Topic: Injury (and absence) related chat (so the news is kept in the other thread)

[redbyrdz]

I'm not blaming our coaches or staff if this is the case, because I'm sure they have their reasons and I think there's simply a huge degree of bad luck with the number of injuries. But at the same time I have been wondering myself if there's something in what you're saying. The players look unbelievably leggy and sluggish, like they've been overtrained.

And while there were obviously a lot of other factors (ridiculous injury list, with Matip being the straw that broke the camel's back, plus no crowds), I remember our form going to absolute pieces in late December/early January 2020-21 after we'd finally had a free 7 or 8 days to train. Having been top on boxing day, we came back looking absolutely shattered after a break in the games.

The pay off is hopefully more endurance towards the end of the season, but not sure if that'll do much good if we drop too many points early on.

To be fair, even though we did look knackered towards the end of the season, we sid pretry well considering the amount of games and our schedule. A less fit squad would have likely fared far worse.

[telekon]

The pay off is hopefully more endurance towards the end of the season, but not sure if that'll do much good if we drop too many points early on.

To be fair, even though we did look knackered towards the end of the season, we sid pretry well considering the amount of games and our schedule. A less fit squad would have likely fared far worse.

Is that how it works though? During Brendan's reign the ideology was to start off a bit slow in order to hit peak physical levels in early spring and ride that wave until May. The opposite, what may be the idea now, is to go quite intense early, but that would mean full capacity early in the season and then some stagnation at the end.

Having said that, last season we played a gazillion games and a lot of players were okay and some excelling. And what do I know, I know fuck all about sports science and fitness. 

[redbyrdz]

Is that how it works though? During Brendan's reign the ideology was to start off a bit slow in order to hit peak physical levels in early spring and ride that wave until May. The opposite, what may be the idea now, is to go quite intense early, but that would mean full capacity early in the season and then some stagnation at the end.

Having said that, last season we played a gazillion games and a lot of players were okay and some excelling. And what do I know, I know fuck all about sports science and fitness. 

I think the idea is that it's too difficult to build fitness during the season, especially when competing in four competitions. You spend all the time playing and recovering from matches, and training is probably more about dealing with specific opponents or working through problems, and not fitness. So the only time to do actual hard sessions is in pre-season. After that, you'll hope the matches do it, but you have little control over that.

For example, you can't do too much strength work in the gym, because you'll need to fresh and recovered for a match 2 days later. But you can't really do the same type of strength work with just playing, you need to do it in the gym.

[telekon]

For example, you can't do too much strength work in the gym, because you'll need to fresh and recovered for a match 2 days later. But you can't really do the same type of strength work with just playing, you need to do it in the gym.

That's what I'm thinking in FM as well. 

[newterp]

If you're going to post things like this at least say where you got it from. A number of people have asked where you have heard this and you haven't responded. This is the first time I've heard that he has done his ACL.

I think the complete silence around the injury is causing the speculation that it's a bad one.

[bobadicious]

our style also doesn't help. If we can rest with the ball and win with less intensity it will be easier.

Not going a goal behind in every game would help.

[SamLad]

I think the complete silence around the injury is causing the speculation that it's a bad one.

in the NHL there's a kind of tradition that an injury to a key player (esp during the playoffs) will only get a vague public explanation eg "lower body injury" with zero specifics.  the thinking is: don't give the hard men on oppo teams a chance to target body checks on a player's weak point.

in the past couple of weeks our reluctance to be opnen about even the existence of small injuries is reminding me of that.

[SamLad]

Not going a goal behind in every game would help.

absolutely.  it's getting ridiculous, and apart from the obvious, it's adding to our players' mental tiredeness as well.

[Dazzer23]

I think the complete silence around the injury is causing the speculation that it's a bad one.

My Mrs follows some of the players on Instagram, and at the time there were a couple of strange/cryptic posts that might suggest it was a Long term one.

Please don't take this as Gospel that it is. It was just the impression I got when she showed me them.

[Samie]

Konate, Pearce said unlikely before the first international break which is in September. 

[amir87]

Konate, Pearce said unlikely before the first international break which is in September. 

Clearly an ACL with a hint of MCL then.

[killer-heels]

Some of the reasoning and questions about the backroom staff is odd. Just look at the players who are injured or who have been injured, thats generally the answer. We have too many players made of glass.

[MPowerYNWA]

Thiago, Jones, Bobby, Jota, Matip and Ox - they will always struggle with injuries unfortunately.

[killer-heels]

Thiago, Jones, Bobby, Jota, Matip and Ox - they will always struggle with injuries unfortunately.

Jota isnt too bad.

[newterp]

Jota isnt too bad.

big injury his first season - played in a dead rubber; injury last season when he was flying before the CC final - never quite hit the heights; injured to start this season - likely to miss 3-4 games.

[killer-heels]

big injury his first season - played in a dead rubber; injury last season when he was flying before the CC final - never quite hit the heights; injured to start this season - likely to miss 3-4 games.

Means he isnt a Mane or Salah but doesnt make him injury prone.

[Believe]

big injury his first season - played in a dead rubber; injury last season when he was flying before the CC final - never quite hit the heights; injured to start this season - likely to miss 3-4 games.

Being hacked into oblivion vs. Midtjylland and then played in a pointless (actually, completely counterproductive!) international tournament after a 55 game season and suffering a muscle issue isn't being injury prone!

Honestly, the more I think about the Nations League the angrier I get 

[decosabute]

Being hacked into oblivion vs. Midtjylland and then played in a pointless (actually, completely counterproductive!) international tournament after a 55 game season and suffering a muscle issue isn't being injury prone!

Honestly, the more I think about the Nations League the angrier I get 

There's always a lot of the fanbase rationalising our injuries in order to make out players aren't injury prone. I've heard this loads with Joe Gomez in particular - "well, it was an impact injury - just bad luck", "it was a freak accident on international duty, what can you do?". But when a player always misses significant spells in every season, then - bad luck or not - there's a body of evidence to say that player is injury prone. I hope Jota has simply been unlucky so far, but I'd have my doubts this is something that'll just stop happening with him.

[MPowerYNWA]

There's always a lot of the fanbase rationalising our injuries in order to make out players aren't injury prone. I've heard this loads with Joe Gomez in particular - "well, it was an impact injury - just bad luck", "it was a freak accident on international duty, what can you do?". But when a player always misses significant spells in every season, then - bad luck or not - there's a body of evidence to say that player is injury prone. I hope Jota has simply been unlucky so far, but I'd have my doubts this is something that'll just stop happening with him.

Spot on with my assessment.

My theory is some players develop structural imbalances when they have an injury, whereas others don’t. This imbalance creates follow on issues / injuries. Hard for physios to fix, as we’re talking about athletes who are often physically (football wise) at their genetic maximum.

[Ghost Town]

Means he isnt a Mane or Salah but doesnt make him injury prone.

This is an important point I think. There's a lot of guff spoken now by fans about 'injury-proneness', most of it reactive. Frustrations being turned into 'facts'.

Most players will get injured from time to time and the nature of the injury IS important when assessing whether a player is 'injury-prone' or not.

I'd say very few of our players are truly injury-prone. And also fewer still had any such history before coming here, which also means that any supoosedly 'non-injury-prone' player we buy could also end up having lots of injuries. Keita, for example, has no particular history of injuries before coming here. Yet once here he has had a lot of bad luck with injuries. The same could happen with any other player. There are no guarantees. The panacea mentality is frought with counter-indications.
 
The really noteworthy thing is that there are some players who hardly ever seem to be injured, such as Salah and Mane and Gini. That's the aberration here and we have benefited from that as much as we have suffered from a few injury prone players.

[killer-heels]

Read that City went for a less intense pre-season whilst we have gone in much harder. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

[Fromola]

Read that City went for a less intense pre-season whilst we have gone in much harder. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Difference is City play most games on auto pilot and just keep the ball all game. We usually always have to go flat out for 90 minutes to get a result which is a lot more exerting.

[Big Dirk]

Thiago, Jones, Bobby, Jota, Matip and Ox - they will always struggle with injuries unfortunately.

You've left the worst of the lot out…Keita! 

[Ghost Town]

You've left the worst of the lot out…Keita! 

Is he the worst of the lot? I know lots of people have decided that he is. But what are the facts?

Last season he was pretty much fit all the way through, and in previous seasons as well there have been long periods when he's been fit but not always used.

It's very easy to give a dog a bad name but pro rata has he been injured more often, and for longer, than all the other players?

Who is the "worst of the lot"? I'm sure there are stats sites that record this kind of info, if anyone who uses them can check?

[ep1987]

Read that City went for a less intense pre-season whilst we have gone in much harder. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

It already has. We won the Community Shield, but now have lots of injuries and two points. City are top of the league.

We don't actually know how true the intensity premise is; but any negative effects of a slow ramp up are now in the rearview mirror as there is sufficient time for City to build the fitness required for the two games per week which kick in at the very end of August.

[killer-heels]

It already has. We won the Community Shield, but now have lots of injuries and two points. City are top of the league.

We don't actually know how true the intensity premise is; but any negative effects of a slow ramp up are now in the rearview mirror as there is sufficient time for City to build the fitness required for the two games per week which kick in at the very end of August.

We dont really know i guess because we are just speculating and trying to make sense of it. I think Ljinders said wanted to be ready for the Charity Shield and I wonder if it was because we felt we needed to get in an early blow and start well. But then we also claimed we were not ready.

The thing is though we can talk about these things but the reality is that generally the players with bad injury records are the ones that are injured. The likes of Keita, Thiago, Gomez, Henderson and even Matip have had chequered injury histories so is it a surprise they are out? I know people will claim the same for Jota and Konate but both of those were kind of unlucky.

Either way I fully expect our plan to come good that we have a good season but the question is will it be too little too late.

[SamLad]

Jota and Konate but both of those were kind of unlucky.

unlucky in what way?  they weren't impact injuries, IIRC.

[Caston]

Keita and Firmino back in training.

Some twitter accounts saying Henderson not pictured in training today.

[MindGuerrillas]

unlucky in what way?  they weren't impact injuries, IIRC.

Jota's wasn't but Konate had his knee bent sideways in a tackle against Strasbourg.

[TepidT2O]

Matip is back in training too…

(Not fully with the squad though)

[SamLad]

Jota's wasn't but Konate had his knee bent sideways in a tackle against Strasbourg.

ah, ok thanks.

[newterp]

Looks like Jota is pushed now til the end of the month.

That's a longer than the initial time frame by several weeks.

[JasonF]

Looks like Jota is pushed now til the end of the month.

That's a longer than the initial time frame by several weeks.

I'd imagine we're being extra careful with the injury being a reoccurace of the previous injury he came back from international duty with. I assume Jota must have felt OK the last time he resumed training so maybe we're being cautious and adding a little extra time on to what it'd usually take.

[newterp]

firmino fit
keita ready
jota/jones - close - not yet.

[mrantarctica]

Spot on with my assessment.

My theory is some players develop structural imbalances when they have an injury, whereas others don’t. This imbalance creates follow on issues / injuries. Hard for physios to fix, as we’re talking about athletes who are often physically (football wise) at their genetic maximum.

 

This isn't just your theory, this is one of the basic premises of injury and rehabilitation. Very few parts of the body work in isolation. You get an injury here, then it's going to affect how load/stress is distributed elsewhere and these biomechanics factors play a role in further injuries.

Not sure what you mean by athletes being at their genetic maximum. Everyone is at their genetic maximum. You don't acquire more genes in your lifetime in the strictest sense (genetic material does change however). Physios help rehabilitate athletes from certain injuries based on evidence and best practice guidelines. The reality is that the more serious injuries you have, the more likely you will have persistent problems down the line.

[TepidT2O]

This isn't just your theory, this is one of the basic premises of injury and rehabilitation. Very few parts of the body work in isolation. You get an injury here, then it's going to affect how load/stress is distributed elsewhere and these biomechanics factors play a role in further injuries.

Not sure what you mean by athletes being at their genetic maximum. Everyone is at their genetic maximum. You don't acquire more genes in your lifetime in the strictest sense (genetic material does change however). Physios help rehabilitate athletes from certain injuries based on evidence and best practice guidelines. The reality is that the more serious injuries you have, the more likely you will have persistent problems down the line.

If this is true, I’m even more fucked than I realised.

[TepidT2O]

Matip out for 3-4 weeks now grrr….

[tubby]

Just have to hope Joe doesn't pick up any injuries now.

[killer-heels]

Matip out for 3-4 weeks now grrr….

Completely fucking shit that. Reckon we will see Phillips a decent amount now.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Completely fucking shit that. Reckon we will see Phillips a decent amount now.

I'd prefer Sepp to be honest.