Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
65 (8.8%)
Mays Deal!
14 (1.9%)
No Brexit!
539 (72.8%)
Don't Know
10 (1.4%)
Don't Care
15 (2%)
I don't live in the UK
97 (13.1%)

Total Members Voted: 740

Author Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"  (Read 1440250 times)

Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Batshit fucker and Chief Yuletide Porcine Voyeur
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,950
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28280 on: September 11, 2019, 11:56:20 pm »
One gran is french and lives in the south of France. She thinks England and the English are mental.

The other gran wanted to vote Leave but said she voted Remain because we were all passionate about it. I dont believe her.
Well, I really wasn't expecting a reply - thank you for actually doing that. But what I was getting at is: do you like your grandparents? You seem to actually hate all old people. Surely not!?
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

Online Banquo's Ghost

  • Macbeth's on repeat. To boldly split infinitives that lesser men would dare. To.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,471
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28281 on: September 11, 2019, 11:58:22 pm »
Honestly, there is no ethical option other than Revoke and Remain.

Labour pussyfooting about with their delusions is almost as criminal as the fascist-wannabees. I'll bet Milne is salivating at the prospect of getting his chance at following Cummings' lead and destroying centuries of parliamentary rule. Two men and their puppets that all should be locked in the oubliette.
Be humble, for you are made of earth. Be noble, for you are made of stars.

Online Ghost Town

  • RAWK snitch. Bands won't play no more. Too much fighting on the dance floor! Probably one of only three people who knows the meaning of "depuratory", the Suzy Dent-esque freakshow! Hannoying homunculus.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,899
  • mundus vult decipi
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28282 on: September 12, 2019, 12:00:27 am »
I think there has been analysis showing a lot of leave voters feel that things can't get worse for them. We've had austerity for god knows how long while the bankers still pick up stupefying bonuses.
It does seem strange that these people who claim that they have been so neglected and abused and hard hit by austerity want to give more power to those who neglected them and abused them and imposed austerity upon them. Something doesn't add up.
"Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth, and every other man has a right to knock him down for it."
Samuel (not Glen) Johnson, as reported by James (not Joey) Boswell. They must have foreseen RAWK ;D

Online oldfordie

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,352
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28283 on: September 12, 2019, 12:02:52 am »
If remain are to win at the ballot box, they have to learn to not try to argue with idiots.

--edit-- fwiw I think getting some famous, trusted names wheeled out saying vote remain is important. Maybe hosts of strictly or bake off.  The managers of some football clubs. Alan sugars or Bransons ( though I think sugar may be a leave voter, not sure). Anyone from downtown abbey !
  :) You may well be right, not sure how many people can bear to watch the news nowadays, best way to influence public opinion is through Bake off etc  :)
I don't actually bother arguing with hard core leave voters one to one now, they are a lost cause, I will debate with them on a forum though,not to win them over,to win any undecided voters who maybe reading the thread.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Batshit fucker and Chief Yuletide Porcine Voyeur
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,950
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28284 on: September 12, 2019, 12:17:44 am »
If remain are to win at the ballot box, they have to learn to not try to argue with idiots.

--edit-- fwiw I think getting some famous, trusted names wheeled out saying vote remain is important. Maybe hosts of strictly or bake off.  The managers of some football clubs. Alan sugars or Bransons ( though I think sugar may be a leave voter, not sure). Anyone from downtown abbey !
Sugar on Brexit and stuff: https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/alan-sugar-on-nigel-Frottage-and-jeremy-corbyn-1-6048718

Can't say that I care for Alan Sugar (understatement), but he is mostly correct in what he is reported to have said in that article.

Not sure about using celebrities for such things. It generally irritates the fuck out of me, but it seems to work. Though, I suspect, it works less well on potential Remainers compared to your simpleminded Brexiteer.

I do try to not label Brexiteers as stupid. But, really, in the main, they are generally pretty thick. They have to be.
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

Online Ghost Town

  • RAWK snitch. Bands won't play no more. Too much fighting on the dance floor! Probably one of only three people who knows the meaning of "depuratory", the Suzy Dent-esque freakshow! Hannoying homunculus.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,899
  • mundus vult decipi
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28285 on: September 12, 2019, 12:21:26 am »
  :) You may well be right, not sure how many people can bear to watch the news nowadays, best way to influence public opinion is through Bake off etc  :)
I don't actually bother arguing with hard core leave voters one to one now, they are a lost cause, I will debate with them on a forum though,not to win them over,to win any undecided voters who maybe reading the thread.
Agreed, I think it's too late now to change most Brexiters' minds, even if that were ever possible with some of them. Those who were going to change (and loads have) have done so already, as attested to by several poster here and the Remainer Now group. These are people who operate via reason and so can be shown the error of Brexit.

The rest became Brexiters for non-rational reasons (emotional, ideological, xenophobic, racist etc or because they stood to benefit financially or in some other way) and many have made their Leave state part of their identity, so to nullify that belief would be to nullify themselves.

I keep paraphrasing Swift when I say that you can't reason people out of something they didn't reason their selves into. To which I should add Dryden's notion that "a man is to be cheated into passion", i.e you get people to believe irrational things by cheating them into that state (using lies, trickery, manipulation etc), and that is exactly what the Leave campaign have done. 
"Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth, and every other man has a right to knock him down for it."
Samuel (not Glen) Johnson, as reported by James (not Joey) Boswell. They must have foreseen RAWK ;D

Online oldfordie

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,352
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28286 on: September 12, 2019, 12:24:04 am »
I'm going to go against the grain a bit here and say that Labour are probably doing the right thing here in going for a choice between a deal or remain, rather than just putting their hat on remain.

Don't worry, there will be enough young voters and northern tits like me who voted to leave, but have been educated and have long since seen sense.

Some will however still want to be given the choice. People don't like to be dictated to and want to make their own minds up.

They say an election will be decided in the northern heartlands. Working class people don't easily forget Thatcher and now they are being faced with a lying far right tory government again.  In fact this one is worse. i don't think Labour will necessary win an election outright, but do think they will do a lot better than is predicted in the polls.

I've never liked Corbyn, but as things stand I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Yes he could and should have done a lot, lot more to curb antisemitism within the Labour party and yes has kept poor company in the past, but I just cling to the hope that  there are enough good people within the Labour party to reign him in and with age comes wisdom and with responsibilty also.

We all make mistakes in life and politics has been fucked in this country for years.

Time for a change, but as far as us staying in the EU.

If it's not broken don't try and fix it ffs.
I get where your coming from RF. if we are going to have a referendum then we should at least have a credible leave option.
It would have been a great argument for Labour to make 3 yrs ago.it might have stopped the country from splitting in half.
I would have no problem with it but Labour will be ripped apart defending their stance.
I am not bothered about Corbyn but I am worried over the consequences for remain if Johnson+Frottage rip him to shreds. I fear they will rip him to shreds.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Online Ghost Town

  • RAWK snitch. Bands won't play no more. Too much fighting on the dance floor! Probably one of only three people who knows the meaning of "depuratory", the Suzy Dent-esque freakshow! Hannoying homunculus.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,899
  • mundus vult decipi
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28287 on: September 12, 2019, 12:27:28 am »

I do try to not label Brexiteers as stupid. But, really, in the main, they are generally pretty thick. They have to be.
The point I always try and make when speaking to others is that I don't think Leavers were necessarily stupid to vote Leave; they were, after all, lied to and manipulated by experts.

But they often are stupid if they continue to spout the same old nonsense that has been proven to be false, or to double down on their position when it has been shown to be wrong.

Mostly, however, I don't think Leavers are necessarily stupid, they just aren't prepared to look at the facts in the face. They are shielding themselves from the reality because they are afraid it will show them to have backed the wrong horse, and not everyone is strong enough to be able to admit that, or to admit that they let themselves be lied to and manipulated.
"Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth, and every other man has a right to knock him down for it."
Samuel (not Glen) Johnson, as reported by James (not Joey) Boswell. They must have foreseen RAWK ;D

Offline Son of Spion

  • "No, I said I was WORKING from home! Me ma's reading this, ya bastids!" Supporter of The Unbrarables. Worratit.
  • RAWK Betazoid
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 24,969
  • BAGs. 28 Years..What Would The Bullens Wall Say?
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28288 on: September 12, 2019, 12:34:36 am »
I think there has been analysis showing a lot of leave voters feel that things can't get worse for them. We've had austerity for god knows how long while the bankers still pick up stupefying bonuses. They've been whipped into a vote for change ( see also the BBC article why George Soros is being treated as public enemy number one). There's a belief that even if things do get worse then the ruling classes will suffer more.  I'm not sure racism is a main driver as much as xenophobia. Frottage and his followers got brexiteers to win the referendum coming from being a 100/1 shot. I don't think people are ready to let go of that for benefits they can't see. Or for the promises that project fear concoct. And for many they don't feel the downsides affect them. Queues at ports, so what? Lack of skilled labour, doesn't affect me. Even I personally find it hard to believe that essential medicines won't get through.  I forsee there being difficulty with food but not a huge shock. I guess we have had it cushy for a long time and there hasn't been a real disaster to show how much things could get fucked up. To my poor memory, the real events have been that failure of two power generators. Foot and mouth disease, the volcano cancelling flights. Maybe the beast from the east. All of which were problematic, but dealt with reasonably comfortably. The expectation is we do so again. From the remain point of view, even if the disruption were guaranteed to be minimal there seems to be no reason to do it.

It's all so messed up. We've had a decade of austerity that is pretty much Tory ideology anyway. The Banking crisis just gave them the excuse to forge ahead with it so brutally as they have done. You always know with a Tory government that it means cuts, cuts, and more cuts. It's what they do. It seems ridiculously ironic that people who want change seem to want more power for the clowns who are wrecking the country rather than less. The Tories and the bankers people are so angry with go hand in hand. I can't actually get my head around the idea that people think the ruling classes will suffer more. They so very rarely do. They are extremely good at looking after themselves and each other. It's always the less well-off and the poor who pick up the tab when push comes to shove.

Regarding racism and/or xenophobia, I find that they tend to also go hand in hand. Racism often being the expression of xenophobia. I get that many feel the downsides possibly won't affect them, but I still hate the idea that downsides are ok just so long as they don't affect you*. I think that's all part of the rampant selfishness that is engulfing society these days. The 'I'm alright, Jack' mentality so loved by Thatcherites. This country is so screwed up. No wonder many in Europe think most of us are backward-thinking loons.  :-\




*Not you personally.
The light that burns twice as bright, burns half as long, and you've burned so very, very brightly, Jürgen.

Offline Asam

  • has a mankini
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,883
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28289 on: September 12, 2019, 12:40:42 am »
And central to the whole problem with Brexit is that despite confirmation from the government itself, Brexiteers will not change their stance. You could tell them that the country will explode if we leave the European Union and they'll stick their fingers in their ears and say "the country voted to leave". They don't fucking listen. They're deluded and they think it will be worth it because we will have blue passports and wonky bananas. Three years on and I still haven't heard a plausible non-racist reason that the average person would want to leave the EU.

Nailed it

Offline Son of Spion

  • "No, I said I was WORKING from home! Me ma's reading this, ya bastids!" Supporter of The Unbrarables. Worratit.
  • RAWK Betazoid
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 24,969
  • BAGs. 28 Years..What Would The Bullens Wall Say?
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28290 on: September 12, 2019, 12:54:43 am »
The point I always try and make when speaking to others is that I don't think Leavers were necessarily stupid to vote Leave; they were, after all, lied to and manipulated by experts.

But they often are stupid if they continue to spout the same old nonsense that has been proven to be false, or to double down on their position when it has been shown to be wrong.

Mostly, however, I don't think Leavers are necessarily stupid, they just aren't prepared to look at the facts in the face. They are shielding themselves from the reality because they are afraid it will show them to have backed the wrong horse, and not everyone is strong enough to be able to admit that, or to admit that they let themselves be lied to and manipulated.

I think you are spot on here.

The people were manipulated, used, abused and lied to by experts in this very field for their own ends. There is no shame in falling for the lies of expert liars and for being manipulated by professional manipulators. But for me, the stupidity starts when the lies are exposed, the manipulators are outed as the users and abusers that they are, yet you still plough on with your Leave mantra regardless. What they thought they were voting for was never on the table. That was an illusion peddled by the likes of Frottage and Co.

The facts are, Leavers bought a Betamax when they really should have bought a VHS. They just won't admit they got it wrong after being horribly manipulated by frauds driven by self-interest.
The light that burns twice as bright, burns half as long, and you've burned so very, very brightly, Jürgen.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28291 on: September 12, 2019, 07:01:15 am »
I think you are spot on here.

The people were manipulated, used, abused and lied to by experts in this very field for their own ends. There is no shame in falling for the lies of expert liars and for being manipulated by professional manipulators. But for me, the stupidity starts when the lies are exposed, the manipulators are outed as the users and abusers that they are, yet you still plough on with your Leave mantra regardless. What they thought they were voting for was never on the table. That was an illusion peddled by the likes of Frottage and Co.

The facts are, Leavers bought a Betamax when they really should have bought a VHS. They just won't admit they got it wrong after being horribly manipulated by frauds driven by self-interest.

So you're saying they are stuck watching Gremlins and Terms of Endearment for the rest of their lives?
Better looking than Samie.

Offline jepovic

  • Only interested in the "prestigious" games, so won't be celebrating anything less.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,667
  • Meh sd f
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28292 on: September 12, 2019, 07:12:19 am »
Yeah leave voters fell for a lot of bulls,, and it wasn't actually about leaving the EU they told us, it was about feeling neglected by our politicians, how are politicians have ignored them and left these areas to stagnate.many were told they have nothing to loose so why not vote Brexit, things can't get worse after all, who made these arguments,?  the RIGHT WING TOLD THEM.the dickeheads fell for it hook line and sinker, even now they argue stop calling us stupid, we know what we voted for, we voted to leave the EU.
They have argued they are being ignored by our politicians and they took their anger out on the only people who have tried to improve their lives, The EU, subsidies for all the deprived areas of the UK.
Don't call them stupid though.
And the left wing said "uhmmm, maybe remain or, uhmmm, leave"

Offline rob1966

  • YORKIE bar-munching, hedgehog-squashing (well-)articulated road-hog-litter-bug. Sleeping With The Enemy. Has felt the wind and shed his anger..... did you know I drive a Jag? Cucking funt!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 46,263
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28293 on: September 12, 2019, 07:13:56 am »
Have any of the drivers even talked about EU Permits Rob.
It hardly gets mentioned now and it's a massive concern for Road Haulage and the country.
Only 5% of UK trucks who now enter the EU will be allowed into the EU after Brexit.
We have heard from countries like Turkey who have a CU and they tell us they get nowhere near the actually amount of Permits they want,  the Permits are only valid for 1 truck and run for months,they are all snapped up as soon as they are issued.


I've not spoken to any international drivers, so that kind of thing just passes them by. The only thing discussed was what placards needed to be on trailers when you are doing an international run, as they go from road to sea to road. While shipping notes were covered, nothing was mentioned, nor really applicable to the course, on what the customs changes will be like when running goods abroad.

One thing that did "whoosh" them all, was ADR is a Europe wide standard, but each country has their own domestic regulations. In the UK we drive on the Dangerous goods by road rules and only switch to ADR if running to Europe. The UK use different labels on the trailers carrying dangerous goods to what is used under ADR. I thought they said we all had to do what the EU says?
Jurgen, you made us laugh, you made us cry, you made Liverpool a bastion of invincibilty, now leave us on a high - YNWA

Offline PaulF

  • https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/paulfelce
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,648
  • Nothing feels as good as fat tastes.
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28294 on: September 12, 2019, 07:24:16 am »
We've booked to go to Disneyland Paris in mid November so I went to government site to see what we'd need. Thankfully , from what I can tell, a visa will only be needed for visits more than ninety days. However there was obvious uncertainty about anything else.
"All the lads have been talking about is walking out in front of the Kop, with 40,000 singing 'You'll Never Walk Alone'," Collins told BBC Radio Solent. "All the money in the world couldn't buy that feeling," he added.

Offline Groundskeeper Willie

  • Loves a good Meat Flute! Silent screaming fistpumper. Don't wake the kids! He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty chip! Mattis, den svenska pedanten! Pantless arse-barer not used to withdrawal.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,225
  • Klappa händerna när du är riktigt glad.
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28295 on: September 12, 2019, 07:51:24 am »
So Boris and his gang of c*nts are doing all this because they are in line to get done for breaking European tax laws?
Love Ren & Stimpy

Offline Circa1892

  • Real Madrid 0 - 1 Liverpool - Parc des Princes, 27th May 1981 Remember?... About as intimidating as Bambi.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,190
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28296 on: September 12, 2019, 08:03:04 am »
So Boris and his gang of c*nts are doing all this because they are in line to get done for breaking European tax laws?

A mixture of that and having bet on shorting the pound. And for Frottage and Banks it’s probably because their paymasters in Russia and the US far right want a weaker Europe.

Offline Groundskeeper Willie

  • Loves a good Meat Flute! Silent screaming fistpumper. Don't wake the kids! He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty chip! Mattis, den svenska pedanten! Pantless arse-barer not used to withdrawal.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,225
  • Klappa händerna när du är riktigt glad.
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28297 on: September 12, 2019, 08:12:14 am »
I just can't fathom how politicians have fucked the country over. I suspect everyone knows the best for the COUNTRY is to stay, but they are putting personal gains over the good of the people. They should all rot in jail. And for the opposition to standl meekly by (from what I gather), is equally abhorrent.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 08:19:47 am by Groundskeeper Willie »
Love Ren & Stimpy

Offline KillieRed

  • Jaro a.k.a. goatjumpingqueuefucker
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,209
  • Nemo me impune lacessit.
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28298 on: September 12, 2019, 08:22:43 am »
We've booked to go to Disneyland Paris in mid November so I went to government site to see what we'd need. Thankfully , from what I can tell, a visa will only be needed for visits more than ninety days. However there was obvious uncertainty about anything else.

I`d take some ponchos  ;)
The best way to scare a Tory is to read and get rich” - Idles.

Offline thaddeus

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,707
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28299 on: September 12, 2019, 08:37:06 am »
Radio 5 on top impartiality form again this morning.

Invite two guests on to discuss Brexit and YellowHammer; person A claims YellowHammer is made up as nobody knows what might happen and that we should just "get on with it", person B has no opinions on the matter despite being repeatedly invited into the conversation.

To be fair to the presenters they tried to facilitate a discussion (although to their detriment they happily went along with the "nobody knows what might happen line").  The researchers who found the guests are apparently working off the same instructions as those roving reporters who trawl the market towns during working hours to find the most disaffected Brexiteers they can.

Edit: They are constantly repeating that this is a worst-case document when they know full well it was the base case until it went through the PR machine.  Andy McDonnell pointed that out but was shot down by Nicky Campbell as just quibbling over semantics.  I'd think the difference between the base case - this is likely to happen - and the worst case - this is unlikely to happen - is worth pointing out!
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 08:42:22 am by thaddeus »

Offline Zeb

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,571
  • Justice.
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28300 on: September 12, 2019, 09:10:39 am »
Most infuriates me because there is the expertise there willing and available to give an apolitical take on the facts. Just not as convenient for 24 hour rolling news coverage as pulling on randos, or political talking heads, with VERY STRONG OPINIONS. Not that even that excuses some of the guff on the supposed flagship of Today.

Not sure that's enough to convince of a positive case for alternatives to 'dumb shit which sounds good' all the same.

-----

Purely for a different perspective, Garvan Walshe (think he's still a Tory remainer) writes about the future options for Brexiteers at Conservative Home.

Spoiler
Quote
Until this week I had thought that Brexit had become inevitable. The referendum victory, though narrow, was clear, and those who continued to oppose Brexit lacked the tactical sophistication to press their case successfully.

That’s started to change. The campaign to take Britain out of the EU is now at risk of failing altogether. But the manner of its failure, the scorched earth tactics of its more extreme partisans, and the increasing radicalisation of the Remain electorate (reflected in the Liberal Democrats’ tactically astute shift in position to direct revocation of Article 50, without a referendum) could cause a significant portion of the public to feel completely alienated from the political system.

So although I opposed Brexit, I still don’t think it should currently be reversed. Around half of Remainers still see EU membership in transactional terms: but David Cameron tested this idea of it to destruction. Many of the rest have turned into pro-European partisans, but out of opposition to Brexit, rather than love of European integration.

Should a stable majority of the British public come to understand that the European Union is a project of political integration that involves the nation states of Europe sharing sovereignty, then the UK should rejoin. But cancelling Brexit now would be bad for both the UK, which would find itself kicking against the loveless marriage to which it had returned, and the EU, which would have an unhappy and divided Britain to contend with.

The Brexiteers have failed internationally because they overestimated Britain’s power.  And they failed domestically because they mistook a moral argument for a political one.

Their claim is that winning the referendum has created an unanswerable case for having some kind, indeed any kind, of Brexit. Both sides of the referendum campaign said that they would abide by the result, and that moral duty, they believe, is sufficiently strong that it should override other considerations, including Britain’s traditions as a representative, not a direct, democracy.

But moral claims on their own do not a political strategy make. Brexiteers needed to convert their victory into a broad and lasting consensus in favour of Brexit. It had appeared that May had planned to do just that when she became the Conservative leader in 2016, but she changed tack during her Tory conference speech that year in pursuit of a very specific hard-right fever dream that came unstuck the following July.

Its effects were to deprive May of a majority, force her to rely on the DUP, whose demands proved incompatible with those of the EU, as well as the need to avoid giving the SNP an argument to demand the same status as Northern Ireland, and resulted in the Withdrawal Agreement, which couldn’t pass the Commons, disastrous EU election results, the rise of the Brexit Party and her resignation and replacement by Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson.

Johnson inherited a war on two fronts — against the Brexit Party and the LibDems — and devised a sort of Schlieffen Plan to get the Conservative Party through. Complete Brexit by October, then pivot to the kind of One Nation Toryism he professed as mayor, to give a country tired of Brexit and austerity something to unite around.

Over the summer, it looked like he had maintained just enough ambiguity about his intentions to keep his opponents divided. Instead he united them by proroguing Parliament and horrified the party by taking the whip from 21 rebels, sparking the resignation of Amber Rudd, his own brother Jo, and even the Duke of Wellington. Whatever the Conservative Party is these days, it doesn’t have space for the descendants of Britain’s national heroes. Much of this is attributed to his senior adviser Dominic Cummings, who combines the flexibility of the younger Moltke with the defence-minded attitude of Marshal Foch.

Unable to force his policy through a parliament in which he doesn’t have a majority, having reduced that majority further by his purge, he has been outmaneouvred by Jeremy Corbyn; his bid to call an election twice blocked by the Commons.

Situation excellente says Cummings, j’attaque.

The quite obvious plan, as is clear from adverts promising a “People versus the Politicians” election, is to reactivate enough anger from Leave voters to win a parliamentary majority against a divided opposition. It’s a plan with superficial possibility. Some pollsters, particularly YouGov, are showing a sizeable Conservative lead. Others give a much closer result.

The fever dream to which I refer is that the Conservative Party will somehow extend its reach into the northern working class while still holding on to its urban professional vote in the cities and suburbs.  Stirring up anger at the establishment and fear of Corbyn worked during the referendum, where Labour essentially gave up campaigning, but failed in the general election when it was able to hold onto their core vote. It would be quite a gamble, albeit in keeping with World War I inspired strategy, to repeat the 2017 plan two years later.

As I write, the Scottish courts have ruled Johnson’s prorogation of Parliament unlawful, prompting Number Ten to issue an attack on “Scottish” judges, questioning their independence. This latest Fochian outburst is highly unwise and should not have come from a government of a party that still calls itself the Conservative and Unionist Party.

The Supreme Court, which hears the appeal next week, has three options. It can declare prorogation lawful in both, allowing the SNP to say “English” judges overruled their traditions. It could declare it unlawful in both, which would, insofar as it upheld the Scottish verdict, require the Supreme Court to rule in effect that the Prime Minister had misled the Queen; or, it could produce the even more uncomfortable verdict that prorogation might have been lawful in England and Wales but unlawful in Scotland.

Also yesterday, a poll of Northern Ireland was released by Lord Ashcroft showing majority support there for the backstop, and an essentially evenly split vote on reunification with the Republic (51–49 in favour). The even split is maintained thanks to a majority of older voters continuing to support the Union. The youngest age group of voters breaks 60–40 in favour of a United Ireland.

The Johnson Government’s strategy of heightening the contradictions has so far been an unqualified failure. Prorogation united the opposition to require him to seek an extension if he stays in office. The attempts to call an election failed. The removal of the whip from 21 Tory MPs reinforced their determination to defy Number Ten. Polling for the election itself increasingly suggests it would produce another hung parliament

The Prime Minister needs to accept this failure and change tack. Leaving without a deal is no longer possible. Parliament will it. Substantive modifications to the deal are also out of the question. The deal itself allows for a wide variety of Brexits, from Canadian-style free trade to a Norway-style membership of the Single Market.  It would allow the Prime Minister to pivot to the One Nation Conservatism needed to win centrist voters back from the LibDems, and of course, it would allow him to tell Brexit Party supporters that we had left the EU.

The Spartans who consider this capitulation should think very carefully. Theresa May said there were three options: this deal, no deal, or no Brexit. The effect of prorogation has been to take away the option of no deal by constitutional means. The choice left is now this deal, no Brexit, or no United Kingdom.
[close]

He's wrong about 'no deal' having been taken away - just hopefully delayed - but, perhaps unsurprisingly, his readers don't want to contest that when they can tell him to 'fuck off and join the Lib Dems' (or words to the same effect).
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 09:22:00 am by Zeb »
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Online Ghost Town

  • RAWK snitch. Bands won't play no more. Too much fighting on the dance floor! Probably one of only three people who knows the meaning of "depuratory", the Suzy Dent-esque freakshow! Hannoying homunculus.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,899
  • mundus vult decipi
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28301 on: September 12, 2019, 09:30:24 am »
Thought this was decent. Surely a piss-take of the Daily Mail's overheated rhetoric?

"Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth, and every other man has a right to knock him down for it."
Samuel (not Glen) Johnson, as reported by James (not Joey) Boswell. They must have foreseen RAWK ;D

Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Batshit fucker and Chief Yuletide Porcine Voyeur
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,950
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28302 on: September 12, 2019, 09:39:39 am »
The point I always try and make when speaking to others is that I don't think Leavers were necessarily stupid to vote Leave; they were, after all, lied to and manipulated by experts.

But they often are stupid if they continue to spout the same old nonsense that has been proven to be false, or to double down on their position when it has been shown to be wrong.

Mostly, however, I don't think Leavers are necessarily stupid, they just aren't prepared to look at the facts in the face. They are shielding themselves from the reality because they are afraid it will show them to have backed the wrong horse, and not everyone is strong enough to be able to admit that, or to admit that they let themselves be lied to and manipulated.
Yeah, like I said, stupid. ;)

Actually, I mostly agree with you. In the past, I too have argued for engagement. But, in the vast majority of cases, those who are turntable have now already turned. For the most part, the remainder are stupid, or - if you prefer - stubborn, scared manipulated, etc. Mostly, the difference is just semantics. After all, one reasonable definition of stupidity might be: easily manipulated by obvious, easily checked lies; or too stubborn to reflect upon a previous position in the face of new facts. We could call it 'human nature', but human nature includes stupid too.
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

Offline naka

  • Lennart Skoglund Ultra
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,637
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28303 on: September 12, 2019, 09:42:12 am »
Yeah leave voters fell for a lot of bulls,, and it wasn't actually about leaving the EU they told us, it was about feeling neglected by our politicians, how are politicians have ignored them and left these areas to stagnate.many were told they have nothing to loose so why not vote Brexit, things can't get worse after all, who made these arguments,?  the RIGHT WING TOLD THEM.the dickeheads fell for it hook line and sinker, even now they argue stop calling us stupid, we know what we voted for, we voted to leave the EU.
They have argued they are being ignored by our politicians and they took their anger out on the only people who have tried to improve their lives, The EU, subsidies for all the deprived areas of the UK.
Don't call them stupid though.

genuine question as am looking in from the outside regarding the Unions( not a member), what are Unite`s and the CWC rationale for leaving the EU when they know the effect it will have on their membership?

Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Batshit fucker and Chief Yuletide Porcine Voyeur
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,950
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28304 on: September 12, 2019, 09:51:26 am »
Thought this was decent. Surely a piss-take of the Daily Mail's overheated rhetoric?


It may be a parody of the Mail headline from a couple of years ago, but I do not think it defensible to portray court decisions in this manner. If the publication genuinely feels there is something screw-whiff about a court decision, report the public and expert reaction and why people they think that. Similarly, do not take purely partisan view when the decision goes your way. It is not a footy match.
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

Offline classycarra

  • The Left Disonourable Chuntering Member For Scousepool.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 30,396
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28305 on: September 12, 2019, 09:56:41 am »
It may be a parody of the Mail headline from a couple of years ago, but I do not think it defensible to portray court decisions in this manner. If the publication genuinely feels there is something screw-whiff about a court decision, report the public and expert reaction and why people they think that. Similarly, do not take purely partisan view when the decision goes your way. It is not a footy match.

I felt the same. It's a bit embarrassing. Always uncomfortable with partisanship, outside of my football team.

I can't get on board with that kind of dumbing down of news, even if it's being favourable about a ruling I agree with. But it's their call, as we have a free press, and they're not as embarrassing as the right wingers not reporting this on the front page and then trying to discredit. Still,

Offline ShakaHislop

  • Shocktrooper of the Vinny Cable Nasties
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,790
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28306 on: September 12, 2019, 10:03:13 am »
I just can't fathom how politicians have fucked the country over. I suspect everyone knows the best for the COUNTRY is to stay, but they are putting personal gains over the good of the people. They should all rot in jail. And for the opposition to standl meekly by (from what I gather), is equally abhorrent.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35616946

There's a list of names in the article. I find it hard to believe that enough MPs of that time have since stepped down/lost their seat in order to significantly change the split portrayed in that image.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Batshit fucker and Chief Yuletide Porcine Voyeur
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,950
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28307 on: September 12, 2019, 10:12:11 am »


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35616946

There's a list of names in the article. I find it hard to believe that enough MPs of that time have since stepped down/lost their seat in order to significantly change the split portrayed in that image.
That chart cannot be right. There are loads more WA-type Brexiteers (including Corbyn(ites)) not accounted for there.
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

Offline ShakaHislop

  • Shocktrooper of the Vinny Cable Nasties
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,790
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28308 on: September 12, 2019, 10:18:41 am »
That chart cannot be right. There are loads more WA-type Brexiteers (including Corbyn(ites)) not accounted for there.

It's a chart from the day before the referendum.

That there may be many on the Remain list who are saying they would now back Brexit, I believe illustrates the view that Groundskeeper Willie and I share that many MPs aren't putting the national interest first in their post-referendum approach to Brexit.

Offline ShakaHislop

  • Shocktrooper of the Vinny Cable Nasties
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,790
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28309 on: September 12, 2019, 10:22:32 am »
"Only middle-class Remoaners shop there" said a pro-Brexit blogger today somewhere, probably and who will be invited on BBC and/or Sky's paper reviews in due course.

John Lewis in no-deal Brexit warning as it falls to a loss

Quote
John Lewis has fallen to a half-year loss and says a no-deal Brexit will have a "significant" impact.

The retailer said while it had prepared for no deal, it could not fully offset the effect and the impact on fresh food supplies was a concern.

The stores group, which also owns Waitrose, reported a loss of £25.9m, down from a profit of £0.8m last year.

Sales slipped amid "difficult" trading conditions, which were not helped by "subdued consumer confidence".

John Lewis pointed to "soft demand" for its home and electrical goods as a particular weak spot.

The partnership, which normally makes most of its profits in the second half of the year, said it had been making preparations for a no-deal Brexit, including building up stocks "where that is sensible".

However, the partnership's chairman, Charlie Mayfield, said: "Should the UK leave the EU without a deal, we expect the effect to be significant and it will not be possible to mitigate that impact.

"Brexit continues to weigh on consumer sentiment at a crucial time for the sector as we enter the peak trading period."

He said the group was worried about the impact of a no-deal Brexit on fresh food supplies and consumer confidence.

"Ultimately, that could have a knock-on impact on profits," he said. "That could be significant."

Salary increases and an IT overhaul also ate into the group's profits, John Lewis said.

Amid what it described as a "weak grocery market" sales at Waitrose slipped slightly to £3.4bn in the six months to 27 July.

However, the supermarket chain also reported a 10.7% growth in online sales, which the partnership said was "well ahead of the market".

At the John Lewis department store business, total sales were £2.1bn, down 1.8%.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49672393

Online filopastry

  • seldom posts but often delivers
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,756
  • Let me tell you a story.........
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28310 on: September 12, 2019, 10:23:44 am »
It's a chart from the day before the referendum.

That there may be many on the Remain list who are saying they would now back Brexit, I believe illustrates the view that Groundskeeper Willie and I share that many MPs aren't putting the national interest first in their post-referendum approach to Brexit.

A lot of Tories went "Remain" because the leadership was for Remain (they probably also thought it would win), and have flipped to following the leadership on this ever since, it is a party which isn't short of careerists

Online filopastry

  • seldom posts but often delivers
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,756
  • Let me tell you a story.........
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28311 on: September 12, 2019, 10:30:13 am »
It's incredible how successful the Leave camp has been at portraying the vote as a Leave (working class ) v Remain (entitled middle class elitists), when any vague analysis of the evidence would show that is a load of bollocks.

Get a representative smaple of older middle class voters from across the country together and you will find a lot of them voted Leave, a lot of people have retired on healthy pensions and are very comfortable economically and still voted Leave.

I don't doubt that for some working class voters, they voted Leave as a protest against what they see as a country that isn't working for them, against falling living standards and austerity, but you can't ignore a large group of Leavers for whom the only issue with austerity was that it didn't go far enough. I suspect only one of these groups is going to be happy with how Brexit eventually plays out.

Offline Red-Soldier

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,636
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28312 on: September 12, 2019, 10:37:25 am »
Johnson denies lying to the Queen  :lmao :lmao :lmao

Offline Jshooters

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,759
  • Occasionally inspirational
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28313 on: September 12, 2019, 10:37:55 am »
Tories taking a leaf out of Trump's playbook.......'Many people'

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-news-latest-boris-johnson-scottish-parliament-court-prorogue-kwasi-kwarteng-a9102081.html

Quote
Asked about the Scottish court's judgement, Mr Kwarteng told the BBC: "Many people are saying - I'm not saying this - but, many people... are saying the judges are biased. The judges are getting involved in politics.

"I think that they are impartial, but I'm saying that many people, many Leave voters, many people up and down the country, are beginning to question the partiality of judges. That's just a fact."

Edit:Try reading it in Trump's voice  :lmao
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 10:40:06 am by Jshooters »
Believer

Offline Iska

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,136
  • The only club that matters
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28314 on: September 12, 2019, 10:44:32 am »
Quote
Around half of Remainers still see EU membership in transactional terms: but David Cameron tested this idea of it to destruction. Many of the rest have turned into pro-European partisans, but out of opposition to Brexit, rather than love of European integration.
I found this interesting, because I’d never thought about it in these terms before.  If anything I’d say my journey since the referendum has been the opposite - I’m now entirely accustomed to thinking about EU membership as a great deal, in fact the best possible deal, for Britain.

At the same time I also passionately want integration, for the obvious reason that brexit has shown we need to be locked into it lest anyone try to ask the question again.

Do I identify as a member of a pan-European body politic though?  I’d have to say no, basically because I don’t really consider such a thing to exist - and yet, I do to the extent that Europe is a single entity contra external, global threats/opportunities.  In that context the UK being better off alone is madness.  Do I feel Europe has the potential to be such a threat to the UK?  Well I honestly couldn’t say ‘no’, given history, but it’s as far as could possibly be and the way to address the possibility is constant dialogue i.e. being in the EU.  But I couldn’t say we shouldn’t have an escape route in extremis.

So I do see, not an inconsistency, but the lack of an overlap, between the way he puts it there and the position that I’d personally feel.  And yet the EU is the only game in town and further integration is still necessary.  The questions ‘how much?’ and ‘how fast?’ are legitimate, but they’re ones to be addressed from the inside, and certainly not through what the UK is doing now.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Batshit fucker and Chief Yuletide Porcine Voyeur
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,950
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28315 on: September 12, 2019, 10:53:08 am »
"Only middle-class Remoaners shop there" said a pro-Brexit blogger today somewhere, probably and who will be invited on BBC and/or Sky's paper reviews in due course.

John Lewis in no-deal Brexit warning as it falls to a loss

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49672393
John Lewis is a class act. Especially when we compare it to the retailers who are killing the high street (Amazon). It would be real shame if it went under. Hopefully, the retail sector will have re-balanced itself before JL goes. It is a battle of the fittest / most efficient, I guess. Hopefully, 'quality shopping experience' comes into the mix somewhere.
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Batshit fucker and Chief Yuletide Porcine Voyeur
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,950
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28316 on: September 12, 2019, 10:58:43 am »
Tories taking a leaf out of Trump's playbook.......'Many people'

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-news-latest-boris-johnson-scottish-parliament-court-prorogue-kwasi-kwarteng-a9102081.html

Edit:Try reading it in Trump's voice  :lmao
He doesn't appear to be an imbecile. So, I guess he's just an absolute c*nt. This shit has to stop.
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

Offline classycarra

  • The Left Disonourable Chuntering Member For Scousepool.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 30,396
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28317 on: September 12, 2019, 11:04:11 am »
He doesn't appear to be an imbecile. So, I guess he's just an absolute c*nt. This shit has to stop.
You obviously didn't see him posing with a digital countdown clock and a poorly worded sentence. He is a raving imbecile, to go with a shithouse c*nt who is too scared to say what he thinks.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Batshit fucker and Chief Yuletide Porcine Voyeur
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,950
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28318 on: September 12, 2019, 11:06:22 am »
So I do see, not an inconsistency, but the lack of an overlap, between the way he puts it there and the position that I’d personally feel.  And yet the EU is the only game in town and further integration is still necessary.  The questions ‘how much?’ and ‘how fast?’ are legitimate, but they’re ones to be addressed from the inside, and certainly not through what the UK is doing now.
Well, with UK out of the club, and no veto, it will be powerless to stop further integration is what the 27 wish to follow. And when the UK does join in again (it is inevitable - though it probably will take years), it likely will have no vote, now powers, no veto. And it will have to take whatever further integration has occurred in the interim (and future). The central argument of 'taking back control' is so obviously wrong, those who believe it must be - on the whole - simpletons. How can so many people be so blind the something this obvious?
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

Online Red Beret

  • Yellow Beret. Wants to sit in the Lobster Pot. Fat-fingered. Key. Boa. Rd. Kille. R. tonunlick! Soggy Knickers King. Bed-Exiting / Grunting / Bending Down / Cum Face Champion 2023.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 51,330
Re: Brexit - Operation YellowHammer - Item 15. Things that make you go uhmmm
« Reply #28319 on: September 12, 2019, 11:08:56 am »
Johnson denies lying to the Queen  :lmao :lmao :lmao

Well he can hardly admit it, can he??
I don't always visit Lobster Pot.  But when I do. I sit.

Popcorn's Art