Author Topic: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD  (Read 3113375 times)

Online DelTrotter

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35280 on: August 8, 2022, 10:39:18 am »
I adore Klopp but for me this is his Achilles heel. Once again we're going into a season with a weak area which could still be rectified. We did the same with the CB position a couple of years ago and when we were actually forced to invest in Diaz early last January we almost went on and won almost everything.

Why are we leaving things to chance when we know that half of our midfield options are either injury prone or won't be here next season? It promises to be another season of "what could have been?" instead of a season were we dominate and it's a pity. For me only Thiago and Fabinho are absolute starters when everyone is fit. That third midfield spot is up for grabs and I don't think that's good enough for a team of our level.

Yep, the other spot alongside them two is I'd say the weakest position in the team so it's disappointing we're seemingly not improving it this window. (weak being still really good for us mind given our standard but could defo be improved!). Taking in to account Thiago will probably miss a 3rd or half the season as well it just makes it even worse.

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35281 on: August 8, 2022, 10:39:28 am »
Don't reply to this, its just a divisive ruse to get you to criticise Klopp, so all the superfans can pile up on you.

Class act!

It's not a ruse.

I've read on here the last few days that it'd be 'madness' not to buy a midfielder this summer. That we've left ourselves a lot to do next summer with regards to midfield recruitment. That not having bought a midfielder this summer  'could be the reason we don't win the league'.

I've some sympathy for that opinion if I'm honest. Though I'm not irritated by to the degree that some are. Surely if you are that irritated then you must think someone, somewhere isn't doing their job properly.

The questions I'd love people to answer are:

1) With the relatively obvious potential issues with our midfield (i.e. durability of Thiago and Keita plus age profile of others), why haven't we bought one yet this summer?

2) If we don't buy a midfielder this summer, do you think our chances for success are marginally impacted or significantly impacted?

3) Who do you think is responsible for the current make-up of midfield (i.e, the 8 options we have) and the succession planning (e.g. recruitment and youth development)?

The reason I'm asking those questions is not to call people out. It's about thinking about why we may not have bought a midfielder so far. If a load of divvy's on the internet (including me) can see an issue, then surely the club can. So if they are not moving for a midfielder then why? and who is making that call?

I'm not looking to call people out. I'm asking for people to be honest with who is making the decisions here and to think about why we might be going down the road we have so far.

We can all go round in circles shouting about age profile, Thiago being a crock (amongst others) but it doesn't really lead to much debate. I think virtually everyone is in agreement about this. The difference is how much you think it is a big issue or a small issue. The debate is really why we haven't signed a midfielder so far and whether you agree with the person who is making that decision. A lot of people aren't asking that question to themselves.
« Last Edit: August 8, 2022, 10:42:44 am by Jookie »
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Offline Fromola

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35282 on: August 8, 2022, 10:41:00 am »
I adore Klopp but for me this is his Achilles heel. Once again we're going into a season with a weak area which could still be rectified. We did the same with the CB position a couple of years ago and when we were actually forced to invest in Diaz early last January we almost went on and won almost everything.

Why are we leaving things to chance when we know that half of our midfield options are either injury prone or won't be here next season? It promises to be another season of "what could have been?" instead of a season were we dominate and it's a pity. For me only Thiago and Fabinho are absolute starters when everyone is fit. That third midfield spot is up for grabs and I don't think that's good enough for a team of our level.

You'd like more of a 'hope for the best, prepare for the worst' strategy going into seasons rather than take such risks. Some things are unfortunate and you can't do anything about but if there's a clear weakness then it always leaves things open to chance.

Particularly when we're well aware of the stakes with what it takes to win the league now. You can't afford anything to go wrong.
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Offline DonkeyWan

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35283 on: August 8, 2022, 10:41:58 am »
Don't reply to this, its just a divisive ruse to get you to criticise Klopp, so all the superfans can pile up on you.

Class act!

"What's that? Are you losing an argument? Are you struggling to see off hordes of rational posters asking pointed questions about your footballing nous? Well, fear no more, just pull on your big boy superfan pants and DEPLOY THE KLOPP SHIELD (tm)! This multi purpose tool will bring all debate to a screeching halt as you, the superfan, smugly hides behind your morality banner, happily interpreting every pronounciation from the manager as if written on stone and brought down from Mount Sinai. The KLOPP SHIELD (tm) can be used to bash your opponents into submission, as you repeatedly chant 'unbeliever', smiting those that would deign to ask questions like 'why haven't we replaced midfielders we have sold?' or 'can we really depend on a  36 year old to win the league?' The online equivalent of farting in a packed lift, the KLOPP SHIELD (tm) comes at the very reasonable price of your sanity, and the sanity of those who would engage with you in discussion... in an online forum... on a thread dedicated to transfers..."
« Last Edit: August 8, 2022, 10:43:46 am by DonkeyWan »
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Offline lollysportswasher

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35284 on: August 8, 2022, 10:43:11 am »
If funds and wage weren't a problem, De Jong is exactly the type of player that we should be after. Dutch, understands VVD and world class proven player can attack and defend as well. Shame his wage are gonna be so high.

Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35285 on: August 8, 2022, 10:43:44 am »
I don't think it's a question of budget to be honest cause the money was there for Tchoumeni. Waiting for a target that we hope to get but might not get is not exactly a great recipe for success. Especially when looking back most of our 2nd/3rd targets for a position turned out to be 10x better than the first choice.

Also bearing in mind that we might need 2/3 midfielders next year.

Where is the evidence the budget is there though? The money was there for Tchouameni before we signed Nunez. Based on how we’ve operated in the past it makes far more sense to assume we simply can’t spend the huge money we’d need for a big midfielder at this time. Our wage bill is massive and hasn’t really decreased this summer and we simply don’t spend way more than we get back. It is not a criticism but I don’t believe it is entirely accurate to say Klopp is simply waiting. There probably is an element of that but it is likely because the money we could spend isn’t enough to get somebody who changes the picture and therefore it makes sense to put it towards one when we can.

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35286 on: August 8, 2022, 10:44:04 am »
He's working on a relatively small budget compared to others. If he had unlimited money like Pep you think he'd take risks like this?

I don't think anyone here thinks we can't afford to sign one midfielder. I think Klopp is wedded to the idea of having a tight nit small group of players and putting faith in youth when forced into it.

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Offline classycarra

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35287 on: August 8, 2022, 10:45:43 am »
Same arguments from the last 10 transfer windows.

Klopp doesn't do stop gaps.
What? Of course he does. Literallly just sold Ben Davies, a stop gap that was never even used once. Lonergan was allowed go as a free agent after  a year of zero appearances. Steven Caulker, brought in on loand, made 3 appearances.
Agreed. Said the same that this cliche and the word stop gap just don't apply. Apart from the examples already given, there's also Minamino and Ragnar Klavan who both fit the description (and I personally wouldn't call them stop gaps, to diminish their performances - I enjoyed both even if it was clear they wouldn't stay for long or become mainstays).

Offline DonkeyWan

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35288 on: August 8, 2022, 10:47:06 am »
Where is the evidence the budget is there though? The money was there for Tchouameni before we signed Nunez. Based on how we’ve operated in the past it makes far more sense to assume we simply can’t spend the huge money we’d need for a big midfielder at this time. Our wage bill is massive and hasn’t really decreased this summer and we simply don’t spend way more than we get back. It is not a criticism but I don’t believe it is entirely accurate to say Klopp is simply waiting. There probably is an element of that but it is likely because the money we could spend isn’t enough to get somebody who changes the picture and therefore it makes sense to put it towards one when we can.
The last set of accounts showed LFC were richer than they had ever been before, the wage bill had come down, and while new contracts were signed, a number of big earners were shifted off the books this summer, offsetting that. Added to that, the next set of accounts will be even better (because of the success of last season) and faily soon the stand extension will add another £40-50 million to the books. The Deloitte money league (not great I know, but still) has LFC pretty much even with United in terms of revenue and earnings.
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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35289 on: August 8, 2022, 10:47:55 am »
I don't think anyone here thinks we can't afford to sign one midfielder. I think Klopp is wedded to the idea of having a tight nit small group of players and putting faith in youth when forced into it.

"I don't like it, but I'll have to go along with it."

We can afford a midfielder if we really wanted one. Would probably mean Bellingham isn't an option next summer though. There's no one we'll be selling for high amounts so that's our options imo.
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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35290 on: August 8, 2022, 10:49:47 am »
We only  need to fall 4/5 points  behind  city  and going by the past 5 seasons its over.
The season we won it we got in front of them.

If Klopp doesn't buy a midfielder he's gambling and I think he'll lose. Still, second is  good, these days.

Offline pathetic

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35291 on: August 8, 2022, 10:49:50 am »
Where is the evidence the budget is there though? The money was there for Tchouameni before we signed Nunez. Based on how we’ve operated in the past it makes far more sense to assume we simply can’t spend the huge money we’d need for a big midfielder at this time. Our wage bill is massive and hasn’t really decreased this summer and we simply don’t spend way more than we get back. It is not a criticism but I don’t believe it is entirely accurate to say Klopp is simply waiting. There probably is an element of that but it is likely because the money we could spend isn’t enough to get somebody who changes the picture and therefore it makes sense to put it towards one when we can.

Then why not say so? Say it how it really is? I would accept it as I know we're not cheaters like City and we can't compete to that extent. Then again we're letting three assets which could get us 70 million easy this summer leave on a free next summer. Not even City, with their unlimited funds, do that, as they've sold two main players this summer to not let them run down their contract.

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35292 on: August 8, 2022, 10:50:54 am »
The last set of accounts showed LFC were richer than they had ever been before, the wage bill had come down, and while new contracts were signed, a number of big earners were shifted off the books this summer, offsetting that. Added to that, the next set of accounts will be even better (because of the success of last season) and faily soon the stand extension will add another £40-50 million to the books. The Deloitte money league (not great I know, but still) has LFC pretty much even with United in terms of revenue and earnings.

I think you’re confusing the money being there and the budget being there. Look at how we’ve operated pretty much forever since Klopp has been here. Transfer fees paid pretty much run parallel to transfer fees received at worst. Similar this summer. If somebody significant in midfield had left we’d have bought, I’m pretty sure on that but they haven’t so we will wait until next summer.

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35293 on: August 8, 2022, 10:52:25 am »
Agreed. Said the same that this cliche and the word stop gap just don't apply. Apart from the examples already given, there's also Minamino and Ragnar Klavan who both fit the description (and I personally wouldn't call them stop gaps, to diminish their performances - I enjoyed both even if it was clear they wouldn't stay for long or become mainstays).
I find the argument mental to say the least. Man City bought Ake and Phillips, two players that will hardly get a game all season, but are still there when needed. Apparently stop gaps are good enough for Guardiola. The notion that young players need a road made for them into the first team is also wrong-headed, how can they improve without competition? Imagine telling Curtis, 'no need to improve, we will just take out the mid ranks, you can play as you please as we don't believe in squad competition, you are guaranteed a game.' No one seemed to care about making a road for Elliott when they brought in Jota, Carvalho, Nunez etc. And he is still getting games and looking good. The whole idea of 'save the youths for jam tomorrow' is reminiscent of Keynes quote "He does not love his cat, but his cat's kittens; nor, in truth, the kittens, but only the kittens' kittens, and so on forward forever to the end of cat-dom."
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35294 on: August 8, 2022, 10:53:47 am »
Then why not say so? Say it how it really is? I would accept it as I know we're not cheaters like City and we can't compete to that extent. Then again we're letting three assets which could get us 70 million easy this summer leave on a free next summer. Not even City, with their unlimited funds, do that, as they've sold two main players this summer to not let them run down their contract.

Who would that be?


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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35295 on: August 8, 2022, 10:54:58 am »
Who would that be?



Firmino, Ox, Keita

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35296 on: August 8, 2022, 11:00:40 am »
We also regularly buy players who arent immediate first team players but may become that or if not will play important squad roles or could grow into first eleven players (Jota, Carvalho, Tsimikas, Konate) .. and many of our transfers werent first choice at the time
There's an odd idea in the LFC fan base (generated through the Van Dijk saga and mysticism around our recruitment) that it has to be 'THE ONE' or we don't do business and we wait.. its not born out by events

I agree that our recruitment isn't always about waiting for one player. That is a policy sometimes but the not even close to every time.

What I think is clear is that we  may have a small pool of targets for each position. So even if we don't get our 1st choice then going to 2nd or 3rd choice isn't a massive drop off. This is all with the caveat that we walk away from transfers if the prices doesn't fit (wages and fee).

What I would say is unusual is for us to buy a player where it seems obvious they are only ever likely to be a squad option. In the examples you highlighted  - Jota, Carvalho, Tsimikas, Konate -  I think for 3 of those you can see how they were bought at an age where they could develop into a regular 1st team player. You can also see the progression to that 1st team regular status, given the age profile of the player they are replacing -  Jota for Firmino and Konate for Matip/VvD are the most obvious ones.

I actually think Tsimikas is a bit of an exception when it comes to our recruitment. Given the age profile and stature of Robertson in the team, it's hard to view Tsimikas as someone who was bought with a clear pathway into a 1st team regular starter within 2-3 years. Robertson was only 26 when Tsimikas was bought and there is about 26 months difference in age. Tsimikas felt like he was purely bought for squad depth. Whereas others are bought for depth but with what looks to be a clearer path to replacing a current (ageing) 1st team player in the next 2 years.

I don't think we do the Tsmikas example very often. Particularly not outside extreme situations (Ben Davies), 3rd/4th choice goalkeepers (Lonergan, Manninger) or young prospects (where I think the runway for regular 1st team games is longer). I think there's only Minamino as another recent example that fits into that category - squad depth with only a very small chance of being a nailed on 1st team starter in 2 years. I think Minamino was quite an opportunistic signing aswell.
 
Looking at our previous transfer strategy and the current midfield situation, it's difficult to know exactly what the club's thinking is. What is probably likely is that they have or had a pool of midfield targets for this summer. It's likely that Tchouamnei and Bellingham were on that list. There could well be others. Maybe not available. Maybe not keen to join. Or maybe valued by their current clubs at a higher value than what we think they are worth.

What I would say is that we've shown in the past that, in the majority of cases, we'd rather wait if we can't buy a player we want at a price we deem as reasonable. That could be 1 single target, though I suspect it's a pool of targets in general. I reckon we regards to midfield this summer we, for whatever reason, can't get one of our targets. The club's philosophy around recruitment is not to then compromise and purchase players from outside that pool of players who've been identified. Small incremental increases in quality for squad depth is not the way we have gone under Klopp. Therefore, even though there is probably a host of midfielders available better than AOC, I don't think the Klopp would move for any of them if they didn't view them as a potential long term successor to one of the current older midfielders. That would be my guess based on our approach so far.
« Last Edit: August 8, 2022, 11:03:41 am by Jookie »
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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35297 on: August 8, 2022, 11:10:29 am »
Firmino, Ox, Keita

Not sure we'd easily make £70m for those three.

Firmino has made it clear he wants to stay in any case, and we're trying to agree a contract extension with Keita, so it's not as though we want the three of them to go this summer. And we have sold Mane rather than let him go for nothing after he'd made it clear he wanted out, so it's not as though we're cutting off our nose to spite our face and refusing to sell players who will leave for free next summer. But if the interest from elsewhere and the willingness of a player to leave isn't there, there's not much we can do - we'd have likely sold Oxlade-Chamberlain if someone had made us an offer, but no one did.

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35298 on: August 8, 2022, 11:13:48 am »
Losing Keita would not be good and it’s surprising people are advocating it or indifferent to it. You can make a pretty strong case that after Thiago he was our best midfielder across last season. He’s in prime age and at a talent level that’s very hard / expensive to replace

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35299 on: August 8, 2022, 11:16:32 am »
"What's that? Are you losing an argument? Are you struggling to see off hordes of rational posters asking pointed questions about your footballing nous? Well, fear no more, just pull on your big boy superfan pants and DEPLOY THE KLOPP SHIELD (tm)! This multi purpose tool will bring all debate to a screeching halt as you, the superfan, smugly hides behind your morality banner, happily interpreting every pronounciation from the manager as if written on stone and brought down from Mount Sinai. The KLOPP SHIELD (tm) can be used to bash your opponents into submission, as you repeatedly chant 'unbeliever', smiting those that would deign to ask questions like 'why haven't we replaced midfielders we have sold?' or 'can we really depend on a  36 year old to win the league?' The online equivalent of farting in a packed lift, the KLOPP SHIELD (tm) comes at the very reasonable price of your sanity, and the sanity of those who would engage with you in discussion... in an online forum... on a thread dedicated to transfers..."

Ha ha. Touched a nerve have I?

All I've done is asked the question  to those very irritated about a lack fo midfield signing to ask themselves why we have bought a midfielder yet and who is making that decision?

No-one has really answered that but continued to shout about the madness of not signing midfielder.

I'll leave it at that though. You, in particularly, clearly don't have the capacity to take wider view or have a debate. By asking some questions I thought I'd open up that debate beyond the continued same thing being repeated again and again. Your response above clearly indicates you don't want a a debate or have even really read my posts.

Like I've said previously, I'd have bought a midfielder this summer. I'm not even debating that or arguing that. I'm asking the question why people think we haven't and who is making that decision (that may not even by Klopp in some people's eyes).
« Last Edit: August 8, 2022, 11:23:20 am by Jookie »
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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35300 on: August 8, 2022, 11:16:34 am »
I don't care if we get a mid or not. If we need one and get one I'll be happyy that it is the right player. If we need one and don't, I'll be content that the top bods know we need one and are simply waiting for the right player.

After the Utd game I heard loads of gnashing of teeth about how they NEED someone in X position and if that player isn't going to be Y player then they should move on, but there doesn't appear to be a plan B.

I look at it that Ten Haag is (he believes) there for the long haul, to properly overhaul the playing side of the club and that all the players they might want might be unavailable at the moment and so rather than continue with their ridiculous scattergun transfer policy of the last 5-10 years, Rhombus head would rather wait for the RIGHT players instead, rather than get stop-gaps or wrong players who they then cannot shift when the right players become available.

Why am I talking UTD? Because that way of doing transfers has been at our core since Klopp arrived. We took our time and got the RIGHT players (not always 1st choice, but no 'stop-gaps'). It is clearly the right way to go about it.

I know everyone wants everything NOW but that's not really how dynasty building works.

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35301 on: August 8, 2022, 11:20:52 am »
"What's that? Are you losing an argument? Are you struggling to see off hordes of rational posters asking pointed questions about your footballing nous? Well, fear no more, just pull on your big boy superfan pants and DEPLOY THE KLOPP SHIELD (tm)! This multi purpose tool will bring all debate to a screeching halt as you, the superfan, smugly hides behind your morality banner, happily interpreting every pronounciation from the manager as if written on stone and brought down from Mount Sinai. The KLOPP SHIELD (tm) can be used to bash your opponents into submission, as you repeatedly chant 'unbeliever', smiting those that would deign to ask questions like 'why haven't we replaced midfielders we have sold?' or 'can we really depend on a  36 year old to win the league?' The online equivalent of farting in a packed lift, the KLOPP SHIELD (tm) comes at the very reasonable price of your sanity, and the sanity of those who would engage with you in discussion... in an online forum... on a thread dedicated to transfers..."

You seem a little touchy about that :D

You're literally arguing with people who also would like us to sign a midfielder. The question about who the more vociferous critics should aim their rage at is a pretty fair one, whether you like it or not. Myself, I'm in that boring old position of 'I trust the manager and the recruitment team implicitly so whatever they decide to do I'm fine with'.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35302 on: August 8, 2022, 11:22:13 am »
Losing Keita would not be good and it’s surprising people are advocating it or indifferent to it. You can make a pretty strong case that after Thiago he was our best midfielder across last season. He’s in prime age and at a talent level that’s very hard / expensive to replace


I'd keep him since he's got quality and think there are signs of him improving around fitness and availability.

The issue is that over 4 seasons he's played ~6000 minutes combined over 4 seasons. Bear in mind that most midfielders at elite clubs play more than 3000 minutes per season if they are in the 1st 3 or 4 choices. City had 4 CMs who played over 3000 minutes last season. Rodri and Bernardo Silva played a very similar number of minutes to Henderson and Fabinho (~3800).

In 4 season we've arguably got <2 seasons worth of play out of Keita. That's the issue and I can understand why people may view him as a luxury when he's there on top of Thiago and a few other players >30.
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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35303 on: August 8, 2022, 11:25:16 am »
You seem a little touchy about that :D

You're literally arguing with people who also would like us to sign a midfielder. The question about who the more vociferous critics should aim their rage at is a pretty fair one, whether you like it or not. Myself, I'm in that boring old position of 'I trust the manager and the recruitment team implicitly so whatever they decide to do I'm fine with'.

I never thought I'd say this (again) but can I hear more from Lobo please?
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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35304 on: August 8, 2022, 11:35:46 am »
Losing Keita would not be good and it’s surprising people are advocating it or indifferent to it. You can make a pretty strong case that after Thiago he was our best midfielder across last season. He’s in prime age and at a talent level that’s very hard / expensive to replace


I don't necessarily think it's about performance it's more reliability. Last season he played more games but historically he always seems to get injured just as he starts performing well. I would like more keita's but ones that are injured less. Based on our midfield age we need some reliabilty in there and I'm wouldn't trust Keita to be that player. And I don't think Jones, elliot, Carvalho are ready.
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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35305 on: August 8, 2022, 11:36:34 am »
I know its fantasy but we really should be all over Gavi considering how fucked Barca are
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35306 on: August 8, 2022, 11:36:35 am »
Ha ha. Touched a nerve have I?

All I've done is asked the question  to those very irritated about a lack fo midfield signing to ask themselves why we have bought a midfielder yet and who is making that decision?

No-one has really answered that but continued to shout about the madness of not signing midfielder.

I'll leave it at that though. You, in particularly, clearly don't have the capacity to take wider view or have a debate. By asking some questions I thought I'd open up that debate beyond the continued same thing being repeated again and again. Your response above clearly indicates you don't want a a debate or have even really read my posts.

Like I've said previously, I'd have bought a midfielder this summer. I'm not even debating that or arguing that. I'm asking the question why people think we haven't and who is making that decision (that may not even by Klopp in some people's eyes).

Thing is, you've posted this about five to ten times in the last few days Jookie. So I'm not sure why you're trying to needle on the touching a nerve point?

The funny thing is, the thing that you believe is the only rational answer to your posed question isn't the only answer.

You seem to have forgotten January last year, where Klopp said he wanted a centre back but wasn't going to get one. And Klopp being Klopp, who has talked before about how he has great relationships with his colleagues and isn't one to rock the boat if they see things differently, allowed this to pass and told people publicly that it was the case (that we won't be signing a centre back, and that's fine).

This continued until about halfway through the window, that changed and he went public with his frustration and lo and behold, the thinking changed and the club got to work on several options and ended up signing two (thankfully one of them only a loan).

So it's all well and good constantly posing 'but have you asked yourself, why is it that we are choosing not to sign a midfielder?' - and your proposed explanation is feasible for now (with a month left of the window), and will remain feasible right up until it might be proved completely wrong (if the club moves for a midfielder).

Your entire point, trying to make sense of things we can't possibly know, is predicated on post-hoc rationalisation. If you'd posted it mid January 2021 it would be nodded along with by many, people would have added that we don't sign stop gaps, some would have said we need to keep a path for VDB and Williams, and there'd have been a nice discussion. But it would all have been blown out of the water by the end of the window.

Simple fact is that this whole thing comes down to more than just Klopp's decision, no matter how many times you try to encourage people to consider that he doesn't want to sign a midfielder. It's much more complex than that, and involves people who we won't even know the names of, and (crucially) they will be people who - as in January - react to circumstances. When new information becomes available, they will act on that new information, even if (hypothetically) they were previously thinking on similar lines to you earlier this window.

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35307 on: August 8, 2022, 11:39:02 am »
I don't necessarily think it's about performance it's more reliability. Last season he played more games but historically he always seems to get injured just as he starts performing well. I would like more keita's but ones that are injured less. Based on our midfield age we need some reliabilty in there and I'm wouldn't trust Keita to be that player. And I don't think Jones, elliot, Carvalho are ready.

I agree but we've put ourselves in this position where Keita is pretty vital this year  ... next season Milner, Keita and AOC are all scheduled to leave, if Henderson continues his current trajectory he won't be first eleven level and Thiago isn't going to get less injury prone as he ages.
If Elliot and/or Jones get to our level then that helps a lot (dont think Carvalho is a midfelder in a Klopp system but we'll see)  ... if one of them steps up there's still a lot to do to stay competitive, if they don't its a colossal task
« Last Edit: August 8, 2022, 11:41:13 am by JackWard33 »

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35308 on: August 8, 2022, 11:41:49 am »
Ha ha. Touched a nerve have I?

All I've done is asked the question  to those very irritated about a lack fo midfield signing to ask themselves why we have bought a midfielder yet and who is making that decision?

No-one has really answered that but continued to shout about the madness of not signing midfielder.

I'll leave it at that though. You, in particularly, clearly don't have the capacity to take wider view or have a debate. By asking some questions I thought I'd open up that debate beyond the continued same thing being repeated again and again. Your response above clearly indicates you don't want a a debate or have even really read my posts.

Like I've said previously, I'd have bought a midfielder this summer. I'm not even debating that or arguing that. I'm asking the question why people think we haven't and who is making that decision (that may not even by Klopp in some people's eyes).

The problem is that we all know there is only one answer. So the question becomes, why are you asking that question?


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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35309 on: August 8, 2022, 11:52:43 am »
You seem a little touchy about that :D

You're literally arguing with people who also would like us to sign a midfielder. The question about who the more vociferous critics should aim their rage at is a pretty fair one, whether you like it or not. Myself, I'm in that boring old position of 'I trust the manager and the recruitment team implicitly so whatever they decide to do I'm fine with'.

He's arguing with people who do this:

Superfan: Do you want a new a midfielder?
Poster: Yes
Superfan: The club are not actively pursuing it at this time. Why do you think that is?
Poster: the club trying to save money.
Superfan: So you think we can compete with the sportswashers for funds?
Poster: no, but we should be able to buy one midfielder.
Superfan: So you think we should run the club unsustainably in order to buy a "shiny new toy"?
Poster: that's not what I said.
Superfan: Who do you think is responsible for taking the decision not to buy a midfielder?
Poster: Well, it's obviously between Klopp and our management (FSG).
Superfan: LOL. The greatest manager the club has ever had and you don't trust him?
Poster: That's not what I said.

Seperate post:

Superfan: why are there all these posters on here who want to cripple the club in order to buy a shiny new toy, criticising Klopp and the owners. They must want us to be bought out by a despotic regime and swamp the club with blood money.
Superfan 2: Yeah, the state of this thread and some of our "fans". RAWKs getting overrun by teenagers. It's like twitter...

etc. etc.

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35310 on: August 8, 2022, 11:54:06 am »
A week today we'll beat Palace 4-0 at Anfield with Fabinho, Keita, and Henderson putting in a masterclass, and all will be well again.

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35311 on: August 8, 2022, 11:56:05 am »
Simple fact is that this whole thing comes down to more than just Klopp's decision, no matter how many times you try to encourage people to consider that he doesn't want to sign a midfielder. It's much more complex than that, and involves people who we won't even know the names of, and (crucially) they will be people who - as in January - react to circumstances. When new information becomes available, they will act on that new information, even if (hypothetically) they were previously thinking on similar lines to you earlier this window.

Take on board what you are saying completely. And I am being provocative to have some of that debate on why we haven't signed a midfielder. I even said yesterday in a post that we probably have <1% of the information available to us to even understand the market and why we have or haven't signed player X or Y.

I completely agree that there are other people involved when it comes to recruitment. I even initmiated that in my last post. Klopp certainly doesn't rule on transfers alone. He does likely have a say though. Reports are that Klopp pushed for Thiago for example. However at other times he's gone with other choices (e.g. Salah). There's lots of examples with Klopp publicly saying he is happy with our recruitment strategy. There's one obvious example where he was unhappy. Therefore the evidence is there that he is not the sole determinant of how we buy and don't buy.

People's gripes aren't just about buying a midfielder this summer though. To get bog down in that discussion is quite a narrow view. It's been squad building and player retention over the last few years that has lead us to this position where we have questions about age profile and durability.. Again a multitude of people have a say on this. Klopp does have a pretty big say on what players contracts we extend. If reports are to be believed he was the major person pushing for Henderson and Milner extending contracts relatively recently.

Klopp is also a key decision maker in player development. Player development is a dynamic thing. Young players will progress at different speeds. Players who look destined for 1st team opportunities 1 season, are being sidelined and sold the next season. You use the Williams and van den Berg examples around centre back but for me they have never been that closely integrated into the 1st team squad by design - though the club obviously view them as potential players at some point.

I think a better example is Rhian Brewster when it comes to comparing the positions of Elliott and Jones in the squad. Brewster is an example of how things can change very quickly. A young player who looks destined to have opportunities at 1st team level is suddenly out of the picture. At this point though, Jones and Elliott (& Carvalho for LF) are firmly in that 1st team picture. It's a big season for them since they've been given the opportunity for potential game time. Being 5th-7th choice doesn't mean they'll play regularly but given our durability concerns with others they'll definitely play. At this point it looks like the club have made a decision to put emphasis on Elliott and Jones development rather than buying a more experienced squad option for midfield. Again there's a multitude of factors and people involved. Is this a conscious decision or one borne out of an inability to secure a midfielder via recruitment?

None of us know a lot about the above but surely these are factors worths discussing and exploring. In my opinion I think the club, including Klopp, have done so much, so well that they deserve my faith and trust. Even if I don't necessarily 100% agree with all their decisions. I'm not sure that's being a superfan. Others may have different opinions on this and based on the reaction of others there's certainly a strong sense of feeling around midfield recruitment and retention that suggests people at the club have misjudged numerous decisions. That's the debate for me. What have the club got wrong around midfield player recruitment, retention and development? And what do you think the factors involved are? The discussion has been narrowed to recruitment this summer which doesn't;t really provide a holistic view of how we've arrived at the issues that some people are raising.
I think Jookie might just be the best fisherman on this thread.

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35312 on: August 8, 2022, 11:56:30 am »
I don't care if we get a mid or not. If we need one and get one I'll be happyy that it is the right player. If we need one and don't, I'll be content that the top bods know we need one and are simply waiting for the right player.

After the Utd game I heard loads of gnashing of teeth about how they NEED someone in X position and if that player isn't going to be Y player then they should move on, but there doesn't appear to be a plan B.

I look at it that Ten Haag is (he believes) there for the long haul, to properly overhaul the playing side of the club and that all the players they might want might be unavailable at the moment and so rather than continue with their ridiculous scattergun transfer policy of the last 5-10 years, Rhombus head would rather wait for the RIGHT players instead, rather than get stop-gaps or wrong players who they then cannot shift when the right players become available.

Why am I talking UTD? Because that way of doing transfers has been at our core since Klopp arrived. We took our time and got the RIGHT players (not always 1st choice, but no 'stop-gaps'). It is clearly the right way to go about it.

I know everyone wants everything NOW but that's not really how dynasty building works.

Define "everything".

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35313 on: August 8, 2022, 11:59:20 am »
A week today we'll beat Palace 4-0 at Anfield with Fabinho, Keita, and Henderson putting in a masterclass, and all will be well again.

Their nemesis Sadio Mane isn't going to be playing this time so I'm already a little nervous. If take only a 3-0 victory.
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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35314 on: August 8, 2022, 12:05:33 pm »
He's arguing with people who do this:

Superfan: Do you want a new a midfielder?
Poster: Yes
Superfan: The club are not actively pursuing it at this time. Why do you think that is?
Poster: the club trying to save money.
Superfan: So you think we can compete with the sportswashers for funds?
Poster: no, but we should be able to buy one midfielder.
Superfan: So you think we should run the club unsustainably in order to buy a "shiny new toy"?
Poster: that's not what I said.
Superfan: Who do you think is responsible for taking the decision not to buy a midfielder?
Poster: Well, it's obviously between Klopp and our management (FSG).
Superfan: LOL. The greatest manager the club has ever had and you don't trust him?
Poster: That's not what I said.


Seperate post:

Superfan: why are there all these posters on here who want to cripple the club in order to buy a shiny new toy, criticising Klopp and the owners. They must want us to be bought out by a despotic regime and swamp the club with blood money.
Superfan 2: Yeah, the state of this thread and some of our "fans". RAWKs getting overrun by teenagers. It's like twitter...


etc. etc.

If this is aimed at me, I'd like to see where I've even closely said anything about the above (highlighted in bold).

Pull out my posts in the context of the discussion in the last few day were I've gone on about crippling the club financially or people wanting shiny new toys.

The above is a figment of your imagination (if aimed at me). You and DonkeyWan seem very prickly because I've asked the questions about why we haven't signed a midfielder or who (could be numerous people) s included in that decision making?

I'm going to leave it there though. My aim was to be provocative and raise the level of debate beyond the same circle of discussions that's been going on for weeks. That doesn't seem possible so I'll leave it there. My position is relatively clear. We should buy a midfielder in my opinion but happy to trust the clubs judgement given our previous success at squad building, recruitment and succession planning.
I think Jookie might just be the best fisherman on this thread.

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35315 on: August 8, 2022, 12:21:53 pm »
Not going to lie, this thread is hilarious and the main protagonists are yet to even post :)
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Offline CowboyKangaroo

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35316 on: August 8, 2022, 12:23:08 pm »
Out of interest, do we have enough champions league registration spots for a new (non club trained, non-homegrown) midfielder? If not, who would miss out?
shut up clown. Naby Keita can buy your life and throw it away.

Offline El Lobo

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35317 on: August 8, 2022, 12:26:15 pm »
He's arguing with people who do this:

Superfan: Do you want a new a midfielder?
Poster: Yes
Superfan: The club are not actively pursuing it at this time. Why do you think that is?
Poster: the club trying to save money.
Superfan: So you think we can compete with the sportswashers for funds?
Poster: no, but we should be able to buy one midfielder.
Superfan: So you think we should run the club unsustainably in order to buy a "shiny new toy"?
Poster: that's not what I said.
Superfan: Who do you think is responsible for taking the decision not to buy a midfielder?
Poster: Well, it's obviously between Klopp and our management (FSG).
Superfan: LOL. The greatest manager the club has ever had and you don't trust him?
Poster: That's not what I said.

Seperate post:

Superfan: why are there all these posters on here who want to cripple the club in order to buy a shiny new toy, criticising Klopp and the owners. They must want us to be bought out by a despotic regime and swamp the club with blood money.
Superfan 2: Yeah, the state of this thread and some of our "fans". RAWKs getting overrun by teenagers. It's like twitter...

etc. etc.

I'm not even gonna go back and read whats been posted, but I'll pretty confidently suggest that literally none of that is actually close to whats happened. Right?
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35318 on: August 8, 2022, 12:28:32 pm »
He's arguing with people who do this:

Superfan: Do you want a new a midfielder?
Poster: Yes
Superfan: The club are not actively pursuing it at this time. Why do you think that is?
Poster: the club trying to save money.
Superfan: So you think we can compete with the sportswashers for funds?
Poster: no, but we should be able to buy one midfielder.
Superfan: So you think we should run the club unsustainably in order to buy a "shiny new toy"?
Poster: that's not what I said.
Superfan: Who do you think is responsible for taking the decision not to buy a midfielder?
Poster: Well, it's obviously between Klopp and our management (FSG).
Superfan: LOL. The greatest manager the club has ever had and you don't trust him?
Poster: That's not what I said.

Seperate post:

Superfan: why are there all these posters on here who want to cripple the club in order to buy a shiny new toy, criticising Klopp and the owners. They must want us to be bought out by a despotic regime and swamp the club with blood money.
Superfan 2: Yeah, the state of this thread and some of our "fans". RAWKs getting overrun by teenagers. It's like twitter...

etc. etc.
Bingo.
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #35319 on: August 8, 2022, 12:32:35 pm »
I agree but we've put ourselves in this position where Keita is pretty vital this year  ... next season Milner, Keita and AOC are all scheduled to leave, if Henderson continues his current trajectory he won't be first eleven level and Thiago isn't going to get less injury prone as he ages.
If Elliot and/or Jones get to our level then that helps a lot (dont think Carvalho is a midfelder in a Klopp system but we'll see)  ... if one of them steps up there's still a lot to do to stay competitive, if they don't its a colossal task
Is Keita going to get less injury prone? The three who having contracts running down can be replaced by two players at most and I don't think we need to spend £100m+ to do it.

Maybe we get a team friendly contract sorted for Keita like Milner this summer, but he's probably more likely.to.wnwy first team wages and a longer deal and I don't see how that is the right thing to do if we believe we need to freshen up midifled
« Last Edit: August 8, 2022, 12:34:11 pm by Chris~ »