Author Topic: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)  (Read 177105 times)

Offline Asam

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1880 on: June 12, 2021, 05:00:52 pm »
Well no one disagrees with people following international law.

But I also asked for a realistic solution. And a single state won’t be it.

Why not? Well, Israel was set up on the back of a genocidal antisemitic regime literally trying to kill every Jew on the planet. This of course wasn’t the first time someone had tried this, but was (by some extraordinary distance) the most effective.  Given these two millenia of persecution and attempts genocide I’m sure you can understand (if not agree with) Jews wanting a country where they could be safe from persecution by government.

Wel, why is this relevant? Because Hamas have the declared aim of killing all Jews on earth. Thus, the chances of any Israeli signing up for a situation where the government may be put into the hands of people who are grotesquely antisemitic and have the intention of attempting another genocide of the Jewish people is (to put it mildly) zero.

So I want a solution that is realistic, and by that, I mean realistic for both sides. Not finger pointing, not blame, solutions.

Hamas is not hell bent on killing Jews, if they were then why are there so few Jewish people killed by Hamas over the years? It’s rhetoric, Palestinians want their human rights and self determination & let’s not forget it was European Christians that are responsible for what happened to the Jews

The two state solution is a non starter, the map of Israel looks like a Swiss cheese, you cannot create two states, where are the borders of the Israeli state? The only logical answer is a single state with equal human rights, otherwise the can will continue to be kicked down the road

Offline Asam

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1881 on: June 12, 2021, 05:02:27 pm »
Er, how does that affect the historical record? If all the reputable histories trace the history of modern Arab-Israeli violence back to the indigenous reaction against the influx of Jewish immigrants pre-WWII, does your favouring a single youtube historian qualify the discrediting of existing histories?

Now I'm not one to cling to established histories in light of better readings of available evidence, and I think that revisionism is a very good thing, but it has to be backed by good arguments and evidence. Your above post is doing an awful job attempting it, by building up an individual by way of experience and ancestry. That's not how history works.

Why are you calling them immigrants? They’re not immigrants, who in the Palestinian government invited them? You facts are clearly biased if you thinking the Jews were immigrants

Offline Sangria

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1882 on: June 12, 2021, 05:02:53 pm »
Hamas is not hell bent on killing Jews, if they were then why are there so few Jewish people killed by Hamas over the years? It’s rhetoric, Palestinians want their human rights and self determination & let’s not forget it was European Christians that are responsible for what happened to the Jews

The two state solution is a non starter, the map of Israel looks like a Swiss cheese, you cannot create two states, where are the borders of the Israeli state? The only logical answer is a single state with equal human rights, otherwise the can will continue to be kicked down the road

That's the worst justification I've ever seen.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1883 on: June 12, 2021, 05:04:28 pm »
Why are you calling them immigrants? They’re not immigrants, who in the Palestinian government invited them? You facts are clearly biased if you thinking the Jews were immigrants

What Palestinian government? It was the British, or maybe even the Ottomans, who were the government at the time. IIRC it was the Ottomans, so it was pre-WWI.
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Offline Asam

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1884 on: June 12, 2021, 06:50:50 pm »
What Palestinian government? It was the British, or maybe even the Ottomans, who were the government at the time. IIRC it was the Ottomans, so it was pre-WWI.

Palestine had a government, moreover the people of the country had a democratic will and that was not to give their homeland over to foreign settler invaders

I don’t know how people can believe a narrative which says that somehow Israel was created in a vacuum and there was no government, if that was the case why has their been a Palestinian movement for self determination? How was it possible to give 85% of Palestine to the Jews if there was no Palestine?

This is such a red herring, let’s focus on the key things that actually matter:

Palestinians did not invite European settlers to their country
European settler Jews terrorised the Palestinians forcing them to leave
Palestinians have been been given their right to self determination
Israel is a racist apartheid state with exclusive rights for Jews, over 30 different laws which discriminate against Palestinians
Countless examples of daily racism and oppression against the Palestinians by the Jewish state, different standard of treatment by the police, different ownership rights over land


Offline Sangria

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1885 on: June 12, 2021, 06:56:36 pm »
Palestine had a government, moreover the people of the country had a democratic will and that was not to give their homeland over to foreign settler invaders

I don’t know how people can believe a narrative which says that somehow Israel was created in a vacuum and there was no government, if that was the case why has their been a Palestinian movement for self determination? How was it possible to give 85% of Palestine to the Jews if there was no Palestine?

This is such a red herring, let’s focus on the key things that actually matter:

Palestinians did not invite European settlers to their country
European settler Jews terrorised the Palestinians forcing them to leave
Palestinians have been been given their right to self determination
Israel is a racist apartheid state with exclusive rights for Jews, over 30 different laws which discriminate against Palestinians
Countless examples of daily racism and oppression against the Palestinians by the Jewish state, different standard of treatment by the police, different ownership rights over land



Quite a lot of text to obfuscate how you got the basic historical timeline wrong when talking about history. And using broad brush strokes to obscure your assumption of incorrect history by justifying your incorrect use of historical terms.

"This is such a red herring, let’s focus on the key things that actually matter:"

Ie. Let's not look at how I got things wrong. Let's talk about things I'd rather talk about instead.
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Offline Jebediah

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1886 on: June 12, 2021, 06:56:37 pm »

Killing Palestinians and harvesting their organs for Israeli families without their parents permisssion


https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definitions-charters/working-definition-antisemitism

Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
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Offline Asam

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1887 on: June 12, 2021, 06:57:43 pm »
That's the worst justification I've ever seen.

More Palestinians are killed in a few weeks / month than by Hamas (ever)
You are more concerned about the damage the ant is doing to the elephant

There is simply no comparison between the death / injury toll of the Palestinians vs the Israelis yet where is your focus? Why is only your focus on the Deaths incurred on the Israeli side?




Offline Asam

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1888 on: June 12, 2021, 06:59:51 pm »
https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definitions-charters/working-definition-antisemitism

Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.

Look, this was reported and confirmed by the Israeli media, it happened in the 90s and early 00s

So get your facts right.

Historical anti Semitism is abhorrent and has no factual basis but that doesn’t mean the above didn’t happen when it was actually admitted to in public

Offline Sangria

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1889 on: June 12, 2021, 07:01:25 pm »
More Palestinians are killed in a few weeks / month than by Hamas (ever)
You are more concerned about the damage the ant is doing to the elephant

There is simply no comparison between the death / injury toll of the Palestinians vs the Israelis yet where is your focus? Why is only your focus on the Deaths incurred on the Israeli side?

Do you think that Muslims in Britain should be called names without these callers being done for hate speech? I'd assume so, since Muslims in Britain have killed more people for religious-related justifications than vice versa. When PM Johnson calls Muslim women "letterboxes" and so on, it's just rhetoric. He didn't kill anyone, therefore by your argument he should be excused for racial prejudice against Muslims.
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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1890 on: June 12, 2021, 07:01:35 pm »
Hamas is not hell bent on killing Jews, if they were then why are there so few Jewish people killed by Hamas over the years? It’s rhetoric, Palestinians want their human rights and self determination & let’s not forget it was European Christians that are responsible for what happened to the Jews

The two state solution is a non starter, the map of Israel looks like a Swiss cheese, you cannot create two states, where are the borders of the Israeli state? The only logical answer is a single state with equal human rights, otherwise the can will continue to be kicked down the road
It is literally in their charter. Jews will not (and should not be expected to) form a state as a result.  Why should any Jew care about that the Holocaust was by white European Christians? They’ve been persecuted, vilified and exterminated from countries that are European and Muslim, history has told them this. And yet you genuinely expect them to put their lives hands who LITERALLY say they want to kill them all over again.

I get why a two state solution might be difficult fir the reasons you mentioned.

But I asked you for a realistic solution. Essentially your solution is to eradicate Israel, and to eradicate the global safe haven for Jews.

For the reasons stated, this is in no way a realistic solution for even the most reasonable of Israelis.

Try again.  But this time, remember that it had to be realistic for both sides, not just the side you support.

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Offline Asam

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1891 on: June 12, 2021, 07:02:57 pm »
Quite a lot of text to obfuscate how you got the basic historical timeline wrong when talking about history. And using broad brush strokes to obscure your assumption of incorrect history by justifying your incorrect use of historical terms.

"This is such a red herring, let’s focus on the key things that actually matter:"

Ie. Let's not look at how I got things wrong. Let's talk about things I'd rather talk about instead.

We’re the Jews came from Europe immigrants or colonial settlers? Who is avoiding whose questions? If they are immigrants then which country did the apply to come in? Who approved their ability to live in that country?

It’s like comparing the invasion of the Americas with settler colonial Europeans

Did the native Americans have a government? No
The Europeans were “immigrants”
There was nothing here before they came
Let’s just gloss over the genocide and terror they inflicted

Absolute moral cowardice

Offline Sangria

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1892 on: June 12, 2021, 07:03:13 pm »
Look, this was reported and confirmed by the Israeli media, it happened in the 90s and early 00s

So get your facts right.

Historical anti Semitism is abhorrent and has no factual basis but that doesn’t mean the above didn’t happen when it was actually admitted to in public

Says someone who talks about the Palestinian government in the period when there was an influx of Jewish immigrants.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1893 on: June 12, 2021, 07:11:06 pm »
We’re the Jews came from Europe immigrants or colonial settlers? Who is avoiding whose questions? If they are immigrants then which country did the apply to come in? Who approved their ability to live in that country?

It’s like comparing the invasion of the Americas with settler colonial Europeans

Did the native Americans have a government? No
The Europeans were “immigrants”
There was nothing here before they came
Let’s just gloss over the genocide and terror they inflicted

Absolute moral cowardice

I don't know what the entrance policies were back then. IIRC the timeline was modern Zionism leading to an increase of Jewish immigrants during the Ottoman period. The rate of Jewish immigration into the area increased greatly during the British mandate post-Balfour declaration, and there were terrorist acts by resident Arabs against the Jewish newcomers.

Now I never ask questions that I don't intend to answer myself, so assuming you're the same, would you care to answer your above questions? Since you ask about who approved their immigration, presumably you'll have a good idea of entrance policies of the Ottoman Empire and British Mandate in Palestine that you can explain to a know-nothing like me.

Will you answer your questions, or are you going throw insults at me again? "Absolute moral cowardice".
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Offline Asam

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1894 on: June 12, 2021, 07:12:22 pm »
It is literally in their charter. Jews will not (and should not be expected to) form a state as a result.  Why should any Jew care about that the Holocaust was by white European Christians? They’ve been persecuted, vilified and exterminated from countries that are European and Muslim, history has told them this. And yet you genuinely expect them to put their lives hands who LITERALLY say they want to kill them all over again.

I get why a two state solution might be difficult fir the reasons you mentioned.

But I asked you for a realistic solution. Essentially your solution is to eradicate Israel, and to eradicate the global safe haven for Jews.

For the reasons stated, this is in no way a realistic solution for even the most reasonable of Israelis.

Try again.  But this time, remember that it had to be realistic for both sides, not just the side you support.

Why don’t you try again and give us an Option which reflects a reality you personally would be willing to live with if you were a Palestinian

Offline Jebediah

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1895 on: June 12, 2021, 07:18:49 pm »
Look, this was reported and confirmed by the Israeli media, it happened in the 90s and early 00s

So get your facts right.

Historical anti Semitism is abhorrent and has no factual basis but that doesn’t mean the above didn’t happen when it was actually admitted to in public

You are mistaken. An Israeli doctor admitted harvesting corneas from dead patients, including Jews and Arabs. The suggestion that Palestinians were purposely killed in order to harvest their organs for Jewish use (as published in a Swedish newspaper) is a clearly antisemitic and abhorrant lie.
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Offline classycarra

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1896 on: June 12, 2021, 07:36:13 pm »
Hamas is not hell bent on killing Jews, if they were then why are there so few Jewish people killed by Hamas over the years?

ANother failure to check your facts I'm afraid.

Maybe you could start here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant - it's Hamas's charter from 1988 (when the organisation was -18 years old, according to your claims).

Ironically enough the second half of your sentence "why are there so few Jewish people killed by Hamas over the years?" is a hypothetical question that explains why israeli governments that invest heavily in defences keep getting voted in.

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1897 on: June 12, 2021, 07:38:17 pm »
Why don’t you try again and give us an Option which reflects a reality you personally would be willing to live with if you were a Palestinian
I’m going to push the question back again, because you didn’t answer it.

What’s a realistic solution for peace that both sides can sign up to?

I’m trying to see something that both sides can sign up to, not one.
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Offline Asam

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1898 on: June 12, 2021, 07:40:24 pm »
You are mistaken. An Israeli doctor admitted harvesting corneas from dead patients, including Jews and Arabs. The suggestion that Palestinians were purposely killed in order to harvest their organs for Jewish use (as published in a Swedish newspaper) is a clearly antisemitic and abhorrant lie.

What I recall was not from a Swedish paper, it was from Israeli court documents, and still even the above case was absolutely disgusting behaviour which was done without the consent of the families

Please don’t inject anti semitism accusations into everything you dispute, it demeans the seriousness of the term

Offline classycarra

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1899 on: June 12, 2021, 07:51:48 pm »
What I recall was not from a Swedish paper, it was from Israeli court documents, and still even the above case was absolutely disgusting behaviour which was done without the consent of the families

Please don’t inject anti semitism accusations into everything you dispute, it demeans the seriousness of the term

No it doesn't demean the seriousness. Certainly not as much as you leaving up an antisemitic unfounded claim (unless you can produce a reference, if there are court documents they'll be publicly available and easy to access), not to mention not showing any contrition for your mistaken assertion

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1900 on: June 12, 2021, 07:55:37 pm »
No it doesn't demean the seriousness. Certainly not as much as you leaving up an antisemitic unfounded claim (unless you can produce a reference, if there are court documents they'll be publicly available and easy to access), not to mention not showing any contrition for your mistaken assertion
Yes, where are these court documents?

Should be fairly easy to back the claim up.
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“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline Jebediah

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1901 on: June 12, 2021, 08:07:55 pm »
He is correct about the skin and cornea harvesting. It was admitted in an interview with a doctor at the medical facility. Not sure about court documents, and presumably he doesn't read Hebrew even if they do.exist. Quite similar to the alder hey scandal if memory serves. A horrible incident, but far from unique.

Context is everything of course, and he was clearly insinuating something far more sinister. I recall a labour councilor being suspended for the same a few years ago (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-lancashire-57208371)
« Last Edit: June 12, 2021, 08:09:48 pm by Jebediah »
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Offline Asam

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1902 on: June 12, 2021, 08:12:37 pm »
I’m going to push the question back again, because you didn’t answer it.

What’s a realistic solution for peace that both sides can sign up to?

I’m trying to see something that both sides can sign up to, not one.

I’m sorry but since you didn’t answer I doubt your genuineness

You have an answer but it’s not the one that you want to hear




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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1903 on: June 12, 2021, 08:20:34 pm »
I’m sorry but since you didn’t answer I doubt your genuineness

You have an answer but it’s not the one that you want to hear




Ok, I was asking you a question….
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1904 on: June 12, 2021, 08:23:08 pm »
He is correct about the skin and cornea harvesting. It was admitted in an interview with a doctor at the medical facility. Not sure about court documents, and presumably he doesn't read Hebrew even if they do.exist. Quite similar to the alder hey scandal if memory serves. A horrible incident, but far from unique.

Context is everything of course, and he was clearly insinuating something far more sinister. I recall a labour councilor being suspended for the same a few years ago (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-lancashire-57208371)

It’s pretty shocking that organs were harvested without the consent of the families, I don’t connect this act with Jewishness at all, the Israeli state is not Jewishness, what’s done by people acting on behalf of the state or in this case it appears a high unscrupulous individual has no reflection on the religion, similarly the way that the state controls the calories of people living in Gaza is not a reflection on the religion it’s just how the apartheid racist state shows it’s inhumanity on a daily basis




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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1905 on: June 12, 2021, 08:30:30 pm »
It’s pretty shocking that organs were harvested without the consent of the families, I don’t connect this act with Jewishness at all, the Israeli state is not Jewishness, what’s done by people acting on behalf of the state or in this case it appears a high unscrupulous individual has no reflection on the religion, similarly the way that the state controls the calories of people living in Gaza is not a reflection on the religion it’s just how the apartheid racist state shows it’s inhumanity on a daily basis

Something tells me that if someone were to make a generalisation about Palestinians based on the actions of one person - as you have, with Israelis and this bad doctor - that you might take it a bit more seriously than you are.

Offline Jebediah

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1906 on: June 12, 2021, 08:59:23 pm »
It’s pretty shocking that organs were harvested without the consent of the families, I don’t connect this act with Jewishness at all, the Israeli state is not Jewishness, what’s done by people acting on behalf of the state or in this case it appears a high unscrupulous individual has no reflection on the religion, similarly the way that the state controls the calories of people living in Gaza is not a reflection on the religion it’s just how the apartheid racist state shows it’s inhumanity on a daily basis





My recollection is that this was one study - never enacted as policy - that aimed to ensure that the flow of aid into Gaza was sufficient to avoid malnutrition in the population. If memory serves, the study showed the number of calories needed was about 2300. Of course, this was jumped upon by the anti-Israel brigade who revelled in the (false) equivalence with the Nazis, who limted Jewish calorie intake in the Warsaw Ghetto to just 180 calories.

Again, we could have a serious discussion about Israeli policy in Gaza, whether it amounts to collective punishment, and whether it is against international law. You're not interested in that though. You're only interested in hurling unproven, borderline-at-best antisemitic attacks.
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1907 on: June 12, 2021, 09:02:15 pm »
My recollection is that this was one study - never enacted as policy - that aimed to ensure that the flow of aid into Gaza was sufficient to avoid malnutrition in the population. If memory serves, the study showed the number of calories needed was about 2300. Of course, this was jumped upon by the anti-Israel brigade who revelled in the (false) equivalence with the Nazis, who limted Jewish calorie intake in the Warsaw Ghetto to just 180 calories.

Again, we could have a serious discussion about Israeli policy in Gaza, whether it amounts to collective punishment, and whether it is against international law. You're not interested in that though. You're only interested in hurling unproven, borderline-at-best antisemitic attacks.
That there is any need to ensure people in Gaza have sufficient calories is a damming increment on the governments involved.
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Offline Jebediah

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1908 on: June 12, 2021, 09:11:03 pm »
That there is any need to ensure people in Gaza have sufficient calories is a damming increment on the governments involved.

Agreed. Gaza needs to be free (from Hamas and from Israel). trust me, there isn't a single Israeli who wants to have anything to do with the place. It's just how to get there that is the problem.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2021, 09:14:57 pm by Jebediah »
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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1909 on: June 13, 2021, 09:09:06 am »
Yes, where are these court documents?

Should be fairly easy to back the claim up.

This thread is agony to read. Extreme claims, massive assertions, sweeping generalisations - and no evidence to back anything up. As for any historical sense of what has happened in Palestine and Israel, whether under Ottoman rule, the British mandate, or afterwards, it's all just a black hole. 
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1910 on: June 13, 2021, 06:20:05 pm »
My recollection is that this was one study - never enacted as policy - that aimed to ensure that the flow of aid into Gaza was sufficient to avoid malnutrition in the population. If memory serves, the study showed the number of calories needed was about 2300. Of course, this was jumped upon by the anti-Israel brigade who revelled in the (false) equivalence with the Nazis, who limted Jewish calorie intake in the Warsaw Ghetto to just 180 calories.

Again, we could have a serious discussion about Israeli policy in Gaza, whether it amounts to collective punishment, and whether it is against international law. You're not interested in that though. You're only interested in hurling unproven, borderline-at-best antisemitic attacks.

Sorry, I can't let this go.

This caloric report was never intended to ensure anything about the "flow of aid" into Gaza. This report was in the context of the Israeli planning of the blockade of Gaza in 2007. The blockade covered everything (i.e. plastic toys for kids), but most cruelly it covered food.

Some of food items that the Israeli state allowed imported were kidney beans, tinned meat and coriander. But some items that were not allowed to be imported included things like jam, chocolate, cinnamon and fruit juice.

So human rights groups began asking Israel to produce a list of what were the banned items. Israel did not want to. Then the groups began asking what was the reasoning behind the list of banned items. Again they were fobbed off. They tried to obtain copies of the document through their version of FOIP, and they were denied.

So the Israeli human rights groups, Gisha took the Israeli government to court to obtain the documents that it relied upon.

At the beginning of the court case, the Israeli government told the court that the overall rationale: "The limitation on the transfer of goods is a central pillar in the means at the disposal of the State of Israel in the armed conflict between it and Hamas."

And the Israeli authorities confirmed the existence of 4 documents - how they process requests for imports into Gaza, how they monitor the shortages within Gaza, their approved list of what is allowed in, and document entitled "Food Consumption in the Gaza Strip - Red Lines," which sets out the minimum calorie intake needed by Gaza's million and a half inhabitants, according to their age and sex.

As Jebediah says, the Israeli government told the court that it only used this presentation for "internal planning work" but that the document "never served as a basis for the policy of the authority."

This is the same bullshit that the state of Israel does when it is called out on its actions (i.e. bombing AP building - "Hamas was there" - show us the evidence that Hamas was using the building  - Israel shows the "evidence" only to its closest ally, not to AP or rest of the world - Israeli spokespeople continue to appear on American news shows repeating the lie that there was evidence).

Gisha persisted with the case, and 3.5 years later they got the copy of the "Food Consumption in the Gaza Strip - Red Lines." It was a presentation by the Ministry of Health to the IDF to "identify the point of intervention for prevention of malnutrition in the Gaza Strip."

The quotes above come from this BBC article by Tim Franks: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8654337.stm

Gisha's report on the presentation here: https://gisha.org/en/red-lines-presentation-new-details-about-the-old-policy-while-the-current-policy-remains-shrouded-in-secrecy/

Click the link because you can see the presentation! But if you do not want to, the the text of the article is:

Quote
October 17, 2012. A three-and-a-half-year long legal battle waged by Gisha has led the Israeli Ministry of Defense to reveal the document entitled “Food Consumption in the Gaza Strip – Red Lines”. The document includes information about the policy of restricting the entrance of food to the Gaza Strip, which was in effect between 2007 and 2010. Two versions of this document, in the format of PowerPoint presentations, were provided to Gisha over the Sukkot holiday, after the Israeli Supreme Court rejected the state’s appeal against disclosing the document on September 5, 2012. a position paper provides a general background for the presentation, an analysis of its content and a description of the legal proceedings that resulted in its publication. We also wish to raise a few important points that we think emerge from the presentation.

The sharp decrease in the incoming quantities of food products caused supply to be unpredictable and contributed to a significant rise in food prices in Gaza. Nonetheless, Israel’s policy during the period in question did not result in widespread hunger or ongoing shortages of basic food products in the Gaza Strip. According to World Food Programme reports from those years, Gaza merchants reported isolated shortages and difficulties maintaining supplies of basic products such as flour, sugar, dairy products and oil. In addition, the severe economic crisis caused by the closure, particularly by restrictions on the entrance of raw materials and the marketing of goods outside the Strip which led to a rise in the unemployment rate, resulted in increased dependence on aid. Between the second quarter of 2007 and the second quarter of 2008, the rate of unemployment soared by 72% (from 26.4% to 45.4%). A report by the United Nations’ Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) found that the number of Gaza residents receiving humanitarian aid rose from 63% of the population in 2006 to 80% in 2007. The main repercussions of the closure at the time were, as they largely continue to be today, increased poverty, increased dependence on aid and denial of opportunities for economic development, higher education and access to dignified work.

The red lines presentation, prepared in January 2008, summarizes work conducted by the security establishment in cooperation with the Israeli Ministry of Health which analyzed ordinary food consumption by Gaza Strip residents. Throughout the legal battle for publication of the presentation, and in the cover letter sent to Gisha along with the presentations, the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories (COGAT) claimed that: “the aforementioned presentations are drafts and have never been used as a basis for implementing civilian policy toward the Gaza Strip”. The statement is perplexing considering the fact that the quotas that were set for bringing in goods at the time precisely match some of the quantities evidently calculated over the course of the work done by security and health ministry officials (see details in the position paper).

A look at the data on goods that entered Gaza from Israel immediately after Hamas seized control of the Strip and Israel’s tightening of the closure reveals that the quantities that were cleared for entry did not reflect the “red lines” set in the presentation (see table), and were in fact smaller. The calculations made in the presentation led to the conclusion that the “daily humanitarian portion” Gaza’s residents needed would require bringing in 106 trucks from Israel five days per week. In the first year following Hamas’ takeover of the Strip and the tightening of the closure (July 2007 to June 2008), an average of 90 trucks entered each scheduled working day.

In his testimony before the Turkel Commission, COGAT, Major General Eitan Dangot, explained that the quantity of goods brought into the Gaza Strip was restricted also as a result of the firing of rockets at Israel, particularly at the crossings. Without disputing that, we would like to remind that previous documents that were published as a result of Gisha’s work demonstrate that the official policy included restrictions on food that had nothing to do with any direct and immediate security need. One of Gisha’s main arguments at the time was that because of periodic closures resulting from escalations in violence, Israel should have increased access for supply of goods on the days the crossings operated normally. This argument was rejected by the Israeli Supreme Court.

The presentation describes a monitoring mechanism for a policy that, in effect, deliberately reduced the standard of living in Gaza. Statements made by politicians and top security officials at the time indicate that the policy was meant to put pressure on Hamas. It had two fundamental tenets:  the legal position that after the disengagement and Hamas’s takeover of the Strip, Israel had only minimal humanitarian obligations toward Gaza’s residents, and a political-security rationale that indiscriminate pressure on the entire population is a legitimate and effective measure to be implemented in the context of the armed conflict with Hamas.

First and foremost, we note that preventing the transfer of basic items to a civilian population as a means of exerting pressure on political or military actors violates international humanitarian law. Israel, which exercises significant control over the civilian population’s access to food, thus bears obligations toward that population. The fact that Egypt did not open a regular and reliable channel for supply of food to Gaza does not detract from Israel’s obligations (for a complete analysis of Gisha’s position about the legal status of Gaza, see Scale of Control).

These days, it is difficult to find a politician or security expert in Israel who would say that the closure policy of 2007-2010 benefitted Israel politically or in terms of security. For more than two years now, Israel has not imposed any restrictions on the entrance of food to the Gaza Strip. Yet, the two fundamental tenets of the policy, the legal position and the political-security rationale, remain the basis for the current policy, which the security establishment calls “the separation policy”. As part of this policy, sweeping and indiscriminate restrictions are placed on the movement of goods and people between Gaza and the West Bank. Once again, some of the restrictions are imposed devoid of a concrete security necessity. The restrictions cause severe damage to the economy and are accompanied by declarations that one of the goals of the policy is to put pressure on the Hamas regime and bolster the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank.

While the security establishment has been forced to disclose documents that bring an old policy up for critical discussion, the current policy remains shrouded in secrecy. It is unclear which political or military actors formulated the “separation policy”, what its objectives are and how it is monitored. Misguided policies are destined to fail and to be exposed. The question is whether this time, policy-makers will choose to come out and explain to the public whom they purport to serve how the restrictions on movement currently imposed on Gaza’s residents are determined and how they conform to the legal and moral norms to which Israel considers itself bound.

Gisha’s position is that Israel must refrain from imposing restrictions on movement which are not necessary for maintaining security and which disproportionately harm the ability of the civilian population to lead normal lives and engage in economic development.

If any of you are interested in how Palestinian life changed after 1948, you could not go wrong in reading a cookbook on Palestinian cooking. How their persecution and displacement by the Israeli state lead to a complete change in their diet and health, as they went from traditional food sources to UN relief packages, and how their efforts to rebuild their agricultural sector have been setback by the blockade. Among the big issues now are the restriction of their fishing rights; of course, due to security reasons by Israel. Gisha has quite a few articles on the fishing issue.



"And Israeli aggression will continue unabated. BDS. Armed struggle. Peace talks. Protests. Tweets. Social media. Poetry. All are terror in Israel’s books.” Refaat Alareer
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Offline Libertine

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1911 on: June 13, 2021, 07:20:20 pm »
Netanyahu is finally ousted.

The days events described in this thread: https://twitter.com/AnshelPfeffer/status/1404035484335157249

Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1912 on: June 13, 2021, 07:26:21 pm »
Agreed. Gaza needs to be free (from Hamas and from Israel). trust me, there isn't a single Israeli who wants to have anything to do with the place. It's just how to get there that is the problem.


If only that were true.


Trust me.
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1913 on: June 13, 2021, 07:27:50 pm »
Netanyahu is finally ousted.

The days events described in this thread: https://twitter.com/AnshelPfeffer/status/1404035484335157249
Some good news at least
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Offline The North Bank

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1914 on: June 13, 2021, 07:41:44 pm »
Netanyahu is finally ousted.

The days events described in this thread: https://twitter.com/AnshelPfeffer/status/1404035484335157249

To be replaced by far right hard liner naftali bennet who is nicknamed the champion of settlers. Believes israel should occupy as much Palestinian land as possible and doesnt believe in a Palestinian state.

Yet everyone wants to discuss hamas charter....

Offline classycarra

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1915 on: June 13, 2021, 08:15:54 pm »
Yet everyone wants to discuss hamas charter....

Do they? I mentioned it as a reference when Asam made a factually incorrect claim

Do we really need to have this faux outrage and false dichotomy? Just because one thing is the current topic of conversation, or what someone referred to in a post, doesn't mean it's impossible that people also think and care about other things simultaneously.

The alternative is that every single one of us makes posts in here with about 50 asterisks at the bottom full of caveats saying '*of course, that doesn't mean that someone else hasn't done something bad too'. And, well, fuck that

Offline 24/7

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1916 on: June 13, 2021, 08:17:19 pm »
The alternative is that every single one of us makes posts in here with about 50 asterisks at the bottom full of caveats saying '*of course, that doesn't mean that someone else hasn't done something bad too'. And, well, fuck that
Indeed - shouldn't be necessary - and it's already an asterisked thread :thumbup

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1917 on: June 13, 2021, 08:18:31 pm »
Do they? I mentioned it as a reference when Asam made a factually incorrect claim

Do we really need to have this faux outrage and false dichotomy? Just because one thing is the current topic of conversation, or what someone referred to in a post, doesn't mean it's impossible that people also think and care about other things simultaneously.

The alternative is that every single one of us makes posts in here with about 50 asterisks at the bottom full of caveats saying '*of course, that doesn't mean that someone else hasn't done something bad too'. And, well, fuck that

to be honest, I think it comes up in conversation here quite a lot, though sometimes tangentially.

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1918 on: June 13, 2021, 08:22:45 pm »
Great news.

Hopefully he'll be in Prison this time next year.
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)
« Reply #1919 on: June 13, 2021, 08:26:39 pm »
Great news.

Hopefully he'll be in Prison this time next year.
I wouldn’t bet on it… these people never do time for their crimes.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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