Topic: If you hear of hardship to a person or business because of Brexit..

[oldfordie]

The abuse is fully justified to be honest. Being detached doesn't make you more objective, it just makes you even more selfish and means you showed a callous disregard for the people who actually live here.

You say that your vote was based "a lengthy analysis of what the EU actually is, its origins and history". The whole concept of the EU was to make a continent that had been at near constant war with itself with millennia so culturally and economically integrated that future conflict became unthinkable. The mere thought of France and Germany going to war again now seems ludicrous where for centuries it was the default state of relations between the two.

You claim to "believe in a world without borders, with free trade, freedom of movement, and reduced bureaucracy" and yet you voted for something that erects new borders, restricts free trade and free movement and massively increase bureaucracy. It's an absolutely fucking laughable argument and you can't be surprised when you are treated with contempt for making it.

The rest of your post is just Lexit nonsense that doesn't stand up to the slightest scrutiny. You basically gambled membership of an organisation that has provided numerous benefits to the UK for the sake of a fantasy socialist utopia knowing that if it didn't work out the consequences wouldn't affect you. Everything the Tories are doing to this country now is a direct result of the 23rd of June 2016. You don't get to just wash your hands of that and claim that the government run by the Vote Leave campaign is nothing to do with you because you didn't vote Tory.

Excellent post.

[TheShanklyGates]

Actually the original point i was making was that there are other reasons to have voted Brexit, other than RACISM or BEING CONNED BY THE TORIES.

I explained one such reason.

...and look at the response it has garnered.


I think in essence I have proven my own point.

This thread is a microcosm of the Brexit argument (without the Frottage-fapping racists, it would seem).

Its THEM and US.

And if you voted Leave, for ANY reason, even if your moral compass was set by some perhaps fanciful distant future dream of a socialist , non-capitalist utopia, you are STILL called all the names under the sun.

Unbelieveable.

I feel that if i ever met any of you lads and lasses in the pub, we'd all (mostly) be on the same page , ideologically and politically. Not to mention (of course) footbally.

It's a shame you can't accept people who have a different opinion to you, though.

You can't keep reducing this to 'a difference of opinion'. Your vote had hugely damaging real world consequences to millions of people (not you though of course) and people are fucking angry about it.

[El Lobo]

Actually the original point i was making was that there are other reasons to have voted Brexit, other than RACISM or BEING CONNED BY THE TORIES.

I explained one such reason.

...and look at the response it has garnered.


I think in essence I have proven my own point.

This thread is a microcosm of the Brexit argument (without the Frottage-fapping racists, it would seem).

Its THEM and US.

And if you voted Leave, for ANY reason, even if your moral compass was set by some perhaps fanciful distant future dream of a socialist , non-capitalist utopia, you are STILL called all the names under the sun.

Unbelieveable.

I feel that if i ever met any of you lads and lasses in the pub, we'd all (mostly) be on the same page , ideologically and politically. Not to mention (of course) footbally.

It's a shame you can't accept people who have a different opinion to you, though.

Quid a pint down the 'spoons?

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Quid a pint down the 'spoons?

 

[rob1966]

All you've told us is what many other leave voters and campaigners told us, you told us all the things you hate about the EU with no concern for the consequences of leaving the EU.
Shocking how many people seemed to look at leaving the EU as a slump rather than a consequence.
How they are willing to take the short term pain from leaving the EU, why did they assume this was short term like yourself. why do you think this will be short term, what will happen to bring back jobs and investment.?
The country isn't facing a slump it's facing years trying to compete with countries under far worse trading conditions.
I would like to hear 1 reason why you think your families standard of living etc will improve in years to come as a result of Brexit. it's all been about I hate this and i hate that as usual.

He lives in Indonesia, what difference will it make to him?

[smutchin]

I, on the other hand, have done nothing other than explain a possible non-racist reason why someone might vote Leave. Not only that, but a reason backed by , what I would deem at least, solid morals such as socialism, internationalism, and anti-capitalism.

So you voted for Brexit in the hope that Corbyn would later get elected and make Britain a socialist utopia... that's naive at best.

In fact, what you voted for was even more power being handed over to unelected elites and global corporate interests.

You keep saying you're more objective than the rest of us, but there's nothing remotely objective about your depiction of what the EU is or what it stands for.

[KillieRed]

Lets just add a "go fuck yourself" and a "wanker" into the mix then eh?
Honestly, you need to grow up fella.

I could list 10 personal insults you have thrown at me in this thread, and yet you're still here.

I, on the other hand, have done nothing other than explain a possible non-racist reason why someone might vote Leave. Not only that, but a reason backed by , what I would deem at least, solid morals such as socialism, internationalism, and anti-capitalism.

If you feel those moral standpoints are wrong,t hen lets have a discussion about that. If you feel that those moral standpoints can not be achieved by a Britain outside of the EU, then lets discuss that.

If, on the other hand, you'd rather continue to call me a c*nt, twat, wanker, sanctimonious, bollocks go fuck myself, then so be it.

Could you name me a tangible benefit of Brexit please?

I have to say I’m intrigued as to how you think the UK will become a socialist utopia, a beacon of internationalism by giving this (almost) permanent right-wing government exactly what it wanted; complete control. Are the masses finally, finally going to rise up against our Tory overlords now that you’ve enabled them to do whatever they want? Say again how there were two GEs after your little win, but you didn’t see this coming. You been reading the wrong propaganda.

[oldfordie]

He lives in Indonesia, what difference will it make to him?

He still has family in the UK and thinks they will take a short term brexit hit. 

[J_Kopite]

While I think he's talking shite, is there really any need for the insults and abuse to said poster? RAWK should be better than that.

[Elmo!]

While I think he's talking shite, is there really any need for the insults and abuse to said poster? RAWK should be better than that.

Ideally not but I can understand why coming on here and effectively saying "I'm objective because this doesn't even affect me unlike you guys" has touched a nerve.

[kj999]

The abuse is fully justified to be honest. Being detached doesn't make you more objective, it just makes you even more selfish and means you showed a callous disregard for the people who actually live here.

You say that your vote was based "a lengthy analysis of what the EU actually is, its origins and history". The whole concept of the EU was to make a continent that had been at near constant war with itself with millennia so culturally and economically integrated that future conflict became unthinkable. The mere thought of France and Germany going to war again now seems ludicrous where for centuries it was the default state of relations between the two.

You claim to "believe in a world without borders, with free trade, freedom of movement, and reduced bureaucracy" and yet you voted for something that erects new borders, restricts free trade and free movement and massively increase bureaucracy. It's an absolutely fucking laughable argument and you can't be surprised when you are treated with contempt for making it.

The rest of your post is just Lexit nonsense that doesn't stand up to the slightest scrutiny. You basically gambled membership of an organisation that has provided numerous benefits to the UK for the sake of a fantasy socialist utopia knowing that if it didn't work out the consequences wouldn't affect you. Everything the Tories are doing to this country now is a direct result of the 23rd of June 2016. You don't get to just wash your hands of that and claim that the government run by the Vote Leave campaign is nothing to do with you because you didn't vote Tory.

The existence of trade blocks such as the EU creates more trade barriers. If there were no trade blocks in the world, then there would have to, by definition, be open trade.
And as for freedom of movement. A friend of mine from Australia once applied for a job in Spain. Got to the final 2 against a lad from UK. The British lad got it, based on the fact that the school didn't have to get a vise sorted for him, whereas they would have had to for the Aussie fella. So freedom of movement only benefits those within the bloc. It discriminates against those outside. NO blocs, NO restrictions on trade or movement. See?

The rest of your post is actually a reasoned counter argument to what i have said. A bit of decent educated debate.

...aprt from the first bit:
"The abuse is fully justified"

..when is abuse EVER justified?

Disagreement, yes. Debate, yes.

But abuse? Calling me a c*nt, twat, thick, etc? Is JUSTIFIED?

what the fuck?

[rob1966]

He still has family in the UK and thinks they will take a short term brexit hit. 

50 years (Rhys Moggs words) isn't a short term hit

[kj999]

Ideally not but I can understand why coming on here and effectively saying "I'm objective because this doesn't even affect me unlike you guys" has touched a nerve.

And i have no problem with anyone thinking i am talking shite, or saying so

And for the last time... I didn't mean the objectivity in a way of saying "i am better than you coz i can see from the outside"... i just meant it as, when one is not as directly affected by the immediate results of a referenda, one can perhaps BE more objective, as one won't feel the immediate downsides as much, and can perhaps look to other , future outcomes.

Yes, I did hope that Labour would win in 2017.
I did hope that Britain leaving the EU would destabalise it, and perhaps be the first cracks that led to its eventual downfall.
I did hope that this would then lead to a sweeping ground change in the way we do things.
Another Way (read Varoufakis)

If all that makes me an idealsitic, naive bellend, then yeah, I'm a naive, idealistic bellend. Time will tell.

It doesnt however make me half of things i have been called in this thread, you bunch of judgemental pricks.

[TheShanklyGates]

The existence of trade blocks such as the EU creates more trade barriers. If there were no trade blocks in the world, then there would have to, by definition, be open trade.
And as for freedom of movement. A friend of mine from Australia once applied for a job in Spain. Got to the final 2 against a lad from UK. The British lad got it, based on the fact that the school didn't have to get a vise sorted for him, whereas they would have had to for the Aussie fella. So freedom of movement only benefits those within the bloc. It discriminates against those outside. NO blocs, NO restrictions on trade or movement. See?

The rest of your post is actually a reasoned counter argument to what i have said. A bit of decent educated debate.

...aprt from the first bit:
"The abuse is fully justified"

..when is abuse EVER justified?

Disagreement, yes. Debate, yes.

But abuse? Calling me a c*nt, twat, thick, etc? Is JUSTIFIED?

what the fuck?

You're talking in fantasies again. We have to deal with the reality of the world as it is, not the fantasy we would like it to be. Brexit hasn't done anything to reduce trade barriers with the rest of the world. Our borders are no more open with Morocco or Uruguay or Australia or any other non-EU country now than they were before Brexit, our trade with them is no more free than it was before. All it has done is create new ones with Europe and even within the UK between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.

Also again, you're reducing this to a simple 'disagreement' as if were a theoretical or academic debate. It isn't, Brexit has hugely damaging real world consequences and has fucked over so many people. You can't be surprised that there is an emotional reaction to that.

[stoa]

The existence of trade blocks such as the EU creates more trade barriers. If there were no trade blocks in the world, then there would have to, by definition, be open trade.

So, let's say the EU collapses after Brexit. What happens then? All the countries in the world stop to exist and goods move freely from one place to another without any restriction? Yes, you are indeed a naive bellend and I can objectively say that, because Brexit doesn't affect me... 

[ChaChaMooMoo]

The existence of trade blocks such as the EU creates more trade barriers. If there were no trade blocks in the world, then there would have to, by definition, be open trade.
And as for freedom of movement. A friend of mine from Australia once applied for a job in Spain. Got to the final 2 against a lad from UK. The British lad got it, based on the fact that the school didn't have to get a vise sorted for him, whereas they would have had to for the Aussie fella. So freedom of movement only benefits those within the bloc. It discriminates against those outside. NO blocs, NO restrictions on trade or movement. See?

So many things wrong with this line of thought.

1. No blocks DOES NOT mean "no restrictions". It means MORE restrictions.

2. The way free trade works is if you are within the bloc, you have benefits. You leave the bloc, you lose those benefits. That's like me living in a 2 bedroom apartment and demanding that the security from the neighbouring villa, also safeguard my house.

3. Also, Brexit voted leave to get out of ALL relationships with the EU. This means, as far as EU is concerned, trades with Britain will have the same conditions as trading with India for example. You voted leave thinking it means no restrictions. But you were brainwashed and misled and lied to about what comes with it. Well sure, no restrictions is ONE of them. But it is not the ONLY thing.

As for the abuse you are getting, I don't think it's warranted. Maybe you are not a c*nt. But your reasons were cuntish enough and selfish enough. You had to exercise your right to vote (which is fine BTW), but then, because of the leave votes that wouldn't be affected in any way shape or form, every single one of them are affected. So that's what I mean when I say your reasons were cuntish enough.

[smutchin]

If there were no trade blocks in the world, then there would have to, by definition, be open trade.

Hmmmm. You really think that's how it works?

Hard to know where to begin with this. It's just complete and utter nonsense.

[Craig S]

The existence of trade blocks such as the EU creates more trade barriers. If there were no trade blocks in the world, then there would have to, by definition, be open trade.

Er no, removal of Trade blocs would leave each and every country to set whatever trade barriers and tariffs it wanted to. It would probably increase trade barriers and lead to less open trade. You would likely have trade barrier wars.
To simply state as fact as you have is at best gullible. So go ahead and write "by definition" to try and make it a fact, but don't get offended when people call it out as utter shite.

[Andy82lfc]

My vote was not determined or affected by my personal circumstances. I don’t live in the UK (but I retain my right to vote in elections and referenda) so would not feel any personal impact of the outcome either way. - What was that description of some brexiteers, the 'I'm alright jack' brigade. Could not have a better description.

I AM an internationalist. I believe in a world without borders, with free trade, freedom of movement - Voted for brexit, to close borders, to stop feee movement.

I am currency reading Varoufakis’s “Another Way” (I highly recomment it). A great take on the world that we COULD be living in.  - To paraphrase a classic: 'Apes read philosophy too, they just don't understand it. 

Repeatedly mentions being objective but all responses seem anything but.  

[rodderzzz]

This knob claiming that not living in the UK gave him more context as if he's seen a light nobody in the UK can see can get to fuck. I moved away 12 years ago, have a bunch of expat friends Ive met along the way, none of whom thought for a second that leave was a good option. Granted, they're not all narrow minded racists like so that might have something to do with it.

I don't want anyone getting the impression that expats where more in support of Leave. That is pure bollocks.

[Hazell]

Does this mean I should get to vote in the next Indonesian elections because I can take an objective view unlike the people who live there?

[TSC]

The existence of trade blocks such as the EU creates more trade barriers. If there were no trade blocks in the world, then there would have to, by definition, be open trade.

By referring to ‘bloc’ this relates to the EU protecting its single market and customs union to the benefit of members (constituent country states).  It is after all the largest trading bloc in the world.  Any country is free to negotiate a trade agreement with the EU, although this tends to take some time, unless you’re Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson et al who implements any old agreement irrespective of the damage to his country, just to ‘get brexit done’.

In the absence of trade agreements the default position is trade in accordance with WTO terms.  Have a look at the tariffs relevant to WTO terms.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

I am still reading that last message of his and wondering how on earth does one post this knowing how ignorant and misinformed it sounds. How on earth does voting to create a literal (and figurative) border result in a borderless society?

So freedom of movement only benefits those within the bloc. It discriminates against those outside. NO blocs, NO restrictions on trade or movement.

Of course, I want my Doberman to safeguard my house first. That's literally the first (and possibly the only) reason I bought one in the first place - to safe guard my house and my property.

Plus the ironic nature of his signature.

Clarity of Thought before Rashness of Action...

[kj999]

Er no, removal of Trade blocs would leave each and every country to set whatever trade barriers and tariffs it wanted to. It would probably increase trade barriers and lead to less open trade. You would likely have trade barrier wars.
To simply state as fact as you have is at best gullible. So go ahead and write "by definition" to try and make it a fact, but don't get offended when people call it out as utter shite.

Only in a world where trade blocs exist.
If blocs exist, then of course, inherently, it is better to be in one.

If no blocs exist, we all go to WTO rules.

Yes, WTO rules suck.
But only in comparison to trade rules in blocs.

Do you think that in a wold with no trade blocs, WTO rules would be so restrictive?

[kj999]

Does this mean I should get to vote in the next Indonesian elections because I can take an objective view unlike the people who live there?

If you have a right to vote, then yes.

Even better if you know the situation, have lived here before, and now feel emotionally unattached to the extent to which you can observe, and understand the situation. Go right ahead.

[kj999]

I am still reading that last message of his and wondering how on earth does one post this knowing how ignorant and misinformed it sounds. How on earth does voting to create a literal (and figurative) border result in a borderless society?

Of course, I want my Doberman to safeguard my house first. That's literally the first (and possibly the only) reason I bought one in the first place - to safe guard my house and my property.

Plus the ironic nature of his signature.

I obviously know that Brexit does not lead to open borders. Indeed, it closes them, in the present scenario.

My point is that while "closed-shop" blocs exist, then those outside willl suffer. Hence my example.

Aaaand. I don't blame anyone in the UK for looking after 'number one' - per your doberman analogy. Of course you will vote for what protects YOU. Who wouldn't?

But what it does is this - the longer the EU exists, the longer capitalist interests are protected, the longer we're all fucked in the long term.

[smutchin]

In the absence of trade agreements the default position is trade in accordance with WTO terms.  Have a look at the tariffs relevant to WTO terms.

I think kj is advocating doing away with all international trading agreements, including WTO, on the basis that we would then all be free to do what we liked without restrictions or tariffs.

As Craig says, this would in fact have the opposite effect.

Hey, we could end up having another opium war with China. That would be fun. Only trouble is we would lose this time. Very badly.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

I obviously know that Brexit does not lead to open borders. Indeed, it closes them, in the present scenario.

My point is that while "closed-shop" blocs exist, then those outside willl suffer. Hence my example.

Aaaand. I don't blame anyone in the UK for looking after 'number one' - per your doberman analogy. Of course you will vote for what protects YOU. Who wouldn't?

But what it does is this - the longer the EU exists, the longer capitalist interests are protected, the longer we're all fucked in the long term.

Except in the case of those who voted leave, they voted to "not have" the Doberman that was offered (and being used by the neighbourhood) and instead wanted the neighbour's Doberman to protect. A bird in hand IS NOT worth two in the bush.

Think of it for a second. You (and others) voted leave thinking it will help the market. But the British market hadn't negotiated any deal with every other market in the world. And because countries knew they would expect Britain to come begging for a deal, they decided it was time to fleece them. Which is what is happening now. Britain is unable to close deals because they cant get a fair deal done. They cant trade internally because the market is not diverse. They cant trade with the EU because they complain about the burocracy. Its a major fuck up. Accept it. You might've had your reasons to vote leave, but they are all systematically dismanteled over the last 5 years. It was a mistake. A cluster fuck of epic proportions.

[Elmo!]

I obviously know that Brexit does not lead to open borders. Indeed, it closes them, in the present scenario.

My point is that while "closed-shop" blocs exist, then those outside willl suffer. Hence my example.

Aaaand. I don't blame anyone in the UK for looking after 'number one' - per your doberman analogy. Of course you will vote for what protects YOU. Who wouldn't?

But what it does is this - the longer the EU exists, the longer capitalist interests are protected, the longer we're all fucked in the long term.

The EU and other trading blocs are a stepping stone towards what you want.... and you voted to rip it apart.

And we didn't just vote to look after number one, we voted to look after all of those who live here....

[kj999]

This knob claiming that not living in the UK gave him more context as if he's seen a light nobody in the UK can see can get to fuck. I moved away 12 years ago, have a bunch of expat friends Ive met along the way, none of whom thought for a second that leave was a good option. Granted, they're not all narrow minded racists like so that might have something to do with it.

I don't want anyone getting the impression that expats where more in support of Leave. That is pure bollocks.

Good for you and your expat friends.

Are you insinuating I am a narrow minded racist, by the way?  You better fucking not be.

What you ARE doing is calling me  a knob, and telling me to 'get to fuck'.

So i have reported you.

The level of abuse is a fucking disgrace.


Anyway. To address your point.
I'm not in any way suggesting i am a paragon of virtue and a purveyor of every British Expat opinion.

I merely offered a possible reason for voting Brexit that was not to do with racism or being Tory or being conned. As I am non of the above.

I didnt say that "lving in the UK gave me more context". I TOLD you that i didnt live in the UK , to give YOU my contextual standpoint, which is one of that who is not as DIRECTLY affected by the repercussions of Brexit as someone who lives in those isles.

My point was, when one takes the personal affects out of a situation, it is perhaps easier to see the potential long term benfits, that one would perhaps have had a scotoma to.

Do you need that in baby talk?

YOU LIVE IN THE UK.
THE BREXIT CONSEQUENCES WOULD AFFECT YOUR LIFE. SO LIKELY, YOU VOTE WITH THAT IN MIND. YOUR JUDGEMENT IS AFFECTED BY YOUR PERSONAL CIRCUMSTANCES. Yes?

Regardless of anything else, first and foremost, you look after number one. You vote for what is best for you. Who wouldn't? and along the way, if you also think that is best for your family, your kids, and the future of the planet, whatever, then great. Thats your opinion. I'm not going to criticise that.

I don't live in the UK. I have no plans to return there. Or to Europe.

My principles are, left-wing, socialist, anti-capitalist.

I personally view the EU to be a bureacratic gravy train, undemocratic, and primarily obsessed with a) its own survival, and b) with the protection ofthe Euro, european banks, and multinationals.

Do you see how my view of the EU, is not compatible with, my ideological principles? Hmm?
Do you further see how my idological principles are NOTNOTNOT aligned with racism, conservatism, or any of that shite? Hmm?

Again, happ to be called a naive idealist.

Not happy to be thrown in amongst the fascists, called a knob, made sweeping generalisations about.

The personal abuse in here is a fuckin embarrassment and I thought RAWK was above this. I love a debate. But it seems that if you hold an opinion about something that doesnt fit the party line, you're hung out to dry, and can be called all the names under the fucking sun.

[Hazell]

If you have a right to vote, then yes.

I wouldn't even if I had the right to. It's irresponsible at best.

Even better if you know the situation, have lived here before, and now feel emotionally unattached to the extent to which you can observe, and understand the situation. Go right ahead.

I think others have explained better than I could why the above isn't actually true.

[kj999]

I think kj is advocating doing away with all international trading agreements, including WTO, on the basis that we would then all be free to do what we liked without restrictions or tariffs.

As Craig says, this would in fact have the opposite effect.

Hey, we could end up having another opium war with China. That would be fun. Only trouble is we would lose this time. Very badly.

You've kinda got my point. And i do get that, in the current world, it may well have the opposite effect.

[TSC]

But what it does is this - the longer the EU exists, the longer capitalist interests are protected

It may be an idea to look beyond the EU with regards to capitalism.  It kind of existed before the creation of the EU and obviously transcends the EU.

[kj999]

The EU and other trading blocs are a stepping stone towards what you want.... and you voted to rip it apart.

And we didn't just vote to look after number one, we voted to look after all of those who live here....

I'd like to think that. But i don't see it (as explained here several times).

If the EU actually IS a force for good, then one member leaving will make no difference. If the EU is a "step towards what I want", then "what I want" will happen, eventually, according to your logic.

And yes, you voted to "Look after all who live here". Again, i get it. But what about the millions who do not live there? Who suffer daily because they do not live in a prosperous trading bloc (backed by capitalism). What about those whose lives have not been affected AT ALL by Britain leaving the EU (because they never benefitted from the capitalist protectionism the EU wrought?)

I'm glad yous were all doing so well in the pre-Brexit world. Millions weren't.
And the whole "well how does Brexit help them" bullshit, eah, i've heard it all before. I know Brexit won't help them. What will help them is a collapse in the status quo, and the rise of Another Way.

[TheShanklyGates]

The personal abuse in here is a fuckin embarrassment and I thought RAWK was above this. I love a debate. But it seems that if you hold an opinion about something that doesnt fit the party line, you're hung out to dry, and can be called all the names under the fucking sun.

Mate, you voted to fuck over millions of people and now you're getting upset that some of the people you voted to fuck over are angry with you. I really don't know what you expected.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

Let me be clear. I am against abuse in any form. I am only against your reasons for your voting. You have a right to vote and you used it. I have a right to get pissed off at your choice, I am.

BTW, the case with your Aussie and Spanish friend? Happened to me. I got a PhD at Loughborough. I was rejected because I was not from EU.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Long term as in what Mogg admitted after he and his mates all cashed in on Brexit,50ys down the line.


Fact is you didn't research fuck all.

[stoa]

Do you see how my view of the EU, is not compatible with, my ideological principles? Hmm?
Do you further see how my idological principles are NOTNOTNOT aligned with racism, conservatism, or any of that shite? Hmm?

Again, happ to be called a naive idealist.

Not happy to be thrown in amongst the fascists, called a knob, made sweeping generalisations about.

At the end of the day, you voted for a unicorn. Yours is not white, it's multi-coloured, but it's a unicorn nonetheless. And to get that unicorn, you decided to march amongst racists, bigots, idiots and rich people, who were trying to get even richer. If you seriously think that it was in any way shape or form a possibility that voting for Brexit would create a world as you want it, I feel sorry for you, because that's just fucking nuts. The sun will explode before the world will turn into a place where all the people everywhere live together happily and everyone just looks after another.

[kj999]

It may be an idea to look beyond the EU with regards to capitalism.  It kind of existed before the creation of the EU and obviously transcends the EU.

Absolutely. I completely get that of course.

The demise of the EU is not a cure to the ills of capitalism. But it may be a start.

And Brexit may (probably wont) hasten, nay trigger, the demise of capitalism... but it may be a start.

Regardless. I think about 95% of commenters have completely missed my point.

I don't think that Britain leaving the EU is harmless, or without damage.
I don't think it will benefit anyone, right now, or even in the near future.

I hwever have political, social, and ideological principles that are not compatible with the EU. So whe posed with a question of whether to remain or leave, I voted leave, based on the principles outlined above.

Yous can bang on all day about YOUR reasons for voting how you did, and i get them ALL.

My point was, initially, to pose a non-racist, non-conned reason why someone might vote Leave, hoping that some might see the value in some of the principled reasoning behind my reasoning. Even if you though it was naive, pie-in-the-sky bullshit. No problem.

I am an educator who tries each day to teach about the past, how we got here, how things CAN change, and how i believe in a future free from the shackles of capitalism (again, read "Another Way" ... cant summarise it here).

You may believe my connective reasoning to be bullshit , and it may well be. You may believe i am a naive clown, and i may well be. But if you believe my moral principles are wrong, then i when it comes to who is more of a c*nt, i'd have to suggest, you look in the mirror.

Moreover, if anyone believes that, because i voted Leave for the reasons i have outlined here, that i deserve to be called a c*nt, a twat, a wanker, a retard, a knob etc... then i think you're bigoted in the extreme.

[kj999]

Long term as in what Mogg admitted after he and his mates all cashed in on Brexit,50ys down the line.


Fact is you didn't research fuck all.

Double negative there fella. "Didn't research fuck all" actually means that i DID research ALL. So yeah, for once, I agree with you.