Titled "Right of Reagan," the report uses former President Ronald Reagan, considered by many to be a model of conservatism, as a benchmark for measuring the extremism of many of the candidates. It notes that while Reagan opposed the National Rifle Association on several issues, including background checks and an assault weapons ban, many of the top GOP contenders have been highly rated by the NRA for their unwavering opposition to gun control.

Most GOP candidates oppose closing loopholes in the background check system—loopholes that "enable criminals to evade the system and purchase guns online, at gun shows, in parking lots, and just about anywhere else," write the report's authors. Billionaire real estate mogul Donald Trump, the current GOP front-runner, said this summer that he opposes expanding background checks, though in his 2000 book he wrote that he supported an assault weapons ban and longer waiting periods for gun purchases. Siding with the NRA is a common strategy among the candidates, the report notes: The powerful gun lobby group is one "that many Republicans dare not cross."
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Offline KillieRed

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #229 on: May 3, 2016, 06:35:36 pm »

Maybe Mexico should seriously think about building that wall...
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Offline ShrewKop

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #230 on: May 12, 2016, 02:51:15 pm »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36273488

A gun used to shoot dead unarmed Florida teenager Trayvon Martin is to be auctioned by the man who shot him, George Zimmerman.
Mr Zimmerman, a neighbourhood watchman, was cleared over the death of the 17-year-old in February 2012 after saying he acted in self-defence.
He said he was selling the gun partly to raise funds to fight "Hillary Clinton's anti-firearm rhetoric".
The Martin family would not "comment on the actions of that person", they said.
"The Trayvon Martin Foundation is committed to its mission of ending senseless gun violence in the United States," his family said in a statement to media in Florida.
"This election season, we are laser focused on furthering that mission."
When asked by Florida television channel WOFL what he would say to people opposed to the sale, Mr Zimmerman said: "They're not going to be bidding on it, so I couldn't care less about them.''



This story made my blood boil - a foul human being who is making profit off killing another human. How he can sleep at night what he has done, and what he is doing is beyond me.

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #231 on: May 12, 2016, 06:31:34 pm »
Yes I was fuming about that story. What an absolute thundercunt.
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Offline dalarr

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #232 on: May 12, 2016, 08:42:33 pm »
According to the BBC, Zimmerman has defended the auction saying "I'm a free American, and I can do what I'd like with my possessions."

Of course he can, no doubt about it. But as a free American (and as a human being), he also has the right to show compassion, respect, dignity and empathy.

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #233 on: May 12, 2016, 08:50:30 pm »
Given what we know about America, I'd be thoroughly unsurprised if Trayvon Martin's killer ended up murdered

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #234 on: May 12, 2016, 08:50:58 pm »
Yes I was fuming about that story. What an absolute thundercunt.

So is the person who eventually buys it, doesn't take much to imagine why they want it.
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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #235 on: May 12, 2016, 08:52:22 pm »


Of course he can, no doubt about it. But as a free American (and as a human being), he also has the right to show compassion, respect, dignity and empathy.

No he doesn't. You forget, he's American.
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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #236 on: May 12, 2016, 09:14:21 pm »
No he doesn't. You forget, he's American.

The widespread disgust in America would suggest it's not all Americans.

Mr. Zimmerman’s auction plan incited a wave of denunciations from critics, among them politicians, sports figures and Hollywood entertainers. Representative Hakeem Jeffries, a Democrat from Brooklyn, released a statement calling Mr. Zimmerman a “cold-blooded killer” who should be in prison. On Twitter, the move was described as “sick,” “disgusting” and “beyond tasteless.” NYT

Offline BarryCrocker

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #237 on: May 13, 2016, 08:45:18 am »
Given what we know about America, I'd be thoroughly unsurprised if Trayvon Martin's killer ended up murdered

Probably by the same gun. Now wouldn't that be ironic.
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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #238 on: May 13, 2016, 08:58:17 am »
No he doesn't. You forget, he's American.

What a xenophobic thing to say. Guess it's acceptable because it's against Americans.

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #239 on: May 13, 2016, 02:11:30 pm »