Topic: Lionel Messi

[classycarra]

It wasn't a great side but it was a mostly well balanced side. I had them down that year to go a long way because their draw looked good and they had a solid middle but there wasn't great quality there overall. Functional I'd say. In fact, they scored once in 90 minutes in the knockout games and their only other goal came against Switzerland in extra time (from di Maria, set up by Messi).

Their problem was they were managed by an utter loon, who seemed to know nothing about setting up the team (to be fair, a much better coach has managed to emulate him - including in the 'looks like he's on coke' stakes)

[Lush is the best medicine...]

It wasn't a great side but it was a mostly well balanced side. I had them down that year to go a long way because their draw looked good and they had a solid middle but there wasn't great quality there overall. Functional I'd say. In fact, they scored once in 90 minutes in the knockout games and their only other goal came against Switzerland in extra time (from di Maria, set up by Messi).

yeah in a tournament I think if you are competent defensively but have good attackers you can go far, pretty much how I saw that tournament as well. Didn’t expect them to win it but wasn’t shocked they got to the final as they had a solid enough base where messi could work on

I don't think that's fair on Messi. I personally don't think his greatness depends one iota on whether Higuain scored or whether he picked up the trophy. Messi's place in the pantheon is completely dependent on what Messi does. And in the 7 highest pressure games of his career he's looked a shadow of the Messi in his comfort zone.

winning a World Cup, especially for the argentines (who lest we forget have never seen him play club football there unlike maradona) massively elevates him, winning a World Cup does that, especially for the greats (Ronaldo in 2002, I know he was in the squad in 94 but don’t think he played) it takes you up a level

Their problem was they were managed by an utter loon, who seemed to know nothing about setting up the team (to be fair, a much better coach has managed to emulate him - including in the 'looks like he's on coke' stakes)

Sabella? Maradona had them in 2010, sabella had them in 2014

[classycarra]

Sabella? Maradona had them in 2010, sabella had them in 2014

For some reason my mind has combined memories of the Brazil world cup with mardonna being the manager. Oops

[deFacto please, you bastards]

I don't think that's fair on Messi. I personally don't think his greatness depends one iota on whether Higuain scored or whether he picked up the trophy. Messi's place in the pantheon is completely dependent on what Messi does. And in the 7 highest pressure games of his career he's looked a shadow of the Messi in his comfort zone.

No objective person looking at Messi in a WC knockout would say he's playing like the best player in history (using the eye test, the stats test, the productivity test, any which way you want to measure it). It's not because of Higuain that he plays well within himself in those insanely high pressure matches. Winning or not winning in 2014 has nothing to do with it in my opinion. Finishing runner up but having an awesome tournament (like Baggio in 94 or ZZ in 06) would have been enough to prove that he can play to his amazing level when out of his comfort zone.

 Just because your opinion differs from some of us doesn't mean we're objective.

Ten years of continued excellence that have been only matched by one player, one player who plays the game different than he does all together, and being a play maker and prolific [which is an understatement] is my eye test is my objective view on his entire portfolio

Fair, you disagree, you have your own view but it's an absolute load of tosh to say that some of us aren't objective.

[Sheer Magnetism]

It's not because of Higuain that he plays well within himself in those insanely high pressure matches. Winning or not winning in 2014 has nothing to do with it in my opinion. Finishing runner up but having an awesome tournament (like Baggio in 94 or ZZ in 06) would have been enough to prove that he can play to his amazing level when out of his comfort zone.

He won Golden Ball in 2014 while dragging Argentina to the final - does that not count as an amazing tournament?

[Lush is the best medicine...]

He won Golden Ball in 2014 while dragging Argentina to the final - does that not count as an amazing tournament?

cant agree he was the best player and two goals in the three knockout (none from him) times suggest he didn’t exactly ‘drag them to the final’

[Sheer Magnetism]

cant agree he was the best player and two goals in the three knockout (none from him) times suggest he didn’t exactly ‘drag them to the final’

I was being a little hyperbolic, their defence was fantastic. But still, take away that constant attacking threat and they'd have looked a fraction of the team.

[Xabi Gerrard]

cant agree he was the best player and two goals in the three knockout (none from him) times suggest he didn’t exactly ‘drag them to the final’

Exactly. There was no "dragging them to the final" going on at all once the knockouts began. The only truly exceptional Argentinian performance in that year's knockouts what Mascherano V the Netherlands.

His individual award that year is definitely filed next to Giggs 08/09 and Parker 10/11 in terms of 'more than what they actually did' being taken in to account.

[Chris~]

He's had 10+ seasons of being phenomenal playing in a very specific system, surrounded by the very best players in the world all tailoring their game to get the best out of him, playing in a completely lop sided league where 90% of the opposing teams have a tiny tiny fraction of the resources of his team. Scored a goal a game, he's been absolutely brilliant.

Rachet up the pressure and quality of opposition, but keep him in the comfort zone of his system and being surrounded by the worlds best - i.e. put him in the late stages of the CL - and he starts looking slightly less phenomenal, his productivity falls greatly (less than 1 goal in 2 games).

Take him out of his comfort zone of playing in his system and being surrounded by the worlds best players all playing for him, and ratchet up the pressure 20 fold - i.e. put him in the WC knockouts - and he doesn't look special at all. 0 in 7.


He's quite clearly a fucking amazing player - definitely ONE OF the best of all time. But when talking about THE goat you have to look at his career holistically rather than just focusing on one very specific aspect of it when he's in his comfort zone and ignoring when he's not in his comfort zone. I'm not sure if you're old enough to have seen Maradona or Brazilian Ronaldo (especially pre-injury) but they both managed to translate their phenomenal genius into any circumstances for example.

Please please please tell me you don't also think that Giggs was the best player in England in 2008/09 and that Scott Parker was the best player in 2010/11? You know that they weren't......right?

Again if you want to focus on 7 games from a career of what will be 600+ be my guest but that's mad. Same way people don't focus on maradonas scoring record in the latter stages of European/south American cup competitions . So is the idea that this specific system Barca have has been the same from guardiola to valverde, or that the international teams are better than the other top Spanish teams messi has regularly scored against.

[Samie]

James Rodriguez was the player of the 2014 tournament, without a shadow of a doubt. As well as being the top scorer in it. It's a crime that he came third in the official Fifa polls. 

[El Lobo]

Just because your opinion differs from some of us doesn't mean we're objective.

Ten years of continued excellence that have been only matched by one player, one player who plays the game different than he does all together, and being a play maker and prolific [which is an understatement] is my eye test is my objective view on his entire portfolio

Fair, you disagree, you have your own view but it's an absolute load of tosh to say that some of us aren't objective.

Absolutely

To be fair, the lads a troll. It’s what he does, it’s why I can’t see what he says unless someone unfortunately quotes him 

You get people who don’t want to say that Messi is the best ever, so they’ll literally use any possible argument. The problem they then have is that the arguments they’ve put in place for Messi, tend to also relate to other players. If Pele or Maradona or Cruyff or Ronaldo has the club career Messi has run their international exploits would be a fair decider. But none of them come even close.

[Xabi Gerrard]

To be fair, the lads a troll. It’s what he does, it’s why I can’t see what he says unless someone unfortunately quotes him 

A troll? Do you even know what that word means as it doesn't reflect what I write on RAWK as my history will attest.

You can't see my posts because you were toxifying a thread flooding it with your usual 'attack the poster, ignore the topic' barrage of replies (which, surprise surprise, you're doing right now), I made a dig at you calling you out on it, you had a hissy fit in a PM to me, I apologised if you felt I had gone below the belt, you blocked me, the end. That's not trolling.

Re: this topic, I still disagree with deFacto (and others) but they're making really good points and, even though I think we'll all end by agreeing to disagree, it's a good footy discussion. Please don't ruin it with more of your toxic shite by calling anyone you disagree with a troll.

[El Lobo]

A troll? Do you even know what that word means as it doesn't reflect what I write on RAWK as my history will attest.

You can't see my posts because you were toxifying a thread flooding it with your usual 'attack the poster, ignore the topic' barrage of replies (which, surprise surprise, you're doing right now), I made a dig at you calling you out on it, you had a hissy fit in a PM to me, I apologised if you felt I had gone below the belt, you blocked me, the end. That's not trolling.

Is that what happened 

I seem to remember I was telling the Spurs lad (who has subsequently been banned for talking shite), that he was talking shite about Harry Kane being better than Dennis Bergkamp. You didn’t make a dig calling me out on anything. You made a dig at my dad. So yes. Troll Fully stand by that.

Troll

One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument

And yes absolutely based on your posts in this thread too. You compared his award at the World Cup to Giggs winning the Player of the Year award. So yes again....Troll. He scored in all three group phase games. He made their winning goal in the first knockout phase, two minutes before penalties. He was the third top scorer, scored in three of his countries games as they got to the final with him as their best player. So yeah to try and write it off in the same league as Giggs, who wasn’t even one of his clubs five best players that season and was PURELY given it because he hadn’t before, is fairly hefty trolling.

[Xabi Gerrard]

Is that what happened 

I seem to remember I was telling the Spurs lad (who has subsequently been banned for talking shite), that he was talking shite about Harry Kane being better than Dennis Bergkamp. You didn’t make a dig calling me out on anything. You made a dig at my dad. So yes. Troll Fully stand by that.

Troll

One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument

And yes absolutely based on your posts in this thread too. You compared his award at the World Cup to Giggs winning the Player of the Year award. So yes again....Troll. He scored in all three group phase games. He made their winning goal in the first knockout phase, two minutes before penalties. He was the third top scorer, scored in three of his countries games as they got to the final with him as their best player. So yeah to try and write it off in the same league as Giggs, who wasn’t even one of his clubs five best players that season and was PURELY given it because he hadn’t before, is fairly hefty trolling.

There were 2 toxic posters in that Spurs thread - you and Primativ. And your toxic posts weren't just restricted to responding to him either.

Back to Messi/the GOAT debate - you do realise that it's an opinion thing, right, and there are a few players who it could easily be argued for, depending on what an individual persons' criteria is for the GOAT? Maradona, Messi, Pele, etc all have a valid argument, no matter how vehemently you argue that your OPINION is FACT.

So making a list of my arguments (which, by the way, you've massively twisted) and then writing "troll" after it says more about your ineptitude at forming an argument than it does about my points.

Can you go back to ignoring me please. The posts on both sides (Messi is the GOAT, Messi isn't the GOAT) had all been thought provoking until you waded and decided to get personal with me. Don't toxify another thread with your off topic bullshit.

[thegoodfella]

Re: this topic, I still disagree with deFacto (and others) but they're making really good points and, even though I think we'll all end by agreeing to disagree, it's a good footy discussion. Please don't ruin it with more of your toxic shite by calling anyone you disagree with a troll.

But is it a discussion? Even if it is, I think it is a very poor discussion, and reads like most internet communications, doubling down on the subjective opinions one has and presenting them as objective statements. How about having a discussion about the following:

1. Whether it is fair to single out 'GOAT' (a term I've started to dislike a fair bit) in what is a team game, and should it be just the goalscorers who can/should be considered as that? Objectively, how can a player be the 'greatest of all time' when footballing careers span 10-12 years, out of which 5-6 years are peak if one is lucky. And 'all time' in footballing terms is, well, all time.

2. Whether we are all clouded by our own subjective and random opinions that determine who we feel is the 'greatest'? For example, I think Ronaldo (the Brazilian) is the best player ever, but I know that's a generational thing, I was a teenager when he started his career, and 20 in 2002 when he scored 8 in the World Cup, with a team full of amazing players, Cafu, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Carlos, which extends to the third point;

3. Should and can we compare players across eras objectively? Messi, Ronaldo, Romario, Pele, Maradona, Muller, and rest of the are a product of their own individual circumstances, the tactics, the teams, the managers they played with. Put Maradona in the team that played yesterday, and I bet he gets knocked out as well.

And regarding calling you a troll, I agree that you shouldn't be called a troll. And I also agree with deFacto's post that you are asserting that your subjective opinion is objective, when in fact, we are all subjective here.

[El Lobo]

There were 2 toxic posters in that Spurs thread - you and Primativ. And your toxic posts weren't just restricted to responding to him either.

Back to Messi/the GOAT debate - you do realise that it's an opinion thing, right, and there are a few players who it could easily be argued for, depending on what an individual persons' criteria is for the GOAT? Maradona, Messi, Pele, etc all have a valid argument, no matter how vehemently you argue that your OPINION is FACT.

So making a list of my arguments (which, by the way, you've massively twisted) and then writing "troll" after it says more about your ineptitude at forming an argument than it does about my points.

Can you go back to ignoring me please. The posts on both sides (Messi is the GOAT, Messi isn't the GOAT) had all been thought provoking until you waded and decided to get personal with me. Don't toxify another thread with your off topic bullshit.

I still am

But if you post shite like ‘that World Cup award he won was akin to Giggs winning PFA Player of the Year’ then I’ll most likely still chime in to say how trolly that is. Certainly nothing toxic, and certainly not off topic. You made it the topic, it’s one of the arguments you used yourself. If you don’t want people calling attention to it, just go and delete it and acknowledge you were talking tripe again rather than trying to shut down people calling attention to it. And honestly lad, don’t talk about making things personal with your track record.

[Samie]

Messi is no GOAT.  Heck he will forever be a King to Maradona's "God" back home.

[El Lobo]

Messi is no GOAT.  Heck he will forever be a King to Maradona's "God" back home.

His European Cup record is beyond reproach

[Xabi Gerrard]

But is it a discussion? Even if it is, I think it is a very poor discussion, and reads like most internet communications, doubling down on the subjective opinions one has and presenting them as objective statements. How about having a discussion about the following:

1. Whether it is fair to single out 'GOAT' (a term I've started to dislike a fair bit) in what is a team game, and should it be just the goalscorers who can/should be considered as that? Objectively, how can a player be the 'greatest of all time' when footballing careers span 10-12 years, out of which 5-6 years are peak if one is lucky. And 'all time' in footballing terms is, well, all time.

2. Whether we are all clouded by our own subjective and random opinions that determine who we feel is the 'greatest'? For example, I think Ronaldo (the Brazilian) is the best player ever, but I know that's a generational thing, I was a teenager when he started his career, and 20 in 2002 when he scored 8 in the World Cup, with a team full of amazing players, Cafu, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Carlos, which extends to the third point;

3. Should and can we compare players across eras objectively? Messi, Ronaldo, Romario, Pele, Maradona, Muller, and rest of the are a product of their own individual circumstances, the tactics, the teams, the managers they played with. Put Maradona in the team that played yesterday, and I bet he gets knocked out as well.

And regarding calling you a troll, I agree that you shouldn't be called a troll. And I also agree with deFacto's post that you are asserting that your subjective opinion is objective, when in fact, we are all subjective here.

All good points Goodfella, I agree with pretty much all of that (slight disagreement that I'm a Maradona man if I had to pin my colours to the mast, but I agree that O Fenomeno is definitely up there (pre injury) - those 2 and Messi are definitely the 3 best footballers I've seen in my lifetime, all due respect to Ronaldinho, cRonaldo & ZZ who weren't quite at that level).

[Samie]

His European Cup record is beyond reproach

Football is a worldwide game Lobo. Stop being an elitist. 

[Xabi Gerrard]

I still am

 Brill

But if you post shite like ‘that World Cup award he won was akin to Giggs winning PFA Player of the Year’ then I’ll most likely still chime in to say how trolly that is. Certainly nothing toxic, and certainly not off topic. You made it the topic, it’s one of the arguments you used yourself. If you don’t want people calling attention to it, just go and delete it and acknowledge you were talking tripe again rather than trying to shut down people calling attention to it. And honestly lad, don’t talk about making things personal with your track record.

The Giggs/Parker point, which I think most people don't need explaining, is that individual awards shouldn't be taken to seriously and definitely shouldn't be seen as proof of who was the best player. When a previous poster used it to imply that Messi was the best player at WC'14 I used the Giggs/Parker awards to point out that they shouldn't take the award as proof of anything. Saying Messi wasn't the best player in 2014 isn't a particularly controversial point - seems like many others on here agree.

Hope that clears it up.

[Samie]

Whoever thinks Messi was Player of the Tournament in 2014,certainly never saw James Rodriguez play in that tournament. 

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Messi is no GOAT.  Heck he will forever be a King to Maradona's "God" back home.

this x1000

[El Lobo]

No-one needs it explaining, it’s there in black and white Xabi. You compared it to two players, specifically, who very obviously WERENT the best players that season. Arguably and unarguably. If your point was that individual awards don’t really matter, I’d suggest maybe just make that point next time rather than using the rather extreme example of Giggs basically winning a lifetime achievement award. And the whole point of bringing that particular award up in the first place was to oppose the pretty shite ‘Messi has never done anything in the World Cup knockouts’ argument.

[Xabi Gerrard]

No-one needs it explaining, it’s there in black and white Xabi. You compared it to two players, specifically, who very obviously WERENT the best players that season. Arguably and unarguably. If your point was that individual awards don’t really matter, I’d suggest maybe just make that point next time rather than using the rather extreme example of Giggs basically winning a lifetime achievement award. And the whole point of bringing that particular award up in the first place was to oppose the pretty shite ‘Messi has never done anything in the World Cup knockouts’ argument.

You obviously do still need it explaining because you seem to still be spectacularly missing the point

It's really nothing to get het up about. Individual awards shouldn't be used as an argument for who is the best player in a competition, as evidenced by Giggs and Parker. Therefore, it's not proof that Messi was best player in 2014. Not sure why you're still making a bizarre issue out of it. Let it go.

[Broad Spectrum]

Who gives a fuck what the people of Argentina think. Messi is well better than Maradona, I guess nostalgia is a powerful feeling though, everything was ‘better back then’.

[El Lobo]

You obviously do still need it explaining because you seem to still be spectacularly missing the point

It's really nothing to get het up about. Individual awards shouldn't be used as an argument for who is the best player in a competition, as evidenced by Giggs and Parker. Therefore, it's not proof that Messi was best player in 2014. Not sure why you're still making a bizarre issue out of it. Let it go.

Bless your little cotton socks

[RayPhilAlan]

Whoever thinks Messi was Player of the Tournament in 2014,certainly never saw James Rodriguez play in that tournament. 

James had a good tournament 4 years ago, and got his move to Madrid on the back of it, but I don't think he was as great as you seem to think.

To me, the top two players at the last World Cup were Mascherano and Schweinsteiger, and the battle in midfield between them in the final was the absolute highlight of the tournament, with Schweinsteiger battered and bleeding but coming out on top.

Oh, and Messi was better than James at the World Cup, but ran into his familiar problem with Argentina where he too often has to set up the goals and be on the end of his own through-balls. See 2018 for reference, although even more so this time around. Why they didn't even try to partner him with Dybala this time around is beyond me.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Oh, and Messi was better than James at the World Cup

Why they didn't even try to partner him with Dybala this time around is beyond me.

they tried in friendlies and they couldn’t play together

[El Lobo]

Its all pretty arguable to be fair, its at most seven games. Against fairly wildly differing levels of opposition. I don't think anyone could really argue that Messi was one of the best players that year, whether he was the absolute best or not. Which again makes the comparison with Giggs lifetime achievement award a bit daft.

[LanceLink!!!!!]

Who gives a fuck what the people of Argentina think. Messi is well better than Maradona, I guess nostalgia is a powerful feeling though, everything was ‘better back then’.

Well better?

You obviously never saw Diego Maradona play football.

[elsewhere]

Well better?

You obviously never saw Diego Maradona play football.

I did and I think Messi is better, not agreeing with "well better" though.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Its all pretty arguable to be fair, its at most seven games. Against fairly wildly differing levels of opposition. I don't think anyone could really argue that Messi was one of the best players that year, whether he was the absolute best or not. Which again makes the comparison with Giggs lifetime achievement award a bit daft.

no it’s not arguable the award to him was a joke, James was the golden boot, scored every game and took his country further than ever before, James, robben, neuer, navas, kroos, Neymar bang off the top of my head were more deserving than messi

[LFC when it suits]

Whoever thinks Messi was Player of the Tournament in 2014,certainly never saw James Rodriguez play in that tournament. 

Probably never saw Messi play either seeing as he wasn't even the best player on his team.

[markmywords]

Rachet up the pressure and quality of opposition, but keep him in the comfort zone of his system and being surrounded by the worlds best - i.e. put him in the late stages of the CL - and he starts looking slightly less phenomenal, his productivity falls greatly (less than 1 goal in 2 games).

Take him out of his comfort zone of playing in his system and being surrounded by the worlds best players all playing for him, and ratchet up the pressure 20 fold - i.e. put him in the WC knockouts - and he doesn't look special at all. 0 in 7.


He's quite clearly a fucking amazing player - definitely ONE OF the best of all time. But when talking about THE goat you have to look at his career holistically rather than just focusing on one very specific aspect of it when he's in his comfort zone and ignoring when he's not in his comfort zone. I'm not sure if you're old enough to have seen Maradona or Brazilian Ronaldo (especially pre-injury) but they both managed to translate their phenomenal genius into any circumstances for example.

I love diego, but you maybe overselling him

Translate his genius into any circumstance???

It could be argued Diego's "comfort zone" was being the star man in a team not expected to win i.e a small pond.  Where defeat is easily forgiven.

In that arena he is better than messi, it appears

But when he is put in a situation where he is in which, according to you " financially lopsided, 2 team league" where results are demanded. He did not translate his genius, far from it.

Let's make binary statements about Diego, based on his Barca numbers compared with Messi, like you do regarding world cups and then make sweeping judgements

Diego from my research played in 5 classico's - 1 goal
Messi 38 games - 26 goals

there was an award Don Ballon for best foreign player in la liga, the award became defunct in 2010

Diego never won it
Messi won it 3 times of of 4. From when he became a first teamer in 2006

When it come to la liga goals Messi scored in each of the last 10 years more goals than diego in his 2 yrs combined at Barca

The Barca team he played was decent as well, when messi doesn't play argentina they can lose even 6-1, whilst as soon as diego left Barca, they won the league the next yr, after not winning during the Diego years.

Messi achievement as shining over and above other greats and maintaining the success is definitely under sold by many and there are indicators, that Diego may possibly have not been as successful at this

[harleydanger]

He has the look of someone who is the last one at the party, wondering where his friends went.

[GBF]

He is a has-been since a few season now.  No desire to play and is happy to enjoy the comfort of a Barca team.

What would be a shame is that he will still be in the top 3 best player award

[Chakan]

He is a has-been since a few season now.  No desire to play and is happy to enjoy the comfort of a Barca team.

What would be a shame is that he will still be in the top 3 best player award

A has been with 45 goals this season. Ok.

[markmywords]

He is a has-been since a few season now.  No desire to play and is happy to enjoy the comfort of a Barca team.

What would be a shame is that he will still be in the top 3 best player award

You can console yourself with your top 3 top troll award, "the trollon d'Or"

[Suareznumber7]

He is a has-been since a few season now.  No desire to play and is happy to enjoy the comfort of a Barca team.

What would be a shame is that he will still be in the top 3 best player award

Out of all the bad posts in this thread this may be the worst.  Seriously, the best player in the world, by a fucking long shot, is a “has-been”?