Topic: Supporter Representation & 50+1 Voting Rights

[redmark]

The only small point I might add to this fine post, is that "a single club does not resolve broader issues throughout football" is true but if we did have one single club with fan owned club, run well by leaders of the ethos of Shankly, we might find much firmer ground from which to challenge the broader issues of football.   

One of things that boils my piss is that we have been complicit in some of this bad behavior in the game (not the worst by any means) in an effort, we tell ourselves, to compete with the best in the world.   The anti-idealists out there will tell me I am full of shit and rainbows, but there is a right way to do things --- and it would be nice if our club could embody more of the love of the game versus the love of money.   

Absolutely agreed. I'd see fan representation/accountability and fan ownership as complementary; separate, with benefits and positives in isolation, but combining to be greater than the sum of their parts - the ideal of how the people's game should be run; by the people and accountable to the people.

[oojason]

You have MPs pushing for it now. It's now or never.

And we can help push them on further too...

https://spiritofshankly.com/
https://thefsa.org.uk/join/
https://reclaimourgame.com/
https://www.ourbeautifulgame.co.uk/proposal

[GBF]

Nice idea but it won't work in England.  Germans have different mentality in their day-to-day that make this approach sustainable in Germany.

However, the issue is still here even if ESL is on pause - FIFA, UEFA, EPL are still cartels in operation.

[lfc79]

By my count 8 premier league clubs have foreign owners from countries that have bilateral investment treaties with the UK meaning it would be far more complicated for the UK government to legislate that 51% of voting rights, so control of these private companies be taken away from the owners without ending up in series of international arbitrations. Better regulation is probably the best we can hope for with increased level of fan involvement but given that the body in charge of football in the UK the FA is just another cesspit of greed, just like UEFA is at the European level I'm not sure I hold out hope for any real change.

[RainbowFlick]

If you go the game, you get a share, or at the very least the opportunity to purchase a share. I'd guess at say >5 games a season then you're in with a shout. If you're not a match goer, then your not entitled to a share, in my eyes.

I agree with this, although the economics seem fuzzy. Splitting out the voting rights without needing to necessarily somehow raise billions from maybe 200k matchgoing fans (assuming we're including one-offs etc) seems tricky.

So essentially FSG have A shares but agree to let the B shares (worth less and no dividends etc) have a veto right and power on the board from a representative. The B shareholders vote a fan representative and we have a poll across B shareholders on any major issues that require board approval, and the board representative just keeps an eye on day-to-day runnings guided by some pre-agreed fan-oriented principles.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Nice idea but it won't work in England.  Germans have different mentality in their day-to-day that make this approach sustainable in Germany.

However, the issue is still here even if ESL is on pause - FIFA, UEFA, EPL are still cartels in operation.

Thanks for buzzing in and sharing.  Usually, this is the kind of thing one keeps to himself or herself.

I think it will work.  And this idea is not in competition with challenging the abuses of FIFA, UEFA or PL.....

[John C]

And after talking with John C this morning about the subject, he suggested that I be careful not to post too many specifics as the mood rises and falls very quickly -- and it would be better to contact some people who have done this work before.   

Trend, just to be clear here I never used a single word of what you have posted there. My main point was how are you going to fund the Anfield Road end - I've seen nothing about that yet.
I never mentioned don't go in to specifics, I never mentioned moods, I said ....
"you'll get a huge amount of cheerleading and pats on the back from emotional people who will a) never stump up their own  cash, b) can't stump up the cash and c) will disappear from the campaign in a matter of days"

And I suggested you look at the ShareLiverpool outcome.

I did say good luck and don't be surprised if you get ridiculed.

[JackBauer]

So essentially FSG have A shares but agree to let the B shares (worth less and no dividends etc) have a veto right and power on the board from a representative.

Um, why would they agree to something that is transparently contrary to their own interests?

[redmark]

Um, why would they agree to something that is transparently contrary to their own interests?

You don't ask them to 'agree'.

[JackBauer]

Oh, right, so you expropriate their property. A Mugabe-style redistribution of assets, excellent.

1. Are they compensated for this?
2. If yes, at what valuation?
3. Do you do this only to this club? Just to the current PL? The whole pyramid?

[Dave McCoy]

This is great but I fail to see how anything would structurally change.  Bayern and the rest of the German teams seem pretty content with things as is which is just an ever widening inequality.  Bayern's mooted solution is wage controls, not sharing more, so they would in effect never be challenged.  Again would be happy to contribute if it was an actual thing but would like to hear how anything would actually change.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Trend, just to be clear here I never used a single word of what you have posted there. My main point was how are you going to fund the Anfield Road end - I've seen nothing about that yet.
I never mentioned don't go in to specifics, I never mentioned moods, I said ....
"you'll get a huge amount of cheerleading and pats on the back from emotional people who will a) never stump up their own  cash, b) can't stump up the cash and c) will disappear from the campaign in a matter of days"

And I suggested you look at the ShareLiverpool outcome.

I did say good luck and don't be surprised if you get ridiculed.

Should have made it clearer John and used this quote from you, rather than a blind reference. Apologies!

Here is what I intended to say about my interaction with you about specifics - which was the main criticism of the poster.

"Just to add to my earlier reply mate, as I've just read properly your 4m x £1k proposal, have a think before you put your name to the thread."


And yes, ridicule happens

[diggerling!]

Oh, right, so you expropriate their property. A Mugabe-style redistribution of assets, excellent.

1. Are they compensated for this?
2. If yes, at what valuation?
3. Do you do this only to this club? Just to the current PL? The whole pyramid?

No expropriation of assets, including property, is required at this initial stage. They are merely required to forgo their ability to make decisions that affect their fans and the wider game without the agreement of said fans. It's a smalll price to pay, as those same fans play a significant (unpaid) role in promoting their assets everytime they turn up to watch the team.

1. No
2. See above
3. The whole pyramid.

[redmark]

Oh, right, so you expropriate their property. A Mugabe-style redistribution of assets, excellent.

1. Are they compensated for this?
2. If yes, at what valuation?
3. Do you do this only to this club? Just to the current PL? The whole pyramid?

These points are discussed already - the most significant point (personally) isn't fan ownership financially, but a casting vote on defined key issues affecting the club - commercial, financial, competition, governance, etc. I'd be happy to build into that a structure for how/how much the owner can profit from the club - it's unrealistic to expect them never to take a dividend.

In short; 1/2 - yes, if necessary, but the point isn't to dilute the financial value of their holding.

3 is a good point; as already stated, more than just this club. It needs to be the PL (at least), to feed up to making meaningful changes at a competition/association level - on FFP, wages, sustainability, 'fit and proper' rules, etc. That probably needs to extend into the EFL, to some degree - or at least be signed upto by clubs as they seek to gain promotion, much like stadium standards are on promotion.

[lfc79]

I think the owners would argue that removing control of the private companies they own would be an expropriation of their property, the ability to sell your property to whoever you chose is a pretty fundamental right. It not that fan ownership or control is a bad idea,  but just not something you can force onto people.

[redbyrdz]

Nice idea but it won't work in England.  Germans have different mentality in their day-to-day that make this approach sustainable in Germany.

There are plenty of organisations in the UK that have a similar membership model as the German clubs. If you bank with Nationwide, or Co-op, or are a member of the National Trust - every year, you get an AGM invite and a chance to have a say of where those organisations are going. That is pretty much the same level of control as members of the German clubs have, and maybe more appropriate precedents inside the UK legislation.

[redmark]

I think the owners would argue that removing control of the private companies they own would be an expropriation of their property, the ability to sell your property to whoever you chose is a pretty fundamental right. It not that fan ownership or control is a bad idea,  but just not something you can force onto people.

It can be legislated for; if they don't agree to the terms, they can have a set period of time to sell to someone who does.

This is a very key point: a football club is not simply business 'property' in the way that a supermarket or a warehouse is.

[thaddeus]

It can be legislated for; if they don't agree to the terms, they can have a set period of time to sell to someone who does.

This is a very key point: a football club is not simply business 'property' in the way that a supermarket or a warehouse is.

By Johnson and his government of cranks?  The first call/text he had from one of the impacted owners and he'd call the whole thing off.

[lfc79]

It can be legislated for; if they don't agree to the terms, they can have a set period of time to sell to someone who does.

This is a very key point: a football club is not simply business 'property' in the way that a supermarket or a warehouse is.

I think the problem with that is this kind of change may have a significant impact on the value of the company, there is talk of Liverpool being worth £1.5b but would they find a buyer willing to pay that much if the fans groups had 51% of the voting rights.

And in that case clubs owned by a number of foreign nationals i.e Russia, Thailand, China could take the UK government to arbitration to try and recover those losses.

[redmark]

I think the problem with that is this kind of change may have a significant impact on the value of the company, there is talk of Liverpool being worth £1.5b but would they find a buyer willing to pay that much if the fans groups had 51% of the voting rights.

And in that case clubs owned by a number of foreign nationals i.e Russia, Thailand, China could take the UK government to arbitration to try and recover those losses.

Oh no. We can't save football if it costs a billionaire a few quid.

[redmark]

By Johnson and his government of cranks?  The first call/text he had from one of the impacted owners and he'd call the whole thing off.

Johnson doesn't give a shit on this subject either way. He doesn't care about clubs or fans; but the owners are pretty small fry too, by the standards of the corporations the Tories are generally in bed with. He does care about power; and he has a lot of MPs in seats with slender majorities and football clubs. It would be an incredibly cheap win for them, politically.

It also has cross-party support, and some degree of greater accountability (not full 50+1 decision making) could be successful as a private member's bill.

[lfc79]

The problem would be it might cost the UK taxpayer several billion pounds which I don't think any government would be keen on.

[redmark]

The problem would be it might cost the UK taxpayer several billion pounds which I don't think any government would be keen on.

Even if there were losses (proven) to owners, and those were to be compensated, it needn't be a bill for the taxpayer. There are plenty of other ways of financing a few tens/hundreds million here or there for different clubs, if and when those are sold individually which wouldn't all be on the same day.

[Billy Elliot]

Absolutely agreed. I'd see fan representation/accountability and fan ownership as complementary; separate, with benefits and positives in isolation, but combining to be greater than the sum of their parts - the ideal of how the people's game should be run; by the people and accountable to the people.

Fan representation/accountability is something that needs buy in from owners. FSG said SOS could put forward a ticket pricing model. Then completely ignored it, and wasted their time, trying to charge us 77 quid.

If / when FSG go, how would we make sure fan representation was more than the supporters committee / Tony Barrett which they just brushed aside?

I think fan ownership supported by government legislation is the only way forward.

[CHOPPER]

This is a very key point: a football club is not simply business 'property' in the way that a supermarket or a warehouse is.

For the last god knows how many years, we have directly or indirectly mocked ourselves and others at being a brand, a commodity, a business, an ongoing concern. It's been here for years, its nothing new and sadly, nothing is going to change any time soon.

Tell me, how long do you think you've had the title - 'Customer No' on your season ticket?

I used to be a fan.

[Oskar]

Nice idea but it won't work in England.  Germans have different mentality in their day-to-day that make this approach sustainable in Germany.

However, the issue is still here even if ESL is on pause - FIFA, UEFA, EPL are still cartels in operation.

Agreed, it wouldn’t work in football over here.

The only way to instigate any sort of real change now is to reform within the governing bodies, and we’ve been saying that for years without anything meaningful happening.

[Dave McCoy]

Fan representation/accountability is something that needs buy in from owners. FSG said SOS could put forward a ticket pricing model. Then completely ignored it, and wasted their time, trying to charge us 77 quid.

If / when FSG go, how would we make sure fan representation was more than the supporters committee / Tony Barrett which they just brushed aside?

I think fan ownership supported by government legislation is the only way forward.

Without it being European wide you're basically just advocating for a flight of capital out of the league.  There's also then the small issue of the rest of the football league pyramid being insolvent as is.

[diggerling!]

For the last god knows how many years, we have directly or indirectly mocked ourselves and others at being a brand, a commodity, a business, an ongoing concern. It's been here for years, its nothing new and sadly, nothing is going to change any time soon.

Tell me, how long do you think you've had the title - 'Customer No' on your season ticket?

I used to be a fan.

The irony is that 'the fans' are a massive part of the value of the company, and we actually pay the owners for the privilege! When people think of LFC they think of the Kop, banners and YNWA being sung. That's us. Add the players and the manager and that's the club. We're not some abstract entity that's remote from what these fuckers 'own', we are what they own. Yet we get no say in the running of things.

The other big difference between football clubs and other businesses is that clubs require healthy competitors to operate, whereas the ultimate aim for most businesses is to drive their competitors away. Coke don't need Pepsi. Audi don't need BMW. That doesn't really work with football clubs - a sustainable ecosystem is necessary for them to survive long term and profiteering owners are only in it for the short term.

Fan ownership (fan stewardship might be a better term because it's not really about ownership as most people would understand it) would go a long way to helping sort some of the problems but there would still be major issues with wealth disparity. Perhaps non-profit clubs should be the long term aim.

[diggerling!]

Agreed, it wouldn’t work in football over here.

The only way to instigate any sort of real change now is to reform within the governing bodies, and we’ve been saying that for years without anything meaningful happening.

The governing bodies are only as useful as the legislative system they operate within. Add in their incompetence and they're utterly feeble.

[Eeyore]

Just setup new competitions that are only open to clubs that have fan representation on the board.

[diggerling!]

Just setup new competitions that are only open to clubs that have fan representation on the board.

It's the Dog and Duck vs The Queens Head and it's liiive!

[JackBauer]

The other point that no one seems to be addressing with the idea of "fan ownership" is that the fans are a very large and disparate group of people who have different backgrounds, different perspectives and different opinions on things. How do you properly represent the entire fanbase?

[diggerling!]

Without it being European wide you're basically just advocating for a flight of capital out of the league.  There's also then the small issue of the rest of the football league pyramid being insolvent as is.

You make this sound like a bad thing.

[Dave McCoy]

You make this sound like a bad thing.

Well I'd say all the best players leaving and nobody investing in the clubs would be bad.  And that's just the PL, the rest of the pyramid would basically cease to exist as is.

[CHOPPER]

The other point that no one seems to be addressing with the idea of "fan ownership" is that the fans are a very large and disparate group of people who have different backgrounds, different perspectives and different opinions on things. How do you properly represent the entire fanbase?

The foot soldiers and the retired put to grass foot soldiers. Then after that, not sure they count.

[diggerling!]

Well I'd say all the best players leaving and nobody investing in the clubs would be bad.  And that's just the PL, the rest of the pyramid would basically cease to exist as is.

The tap wouldn't run dry overnight, it would be a gradual resetting of finances to sustainable levels.

[Dave McCoy]

The tap wouldn't run dry overnight, it would be a gradual resetting of finances to sustainable levels.

So not only would you force the sale but you'd require them to continue to fund it at the previous levels for an indeterminate amount of time?  Please explain how this works in any reality?

[diggerling!]

So not only would you force the sale but you'd require them to continue to fund it at the previous levels for an indeterminate amount of time?  Please explain how this works in any reality?

I'm not proposing that we force a sale and I wouldn't require them to fund it indeterminately. They aren't even funding it now - we are.

Perhaps you haven't noticed but the game is on its knees. Clubs are going bankrupt and fans are getting very seriously pissed off with the status quo. I'd quite like there to be a professional game in this country for my kids and grandkids to one day enjoy. Please explain, with the ways things are heading, how this works in any reality.

[Eeyore]

So not only would you force the sale but you'd require them to continue to fund it at the previous levels for an indeterminate amount of time?  Please explain how this works in any reality?

FFP stopped owners from funding it.

[Dave McCoy]

I'm not proposing that we force a sale and I wouldn't require them to fund it indeterminately. They aren't even funding it now - we are.

Perhaps you haven't noticed but the game is on its knees. Clubs are going bankrupt and fans are getting very seriously pissed off with the status quo. I'd quite like there to be a professional game in this country for my kids and grandkids to one day enjoy. Please explain, with the ways things are heading, how this works in any reality.

This is the 50+1 thread which assumes ownership of half the club has to go elsewhere so I'm making an assumption that is what you're talking about.  If you're advocating for a different solution then maybe a different thread should be made to discuss that.

As far as the funding of these clubs, what you're saying applies to maybe 4 PL clubs.  The rest, and especially the Championship and below, are dependant on owner financing to operate.