Topic: James Milner - El Burro Magnifico

[Klippity Klopp]

I don't really care which two start out of Can, Henderson & Wijnaldum. 

I just don't want to see all three together and one should be replaced with one of Milner, Lallana, Coutinho or Ox.

Given Lallana is injured, Coutinho is needed in the front three without Mane, Klopp has said Ox isn't ready for CM & Milner was our best player mid week.  I hope Milner keeps his place instead of one of Can, Henderson & Wijnaldum.

That midfield trio is killing our game, as it lacks the balance needed which hinders our whole attacking game.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Nice hypocrisy in there. Use Klopp as proof Wijnaldum is boss but Can is shit, evil and a liability despite Klopp playing him all the time.

  You couldn't write it.

I don't really care which two start out of Can, Henderson & Wijnaldum. 

I just don't want to see all three together and one should be replaced with one of Milner, Lallana, Coutinho or Ox.

Given Lallana is injured, Coutinho is needed in the front three without Mane, Klopp has said Ox isn't ready for CM & Milner was our best player mid week.  I hope Milner keeps his place instead of one of Can, Henderson & Wijnaldum.

That midfield trio is killing our game, as it lacks the balance needed which hinders our whole attacking game.

I do agree with this. There were plenty on here persistently acting like Henderson, Wijnaldum and Lallana were the holy trinity last season, and without any of those three we suddenly turned shit, completely ignoring the fact that Can had already replaced Wijnaldum in batterings of Palace, West Brom, Watford etc.

Any top-class midfield trio - regardless of its structure - requires balance: ideally this comes in the form of a defensively shrewd dictator from deep, an energetic, tidy facilitator in the middle and a genuinely creative force furthest forward. Think Busquets/Xavi/Iniesta or Alonso/Mascherano/Gerrard in the previous decade, or Kroos/Modric/Isco & Fernandinho/Silva/De Bruyne currently. The trio of Henderson, Can and Wijnaldum is two or three levels below these on a creative level.

Last season, with the individual form & fitness of our players, that best trio was Henderson, one of Can or Wijnaldum, and Lallana.

Right now, with Henderson and Wijnaldum having poor seasons and Lallana injured, it's probably Can, Milner and Coutinho, though I would have one of Henderson or Wijnaldum in there and Coutinho further forward on Sunday given the nature of the game and Mané's injury as you allude to.

I expect Klopp to keep the same three as against United however.

[Curtisinho]

Nice hypocrisy in there. Use Klopp as proof Wijnaldum is boss but Can is shit, evil and a liability despite Klopp playing him all the time.

I didn't use selection as proof that Wijnaldum is boss. Reading and comprehension are your friends. Klopp is stubborn in his team selection, but there's a difference between that and outright speaking of how important a player is to the system and singling them out.

Whatever floats your boat though.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

I didn't use selection as proof that Wijnaldum is boss. Reading and comprehension are your friends. Klopp is stubborn in his team selection, but there's a difference between that and outright speaking of how important a player is to the system and singling them out.

Whatever floats your boat though.

Are you suggesting that Klopp has never praised Emre Can?

[Klippity Klopp]

Right now, with Henderson and Wijnaldum having poor seasons

I agree with your post, except for this part, as I'm not sure why those two are singled out.  Can has been just as hit & miss for me.
 
I'd say Henderson, Can and Wijnaldum are all having patchy seasons.  Some really good games individually, some poor games.

But all three will benefit more when the balance of the midfield is right, as you say above.

Put a Milner (or Lallana or Ox or Coutinho) in CM, who isn't scared to support the wide players, get forward and create.  That allows Wijnaldum, Henderson & Can to do what they do best, offer the energy, breaking up playing and giving the control in games. 

The problem with the other three together is I don't think Wijnaldum or Can, when played ahead of Henderson know who is meant to be the more attacking player.  They're probably both expected to take the initiative, but it ends up neither do.  Then Henderson probably feels he has to force things.  When his priority should be to be disciplined and doing the ugly stuff, keeping it fairly simple in possession.

I'll be a bit disappointed if it's that same three against Spurs.  However it is far more likely to work against Spurs than it did against United.  As Spurs will attack us, so the need to have a creative spark in CM will be less.  When it is essential against those sides that sit deep.

I watched Milner's performance back mid week, I think he was really impressive.  What I most liked was his clever use of the ball and supporting runs, something our side have lacked without Lallana.

[Curtisinho]

Are you suggesting that Klopp has never praised Emre Can?

I didn't suggest that at all either. Please read what I said before attempting to attack things that aren't there.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

I didn't suggest that at all either. Please read what I said before attempting to attack things that aren't there.

I understand what you are saying. You are justifying your praise of Wijnaldum not necessarily through Klopp's selection of him as Pyro initially suggested, but due to his (and Lijnders') previous public praise of him.

What you are failing to acknowledge, however, is that Klopp at some point will have praised every individual player, including Can. It's in both his nature and his interest to do so. Sometimes it will be fully deserved, sometimes it may come across over-generous.

Branding Wijnaldum "excellent" and Can "awful" and then hiding behind vague previous praise - not even praise of this specific game! - as justification of your own opinion isn't overly legitimate. It's fine if you rate Wijnaldum and don't rate Can. But you should probably back it up with your own views, not the manager's, because he picks and praises both of them. Hinting otherwise is disingenuous.

[Curtisinho]

I wasn't speaking specificly of praise though. I was talking about actual discussion about their playstyle, philosophy and how Wijnaldum fits into that. They've never done that (to my knowledge) about Can. Of course any time someone puts in a good performance or does something spectacular (an overhead kick for example) they'll receive praise; those things are obvious and will garner questions. Overall play and fit in a system is a little different.

I can't fathom how anyone actually paying attention to what Can does as a whole, not just his occasional run/shot/pass, can actually think that he fits in our midfield and is a strong contributor in a positive way to the team. I do feel if people look more into what has been said of Wijnaldum, and pay attention to what he does for the team and how he plays they can gain perspective and appreciation for him. The more I watch of Can the more negative I notice. Maybe it's confirmation bias, but I don't think so as I've found a lot of the things I've noticed discussed in other places (including here). I personally still think that we should have kept Allen instead of opening up time for Can (though I think that may have been more related to his starting spot, which is neither here nor there).

Anyway, it's a bit of a derailment. You don't have to agree with me. Wijnaldum was excellent against United though; he looked very lively, especially in the first half.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

I agree with your post, except for this part, as I'm not sure why those two are singled out.  Can has been just as hit & miss for me.
 
I'd say Henderson, Can and Wijnaldum are all having patchy seasons.  Some really good games individually, some poor games.

But all three will benefit more when the balance of the midfield is right, as you say above.

Completely agree with the last line and the rest of your post here (hence cutting it out ).

I agree all three have been patchy but on the flip-side I don't think Henderson or (particularly) Wijnaldum have hit the heights Can has in certain games to redeem said patchiness. Can was absolutely sensational at home to Hoffenheim and Arsenal and he also helped us move up the pitch away to Hoffenheim when dropping in for Henderson after the skipper was stinking the place out. Can also got a lovely assist for Salah against Burnley and looked tidy the other night, both from that deeper role.

Henderson, in fairness, was good in the league against Leicester and very good away to Spartak from that role, too. But both him and Wijnaldum were subsequently dreadful against Newcastle and characterised our lack of ability to set a tempo and create decent chances.

The no-brainer move for me on Sunday would be to drop Wijnaldum, bring Henderson in deep and allow Can to rampage into the open Wembley spaces. I feel our tempo is suffering at the moment when Henderson and Wijnaldum are on the pitch together because, combined, they're too timid and safe.

[Klippity Klopp]

The no-brainer move for me on Sunday would be to drop Wijnaldum, bring Henderson in deep and allow Can to rampage into the open Wembley spaces. I feel our tempo is suffering at the moment when Henderson and Wijnaldum are on the pitch together because, combined, they're too timid and safe.

Well agree to disagree on the form on Can, Henderson & Wijnaldum then.

I think Can has probably had the biggest swings in form, as I agree he was superb against Arsenal & Hoffenheim, but I think he's had some right stinkers in there as well.  Just switching off defensively far too often, Babu has posted some of these times on here.

If it was me on Sunday, I'd have Can as the 6, Henderson ahead of him being let off the leash and Milner in that Lallana role.

But I think we all expect Henderson 6, Can & Wijnaldum ahead, which would be harsh on Milner and the CM would still lack that creative spark.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Wijnaldum's performance against United was excellent; people who can't appreciate what he brings to the team don't understand the system.

I can't wait until I'm clever enough to understand what Wijnaldum brings to the team that I'm not seeing.

[fowlermagic]

Ok just wanted to come in and praise the lad for a terrific performance and thinking he just reminded Klopp and the rest of us that he should seriously be banging on the door for a start in the league. Instead I see his performance getting lost in a discussion about others.....not sure what to add to that shyte but maybe Milner can increase the competition on the starting 11 which will hopefully raise our overall game in midfield as to be honest it needs raising.

[So… Howard Philips]

Ok just wanted to come in and praise the lad for a terrific performance and thinking he just reminded Klopp and the rest of us that he should seriously be banging on the door for a start in the league. Instead I see his performance getting lost in a discussion about others.....not sure what to add to that shyte but maybe Milner can increase the competition on the starting 11 which will hopefully raise our overall game in midfield as to be honest it needs raising.

I thought this was the Milner thread as well as you.

[Klippity Klopp]

It is the Milner thread and I have seen nothing but praise for his performance.

But when you talk about players, you talk about how they fit in the system and what they add.

Hence why you also discuss the other CM players.

[fowlermagic]

It is the Milner thread and I have seen nothing but praise for his performance.

But when you talk about players, you talk about how they fit in the system and what they add.

Hence why you also discuss the other CM players.

How does Milner fit into the system? That is the question to answer in this thread as I would still have him in our starting 11, he still brings enough game intelligence and experience that others are lacking. He showed the other night he can be an attacking threat while last season was able to adapt his game to fulfill a decent role as fullback. He has an eye for space for a pass, he can put a foot / block in when defending is required. If I was going to convert any of our midfielders into a holder, Milner would have gotten the nod before Henderson. Henderson is doing an okay job but the lad was a better box to box midfielder, hes  not exactly shielding our back line to many clean sheets this season. There is very little separating our midfielders as none of them are currently ripping up tree roots. To even be talking about Milner shows the issues we have in midfield as James was not a factor last season in the midfield debate. Himself & Henderson could be okay foils as 2 box to box midfielders while still shielding the backline. Once Lallana returns this discussion is void anyway but love to see how Milner would work out in the middle first.

[B0151?]

Don't know about Milner starting but I think he is unlucky not to have come on in recent games, and would have been the better option in midfield over Ox. Might have even made a difference. Would be happy for him if he got a chance after his performance last game, the qualities he brings are obvious, and it is something different to our starting 3.

[jepovic]

I wouldn't mind Milner playing a bit more, he seems to be in good form, but I think his limitations will be re-discovered pretty quickly against better teams. Just like the other CMs, he's an ok CM - no more, no less.

And what's worse, I don't think he provides any unique qualities, but he's more of the same as Can, Gini and Henderson. Coutinho and Lallana offer something different, the ability to play under pressure and create space. That's what we miss.

[fowlermagic]

I wouldn't mind Milner playing a bit more, he seems to be in good form, but I think his limitations will be re-discovered pretty quickly against better teams. Just like the other CMs, he's an ok CM - no more, no less.

And what's worse, I don't think he provides any unique qualities, but he's more of the same as Can, Gini and Henderson. Coutinho and Lallana offer something different, the ability to play under pressure and create space. That's what we miss.

I think the age factor is the main barrier as BabuYagu really thinks anyone around 30 has a limited role in Klopps system. Pity as I do believe game intelligence really kicks in as a player ages, Milner still has some pace about him and surely knows when to conserve his energy / press when required. Its not as if our 11 can press all the time and some younger players press when they shouldnt leaving gaps that others have to fill thus weakening the overall system anyway. Just going by Klopps interview yesterday I dont see Milner starting this weekend and continuing his squad role for the season.

[Johnny B. Goode]

I agree with the general view that Milner hasn't got the technical flair of Lallana and Coutinho, and is not great in tight spaces etc like our other CMs.

He is, however, far superior at almost everything concerning finishing, crossing, dribbling, passing and positional awareness if compared to Henderson/Can/Gini. He's just a better footballer, even if not of the right 'kind'.

[Klippity Klopp]

and would have been the better option in midfield over Ox. Might have even made a difference. Would be happy for him

What's this based on, out of interest?

Given we've not seen Ox in CM here yet and he did very well for Arsenal in that role last season.

I find it a strange comment.

Although I do think Milner should get more chances, especially with Lallana out and Coutinho needed in the front three.

[hasan]

What's this based on, out of interest?

Given we've not seen Ox in CM here yet and he did very well for Arsenal in that role last season.

I find it a strange comment.

Although I do think Milner should get more chances, especially with Lallana out and Coutinho needed in the front three.

agree with above.  Milner might not be very good technically but he does open his body up very quickly to get a cross on with either foot when out wide, whereas Can and Wini tend to go back with the ball ,- nothing wrong but needs to be varied.  Overall our 3 midfielders do give their all, its just that they lack that extra bit of quality, we will always subconsioulsy compare our central midfields with SG and Xabi Alonso and to be quite honest are there any other midfielders in the prem at that level?

[AaronSingh25]

He played well, albeit against weak opposition. Bought some much needed creativity into the middle of the park.

He deserves to start the next match.

[kkhaku]

I think the age factor is the main barrier as BabuYagu really thinks anyone around 30 has a limited role in Klopps system. Pity as I do believe game intelligence really kicks in as a player ages, Milner still has some pace about him and surely knows when to conserve his energy / press when required. Its not as if our 11 can press all the time and some younger players press when they shouldnt leaving gaps that others have to fill thus weakening the overall system anyway. Just going by Klopps interview yesterday I dont see Milner starting this weekend and continuing his squad role for the season.

The dynamism and the energy always comes first for Klopp, and it would actually take a poor run of form from one of our midfielders to see Milner earn a starting spot.

Ironically, that's what got him into the team as fullback (Moreno's poor form), but now it's what's keeping him out. Sturridge and Robertson are in similar positions. Both are very capable replacements, and in some instances better options - but Klopp will very rarely deviate from the 90 minutes of extreme tempo and workrate that he gets from Firmino and Moreno. It's not just the pressing, but the ability and willingness to never rely only on your skillset, and to constantly out hustle your opposite number and run yourself into the ground each week is not something every player is capable of.

For me, if Milner gets his shot it'll be at the expense of Can, who seems to have odd moments of laziness defensively, hasn't committed his future to the club, and will probably be back on the bench once Lallana is fit again.

[CrasherKid79]

The dynamism and the energy always comes first for Klopp, and it would actually take a poor run of form from one of our midfielders to see Milner earn a starting spot.

Ironically, that's what got him into the team as fullback (Moreno's poor form), but now it's what's keeping him out. Sturridge and Robertson are in similar positions. Both are very capable replacements, and in some instances better options - but Klopp will very rarely deviate from the 90 minutes of extreme tempo and workrate that he gets from Firmino and Moreno. It's not just the pressing, but the ability and willingness to never rely only on your skillset, and to constantly out hustle your opposite number and run yourself into the ground each week is not something every player is capable of.

For me, if Milner gets his shot it'll be at the expense of Can, who seems to have odd moments of laziness defensively, hasn't committed his future to the club, and will probably be back on the bench once Lallana is fit again.

Milner puts as hard a shift in as anybody in the game. The issue last year is that he was overused and at his age run into the ground.

Don’t think his workrate is a problem. He’s fresh as well having seen little action this season.

[eldagara]

I hope next time a game like Maribor wouldn't deceived fans. Milner is not good & if he could still offer something he wouldn't be here like he were at city. Is time for him to go back to Villa.
Although we cherish averageness, that's the only reason Milner is loud by most of us.

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[SamAteTheRedAcid]

I hope next time a game like Maribor wouldn't deceived fans. Milner is not good & if he could still offer something he wouldn't be here like he were at city. Is time for him to go back to Villa.
Although we cherish averageness, that's the only reason Milner is loud by most of us.

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Awful post, topped off by crap phone bollocks at the end.

Don't think Milner is that loud personally. He's a good player, no way he belongs in the Championship, that's just utter rubbish.

[eldagara]

Awful post, topped off by crap phone bollocks at the end.

Don't think Milner is that loud personally. He's a good player, no way he belongs in the Championship, that's just utter rubbish.

Hey! Milner don't insult my phone, i didn't still it. Haha, that is why we are receiving championship goals with him in the team

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[SamAteTheRedAcid]

Hey! Milner don't insult my phone, i didn't still it. Haha, that is why we are receiving championship goals with him in the team

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You make less and less sense with each post

[Kashinoda]

I hope next time a game like Maribor wouldn't deceived fans. Milner is not good & if he could still offer something he wouldn't be here like he were at city. Is time for him to go back to Villa.
Although we cherish averageness, that's the only reason Milner is loud by most of us.

Sent from my TECNO K7 using Tapatalk

Fantastic post mate and I agree with every word, from I hope to Tapatalk.

Just to clarify though, people are foolish to judge a player on one game. But to judge him on the following game is absolutely fine if it reinforces a negative viewpoint?

[eldagara]

Fantastic post mate and I agree with every word, from I hope to Tapatalk.

Just to clarify though, people are foolish to judge a player on one game. But to judge him on the following game is absolutely fine if it reinforces a negative viewpoint?

Good point Kashinoda, i don't want to judge Milner on the following game. But the question is, will Milner get a bench place at Spurs, afc, cfc, city? OK wait, he will be a 40m target for Madrid next window. Its foolish part of us to want to win top honors by lauding averageness

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[eldagara]

You make less and less sense with each post

You appear dumb in each reply

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[redprodigal]

Good point Kashinoda, i don't want to judge Milner on the following game. But the question is, will Milner get a bench place at Spurs, afc, cfc, city? OK wait, he will be a 40m target for Madrid next window. Its foolish part of us to want to win top honors by lauding averageness

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You remind me of Stanley Unwin.

[mrantarctica]

Simple for me. He's just not good enough to be a regular starter. He's very much a squad player that adds a bit of composure and experience to the squad, has a good attitude and probably trains very well. What qualities does he bring to the team that are indispensable? What qualities make him a threat in the attacking aspects of the game or the defensive ones? If he was playing in his best position and got injured, would we find it difficult to replace him? Would anyone jump at the opportunity to buy him off us, and if so, who?

For me, the answers to these questions are a bit of an acid test as to whether a player is really good enough to be a regular starter at a top team. Just look around the league at top players (e.g. Delle Alli, Carrick, Fernandinho) and ask the same questions, and see if the answers are more or less the same when you ask them with Milner.

Good squad player no doubt, and too good to be in the Championship like some are suggesting, but you don't build a title winning squad around James Milner's. Man City didn't when he was in his prime, so why would we do it now? Better to accept why he's here which is clearly as a bit of a backup player, which I think he does reasonably well. I would point the gun at many others first before looking at Milner if we want to play the blame game for our bad results. 

[Ravishing Rick Dude]

I really hate it when some people feel the need to come out with a statement about a player,rather than giving an opinion.

[Poet]

agree with above.  Milner might not be very good technically but he does open his body up very quickly to get a cross on with either foot when out wide, whereas Can and Wini tend to go back with the ball ,- nothing wrong but needs to be varied.  Overall our 3 midfielders do give their all, its just that they lack that extra bit of quality, we will always subconsioulsy compare our central midfields with SG and Xabi Alonso and to be quite honest are there any other midfielders in the prem at that level?

KDB..

[Dench57]

Wonder who will be our designated penalty taker now. Stick with Millie?

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Wonder who will be our designated penalty taker now. Stick with Millie?

Dont see how he would be when he isnt starting

[Dench57]

Dont see how he would be when he isnt starting

So who does that leave us with? Phil would be the obvious choice.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

So who does that leave us with? Phil would be the obvious choice.

Coutinho is terrible at penalties.Mane,Firmino (he missed one so what)

[pyroparty]

Should be Emre if Firmino doesn’t want them again.