Author Topic: Pros and cons of new stadiums vs redevelopment.  (Read 27903 times)

Offline satmann

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2020, 02:02:16 pm »
You just got to look at what’s happened to Arsenal since their move and recent comments by Wenger there’s no way we would have enjoyed the recent success in a new stadium. Anfield and the way the stands etc are, have played a massive part in this. I was hoping for a stadium move but have to admit FSG have made the best alongside hiring Klopp decision in remaining at Anfield. Traditional Stadiums all day long.

Offline poopscoop

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2020, 02:21:19 pm »
It is not really maintenance that is required, by definition maintenance just preserves the existing condition. What is required is continual improvement and modernisation and that costs far more than maintenance. That is often what is missed when people compare a new Stadium to a partially redeveloped one.

Even with maintenance Old Trafford would still be miles behind Spurs new Stadium in terms of facilities and the ability to generate revenue. A good example is the amount of money the Spurs Stadium generates simply from food and drink. Spurs are generating 800k a game just from the restaurants and food outlets on-site.

The other thing is how much each Club will have to spend over the next few decades on their Stadium to keep pace with their rivals. Spurs Stadium looks hideously expensive at first glance but it is far more nuanced than that.

In the late 80s we used to look at San Siro like it was some sort of divine football cathedral. It was an amazing place to watch football.  I don't get the same from the Spurs ACME bowl - monetisable as it is.
I get your point about consistent stadium enhancement rather than maintenance. The lack of investment at Milan has meant little dedicated corporate revenue or facilities and the club now exploring plans for a new build.
For my twopenneth, Liverpool were correct to redevelop rather than move. The rebuild of the main stand is a brilliant advert for delivering a great facility without massive disruption and increase matchday and corporate income at the same time. Roll on the Annie Road End.

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2020, 02:41:41 pm »
In the late 80s we used to look at San Siro like it was some sort of divine football cathedral. It was an amazing place to watch football.  I don't get the same from the Spurs ACME bowl - monetisable as it is.
I get your point about consistent stadium enhancement rather than maintenance. The lack of investment at Milan has meant little dedicated corporate revenue or facilities and the club now exploring plans for a new build.
For my twopenneth, Liverpool were correct to redevelop rather than move. The rebuild of the main stand is a brilliant advert for delivering a great facility without massive disruption and increase matchday and corporate income at the same time. Roll on the Annie Road End.
In the 1980s we used to look at Goodison Park as .....

Oh... wait.. no.
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Offline Uncle Ronnie

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2020, 02:42:49 pm »
There's an episode of The Simpsons where Marge bakes a birthday cake specifically for Homer to ruin, just so he doesn't ruin the main one.

Just a thought for the mods.

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2020, 03:40:43 pm »
There's an episode of The Simpsons where Marge bakes a birthday cake specifically for Homer to ruin, just so he doesn't ruin the main one.

Just a thought for the mods.
:lmao
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Offline Agent99

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2020, 04:14:02 pm »
I'm annoyed that it will take until 2022 to put up a tent or park a caravan. FSG out!

Offline Paul1611

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2020, 06:12:13 pm »
I got a free ticket through work for Spurs V Southampton last week.  Was in the large stand behind the goal with safe standing seating.  I must say it was an impressive stand, 17,000 or so, but the atmosphere wasnt the best haha!  I was imagining this as the Kop with everyone singing YNWA...
They also still have  lot of work to do in and around their stadium.  No shop, limited food stalls, lots of work clearly going on.

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2020, 06:18:25 pm »
In the 1980s we used to look at Goodison Park as .....

Oh... wait.. no.

I'll take "What is a rubbish tip for $500.00, Alex..."
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Offline Fromola

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2020, 06:55:55 pm »
It is not really maintenance that is required, by definition maintenance just preserves the existing condition. What is required is continual improvement and modernisation and that costs far more than maintenance. That is often what is missed when people compare a new Stadium to a partially redeveloped one.

Even with maintenance Old Trafford would still be miles behind Spurs new Stadium in terms of facilities and the ability to generate revenue. A good example is the amount of money the Spurs Stadium generates simply from food and drink. Spurs are generating 800k a game just from the restaurants and food outlets on-site.

The other thing is how much each Club will have to spend over the next few decades on their Stadium to keep pace with their rivals. Spurs Stadium looks hideously expensive at first glance but it is far more nuanced than that.

It also depends how good a job you do with the development. Look at the Anny Road, it's only 20 years since the last development but pay cheap pay twice.

Where United are ahead of the game though is capacity. If we take the emotional drawer of Anfield out of it, would we rather have a state of the art, all singing all dancing 60k stadium or a functional 76k one (same location)? We missed a generation of fans in the 2000s and you can't even get on a season ticket waiting list for the last decade. Liverpool tickets are exchanged for hundreds or even thousands of pounds now on the market, whereas they're not difficult to get hold of at Old Trafford (now or 10 years ago).

A ground can also be too fancy (The Emirates for example). Football grounds are about character and atmosphere, not padded seats and fancy cheeses. Of course finances are the bottom line but if The Emirates makes 10 million a year more than Anfield in revenue, we make that back a lot more in other ways in stadium terms.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2020, 07:06:00 pm by Fromola »
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2020, 11:05:53 pm »
Given the fact that Shahid Khan tried to purchase Wembley, reportedly with the view of moving the Jaguars there, it shows you that everything is up in the air regarding if, when, who and where an NFL Franchise is in London.

And now Spurs are going to form their own NFL side? We've gone from a NFL franchise moving to London, Spurs new stadium being the host venue for this franchise to now Spurs being the franchise. I'm worried about continuing this conversation any further, next you'll be turning Spurs into the Harlem Globetrotters too.

It's certainly not out of the realm of possibilities that the NFL expands and adds another franchise.  And, the guy that owns the Spurs is a billionaire right?  There's a lot of money to be made owning an NFL team and if he has the money and the stadium it could definitely happen. 

Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #50 on: February 18, 2020, 01:55:29 am »
It is not really maintenance that is required, by definition maintenance just preserves the existing condition. What is required is continual improvement and modernisation and that costs far more than maintenance. That is often what is missed when people compare a new Stadium to a partially redeveloped one.

Even with maintenance Old Trafford would still be miles behind Spurs new Stadium in terms of facilities and the ability to generate revenue. A good example is the amount of money the Spurs Stadium generates simply from food and drink. Spurs are generating 800k a game just from the restaurants and food outlets on-site.

The other thing is how much each Club will have to spend over the next few decades on their Stadium to keep pace with their rivals. Spurs Stadium looks hideously expensive at first glance but it is far more nuanced than that.

What is more often missed is that a new stadium like Spur's cost £1bn for the same capacity that will cost £250m or £300m at Anfield.

As for income, Anfield earned more per seat 2018/2019 than Old Trafford and only slightly less than the Emirates despite the North's relative modest pricing structures and both Man U and Arsenal's plethora of corporate facilities and boxes. Anfield is doing pretty well, even better than expected but the trick is to keep costs down for comparable income.

Spurs, we'll have to see when they've had a full season at their new ground but the rather simple nuance is the difference between income and cost. I'd rather the club had done what it has done without a billion pounds millstone around its neck. Redevelopment is the short, medium and long term solution, whatever the cost of maintenance. I'd rather maintain that than maintain anything like a billion pound debt.

Spurs will rue the day. Just as Arsenal has done already. Invincibles to nowhere in one decade of a new stadium.
.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 02:17:19 am by Peter McGurk »

Offline Eeyore

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #51 on: February 18, 2020, 12:22:37 pm »
What is more often missed is that a new stadium like Spur's cost £1bn for the same capacity that will cost £250m or £300m at Anfield.

As for income, Anfield earned more per seat 2018/2019 than Old Trafford and only slightly less than the Emirates despite the North's relative modest pricing structures and both Man U and Arsenal's plethora of corporate facilities and boxes. Anfield is doing pretty well, even better than expected but the trick is to keep costs down for comparable income.

Spurs, we'll have to see when they've had a full season at their new ground but the rather simple nuance is the difference between income and cost. I'd rather the club had done what it has done without a billion pounds millstone around its neck. Redevelopment is the short, medium and long term solution, whatever the cost of maintenance. I'd rather maintain that than maintain anything like a billion pound debt.

Spurs will rue the day. Just as Arsenal has done already. Invincibles to nowhere in one decade of a new stadium.
.

That is just nonsense Peter. Arsenal didn't go from Invincibles to nowhere in a decade. They won the League in 03-04 so we will look at what around a decade later. from 11-12 to 15-16 they finished 3rd, 4th, 4th, 3rd and 2nd,. they won two FA Cups, two community shields and reached the knockout stages of the Champions League every season.

Sure financing the Stadium may of had an impact but not as much as Abramovich and Mourinho combining at Chelsea, United becoming a financial powerhouse or Abu Dhabi throwing money at City. Add in Wenger failing to evolve and Kroenke's disastrous tenure and maybe we should ask what kind of trouble Arsenal would be in if they didn't have the huge match day revenues that the Emirates Stadium generates.

If you look at the ownership, the managerial choices and their poor acquisition model that has seen them spunk a ridiculous amount of money at their attack. Then I would say the Emirates is one of the few positives.
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Offline SP

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #52 on: February 18, 2020, 12:31:21 pm »
There is rather a lot of guff been posted that seems to be predicated on the assumption that the cost of a ticket is predicated on the facilities. People buy tickets to watch the football.  The amount of legroom has no bearing on the price - other than perhaps relative to other seats in the stadium.

Spurs charge higher prices because they are in London, which has a much larger corporate market. Johnson is doing his best to reduce this, but it is likely to linger for some time.

Offline Eeyore

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #53 on: February 18, 2020, 12:48:59 pm »
There is rather a lot of guff been posted that seems to be predicated on the assumption that the cost of a ticket is predicated on the facilities. People buy tickets to watch the football.  The amount of legroom has no bearing on the price - other than perhaps relative to other seats in the stadium.

Spurs charge higher prices because they are in London, which has a much larger corporate market. Johnson is doing his best to reduce this, but it is likely to linger for some time.

People travel on a plane to go somewhere it doesn't mean that things like legroom and facilities don't impact on the price. Football has moved away from just being about the Football. It is about getting people in to the Stadium for longer periods and getting them to spend more money. We might not like it but that is how it is. So things like space and facilities are crucial to the fan experience. A better fan experience means you can charge more money.

Local fans might just want to get in and out of the ground and spend there money in their favourite watering holes but increasingly Clubs are pandering to people who will only go a few times a season and who want to get their early have something to eat and drink.
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Offline SP

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #54 on: February 18, 2020, 01:06:59 pm »
People travel on a plane to go somewhere it doesn't mean that things like legroom and facilities don't impact on the price. Football has moved away from just being about the Football. It is about getting people in to the Stadium for longer periods and getting them to spend more money. We might not like it but that is how it is. So things like space and facilities are crucial to the fan experience. A better fan experience means you can charge more money.

Local fans might just want to get in and out of the ground and spend there money in their favourite watering holes but increasingly Clubs are pandering to people who will only go a few times a season and who want to get their early have something to eat and drink.

The ticket price is driven by the football. The difference in concessions take between a new build and a refurb is fairly small - and would struggle to justify even 10s of millions of capital spend, let alone most of a billion.

Offline campioni

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #55 on: February 18, 2020, 02:46:24 pm »
Richard Hammond has done a documentary on Spurs new stadium which is on Discovery Channel tomorrow night at 9pm. 

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #56 on: February 18, 2020, 03:00:19 pm »
Richard Hammond has done a documentary on Spurs new stadium which is on Discovery Channel tomorrow night at 9pm.

He's not even a real hamster.

Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #57 on: February 18, 2020, 06:56:04 pm »
That is just nonsense Peter. Arsenal didn't go from Invincibles to nowhere in a decade. They won the League in 03-04 so we will look at what around a decade later. from 11-12 to 15-16 they finished 3rd, 4th, 4th, 3rd and 2nd,. they won two FA Cups, two community shields and reached the knockout stages of the Champions League every season.

Sure financing the Stadium may of had an impact but not as much as Abramovich and Mourinho combining at Chelsea, United becoming a financial powerhouse or Abu Dhabi throwing money at City. Add in Wenger failing to evolve and Kroenke's disastrous tenure and maybe we should ask what kind of trouble Arsenal would be in if they didn't have the huge match day revenues that the Emirates Stadium generates.

If you look at the ownership, the managerial choices and their poor acquisition model that has seen them spunk a ridiculous amount of money at their attack. Then I would say the Emirates is one of the few positives.

Have you forgotten that they started construction in the year they last won the league and they moved in just two years later? By the time the team grew old, they were not ever replaced and they are where they are.

That is a really good summary.

The two things I would add is that over time Spurs Stadium costs are likely to flatline whereas their match day revenue is likely to go up. The other point is that Spurs will have to spend almost nothing on their Stadium over the next couple of decades. We are unable to say the same.

As you say it is far more nuanced than looking at a cost per seat. Look at Peter McGurk who eulogised over United's gradual redevelopment of Old Trafford. Funny enough now shambolic Old Trafford has a leaking roof and a vermin problem he doesn't post any more.

You think I worry about Old Trafford? It does ok. £106m last year. If the £110m projection for Spurs is true, they will have spent a billion pounds for an extra £4m a year. Impressive... not.

People travel on a plane to go somewhere it doesn't mean that things like legroom and facilities don't impact on the price. Football has moved away from just being about the Football. It is about getting people in to the Stadium for longer periods and getting them to spend more money. We might not like it but that is how it is. So things like space and facilities are crucial to the fan experience. A better fan experience means you can charge more money.

Local fans might just want to get in and out of the ground and spend there money in their favourite watering holes but increasingly Clubs are pandering to people who will only go a few times a season and who want to get their early have something to eat and drink.

A rather ancient argument and nothing has changed. You can get no more money from a new stadium than you can from a redevelopment. No more from a 'mansion' than you do from a big house. Anfield has proved that in spades.

The advantage is that it's less than half the cost. It's a pretty simple cashflow curve that Spurs will never ever catch up.

.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 07:54:34 pm by Peter McGurk »

Offline Eeyore

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #58 on: February 19, 2020, 11:48:25 am »
Have you forgotten that they started construction in the year they last won the league and they moved in just two years later? By the time the team grew old, they were not ever replaced and they are where they are.

Fantastic revisionism there Peter. They won their last title with their greatest ever League season. The problem wasn't that they dropped off it was that Chelsea, Abramovich and Mourinho raised the bar. The Invincibles got 90 points in 03-04 then Chelsea raised the bar with a record 95 in 04-05. Are you really suggesting that if Arsenal had stayed at Highbury they could of got 96 points in 04-05.

Arsenal are where they are now because they of how they have been run on and off the pitch over the last few years. If the real reason isn't how a club is run but whether they refurb or go for a new Stadium. Could you please explain why United have fallen off a cliff since Ferguson retired and Woodward took the reins off the pitch.

You think I worry about Old Trafford? It does ok. £106m last year. If the £110m projection for Spurs is true, they will have spent a billion pounds for an extra £4m a year. Impressive... not.

I would love you to show me how United developed Old Trafford for free Peter. The real problem for United is that their match day revenue is static, their Stadium is crumbling with a leaking roof and vermin infestation and requires 100's of millions spending on it to even bring it up to basic modern standards. Spurs have more than doubled their match day revenue United have stagnated.

A rather ancient argument and nothing has changed. You can get no more money from a new stadium than you can from a redevelopment. No more from a 'mansion' than you do from a big house. Anfield has proved that in spades.

The advantage is that it's less than half the cost. It's a pretty simple cashflow curve that Spurs will never ever catch up.


The simple answer is that Spurs have a curve which is only going to improve if they get an NFL team and naming rights. United haven't. What they will never get back is the kind of match day revenue they have lost out on whilst their match day revenue has stagnated and their Stadium has continued to crumble.

If you are correct and the answer is always to refurbish and not rebuild why were you so keen to see so many houses around Anfield destroyed when there is a desperate need for housing.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2020, 11:58:27 am by Al 666 »
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Offline Eeyore

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #59 on: February 19, 2020, 12:01:16 pm »
I, for one, am glad that a proper traditional football stadium gets extended instead of building a new modern one. Those toilet seat-shaped new stadiums make me vomit and hysterically laugh at the same time!!!

Personally I think there are pros and cons to both largely depending on the Clubs individual circumstances.
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Offline TheMightyReds

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #60 on: February 19, 2020, 12:01:31 pm »
Not sure what the issue is but surely it is a no brainer really to renovate Anfield. It isn't just about the cost, which just so happens to be over half the price of a new build.

It's common sense. If you already have a unique asset (history, atmosphere, teams familiar surroundings etc) you can redevelop to modern standards then you would be a fool to want to demolish it and spend another £500M to build a brand new one.

It's also prudence that we are doing so in phases. Enabling a deeper look each time we do redevelop, but also pay back on investment is smoother and the net effect on the team isn't nowhere near as great.

With the Arsenal talk we are going off tangent but surely anyone anywhere can see that they had to sell off their best players (RVP, Adebayor, Henry, Fabregas, Ashley Cole etc) to balance the books.

I'm more interested in the speed in which they (FSG) do the redevelopment. Currently a little slow but if they have a master plan for the whole stadium which it looks like they do then it is a win win situation. The slow wrap around of that reddish brick is working it's way round. A little more rustic and darker would look better.

The Kop development is where it is at. Will FSG have the courage, ambition and long term interest to develop that. If they do, and it gets done with a realignment of WBR and traffic solutions then really it has been a great achievement.




Offline Eeyore

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #61 on: February 19, 2020, 12:32:15 pm »
Not sure what the issue is but surely it is a no brainer really to renovate Anfield. It isn't just about the cost, which just so happens to be over half the price of a new build.
We are only getting half a renovated Stadium though.

It's common sense. If you already have a unique asset (history, atmosphere, teams familiar surroundings etc) you can redevelop to modern standards then you would be a fool to want to demolish it and spend another £500M to build a brand new one.

It's also prudence that we are doing so in phases. Enabling a deeper look each time we do redevelop, but also pay back on investment is smoother and the net effect on the team isn't nowhere near as great.

I can see the logic in that argument. That for me is why you have to look at each clubs circumstances and judge each case individually. I just don't agree with the back and white arguments that redeveloping what you have is good and new build is bad. For me both options have their pros and cons.

With the Arsenal talk we are going off tangent but surely anyone anywhere can see that they had to sell off their best players (RVP, Adebayor, Henry, Fabregas, Ashley Cole etc) to balance the books.

That is missing the point though they sold the likes of Anelka and Overmars well before they moved to the Emirates. Bigger Clubs will always look to cherry pick your best players. I just don't see the logic in the argument that staying at Highbury with much smaller revenues would of enabled them to hold on to players when bigger clubs came in for them. 

I'm more interested in the speed in which they (FSG) do the redevelopment. Currently a little slow but if they have a master plan for the whole stadium which it looks like they do then it is a win win situation. The slow wrap around of that reddish brick is working it's way round. A little more rustic and darker would look better.

The Kop development is where it is at. Will FSG have the courage, ambition and long term interest to develop that. If they do, and it gets done with a realignment of WBR and traffic solutions then really it has been a great achievement.


I think FSG made it pretty clear what they were intending to do in the leaked emails from the New York court case. Personally I don't think extending either the Kenny or the Kop are viable in the short to medium terms. That for me is one of the negatives. I think the last chance for that was the ARE. If we wanted a bigger Kop then the only way would of been to move both the ARE and the further away from the Kop and thereby extending it's footprint.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2020, 12:33:57 pm by Al 666 »
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Offline CraigDS

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #62 on: February 19, 2020, 12:42:04 pm »
There's an episode of The Simpsons where Marge bakes a birthday cake specifically for Homer to ruin, just so he doesn't ruin the main one.

Just a thought for the mods.

I've got the flour and eggs, anyone wanna help?  ::) ::)

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #63 on: February 19, 2020, 02:18:35 pm »
In the simplest of terms, FSG saw a club with one of the largest fanbases in the world who were just sitting there watching games on TV every week far far away. A untapped rich resource. And they had the pretty obvious idea to try and get money out of them all. They marketed the 'where ever you are, your'e part of the LFC Family' dream and we want you to come to our house. Please, come. Look how historical and ancient and traditional it is. You are part of that. Come worship at the alter. Buy a top on your way out. Be the 12th man/woman! HISTORY!!!! TRADITION!!! SHANKLY YNWA etc.

Why they would want to lose all that leverage by knocking it down and putting something new there with none of that attached. The new Tottenham stadium has nothing to do with their past. Nor the Emirates. Its shiny and nice and new and big and all the sides match each other, but it's basically just a big shit cinema. 

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #64 on: February 19, 2020, 02:52:09 pm »
What the badgery fucking shit is everyone droning on about?

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #65 on: February 19, 2020, 03:13:04 pm »
Craig’s making a cake.

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #66 on: February 19, 2020, 03:17:03 pm »
What the badgery fucking shit is everyone droning in about?



I'm glad someone asked.

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #67 on: February 19, 2020, 09:54:46 pm »
Spurs losing another game at their shiny new soulless bowl. hard to believe few actually want that over staying at anfield with all its history and character.

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #68 on: February 19, 2020, 11:43:08 pm »
...I would love you to show me how United developed Old Trafford for free Peter. The real problem for United is that their match day revenue is static, their Stadium is crumbling with a leaking roof and vermin infestation and requires 100's of millions spending on it to even bring it up to basic modern standards. Spurs have more than doubled their match day revenue United have stagnated.

The simple answer is that Spurs have a curve which is only going to improve if they get an NFL team and naming rights. United haven't. What they will never get back is the kind of match day revenue they have lost out on whilst their match day revenue has stagnated and their Stadium has continued to crumble.

If you are correct and the answer is always to refurbish and not rebuild why were you so keen to see so many houses around Anfield destroyed when there is a desperate need for housing.

Yes. I am correct and it's not rocket science. Spurs have spent a billion pounds to (potentially) get where United are for a fraction of the cost. They have enjoyed the benefit of progressive redevelopment and hugely bigger difference between income and cost since the nineties.

If it's time for a refurbishment at Anfield in 25 years, I'd rather that than start over with a massive billion to pay. It's worked mate. It is working. And we stay at Anfield. I'd say get over it but there's nothing to get over. Just enjoy.

As for the SKD and the Kop - well everyone said even the Main Stand was impossible! And the ARE - there's a road in the way....
« Last Edit: February 19, 2020, 11:57:03 pm by Peter McGurk »

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #69 on: February 20, 2020, 07:33:57 am »
Spurs matchday revenue when at the old White Hart Lane was approx £55m. We won't know for sure what they're making from the new stadium for another 12 months but all reports are that it will be the highest in the League so a conservative estimate will be £110m. The yearly cost of financing their stadium will be in the region of £25m per season. So even before you factor in any possibly naming rights deal, Spurs will be around £30m per season better off which can then be put back into the football club.

Our matchday revenue from our last season in the CL pre Main Stand extension (so we're comparing like for like) was £59m. That's grown to £83m as of last season and if we look forward to when the Annie Road is done, we'll hopefully be in the £90-95m per season range. Finance costs of around £3-5m per season so net gain for around £30m, pretty much the same as Spurs. Spurs may argue that they have the potential of gaining another £20m per season from a possible naming rights deal but that's countered by the risk of carrying such a high debt.

There's no right or wrong way of doing things. It's all dependent on the circumstances each club finds themselves in and you can take two completely different approaches and end up with nearly the same results as ourselves and Spurs probably have done.

Where'd you get £25m a year for Spurs' repayments? The figure is close to double that


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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #70 on: February 20, 2020, 08:24:23 am »
People travel on a plane to go somewhere it doesn't mean that things like legroom and facilities don't impact on the price. Football has moved away from just being about the Football. It is about getting people in to the Stadium for longer periods and getting them to spend more money. We might not like it but that is how it is. So things like space and facilities are crucial to the fan experience. A better fan experience means you can charge more money.

Local fans might just want to get in and out of the ground and spend there money in their favourite watering holes but increasingly Clubs are pandering to people who will only go a few times a season and who want to get their early have something to eat and drink.

And right there you make the argument for redevelopment rather than wholsale rebuilding.

Quote
Local fans might just want to get in and out of the ground and spend there money in their favourite watering holes
These supporters want their spec at an affordable price and a general improvement in facilities (toilets, bars etc). They don't want or need the improvements that go with a 'world class stadium'.

Quote
...increasingly Clubs are pandering to people who will only go a few times a season and who want to get their early have something to eat and drink...
For these people you create new facilities and seating areas in areas of the ground that can be built from scratch.

The Main Stand redevelopment kept 44,000 seats and added a massive increase in high end facilities with a tier of hospitality and a tier of GA tickets on top.

You're saying the locals should have to pay extra on their tickets for facilities that are for the benefit of the part-timers.
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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #71 on: February 20, 2020, 08:26:32 am »
In the simplest of terms, FSG saw a club with one of the largest fanbases in the world who were just sitting there watching games on TV every week far far away. A untapped rich resource. And they had the pretty obvious idea to try and get money out of them all. They marketed the 'where ever you are, your'e part of the LFC Family' dream and we want you to come to our house. Please, come. Look how historical and ancient and traditional it is. You are part of that. Come worship at the alter. Buy a top on your way out. Be the 12th man/woman! HISTORY!!!! TRADITION!!! SHANKLY YNWA etc.

Why they would want to lose all that leverage by knocking it down and putting something new there with none of that attached. The new Tottenham stadium has nothing to do with their past. Nor the Emirates. Its shiny and nice and new and big and all the sides match each other, but it's basically just a big shit cinema.

Nailed it!

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #72 on: February 20, 2020, 08:28:35 am »
Spurs losing another game at their shiny new soulless bowl. hard to believe few actually want that over staying at anfield with all its history and character.

Yeah... but they might get an NFL franchise though... think of that.
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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #73 on: February 20, 2020, 10:39:31 am »
Often when my kitchen is dirty, instead of cleaning it I just buy a new house.

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #74 on: February 20, 2020, 10:46:52 am »
Often when my kitchen is dirty, instead of cleaning it I just buy a new house.

Saw a mouse at mine the other day. Haven't got round to calling the bulldozers yet

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #75 on: February 20, 2020, 11:36:14 am »
Where'd you get £25m a year for Spurs' repayments? The figure is close to double that



What repayments? Spurs have effectively taken out a number of interest only loans and the yearly interest they'll pay is somewhere in the £25m region, potentially even less in fact. As and when these loans are due to be repaid they'll just refinance them again. It's possible that they may decide to reduce this debt at some point in the future but they're not committed to doing so.

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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #76 on: February 20, 2020, 12:51:26 pm »
And right there you make the argument for redevelopment rather than wholsale rebuilding.
 These supporters want their spec at an affordable price and a general improvement in facilities (toilets, bars etc). They don't want or need the improvements that go with a 'world class stadium'.
 For these people you create new facilities and seating areas in areas of the ground that can be built from scratch.

The Main Stand redevelopment kept 44,000 seats and added a massive increase in high end facilities with a tier of hospitality and a tier of GA tickets on top.

You're saying the locals should have to pay extra on their tickets for facilities that are for the benefit of the part-timers.

That is why my argument from the start has always been that there are pros and cons to both options and that what is the correct decision for us isn't necessarily the best option for Spurs.
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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #77 on: February 20, 2020, 01:15:22 pm »
Yes. I am correct and it's not rocket science. Spurs have spent a billion pounds to (potentially) get where United are for a fraction of the cost. They have enjoyed the benefit of progressive redevelopment and hugely bigger difference between income and cost since the nineties.

Firstly I am not sure United and Spurs Stadium's are now comparable. Secondly given the plot Spurs had I am not sure it would of been possible for them to redevelop their Old ground and got the same sort of capacity and facilities, plus it would still of been more expensive because it is in the Capital.

Thirdly Anfield plus the plan to redevelop the main stand and the ARE end has taken over thirty years and still hasn't come fully to fruition. You don't seem to mind the incredible loss of income we have suffered over three decades. You also don't seem to mind the destruction of a community and hundreds of homes. Your arrogance is breathtaking, your view is that redevelopment is always better than a new build but you have absolutely no problem destroying peoples homes and then rebuilding new ones when it fits with your agenda.


If it's time for a refurbishment at Anfield in 25 years, I'd rather that than start over with a massive billion to pay. It's worked mate. It is working. And we stay at Anfield. I'd say get over it but there's nothing to get over. Just enjoy.

As for the SKD and the Kop - well everyone said even the Main Stand was impossible! And the ARE - there's a road in the way....

The main stand might of worked and the ARE may work but they will still of taken 3 decades to come to fruition. What do you suggest now buying and tinning up homes that might make the Kenny or Kop possible in 2050 ?
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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #78 on: February 20, 2020, 08:24:40 pm »
We are only getting half a renovated Stadium though.

Snip/
Spoiler
I can see the logic in that argument. That for me is why you have to look at each clubs circumstances and judge each case individually. I just don't agree with the back and white arguments that redeveloping what you have is good and new build is bad. For me both options have their pros and cons.

That is missing the point though they sold the likes of Anelka and Overmars well before they moved to the Emirates. Bigger Clubs will always look to cherry pick your best players. I just don't see the logic in the argument that staying at Highbury with much smaller revenues would of enabled them to hold on to players when bigger clubs came in for them. 

I think FSG made it pretty clear what they were intending to do in the leaked emails from the New York court case. Personally I don't think extending either the Kenny or the Kop are viable in the short to medium terms. That for me is one of the negatives. I think the last chance for that was the ARE. If we wanted a bigger Kop then the only way would of been to move both the ARE and the further away from the Kop and thereby extending it's footprint.
[close]

What's your point,you not happy about us staying in one of the most famous stadiums on the planet ?


As for the rest,who gives a shit about Arsenal and their boring bowl ?
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Re: Re: Echo Update on Anfield Road Extension
« Reply #79 on: February 20, 2020, 11:53:59 pm »
What repayments? Spurs have effectively taken out a number of interest only loans and the yearly interest they'll pay is somewhere in the £25m region, potentially even less in fact. As and when these loans are due to be repaid they'll just refinance them again. It's possible that they may decide to reduce this debt at some point in the future but they're not committed to doing so.

Ah, I hadn't read up on their refinancing deal. Does that not seem like a bit of a millstone? £640m sitting their untouched?