Topic: Doesn't matter who you vote for as long as it's for the right reasons!

[Mr Benn please?]

Interesting piece here about Johnson's performance in PMQs and how it's all linked to him being the front man for Cummings and not having sufficient grasp on detail to be able to respond to Starmer's criticism of the Govt's policies. All speculation of course but probably not too far from what's actually happening in No 10 at present.

https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/why-is-johnson-so-uniquely-awful-at-pmqs/

[12C]

https://www.ft.com/content/85fc694c-9222-11e9-b7ea-60e35ef678d2

I recalled this article and Gove’s description of Johnson.

What is interesting is the role of the Oxford Union in conning the country that these gobshites are actually intelligent

[ljycb]

So you're happy with Johnson's performance then?

Nope, just enjoying how much Cpt_Reina’s posts are upsetting some of you.

[So… Howard Philips]

Nope, just enjoying how much Cpt_Reina’s posts are upsetting some of you.

Is anyone really upset though?

When in the real world Johnson and his cronies are messing up the country?

[bigbonedrawky]

Ignore Cpt_Reina, he's posting with an agenda that reflects negatively on Starmer because like the massive socialist he is he wants to push that the Tories are better at running the country than Labour so he ignores the polls that reflect on Labour at the moment.

Better than posting agenda driven sh*te for over 4 years though... Including two election cycles.

[Red-Soldier]

For me, it's clear that the currant UK regime has to be treated as a rogue government.  They are backed by Russians (just like other far-right groups), and they do not have the nations interests at heart.

[OOS]

Just remember some of the shite that got spouted after the GE. Labour needs two GE to win power, next GE is a write off ect...

What Starmer has done is remarkable in the current climate. Hes got people taking Labour serious again. Hes got a plan to win over real voters and constituencies, not rambling at every given opportunity and actually trying to understand and reconcile with the UK public. Labour need to continue what they are doing and ignore the professional super socialists on Twitter. 2024 is winnable, stay disciplined, dont get dragged into petty arguments especially around culture and don't fall for Tory traps.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Ignore Cpt_Reina, he's posting with an agenda that reflects negatively on Starmer because like the massive socialist he is he wants to push that the Tories are better at running the country than Labour so he ignores the polls that reflect on Labour at the moment.

Does seem the way that the most 'right on committed bestest leftist socialists' all seem to want the Tories to remain in power for eternity.

[Welshred]

Better than posting agenda driven sh*te for over 4 years though... Including two election cycles.

Pointing out that Corbyn was shite was hardly agenda driven, it was the truth! That's why he lost every single election he was leader for.

[TepidT2O]

Not sure why being agenda driven is a problem either way.  Aren’t we all?

[ljycb]

Not sure why being agenda driven is a problem either way.  Aren’t we all?

Yep, I certainly am.

[TepidT2O]

Yep, I certainly am.

Yeah, me too. 

I’m prepared to have my mind changed by evidence, but I have an idea of what we think is likely to work and is good.

I think people not being prepared to even consider their opinions or dismissing evidence out of hand is the issue.

[Cpt_Reina]

Does seem the way that the most 'right on committed bestest leftist socialists' all seem to want the Tories to remain in power for eternity.

Not at all.

Just think any other leader would be 20 points ahead of the worst government of our lifetime.

Right?

[Welshred]

I think he's done quite well to claw back the near 20 point deficit Corbyn left him with he took over to be honest

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Not at all.

Just think any other leader would be 20 points ahead of the worst government of our lifetime.

Right?

Well it's right that Corbyn left Labour a shambles and his actions since really haven't been helping the Party.

I've been quite impressed with Starmer and he's held the Government to account more than Corbyn ever seemed to.

He seems to have turned it around and hopefully the people of the UK will start to think about voting for Labour again.



I've spoken to a few of my friends that are very left (I'm actually pretty left but think of myself as a bit of a centrist - not because my views are centrist - but because I think that the very left and centrists parts of the Party need to get on for the good of the Party)

Some of my lefter-leaning friends disagree. That have said they think Starmer is a 'Tory'. They reckon there is 'no difference' between Labour under Starmer and the Tories. They reckon that he's 'worse than Blair'

When I pull them up over this and ask them why if Blair was 'the same as Tories' things improved in many ways when Labour were in power and why things got much worse in 2010 onwards when Labour were knocked from Power.

They tend to get a bit sniffy and/or angry. But seem massively angry with Starmer (or more likely pissed off that their cult leader was ousted.) We've agreed to stop arguing about it because I can't see us ever agreeing. I want the Tories out. We can worry about policy and other stuff once they are out - but Labour need to get them out as the country is getting worse by the day.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Not at all.

Just think any other leader would be 20 points ahead of the worst government of our lifetime.

Right?

You mean, like Corbyn was!? Give me a break.

[Cpt_Reina]

You mean, like Corbyn was!? Give me a break.

Never mentioned him. Much as I haven't since he left

I am simply waiting for Starmer to show out against the worst govt I've ever seen handling a pandemic in the most cack handed way they could do.

Should be easy wins

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Never mentioned him. Much as I haven't since he left

I am simply waiting for Starmer to show out against the worst govt I've ever seen handling a pandemic in the most cack handed way they could do.

Should be easy wins

You do know that Brexit is around the corner. All those gobshites are clearly skewing everything as they have been since 2016.

Doesn't help that Labour have been absolutely wiped out in Scotland either.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Never mentioned him. Much as I haven't since he left

I am simply waiting for Starmer to show out against the worst govt I've ever seen handling a pandemic in the most cack handed way they could do.

Should be easy wins

Hahahahah! But of course you did (by implication)!

Your own words:

Just think any other leader would be 20 points ahead of the worst government of our lifetime.

There was another leader (Corbyn) and he was far, far worse performing than Starmer. Indeed, it is precisely because of the reputational damage done to the Party by another leader that Starmer is not already "20 points ahead of the worst government of our lifetime". But give Starmer time. After all, Corbyn all but destroyed Labour over his 4.5 years as leader - this will not be fixed over night.

[oldfordie]

Not at all.

Just think any other leader would be 20 points ahead of the worst government of our lifetime.

Right?

The first  priority for Starmer was to get people listening to Labour again, you can't win over anyone when they have stopped listening, Corbyn preached to the converted, millions turned away and stopped listening to him.

[So… Howard Philips]

Shouldn't most of the recent posts be in the Andy Bell Labour Thread rather than clogging up this thread which is not meant to be a rerun of the Labourship leadership contest?

[ljycb]

Hahahahah! But of course you did (by implication)!

Your own words:There was another leader (Corbyn) and he was far, far worse performing than Starmer. Indeed, it is precisely because of the reputational damage done to the Party by another leader that Starmer is not already "20 points ahead of the worst government of our lifetime". But give Starmer time. After all, Corbyn all but destroyed Labour over his 4.5 years as leader - this will not be fixed over night.

You’re the person mentioning Corbyn, not Cpt_Reina.

[TheShanklyGates]

You’re the person mentioning Corbyn, not Cpt_Reina.

The whole "20 points ahead" thing is a Corbyn Twitter meme. Cpt_Reina knows exactly what he's doing.

[Jiminy Cricket]

You’re the person mentioning Corbyn, not Cpt_Reina.

Not at all.

Just think any other leader would be 20 points ahead of the worst government of our lifetime.

Right?

Cpt_Reina stated that, "any other leader would be 20 points ahead of the worst government of our lifetime". In actuality, there already has been 'another leader' up against this Government (and the inept Tory Government [before] this) - his name was Corbyn and he was total and serially shite. Reina's (and your) rhetoric are confounded by recent history and reality. So, you see, we do not need to imagine anything.

[edit]

[ljycb]

:duhCpt_Regina stated that, "any other leader would be 20 points ahead of the worst government of our lifetime". In actuality, there already has been 'another leader' up against this Government (and the inept Tory Government this) - his name was Corbyn and he was total and serially shite. Regina's (and your) rhetoric are confounded by recent history and reality. So, you see, we do not need to imagine anything.

Who’s Regina?

[Jiminy Cricket]

Who’s Regina?

I've corrected the misnomenclature. Is that all you have? I suggest that your past posts will require more extensive tidying up.

[ljycb]

I've corrected the misnomenclature. Is that all you have? I suggest that your past posts will require more extensive tidying up.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend mate.

[Nobby Reserve]

Well it's right that Corbyn left Labour a shambles and his actions since really haven't been helping the Party.

I've been quite impressed with Starmer and he's held the Government to account more than Corbyn ever seemed to.

He seems to have turned it around and hopefully the people of the UK will start to think about voting for Labour again.



I've spoken to a few of my friends that are very left (I'm actually pretty left but think of myself as a bit of a centrist - not because my views are centrist - but because I think that the very left and centrists parts of the Party need to get on for the good of the Party)

Some of my lefter-leaning friends disagree. That have said they think Starmer is a 'Tory'. They reckon there is 'no difference' between Labour under Starmer and the Tories. They reckon that he's 'worse than Blair'

When I pull them up over this and ask them why if Blair was 'the same as Tories' things improved in many ways when Labour were in power and why things got much worse in 2010 onwards when Labour were knocked from Power.

They tend to get a bit sniffy and/or angry. But seem massively angry with Starmer (or more likely pissed off that their cult leader was ousted.) We've agreed to stop arguing about it because I can't see us ever agreeing. I want the Tories out. We can worry about policy and other stuff once they are out - but Labour need to get them out as the country is getting worse by the day.

I consider myself mid-left 

I believe in a mixed economy with a strong private sector - but with essential utilities like water/electricity/gas provided by suppliers who are state owned and run on a not-for-profit basis. I believe in better workers' rights and strong trade unions. I want expanded public services provided free or subsidised and properly funded. I want the vast majority of taxation to be progressive (in the economic sense). I want there to be a massive focus to combat the endemic levels of tax dodging amongst the wealthy, especially the abuse of offshoring & trusts, and the tearing-down of the secrecy-walls in the BOTs/CDs.

Do I think a Starmer government would implement these? Sadly, no. But we've just had a leader who took the party leftwards and he made a pig's arse of things. As you've said, this government is destroying the country and laying the groundwork for more destruction, along with deregulation on a huge scale (ie, removing protections for workers, the environment, consumers). We need to get them out next election or they will cause more harm than that evil bitch The Thatcher did.

I voted Starmer to be leader even though I'd prefer the policies that someone like RLB would follow. I believed he would work to, if not unite a fractured party, then be inclusive of the substantial leftist wing. I've been disappointed in him in this respect. But I'll still vote for his party - which is something I didn't do for any NuLabour elections*


* the caveat being I am in a very safe Labour seat and was able to protest-vote without consequence

[Nobby Reserve]

Thought you couldn't despise these utter c*nts any more?

Guess again.

Grouse hunts and shooting get special exemption from ‘rule of six’
"People have criticised Westminster for the move suggesting that the Conservative Party – whose members include self-professed hunting fans – made the exemption to please the many donors they have from the sport’s organisations and supporters.  Shadow environment secretary Luke Pollard said: ‘Across the country, people are struggling to get COVID-19 tests anywhere near their homes. ‘But the Conservatives are distracted with trying to exempt the bloodsport passions of their big donors from coronavirus regulations. It shows where this government’s priorities really lie. It is clear there’s one rule for the cabinet and their mates and another for the rest of us.’"

https://metro.co.uk/2020/09/14/grouse-hunts-and-shooting-get-special-exemption-from-rule-of-six-13269362/

 

[Sammy5IsAlive]

I consider myself mid-left 

I believe in a mixed economy with a strong private sector - but with essential utilities like water/electricity/gas provided by suppliers who are state owned and run on a not-for-profit basis. I believe in better workers' rights and strong trade unions. I want expanded public services provided free or subsidised and properly funded. I want the vast majority of taxation to be progressive (in the economic sense). I want there to be a massive focus to combat the endemic levels of tax dodging amongst the wealthy, especially the abuse of offshoring & trusts, and the tearing-down of the secrecy-walls in the BOTs/CDs.

Do I think a Starmer government would implement these? Sadly, no. But we've just had a leader who took the party leftwards and he made a pig's arse of things. As you've said, this government is destroying the country and laying the groundwork for more destruction, along with deregulation on a huge scale (ie, removing protections for workers, the environment, consumers). We need to get them out next election or they will cause more harm than that evil bitch The Thatcher did.

I voted Starmer to be leader even though I'd prefer the policies that someone like RLB would follow. I believed he would work to, if not unite a fractured party, then be inclusive of the substantial leftist wing. I've been disappointed in him in this respect. But I'll still vote for his party - which is something I didn't do for any NuLabour elections*


* the caveat being I am in a very safe Labour seat and was able to protest-vote without consequence

Agree with a lot of the gist of that. I think it is very early to be calling where Labour under Starmer will be in economic policy terms when we get to the next election in 5 years time. The economy was already in a bad place long term even before you factor in Covid and Brexit. IMHO those problems will require more imaginative solutions than can be provided by 'old-school' socialist economics - although that is not mutually exclusive a lot of what you are talking about (on area of difference would be that I wouldn't be wasting energy (!) on trying to re-nationalise utilities when there are far more pressing issues to deal with).

I guess where you are on the political spectrum is relative - I imagine by American standards all of us on here are nigh on communists! From my perspective somebody who protest voted against Labour in 1997 (safe seat or not) is a very long way to the left of things by most standards. With all due respect I don't think it would be sensible for the party to be positioning itself to try and win back voters who didn't vote for them back then. 

[Sammy5IsAlive]

On a different note - if you subscribe to the view that public opinion follows the prompting of the papers Johnson is in trouble. Seems to be fast running out of allies.

The expected evisceration from John Crace in the Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/14/ed-miliband-revels-in-the-humiliation-of-boris-and-his-word-salad

But more interestingly perhaps...

Daily Mail article quoting Miliband (who was standing in for Starmer tonight) at length as well as various rebellious Tory figures
 https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8732707/Governments-controversial-Internal-Markets-bill-passes-Commons-hurdle.html

Telegraph sketch article headlined "From seven-stone weakling to strutting muscleman... it’s the incredible return of Ed Miliband:
During the crucial debate on Brexit, Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson looked on in bewilderment as the former Labour leader came out fighting"
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/09/14/seven-stone-weakling-strutting-muscleman-incredible-return-ed/   - article behind paywall

Times cartoon

[So… Howard Philips]

Well here's an upper class twit who won't be doing much wandering for a while;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-54161766

[Red-Soldier]

Well here's an upper class twit who won't be doing much wandering for a while;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-54161766

Nice to see an actual prison sentence, rather than just a suspended one.

[Zeb]

This is good from one of those who advised May to follow a path which Johnson later used to more obvious greater success, James Johnson. Sadly it's in the special segregated sane part of the Spectator.

Spoiler

Boris will regret a no-deal Brexit

Much has been said about the prospect of no deal over the past few days – the economics, arguments over sovereignty, the views of Conservative MPs, possible long-term gain, and the views of the voters. All will be important to the government’s final decision. Looking only at the voters, the established wisdom seems to be that a no deal course gives Boris his moment of facing down the EU, and that the former ‘Red Wall’ would welcome such a move. This, I think, is an incorrect assumption.

Twelve months ago, no deal may well have been welcomed by a sizeable proportion of voters. Brexit was the only show in town. The Conservatives held a towering thirty-point lead on the issue over Jeremy Corbyn. As frustration about the Brexit process grew and grew, anything to break the logjam was looking attractive. Swathes of the press were likely to be on board. There was also, clear in focus groups, a strong sense that voters were willing to give Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson and the Conservatives the benefit of the doubt.

The world has changed. Firstly, the issue has shrunk from the agenda during the pandemic. In October last year, 52 per cent named Brexit as the top issue facing the country – that is now six per cent. More than that, bringing it up in focus groups (including in seats the Conservatives gained in 2019) now prompts active derision and laughter, and bewilderment at the idea that Brexit would even be discussed as the pandemic grinds on.

This is partly because of the Conservative party’s own success in December 2019 and by delivering Britain’s exit from the European Union at the end of January – many believe Brexit really is ‘done’, or is very close to being so. Therefore, anger comes to the surface when there is a suggestion the government may focus time and energy on a no-deal Brexit during a potential second spike of the virus. In June, 68 per cent of voters agreed in a survey by Kekst CNC that the focus for the rest of the year should be on coronavirus and not Brexit.

Remember too, that the 2019 general election was not won through a Brexit culture war, but because enough voters did not want to hear about it anymore. The success of the ‘Get Brexit Done’ message has now changed the battleground from the one we saw a year ago to one where Brexit has receded from voters’ minds. It is unlikely a ‘Get Brexit Done Again’ message would work for anything beyond the short-term: a no-deal Brexit is the beginning of a process of making trade deals rather than the end, and Brexit is hardly going to disappear from the bulletins in that event.

For the harder line Brexit voters, there is little understanding of the reason for a showdown with the European Union now – the conflict over state aid, or why the UK is breaking international law, has not been messaged or explained by the Prime Minister. And, far from the situation a year ago, there is no sign that Leave voters will be aggrieved or betrayed by the existing deal, especially if it is the more distant FTA model the government is pursuing.

After months of declining poll ratings and the fallout of scandals such as the exam results debacle, much of the press – still key opinion influencers – now start from a default negative. What may have been painted in some newspapers as a moment of freedom for Britain will now be written up as incompetence. The public have also lost the benefit of the doubt and are likely to jump to the same conclusion – a no-deal Brexit would almost inevitably be pounced on for what goes wrong, especially if there are strong visual cues like lorry hold-ups and clogged borders. Even on Brexit, the public have lost some faith – the 30-point advantage from the start of the year has more than halved to 12 points.

The red wall is nervous, then, but so is another wing of Conservative support: middle-class Conservatives in the South who voted Remain, but stuck with Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson in December. These voters are in seats which Keir Starmer has half an eye on: the Chingfords, Swindons and Strouds. With Brexit off the table, the Conservatives are doing well with this group. While the Conservative vote share has declined overall since December, the latest YouGov poll has the party up one point with Remain voters. Focus groups reveal that so far this year these southern Conservatives have ‘rallied round the flag’ as the government faces off the pandemic. The voters most nervous about no deal were kept on board by the existence of Boris’ deal in December, but a lack of one could yet drive them away.

It appears that No. 10 still sees a hardline Brexit message as a winner. But, with this assumption, No. 10 is fighting the last battle. Because the government ‘got Brexit done’, the public have moved on from Brexit wars, which they were never much keen on in the first place. Instead, such a move risks fracturing Boris’ electoral coalition, angering the red wall, and opening up yet another charge of incompetence. Quite aside from falling into a trap and being painted as a Remainer, Keir Starmer’s desire to get on and leave with a deal is much closer to where the public are.

There will be other judgements of the upsides and downsides of a no-deal Brexit; policy should not always be a slave to the public. But looking in isolation at the public’s view and the Conservative party’s electoral future, it is difficult to see the case that it will be a positive. Some have said that a pursuit of no deal is 'populist'. If populism relies on popularity, charting a course for a no-deal Brexit is far from it.

[close]

Looking at the Tory party messaging recently, I think he's got a point.

[Jiminy Cricket]

This is good from one of those who advised May to follow a path which Johnson later used to more obvious greater success, James Johnson. Sadly it's in the special segregated sane part of the Spectator.

Looking at the Tory party messaging recently, I think he's got a point.

I've never subscribed to the idea that Brexiteers will continue to support Brexit after the UK comes out transition. Yes, some will. But many (probably the majority) will almost instantly turn around - with no sense of shame - and complain bitterly about what they voted for in a Referendum and two subsequent GEs. As soon as they are inconvenienced by empty shelves and job losses far worse than in our competitor countries, their views will flip 180 and they will flip out. Mark my words - they will be apoplectic. The Government attempting to blame COVID will not wash when every other country is managing to get by and the UK is in the toilet. Your average Brexiteer will just want things to go back to how they were. This is not what we voted for, they will scream.

[oldfordie]

I've never subscribed to the idea that Brexiteers will continue to support Brexit after the UK comes out transition. Yes, some will. But many (probably the majority) will almost instantly turn around - with no sense of shame - and complain bitterly about what they voted for in a Referendum and two subsequent GEs. As soon as they are inconvenienced by empty shelves and job losses far worse than in our competitor countries, their views will flip 180 and they will flip out. Mark my words - they will be apoplectic. The Government attempting to blame COVID will not wash when every other country is managing to get by and the UK is in the toilet. Your average Brexiteer will just want things to go back to how they were. This is not what we voted for, they will scream.

That's how I feel, there will be some who will still be blaming the EU but the majority will just want the chaos to go away, they will expect the government to make it go away, the governments voice won't be the only voice the public hear, many companies will be livid telling us they said all this would happen and the government never helped us to over come these problems.
I went to pick up my repeat prescription today, I won't go into any details but I was told it won't be available till next month at the earliest. I should have picked it up 10 days ago but ive slowly built up a stockpile of 6 weeks because of Brexit. Ive got enough for over a month any longer and I will start feeling ill. if Brexit causes this type of problem which may well happen as stockpiles always run down there will be millions of people furious with the Tories. this was all predicted and the Tories said it was all project fear so no excuses.

[No666]

I've never subscribed to the idea that Brexiteers will continue to support Brexit after the UK comes out transition. Yes, some will. But many (probably the majority) will almost instantly turn around - with no sense of shame - and complain bitterly about what they voted for in a Referendum and two subsequent GEs. As soon as they are inconvenienced by empty shelves and job losses far worse than in our competitor countries, their views will flip 180 and they will flip out. Mark my words - they will be apoplectic. The Government attempting to blame COVID will not wash when every other country is managing to get by and the UK is in the toilet. Your average Brexiteer will just want things to go back to how they were. This is not what we voted for, they will scream.

Very true. And Covid will make this sense of aggrievance worse; rather than providing an excuse, it will exacerbate the frustration and anger.

[Snail]

Very true. And Covid will make this sense of aggrievance worse; rather than providing an excuse, it will exacerbate the frustration and anger.

Which is why I worry that rather than going back to Labour, many will head in the opposite direction.

[Jiminy Cricket]

The way I look at it is this: there is huge overlap between Brexiteers* and assorted COVID-deniers. Your average COVID-denier cannot even tolerate wearing a mask when they enter a shop. How do we expect them to react when they enter the shop and there is no food?

* I include your 'bored', just get on with it types.

[Nobby Reserve]

The way I look at it is this: there is huge overlap between Brexiteers* and assorted COVID-deniers. Your average COVID-denier cannot even tolerate wearing a mask when they enter a shop. How do we expect them to react when they enter the shop and there is no food?

* I include your 'bored', just get on with it types.

To add another circle to the Venn Diagram, you can intersect one entitled Climate Change, too.