Topic: Naby Keita Watch

[MerseysideBrum]

It's pretty great that the team are doing so well while he is still struggling for form. If he'd of started like this and we were struggling he'd have a lot more pressure. Just hope he manages to get in to some real form before the end of the season as he could be the difference. I feel like he could have a decisive moment in him for us during this run in.

[royhendo]

By the way the AI numbers.

Highest in team for season in...
Presses per 90: 31.4
Possession wins per 90: 7.2

Palace home game...
Top presser: 27 (despite being taken off after 74 minutes)
2nd in possession wins: 6 all in Palace third
2nd most group presses: 8
Ran 9.8k (translates to 13k ran in a game)
1 assist

Plenty to build on.

[redk84]

Am glad we are not desperate for him to be included at the moment *touches wood* because the other lads in midfield are doing well. But I do hope he puts together a good run of games at some point because not only will it be good for us but still a bit of a surprise factor to teams who don't really know what to expect from him and think they know what to expect when playing us in the 2nd half of this season.

Clearly confidence is a large part of his issues at the moment imo....but he's got time and a manager that trusts him and (hopefully) fans that will be patient with him. He will get there, if not....so be it.

[redk84]

By the way the AI numbers.

Highest in team for season in...
Presses per 90: 31.4
Possession wins per 90: 7.2

Palace home game...
Top presser: 27 (despite being taken off after 74 minutes)
2nd in possession wins: 6 all in Palace third
2nd most group presses: 8
Ran 9.8k (translates to 13k ran in a game)
1 assist

Plenty to build on.

Well that's encouraging in itself...

[Tanner]

IMO his struggle could be due to our evolution into possession based football and his slow adapting to a more 'refined' style of play.

He was originally scouted & bought as a 'shuttler/hustler' midfielder from a very fast paced Leipzig system. He's now part of a system that progressively values controlled possession... we can be direct at times but rely more on patient, inisicive passing/movement to set up the attack.

In our previous system he would've settled quicker (I'd think) as the bulk of our attacks aligned with his skillset of more direct passing/dribbling/movement. Same reason I think Fabinho's settled so quickly, because he's more of a 'lockpicker' type player that thrives in patient build up phases.

As far as i see Keita's rushing things. Just needs to be more patient timing his movement & passing in sync with the team.

[Bergersrightwingviews]

Agree about the patience piece. There's no need to panic at the moment. Plus the pressing stats from Saturday provide some solace in terms of Keita's off the ball contributions.

The point I'd add though is that Fabinho, Robertson or AOC didn't struggle this much to find their place in the team. They were held back and I think each may have had inconsistent performances in their 1st few outings. However, this time last season AOC and Roberston were firmly locked into the 1st XI. Fabinho has done the same thing this year and looks like a fixture in the starting XI for the last 4-6 weeks.

At the moment Keita doesn't look like a fixture in the 1st XI. He still looks like he's coming to terms with the challenge in front on him. A  challenge that the players you have mentioned had overcome by this point. Again, that's fine and Keita may take a longer time to settle. The slight difference is that Keita was dropped in to the team straight away whereas the other 3 were held back and introduced more slowly. I do wonder if that has made a difference.

I may be wrong, but I think Robertson's role in particular is far simpler tactically than what Keita is asked to do. Obviously pressing and positioning is extremely important for Fabinho's role, but on the ball his instructions are probably - get it to one of the boss lads quickly. Keita is one of the boss lads so may have more to think about on the ball as well the positioning and pressing off the ball.

The little knocks here and there are really unfortunate too. I think he just needs more minutes. I am sure he will get them when Klopp feels the time is right.

[soxfan]

I apologize up front for asking, but does anyone have handy the percentage of games Naby played in different positions on the pitch in Germany? I know it's somewhere in this thread but I can't find it. He was used centrally much more there, correct?

He'll be fine. Very talented player. Just taking some time.

[lamonti]

His best game against Burnley was all about keeping the ball and keeping the ball moving in amongst a hustle and bustle of Burnley away. Looked well capable. When it's all in front of him — that is, 9 defenders — he hasn't really shown quite what he can do yet. You know he has those dribbles in him, but probably very wary of losing the ball.

[hesbighesred]

2nd in possession wins: 6 all in Palace third

That's a really impressive stat, especially given that Palace beat our press pretty well - they have the tools to go long and the skill to play through. Ultimately, almost any regain that high up the pitch leads to a dangerous situation. Keita creates dangerous situations. Off the ball through his pressing, on the ball through his passing and dribbling.

Maybe it's not just a case of Keita but his teammates learning to trust him more? There seemed to be a couple of times where he was signalling for ball to feet in a tight spot and we went wide instead. Do we also need to learn that Keita is one of the few players who has the skill to turn being tightly marked to our advantage? That if he's calling for the ball when he's got no space it's not a sign of him being unaware, but rather a sign that he can take those markers out of the game?

Because the things I've seen him do well, done consistently, can take even this team up to another level.

[royhendo]

That seems about right to me Seb. Feed him steaks, teach him some dirty words in English, wind him up like a top and set him loose I reckon.

[Skrtelonparole]

By the way the AI numbers.

Highest in team for season in...
Presses per 90: 31.4
Possession wins per 90: 7.2

Palace home game...
Top presser: 27 (despite being taken off after 74 minutes)
2nd in possession wins: 6 all in Palace third
2nd most group presses: 8
Ran 9.8k (translates to 13k ran in a game)
1 assist

Plenty to build on.

Very good post. Puts things into perspective. Patience.

[Sharado]

The point I'd add though is that Fabinho, Robertson or AOC didn't struggle this much to find their place in the team. 

At the moment Keita doesn't look like a fixture in the 1st XI.

I think he started in early fixtures as Klopp thought he was ready. He performed well against west ham, palace away and I'd say spurs away off the top of my head - while not setting the world alight, perhaps. Subsequently he was taken out of the fire a bit as he wasn't quite 'right'.

A better comparison than ox, fab, robbo for me would be gundongan who from memory Klopp took out of the team when he wasn't quite doing what he was after. Subsequently he learnt his role and did the business.

The stats posted above are encouraging. If he's starting to post good numbers, I think we'll soon see the naby that we're all so excited about.

[Gutzon Borglum]

He showed at Leipzig he has a world class ceiling, by this time next year he will be unquestionably one of our key players, I'm certain of it.

[Funky_Gibbons]

He showed at Leipzig he has a world class ceiling, by this time next year he will be unquestionably one of our key players, I'm certain of it.

Did he live in the Sistine Chapel?

[nico 8]

I like him and definitely think there's a player in there. I keep thinking back to Burnley which tells me that if he can perform against a team of grocs in a December midweek game in East Lancashire when its pissing down, he'll probably be OK. We just need to be patient and support him.

I was astonished, but sadly not surprised, at the amount of stick he took on the HT thread on Saturday. I get the impression that if he is not gliding around, dropping his shoulder and dribbling every few minutes, then he's having a bad game. It's as though people are expecting the You Tube highlights to be the norm, instead of highlights.

I agree. Too often expectation and bias clouds reality.

[Dench57]

Did the live in the Sistine Chapel?

 

[Frank Becton]

His passing was decent on Saturday, a lot of one touch short passing trying to work positions and spaces to get the likes of Firmino on the ball, but he looks devoid of any confidence to me.
Quite a lot of talk in the ground about him, I suppose partly based on the way the first half went on the possible need to introduce Shaqiri.

I realise patience is required, however for the money the club paid it's right to expect some good performances, maybe the role and set up in the midfield isn't suiting him. however there will come a time when he needs to cement his place in the team like Fabinho has done.

The weight of expectation when he arrived had built to a high level, so far it's been a bit underwhelming. Hope he comes good.

[killer-heels]

The guy is excellent. Some of the ability he has shown thus far has been world class. I have no doubts he will be brilliant once he settles.

[Bjornar]

Oddly enough he performed a wonderful press in the move that led to their goal, running on the ‘wrong side’ of McArthur and cutting off the back pass. Sadly the Palace lad wriggled out of Firmino’s challenge and then saw one of our midfielders ridiculously over-commit and leave an enormous space behind him. 

That´s one take on it. The Anfield Wrap review show had the exact opposite analysis of the situation, Keita as one of the culprits and Henderson doing what he was supposed to.

[FlashGordon]

That´s one take on it. The Anfield Wrap review show had the exact opposite analysis of the situation, Keita as one of the culprits and Henderson doing what he was supposed to.

Not a fucking hope, Keita rightly goes to press the man receiving the ball with his back to him and having no idea the pressure was coming, why the others decided to join in after Firmino did is anyone's guess but they were certainly in the wrong.

[Bjornar]

why the others decided to join in after Firmino did is anyone's guess but they were certainly in the wrong.

We had a good chance to get a break high up the pitch there, just because Palace narrowly managed to play themselves out of it in that instance through luck and skill doesn´t mean those aren´t the risks we are supposed to take as a pressing team.

[FlashGordon]

We had a good chance to get a break high up the pitch there, just because Palace narrowly managed to play themselves out of it in that instance through luck and skill doesn´t mean those aren´t the risks we are supposed to take as a pressing team.

Er yeah and Kieta initiated that press? So how is he the one in the wrong? The rest of the lads over commit, no need for four of them to be there.

[Yorkykopite]

That´s one take on it. The Anfield Wrap review show had the exact opposite analysis of the situation, Keita as one of the culprits and Henderson doing what he was supposed to.

I didn’t hear it, but if that’s their analysis they are completely wrong. To the point of maybe not knowing what the classic Klopp press involves.

[royhendo]

Is Bjornar saying Keita's in the wrong?

Red85 said Keita was in the right.
Bjornar said joining that pressure is part of the risk we routinely take as a pressing team.

What's all this shouting? We'll have no trouble here.

[royhendo]

I didn’t hear it, but if that’s their analysis they are completely wrong. To the point of maybe not knowing what the classic Klopp press involves.

It was a weird one - as Bjornar says, Sean Rogers said Henderson ploughed in to show Keita how it was done... I'm not sure he was saying Henderson was doing what he was supposed to though. He did desert his own station. I think he was just rationalising what both players did in the situation. He did the same re Fabinho's reaction too a moment later.

To be fair, he also said you can't really take anything negative out of the game re Keita and that until we see him in a longer run of games in his natural centre mid role we can't really judge. (Later on he also says there's scope for Henderson to improve technically and the consistency of his technique could be better.) It was actually pretty balanced as the standing agenda bullet seems to be "we need to talk about Keita". The only counter to that is Anfield Index's analysis, which says instead "Maybe Keita is gonna be really good". The last time they did something like that they predicted Salah as top league goalscorer when he was supposedly misfiring, because the underlying numbers were actually getting better. 

McArthur did really well in that situation though, it was weird. You might even say he got lucky... but again, the point was made on that and other outlets that it'll act as a nice lure - sides will be more likely to try and play out of the press. Palace got away with a few across the course of the game so teams will think they smell blood... but there's a reason Guardiola was too scared to try it.

[Malaysian Kopite]

That's a really impressive stat, especially given that Palace beat our press pretty well - they have the tools to go long and the skill to play through. Ultimately, almost any regain that high up the pitch leads to a dangerous situation. Keita creates dangerous situations. Off the ball through his pressing, on the ball through his passing and dribbling.

Maybe it's not just a case of Keita but his teammates learning to trust him more? There seemed to be a couple of times where he was signalling for ball to feet in a tight spot and we went wide instead. Do we also need to learn that Keita is one of the few players who has the skill to turn being tightly marked to our advantage? That if he's calling for the ball when he's got no space it's not a sign of him being unaware, but rather a sign that he can take those markers out of the game?

Because the things I've seen him do well, done consistently, can take even this team up to another level.

Surely they'd have figured this out in training?

[Bjornar]

It was a weird one - as Bjornar says, Sean Rogers said Henderson ploughed in to show Keita how it was done... I'm not sure he was saying Henderson was doing what he was supposed to though. 

He did explicitly say he thought Jordan made the right decision, to be fair. But yes, it´s true his opinions came with caveats and from a point of view of rationalising the players' decisions.   

Not sure what to make of that situation to be honest, but thought it looked more like just a good goal by them (with maybe some luck involved as you say), than us making any big collective or individual errors. 

[Yorkykopite]

It was a weird one - as Bjornar says, Sean Rogers said Henderson ploughed in to show Keita how it was done... I'm not sure he was saying Henderson was doing what he was supposed to though. He did desert his own station. I think he was just rationalising what both players did in the situation. He did the same re Fabinho's reaction too a moment later.

Again, I didn’t hear it so I should be careful. But there’s no question that Keita triggered the press by a smart and really intelligent move beyond McArthur’s blind side. I’m sure he was hoping that McArthur would turn that way, straight into his path. He didn’t of course, but the other lads were now smothering him on the side he could see, and they’d reacted just as Klopp wanted them to react as soon as they saw Keita make the trigger run.

Fair play to McArthur, he didn’t panic and somehow got the ball free from Firmino. At that point Liverpool, as a team, needed to reassess because McArthur was facing the right way, with the ball at his feet and ten or so yards of empty space in front of him. That is emphatically NOT the time to press. You can see Robertson understands this because he checks his forward run and tucks in. Henderson however went on a mental one, storming past one Palace central midfielder (so putting another opponent in lots of space in a by now rapidly emptying midfield), and storming straight on to McArthur. It was the easiest thing in the world for the lad with the ball to dip a shoulder and evade Henderson’s charge.

I’m afraid that is about Henderson NOT understanding the press. It’s not the first time I’ve criticised Hendo’s tackling technique, which can almost reach Jon Flanagan levels of innocence on occasions. You can be the swiftest player on the pitch but if you charge at a professional footballer who is facing towards the goal with the ball at his feet he’s going to dribble past you and say ‘ta very much’. That’s what happened.

Keita, on the other hand, showed he is getting it - something confirmed by the stats you posted earlier.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Again, I didn’t hear it so I should be careful. But there’s no question that Keita triggered the press by a smart and really intelligent move beyond McArthur’s blind side. I’m sure he was hoping that McArthur would turn that way, straight into his path. He didn’t of course, but the other lads were now smothering him on the side he could see, and they’d reacted just as Klopp wanted them to react as soon as they saw Keita make the trigger run.

Fair play to McArthur, he didn’t panic and somehow got the ball free from Firmino. At that point Liverpool, as a team, needed to reassess because McArthur was facing the right way, with the ball at his feet and ten or so yards of empty space in front of him. That is emphatically NOT the time to press. You can see Robertson understands this because he checks his forward run and tucks in. Henderson however went on a mental one, storming past one Palace central midfielder (so putting another opponent in lots of space in a by now rapidly emptying midfield), and storming straight on to McArthur. It was the easiest thing in the world for the lad with the ball to dip a shoulder and evade Henderson’s charge.

I’m afraid that is about Henderson NOT understanding the press. It’s not the first time I’ve criticised Hendo’s tackling technique, which can almost reach Jon Flanagan levels of innocence on occasions. You can be the swiftest player on the pitch but if you charge at a professional footballer who is facing towards the goal with the ball at his feet he’s going to dribble past you and say ‘ta very much’. That’s what happened.

Keita, on the other hand, showed he is getting it - something confirmed by the stats you posted earlier.

Sorry, Yorky mate

But that is EXACTLY the time to press

Players with 10 yards of space - even bad players - can kill your defence with one pass.

I'm going to look at that play again, but I am guessing from memory that Henderson was the nearest player to the ball at the time?

[FlashGordon]

Sorry, Yorky mate

But that is EXACTLY the time to press

Players with 10 yards of space - even bad players - can kill your defence with one pass.

I'm going to look at that play again, but I am guessing from memory that Henderson was the nearest player to the ball at the time?

No Naby and Firmino were if memory serves me correctly. Naby initiates the press, then Bobby joins in and a few sconds later Hendo comes charging in from a good distance away. Just to compound it another of ours gets involved too, Fabinho I think, we're then left with a situation of four of our players all around the ball on the edge of their box. I know we hunt in packs but surely one of Hendo or Fabinho or both should have been a bit more cautious.

[fudge]

By the way the AI numbers.

Highest in team for season in...
Presses per 90: 31.4
Possession wins per 90: 7.2

Palace home game...
Top presser: 27 (despite being taken off after 74 minutes)
2nd in possession wins: 6 all in Palace third
2nd most group presses: 8
Ran 9.8k (translates to 13k ran in a game)
1 assist

Plenty to build on.

Shows how little i know about the game , I thought he had an absolute horror show

[PhaseOfPlay]

No Naby and Firmino were if memory serves me correctly. Naby initiates the press, then Bobby joins in and a few sconds later Hendo comes charging in from a good distance away. Just to compound it another of ours gets involved too, Fabinho I think, we're then left with a situation of four of our players all around the ball on the edge of their box. I know we hunt in packs but surely one of Hendo or Fabinho or both should have been a bit more cautious.

I've just watched it, and I'm doing diagrams on it right now, but your memory is off a little. Nothing Henderson did was wrong when he sprinted. However, he shouldn't have had to, as the whole team lacked compactness in the first place, and pressing without compactness is not "pressing" - as we saw repeatedly under Brendan. In fact, I'd say the biggest culprit in that play was Mane. I'll show more when I'm done. I don't listen to podcasts, so I've no idea what Sean Rogers said (and he's a very good coach from the stuff I've read from him in the past), but I won't be surprised if we say the same things.

[royhendo]

Shows how little i know about the game , I thought he had an absolute horror show

I think you can have all that and still put in a horror show to be fair, haha! He was getting on my nerves withy his tentative air - same as Robertson with his cut back instead of shooting at goal.

[classycarra]

I've just watched it, and I'm doing diagrams on it right now, but your memory is off a little. Nothing Henderson did was wrong when he sprinted. However, he shouldn't have had to, as the whole team lacked compactness in the first place, and pressing without compactness is not "pressing" - as we saw repeatedly under Brendan. In fact, I'd say the biggest culprit in that play was Mane. I'll show more when I'm done. I don't listen to podcasts, so I've no idea what Sean Rogers said (and he's a very good coach from the stuff I've read from him in the past), but I won't be surprised if we say the same things.

Looking forward to this! Was listening out to hear if Klopp had any comment on it after the game.

Had a little exchange in the Fabinho thread (initially started in defence of Fabinho not being in the middle where Townsend scored from, because he had to cover Robertson - before seeing this better replay: https://streamable.com/53fer,)

Would be great to hear how wrong I got it!

It started here
https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=340309.msg16436536#msg16436536

[PhaseOfPlay]

Just quickly - the only thing Naby does wrong here is diving in to win the ball when he really didn't need to. If he'd stood up, he'd have created a pause in the Palace possession. Diving in for tackles almost always favours the attacker. It's a no-no even at U10 level.

[kasperoff]

Looking forward to this! Was listening out to hear if Klopp had any comment on it after the game.

Had a little exchange in the Fabinho thread (initially started in defence of Fabinho not being in the middle where Townsend scored from, because he had to cover Robertson - before seeing this better replay: https://streamable.com/53fer,)

Would be great to hear how wrong I got it!

It started here
https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=340309.msg16436536#msg16436536

It's actually a very decent goal from Palace, that. Not seeing a whole lot wrong from Keita. The ball was in his zone. Mane seems to vacate the space we actually get exposed in, Hendo also seems to vacate the middle, although I'm not sure he'd have been a able to do much about the ball getting to Zaha. Perhaps he's have been well positioned to cover eventual goal scorer, Townsend.

That said Mane and Hendo are just pressing and doing as they have been told ain't they? I can seen Mane thinking " I'm gonna ghost in here and nip out any pass along the back line". It's pressing at the end of the day, and there is always a percentage of gamble. It's risk v reward and we usually get the reward.

If anything, Firmino pulls out of a winnable 50/50, but I can forgive him, as he's usually pretty full-bloodied on those.

We got "done", but as long as it's only 1 in 10, then I can live with it. Only a small percentage of that 1 in 10 will end up in a goal.

[classycarra]

He was alongside the master of not diving in (Fimino). Great person to learn from. He only ever seems to dive in when he's guaranteed to get the ball, or when he knows to foul

[Robinred]

The Palace goal was a catalogue of small errors surely? (as most goals are). Even Alisson could have done better, arguably.

McArthur does really well, Zaha skins Milly, Townsend’s movement and finish are exemplary.

We still beat them, and what was most gratifying was that Hodgson felt aggrieved. So he should. They played well, but we played better.

[DangerScouse]

IMO his struggle could be due to our evolution into possession based football and his slow adapting to a more 'refined' style of play.

He was originally scouted & bought as a 'shuttler/hustler' midfielder from a very fast paced Leipzig system. He's now part of a system that progressively values controlled possession... we can be direct at times but rely more on patient, inisicive passing/movement to set up the attack.

In our previous system he would've settled quicker (I'd think) as the bulk of our attacks aligned with his skillset of more direct passing/dribbling/movement. Same reason I think Fabinho's settled so quickly, because he's more of a 'lockpicker' type player that thrives in patient build up phases.

As far as i see Keita's rushing things. Just needs to be more patient timing his movement & passing in sync with the team.

Good post.

[royhendo]

Oxlade Chamberlain struggled - he came from Wenger’s Arsenal. I don’t know. I think sometimes it’s just overwhelm.