Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"

[24/7]

If only there was even a glimmer of a possibility of a Lab/Lib[Dem] coalition.........but I've been saying that since the 80s so........

[No666]

I am no monarchist but how exactly ? What is she supposed to do ? She is advised by her PM on what to do and it is practice that she accepts that advice. All that has happened is it transpires that the Queen was lied to. I am not sure what else she is supposed to do other than doing some ninja shit on Johnson or ordering one of the guards to shoot him because he was unkempt

It's not a question of what she was supposed to do to stop it. The episode simply provides proof that she is purely ceremonial and therefore functionally useless.

[Red Beret]

I am no monarchist but how exactly ? What is she supposed to do ? She is advised by her PM on what to do and it is practice that she accepts that advice. All that has happened is it transpires that the Queen was lied to. I am not sure what else she is supposed to do other than doing some ninja shit on Johnson or ordering one of the guards to shoot him because he was unkempt

She could go public with her concerns - assuming she has any.

And before anybody says the Monarchy is supposed to be above politics, Johnson has pretty much dragged her into this mess by lying to HM over his reasons for proroguing Parliament.

[west_london_red]

She could go public with her concerns - assuming she has any.

And before anybody says the Monarchy is supposed to be above politics, Johnson has pretty much dragged her into this mess by lying to HM over his reasons for proroguing Parliament.

The follow on question is would the Queen have refused to act on Johnson’s advice if he had told her what his actual motive was? I suspect not such is the keenness to stay out of politics but I doubt we’ll ever know

[gamble]

If only there was even a glimmer of a possibility of a Lab/Lib[Dem] coalition.........but I've been saying that since the 80s so........

They had their chance in 2010. They chose the tories. They sold out and sold the country with it. fuck em.

[24/7]

They had their chance in 2010. They chose the tories. They sold out and sold the country with it. fuck em.

Yeah *sigh*..........straws, clutching @........

[Rush 82]

They had their chance in 2010. They chose the tories. They sold out and sold the country with it. fuck em.

Are those who made that decision still around?

[Red Beret]

The follow on question is would the Queen have refused to act on Johnson’s advice if he had told her what his actual motive was? I suspect not such is the keenness to stay out of politics but I doubt we’ll ever know

Correct.  But the fact is that whether she said yay or nay, Johnson involved her in politics the moment he lied to his Queen. 

I wonder if she was at all aware that his intentions were dodgy from the start?  I mean she's old but she's not stupid - she watches the news herself.  Was the lie meant to "protect" her, and did she know the real reason from the start.  Could really dive down the rabbit hole with this stuff.

Personally I think he told her the real reason, but that they agreed to publicly give a different reason so if it came out they could at least claim she was misled.  Johnson probably thought it would come out - but maybe he didn't realise it would unravel this quickly.

[gamble]

Are those who made that decision still around?

same sh*t, different day - the new leader ruled out a pact whilst corbyn is the leader, even in the case of a hung parliament. a smart politician would at least keep all options on the table

[vivabobbygraham]

The màce represents the monarch in parliament. The Queen is only a symbol herself. So the mace is a symbol of a symbol. We should just stick with the mace  really, its a lot cheaper - tin of brasso once a year, job's a good'n.

 

[vivabobbygraham]

I am no monarchist but how exactly ? What is she supposed to do ? She is advised by her PM on what to do and it is practice that she accepts that advice. All that has happened is it transpires that the Queen was lied to. I am not sure what else she is supposed to do other than doing some ninja shit on Johnson or ordering one of the guards to shoot him because he was unkempt

Excellent. Some boss stuff on this thread at the mo...

[Andy @ Allerton!]

2016 - the easiest deal in history.

Sunny uplands. No downsides. No worries. No effort, just everything we ever wanted without trying..

[AndyMuller]

Correct.  But the fact is that whether she said yay or nay, Johnson involved her in politics the moment he lied to his Queen. 

I wonder if she was at all aware that his intentions were dodgy from the start?  I mean she's old but she's not stupid - she watches the news herself.  Was the lie meant to "protect" her, and did she know the real reason from the start.  Could really dive down the rabbit hole with this stuff.

Personally I think he told her the real reason, but that they agreed to publicly give a different reason so if it came out they could at least claim she was misled.  Johnson probably thought it would come out - but maybe he didn't realise it would unravel this quickly.

Fuck the queen and the whole royal family.

[Snail]

Correct.  But the fact is that whether she said yay or nay, Johnson involved her in politics the moment he lied to his Queen. 

I wonder if she was at all aware that his intentions were dodgy from the start?  I mean she's old but she's not stupid - she watches the news herself.  Was the lie meant to "protect" her, and did she know the real reason from the start.  Could really dive down the rabbit hole with this stuff.

Personally I think he told her the real reason, but that they agreed to publicly give a different reason so if it came out they could at least claim she was misled.  Johnson probably thought it would come out - but maybe he didn't realise it would unravel this quickly.

At least all the furore over her dirty nonce c*nt of a son has died down, eh.

[Robinred]

I think the Scottish courts’ decision is another gift to Cummings. He and Johnson are being seen as ‘losing’ time after time, which is apparently humiliating.

Except it all plays into their narrative and strategy: ‘The will of the people’; “We voted leave”, ‘Democracy isn’t being served’, and so on. A butcher interviewed in his shop in Leeds summed up what I strongly suspect is a widely held view, “I normally vote Labour but this time I’ll either vote Nigel Frottage or Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson or whoever wants to get us out of Europe, because Watson and Jeremy Corbyn are just useless, they do not believe in democracy and the will of the people”.

Enough to make you weep, but that level of entrenched thinking is echoed whenever Vox Pops is used. And it’s depressing to consider that it’s either very prevalent, or the BBC are complicit in unbalanced reporting.

Then there’s McCluskey at the TUC conference telling the BBC reporter how marginalised and delusional Tom Watson has become, for having the temerity to hold a point of view suggesting the shortfall in support for Labour in every poll, could be closed if Labour had a clear Remain policy. McCluskey makes me angrier than virtually anyone else on the hard left; he’s a thoroughly despicable man.

[Iska]

The queen as a blank, disinterested moral mother-of-the-nation figure is actually a really useful device here though.  Her being deceived into using her power is outrageous in quite a different way from, say, Johnson using clever procedures to fuck everyone over is outrageous.  You don’t have to be on Team Remain to be disgusted at it.

[Kashinoda]

I think the Scottish courts’ decision is another gift to Cummings. He and Johnson are being seen as ‘losing’ time after time, which is apparently humiliating.

Except it all plays into their narrative and strategy: ‘The will of the people’; “We voted leave”, ‘Democracy isn’t being served’, and so on. A butcher interviewed in his shop in Leeds summed up what I strongly suspect is a widely held view, “I normally vote Labour but this time I’ll either vote Nigel Frottage or Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson or whoever wants to get us out of Europe, because Watson and Jeremy Corbyn are just useless, they do not believe in democracy and the will of the people”.

Enough to make you weep, but that level of entrenched thinking is echoed whenever Vox Pops is used. And it’s depressing to consider that it’s either very prevalent, or the BBC are complicit in unbalanced reporting.

Then there’s McCluskey at the TUC conference telling the BBC reporter how marginalised and delusional Tom Watson has become, for having the temerity to hold a point of view suggesting the shortfall in support for Labour in every poll, could be closed if Labour had a clear Remain policy. McCluskey makes me angrier than virtually anyone else on the hard left; he’s a thoroughly despicable man.

May campaigned on 'Brexit means Brexit' and lost her majority, we had the same thing back then with traditional Labour voters voting Tory to get Brexit.

What wasn't really documented or suspected beforehand were the traditional Tory voters who switched to Labour because of their opposition to Brexit. Kensington was the epitome of this switch.

Vox pops don't really tell us much, but it's anyone's guess as to how this finishes. Whenever the next GE is called it's going to be another Brexit GE. The issue is rather than leave and remain being split between Tory and Labour it looks increasingly likely that there's going to be a weird split of Tory, Labour, Dems, Brexit and SNP.

[Wabaloolah]

If and it's a very big if the Supreme Court agrees and deems the prerogation illegal then Johnson's position becomes untenable as it means he will have deliberately misled the Queen for political advantage.

He will have no choice but to resign. Interesting days ahead

[rob1966]

I'm no longer sure that I want a second referendum - every day I realise that the public in this country are thick as pig shit. They have no idea of reality and just want to blame the EU for everything. I'd rather the MP's just said fuck off we aren't doing it, I would not trust the general public to go get my tea from the chinese, never mind decide the future of my kids.

It'll be like the Truman Show, cancel Brexit, execute Frottage and Johnson and the thick c*nts will just forget all about it.

[Jiminy Cricket]

They had their chance in 2010. They chose the tories. They sold out and sold the country with it. fuck em.

The numbers really did not add up. The government would have only lasted weeks. I suspect, deep down, you know this.

[Wabaloolah]

They had their chance in 2010. They chose the tories. They sold out and sold the country with it. fuck em.

they really didn't, they didn't have the numbers to make it work. There weren't enough Labour and Lib Dem MPs to form a majority. They also would have needed the SDLP (not a problem as they took the Labour whip anyway), and Scottish and Welsh Nationalists and the Greens and it would have given a majority of around one or two seats.

It would not have been stable, would have tottered along for a few months before an inevitable General Election and a likely Try landslide.

They should not have gone in with the Tories though, Clegg made a huge political mistake there for a few years of being in the limelight. They should have offered a less formal confidence and supply arrangement on a bill by bill basis. Had that happened then the Tory outright win in 2015 would not have happened as the Lib Dem meltdown would have been less severe.

Corbyn, Miliband and Brexit have all been consequences of Clegg's ineptitude

[royhendo]

I guess we’ll find out how independent the Supreme Court is.

Interesting times indeed.

[Wabaloolah]

I'm no longer sure that I want a second referendum - every day I realise that the public in this country are thick as pig shit. They have no idea of reality and just want to blame the EU for everything. I'd rather the MP's just said fuck off we aren't doing it, I would not trust the general public to go get my tea from the chinese, never mind decide the future of my kids.

It'll be like the Truman Show, cancel Brexit, execute Frottage and Johnson and the thick c*nts will just forget all about it.

Brexit won't happen, the longer this goes on the more confident I am of it not happening. I have been saying this for a long time too. Nothing I have seen yet causes me to think I am wrong.

Whether it's due to a 2nd referendum or straight revocation, it won't happen

[Jiminy Cricket]

I think the Scottish courts’ decision is another gift to Cummings. He and Johnson are being seen as ‘losing’ time after time, which is apparently humiliating.

Except it all plays into their narrative and strategy: ‘The will of the people’; “We voted leave”, ‘Democracy isn’t being served’, and so on. A butcher interviewed in his shop in Leeds summed up what I strongly suspect is a widely held view, “I normally vote Labour but this time I’ll either vote Nigel Frottage or Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson or whoever wants to get us out of Europe, because Watson and Jeremy Corbyn are just useless, they do not believe in democracy and the will of the people”.

Enough to make you weep, but that level of entrenched thinking is echoed whenever Vox Pops is used. And it’s depressing to consider that it’s either very prevalent, or the BBC are complicit in unbalanced reporting.

Then there’s McCluskey at the TUC conference telling the BBC reporter how marginalised and delusional Tom Watson has become, for having the temerity to hold a point of view suggesting the shortfall in support for Labour in every poll, could be closed if Labour had a clear Remain policy. McCluskey makes me angrier than virtually anyone else on the hard left; he’s a thoroughly despicable man.

Probably just laziness/shitness. They go out in town centres in the middle of day: it will be a skewed demographic. And then, being shit journalists/editors, they go for the most puerile nonsense.

[Wabaloolah]

I guess we’ll find out how independent the Supreme Court is.

Interesting times indeed.

that's the biggest concern, the likelihood is they'll overturn the decision as a political one but it's not guaranteed. Might depend who the judges are

I guess the government could appeal to the European court if the Supreme Court rules against them! Oh the irony... 🤣🤣

[Machae]

I'm no longer sure that I want a second referendum - every day I realise that the public in this country are thick as pig shit. They have no idea of reality and just want to blame the EU for everything. I'd rather the MP's just said fuck off we aren't doing it, I would not trust the general public to go get my tea from the chinese, never mind decide the future of my kids.

It'll be like the Truman Show, cancel Brexit, execute Frottage and Johnson and the thick c*nts will just forget all about it.

All these vox pops are just for a 'balanced' debate. If there were another referendum then I'm pretty sure Remain would win. This is why the Brexiteers are so against mentioning a 2nd referendum. No one could believe they won in the first place.

[filopastry]

Europe Elects @EuropeElects

4m
UK, Kantar poll:

CON-ECR: 38% (-4)
LAB-S&D: 24% (-4)
LDEM-RE: 20% (+5)
BREX-NI: 7% (+2)
SNP-G/EFA: 4%
GREENS-G/EFA: 3%
UKIP-ID: 1% (+1)
ChUK-RE: 1%
PC-G/EFA: 1% (+1)

+/- vs. 15-19 August 2019

Field work: 5-9 September 2019

UK (Northern Ireland), Lord Ashcroft poll:

Irish Unification Referendum

Join the Irish Republic: 51% (+4)
Stay in the UK: 49% (-4)

+/- vs. June 2018

Sample size: 1,542
Fieldwork:  30/08/19-02/09/19

Chart: Lord Ashcroft polls

[Wabaloolah]

All these vox pops are just for a 'balanced' debate. If there were another referendum then I'm pretty sure Remain would win. This is why the Brexiteers are so against mentioning a 2nd referendum. No one could believe they won in the first place.

spot on, if they thought they'd win it, they would be all for it

[Snail]

Brexit won't happen, the longer this goes on the more confident I am of it not happening. I have been saying this for a long time too. Nothing I have seen yet causes me to think I am wrong.

Whether it's due to a 2nd referendum or straight revocation, it won't happen

I wish I shared your confidence. This has gone beyond Brexit now, our “government” is accusing the courts of bias and painting this as The People vs Remainers. It’s straight out of the Nazi handbook and I’m more concerned today than I ever have been.

[royhendo]

that's the biggest concern, the likelihood is they'll overturn the decision as a political one but it's not guaranteed. Might depend who the judges are

I guess the government could appeal to the European court if the Supreme Court rules against them! Oh the irony... 🤣🤣

No there’s no further recourse I don’t think. Siân? Corky?

The establishment is the establishment. I won’t be surprised if they overturn it.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I think the Scottish courts’ decision is another gift to Cummings. He and Johnson are being seen as ‘losing’ time after time, which is apparently humiliating.

Except it all plays into their narrative and strategy: ‘The will of the people’; “We voted leave”, ‘Democracy isn’t being served’, and so on. A butcher interviewed in his shop in Leeds summed up what I strongly suspect is a widely held view, “I normally vote Labour but this time I’ll either vote Nigel Frottage or Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson or whoever wants to get us out of Europe, because Watson and Jeremy Corbyn are just useless, they do not believe in democracy and the will of the people”.

Enough to make you weep, but that level of entrenched thinking is echoed whenever Vox Pops is used. And it’s depressing to consider that it’s either very prevalent, or the BBC are complicit in unbalanced reporting.

Then there’s McCluskey at the TUC conference telling the BBC reporter how marginalised and delusional Tom Watson has become, for having the temerity to hold a point of view suggesting the shortfall in support for Labour in every poll, could be closed if Labour had a clear Remain policy. McCluskey makes me angrier than virtually anyone else on the hard left; he’s a thoroughly despicable man.

You'll be able to laugh once that dickhead is out of business though, so it's not all bad news.

[Wabaloolah]

One poll should not be taken in isolation. Both Tories and Labour down but Lib Dems up a lot and BP up a bit too.

Doesn't make a lot of sense really. Suspect Tories are too high though

[BOBSCOUSE]

Only a referendum can stop this mess...

I guess we could be in the sane situation still, but it would break the deadlock in parliament

Not sure I can remember British Politics being in a state that could be described in such a manner - the lunatics really have taken over the asylum in the last few years!

[Wabaloolah]

I wouldn't worry too much about polling, they've been spectacularly wrong at the last three elections

[Jiminy Cricket]

they really didn't, they didn't have the numbers to make it work. There weren't enough Labour and Lib Dem MPs to form a majority. They also would have needed the SDLP (not a problem as they took the Labour whip anyway), and Scottish and Welsh Nationalists and the Greens and it would have given a majority of around one or two seats.

It would not have been stable, would have tottered along for a few months before an inevitable General Election and a likely Try landslide.

They should not have gone in with the Tories though, Clegg made a huge political mistake there for a few years of being in the limelight. They should have offered a less formal confidence and supply arrangement on a bill by bill basis. Had that happened then the Tory outright win in 2015 would not have happened as the Lib Dem meltdown would have been less severe.

Corbyn, Miliband and Brexit have all been consequences of Clegg's ineptitude

This is exactly right. Though, there is always some inevitable hindsight in these situations. I understood at the time why the LibDems went in with the Tories; I don't think I was all 'should have done confidence and supply instead' at the time. Though, Clegg et al should have been able to reason their way through it - being 'professional' politicians after all.

[Wabaloolah]

No there’s no further recourse I don’t think. Siân? Corky?

The establishment is the establishment. I won’t be surprised if they overturn it.

I know, I was being facetious! I won't be surprised if they do either

[filopastry]

One poll should not be taken in isolation. Both Tories and Labour down but Lib Dems up a lot and BP up a bit too.

Doesn't make a lot of sense really. Suspect Tories are too high though

Fully agree, that Kantar looks nuts, polling is really all over the place at present, more than I have ever seen it.

Paying more attention to Yougov and Ipsos-Mori than most as they did well on the Euro elections, and yougov's explanation of the "False Recall" issue seems compelling (although of course there can be lots of other polling errors as well)

The NI unification poll is interesting though, as relatively little polling is done there

[Andy]

they really didn't, they didn't have the numbers to make it work. There weren't enough Labour and Lib Dem MPs to form a majority. They also would have needed the SDLP (not a problem as they took the Labour whip anyway), and Scottish and Welsh Nationalists and the Greens and it would have given a majority of around one or two seats.

It would not have been stable, would have tottered along for a few months before an inevitable General Election and a likely Try landslide.

They should not have gone in with the Tories though, Clegg made a huge political mistake there for a few years of being in the limelight. They should have offered a less formal confidence and supply arrangement on a bill by bill basis. Had that happened then the Tory outright win in 2015 would not have happened as the Lib Dem meltdown would have been less severe.

Corbyn, Miliband and Brexit have all been consequences of Clegg's ineptitude

So they didn't have the numbers to create a coalition with Labour but they shouldn't have formed one with the Conservatives? What other options were there?

Or, if the Labour party had made the right Miliband their leader then it is unlikely Cameron would have been in power to have the referendum.

The biggest impact Clegg had was on the Lib Dems. They should have made it clearer to the voters what they achieved when in government - watering down the Tories' more extreme policies etc - and not taken all the shit that the Conservatives threw at them.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Brexit won't happen, the longer this goes on the more confident I am of it not happening. I have been saying this for a long time too. Nothing I have seen yet causes me to think I am wrong.

Whether it's due to a 2nd referendum or straight revocation, it won't happen

Well. Except that a No-Plan Brexit happens by default unless it is actually stopped by Parliament.

[Wabaloolah]

This is exactly right. Though, there is always some inevitable hindsight in these situations. I understood at the time why the LibDems went in with the Tories; I don't think I was all 'should have done confidence and supply instead' at the time. Though, Clegg et al should have been able to reason their way through it - being 'professional' politicians after all.

It was obvious when they made the decision they fucked themselves. The infamous chummy rose garden press conference was the icing on the cake.

Had Labour not fucked up the leadership election and elected Dave over Ed, they'd have pissed it in 2015