Topic: Julian Assange: the end is nigh?

[Jiminy Cricket]

It's again quite complex.

Manning had legitimate access to the top-secret data anyway, through their own security clearance. There was a kind of generic account on the base that Manning wanted to use because she believed it would have hidden who actually downloaded the data. But it was password-protected and Manning asked Assange for help cracking it. Manning sent a 'hexadecimal string' to someone called Nathaniel Frank (alleged to be Assange) to try to crack the full password. 'Frank' is reported to have passed the string to an expert, then later reported back to Manning to say 'no luck so far'.

Manning then used his own login to download the data files, which he passed to Wikileaks/Assange.

Here's a good, impartial account of what actually happened:

https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252489645/Forensic-expert-questions-US-claims-that-Assange-conspired-to-crack-military-password

It's not a clear-cut case by any means, and we can but hope for a fair trial (and that the US military doesn't pull any stunts to find a way to punish Assange outside of the judiciary if he's found innocent)


The whistle-blowing question is interesting. If someone knows a corporation/organisation is committing illegal/morally reprehensible acts, but has to 'hack' a computer system to get proof, does that turn them being a whistle-blower to a criminal?

So, you seem to accept that there are grounds to suspect that Assange might be guilty of a crime in the US. And it seems that UK judiciary feel similarly (that there is a legitimate case to answer). Ergo, he will be deported to stand trial to that his guilt or innocence might be properly determined.

[Nobby Reserve]

So, you seem to accept that there are grounds to suspect that Assange might be guilty of a crime in the US. And it seems that UK judiciary feel similarly (that there is a legitimate case to answer). Ergo, he will be deported to stand trial to that his guilt or innocence might be properly determined.

Is looking at some information that may help crack a password then saying 'no, sorry, can't help' really 'conspiracy to hack'?

Especially when the information was freely available to the whistle-blower anyway?

And, like the point was made to the UK Court by the a former criminal investigator in the US Army, is what Assange did any different to what journalists sometimes do (ie, providing some assistance to a source in cracking a password)?

[bigbonedrawky]

Interesting examples you bring up.

The UK high court ruled against deporting Lauri Love to the US but thought it essential he still stand trial in UK. He said this of their ruling: “Very happy, relieved, very thankful for the High Court, for the judges”

The Pentagon Papers were put together and released by Daniel Ellsberg. Following their release, he admitted he gave the papers to the press saying: "I felt that as an American citizen, as a responsible citizen, I could no longer cooperate in concealing this information from the American public. I did this clearly at my own jeopardy and I am prepared to answer to all the consequences of this decision". He was freed as a result of a mistrial, given the mitigating circumstances of those trying to prosecute him.

I'm not seeing how either of these situations sound similar to Assange. Both of them seemed more intent on facing judgment for their actions than Assange, who has repeatedly fled various charges. You aren't making extradition to the US seem like something he ought to fear, and I'm inclined to think that facing due process in the Swedish judicial system - and their investigations into his (in his own words) decision to have unprotected sex with a woman without her consent - also sounds like something he didn't have a valid reason to avoid.

It was actually McKinnen whom I was referring to but like Love the Home secretary blocked his extradition on human rights grounds and more than likely saved his life.
As for Ellsburg "I felt as an American Citizen " he understands that he stands under/acknowledes US law and he was in the US at the time. I for example as a British citizen do not stand under US law I do not acknowledge their jurisdiction over me.
Assange has also had threats to his life from senior lawmakers in the US from Drones to the Electric Chair on the bizarre claims of treason in essence he's already been found guilty and I seriously doubt he'd get a fair trial anyway.
All this because he helped embarrass the US gov. Ironic that the most widely viewed part of the leak involved the murder of another journalist / cameraman in Iraq. And to date Only Manning and Assange have been punished regarding that crime...No surprise there. 

What interst me more regarding this case is why do you as a British Citizen care more about his extradition than the multiple crimes and misdemeanors by the US Gov highlighted in the leaks ?
I understand some people are paid per post when it comes to influencing public opinion on matters regarding things like this, but what is it that drives you ?     

[TepidT2O]

Classycarra the paid shill.

Didn’t see that coming

[Jiminy Cricket]

It was actually McKinnen whom I was referring to but like Love the Home secretary blocked his extradition on human rights grounds and more than likely saved his life.
As for Ellsburg "I felt as an American Citizen " he understands that he stands under/acknowledes US law and he was in the US at the time. I for example as a British citizen do not stand under US law I do not acknowledge their jurisdiction over me.
Assange has also had threats to his life from senior lawmakers in the US from Drones to the Electric Chair on the bizarre claims of treason in essence he's already been found guilty and I seriously doubt he'd get a fair trial anyway.
All this because he helped embarrass the US gov. Ironic that the most widely viewed part of the leak involved the murder of another journalist / cameraman in Iraq. And to date Only Manning and Assange have been punished regarding that crime...No surprise there. 

What interest me more regarding this case is why do you as a British Citizen care more about his extradition than the multiple crimes and misdemeanors by the US Gov highlighted in the leaks ?
I understand some people are paid per post when it comes to influencing public opinion on matters regarding things like this, but what is it that drives you ?     

Loads more whataboutery, I see.

Let's test out your hypothesis of taking no legal action in cases of international crimes and how we should react to them: if a foreign national should conspire to bump off bigbonedrawky, the UK judiciary - on some sort of weird human rights principle - should not be provided the opportunity to have the suspect extradited to stand trial. Is that correct?

[Jiminy Cricket]

Classycarra the paid shill.

Didn’t see that coming

Yep. Bizarre.

[bigbonedrawky]

Classycarra the paid shill.

Didn’t see that coming

Not at all, we all know why he's here, he like you and me are Liverpool fans but like I say why on a personal level does he and to a
similar extent yourself, seem to care more about Assange been extradited for highlighting the crimes of the US Gov, than the crimes themself ?
(Which nclude among many other nefarious actss murder and spying on our politcians.)
I'd understand it to some extent if you or he were US citizens or part of the US military or something but your not.
I'm genuinly interested btw for example do you see him as a snitch or does it make you uncomfortable and question your belief in liberal democracy
or something like that ?

[Linudden]

Classy can be many things but I really can't picture the lad being paid by the CIA.

That being said, it always has its charm when things escalate quickly

[classycarra]

If I was being a smart arse I'd say 'I as a British citizen do not stand under US law so I do not acknowledge or care about their jurisdiction' but I'll try to be less like that!

But in all seriousness I think you've inferred something about what I care about, based on me staying on the topic of this RAWK thread - which I think is overstretching, and not the best way to guess what people care about.

I guess I'd turn the question around to you though, because I wonder, why is it that you seem to (in this thread on Assange) care more about the crimes of the US government - as you refer to them - than both the alleged and the established crimes Assange has committed?

You've taken my expectation and desire that he face due process (in Sweden, but now here too after he broke bail terms) as a justification and apology of all alleged crimes committed in the name of the US gov.

Following your logic that you've used in assessing my thoughts, it would seem like you don't care about 'the crimes themselves' committed and alleged to have been committed by Assange because he was involved in leaking some evidence of US gov crimes

Classy can be many things but I really can't picture the lad being paid by the CIA.

I should state that I could be available to freelance at the right price. Cost of living is beginning to bite for me!

[Nobby Reserve]

If I was being a smart arse I'd say 'I as a British citizen do not stand under US law so I do not acknowledge or care about their jurisdiction' but I'll try to be less like that!

But in all seriousness I think you've inferred something about what I care about, based on me staying on the topic of this RAWK thread - which I think is overstretching, and not the best way to guess what people care about.

I guess I'd turn the question around to you though, because I wonder, why is it that you seem to (in this thread on Assange) care more about the crimes of the US government - as you refer to them - than both the alleged and the established crimes Assange has committed?

You've taken my expectation and desire that he face due process (in Sweden, but now here too after he broke bail terms) as a justification and apology of all alleged crimes committed in the name of the US gov.

Following your logic that you've used in assessing my thoughts, it would seem like you don't care about 'the crimes themselves' committed and alleged to have been committed by Assange because he was involved in leaking some evidence of US gov crimes
I should state that I could be available to freelance at the right price. Cost of living is beginning to bite for me!

You answered a question by not answering, then asking one of your own?

[bigbonedrawky]

Classy can be many things but I really can't picture the lad being paid by the CIA.

That being said, it always has its charm when things escalate quickly

Neither do I and I never said he was.

If I was being a smart arse I'd say 'I as a British citizen do not stand under US law so I do not acknowledge or care about their jurisdiction' but I'll try to be less like that!

But in all seriousness I think you've inferred something about what I care about, based on me staying on the topic of this RAWK thread - which I think is overstretching, and not the best way to guess what people care about.

I guess I'd turn the question around to you though, because I wonder, why is it that you seem to (in this thread on Assange) care more about the crimes of the US government - as you refer to them - than both the alleged and the established crimes Assange has committed?

You've taken my expectation and desire that he face due process (in Sweden, but now here too after he broke bail terms) as a justification and apology of all alleged crimes committed in the name of the US gov.

Following your logic that you've used in assessing my thoughts, it would seem like you don't care about 'the crimes themselves' committed and alleged to have been committed by Assange because he was involved in leaking some evidence of US gov crimes
I should state that I could be available to freelance at the right price. Cost of living is beginning to bite for me!

 I happen to believe the words of the US president when he spoke of a free press and holding governments to account been a vital part of Liberal Democracy etc  and because we have numerous US citizens on these boards and even politically influencial owners of LFC, then why not attempt to promt a change for the better. 
Going off topic here but as far as I know he has served his time for jumping bail in the UK and fwiw he should of gone back to Sweden but the Swedish prosecutor shouldn't of let him leave the country in the first place, but for whatever reason they did. I also think they should of interviewed him when he was in custody in the UK  but they they didn't.
Now back to the topic of this thread ie the extradition to the US.
I haven't assessed your thoughts I'm asking you what are your thoughts ie  why you seem to care less about the crimes highlighted in the lieaks but seem so adamant he should be extradited...
Given your presumed love for the ideals of a liberal democracy...What are your thought s is they any conflict of principles ?     

[Jiminy Cricket]

Neither do I and I never said he was.
 
 I happen to believe the words of the US president when he spoke of a free press and holding governments to account been a vital part of Liberal Democracy etc  and because we have numerous US citizens on these boards and even politically influencial owners of LFC, then why not attempt to promt a change for the better. 
Going off topic here but as far as I know he has served his time for jumping bail in the UK and fwiw he should of gone back to Sweden but the Swedish prosecutor shouldn't of let him leave the country in the first place, but for whatever reason they did. I also think they should of interviewed him when he was in custody in the UK  but they they didn't.
Now back to the topic of this thread ie the extradition to the US.
I haven't assessed your thoughts I'm asking you what are your thoughts ie  why you seem to care less about the crimes highlighted in the lieaks but seem so adamant he should be extradited...
Given your presumed love for the ideals of a liberal democracy...What are your thought s is they any conflict of principles ?   

Why all the strawman arguments? The topic at hand is Assange and his escape/evasion of justice. I expect that a thread discussing the crimes of the US state would be perfectly permissible here. Why not start one? Why do you continually resort to whataboutism?

[Yorkykopite]

Why all the strawman arguments? The topic at hand is Assange and his escape/evasion of justice. I expect that a thread discussing the crimes of the US state would be perfectly permissible here. Why not start one? Why do you continually resort to whataboutism?

Is it 'whataboutism' or 'whataboutery'? I always say 'Whataboutery' but maybe I'll change now.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Is it 'whataboutism' or 'whataboutery'? I always say 'Whataboutery' but maybe I'll change now.

Of course, it is usually/normally 'whataboutery' - it is what I usually write too. But 'whataboutism' seemed to work better in this case since its use is habitual to the point of compulsion.

[Yorkykopite]

Of course, it is usually/normally 'whataboutery' - it is what I usually write too. But 'whataboutism' seemed to work better in this case since its use is habitual to the point of compulsion.

These things do matter of course. I remember, yonks ago, being in an argument where someone used the word "Bennery" instead of (the more usual) 'Bennism'. It was meant to be derisive, and it sort of was. And then the even more famous - indeed murderous - schisms on the Far Left where Trots insisted on being called 'Trotskyists' rather than "Trotskyites' by 'Stalinists", or indeed 'Stalinites'. The assumption was that "ists" signified a body of serious philosophy behind it, whereas "ites" just meant a frivolous faction.

I could never sympathise with that. The suffix "ite" seemed fine to me (not that I was ever a Trot of course). Something to do with being a Kopite I suppose. There again, as a socialist I wouldn't like to be called a 'socialite'.

Sorry about all the irrelevance. It's just that you got me thinking JC.

Besides I'm one of those RAWK posters who is paid by the word by the Central Intelligence Agency. This post will allow me to get pissed tonight. Thank you for listening. 

[TepidT2O]

Not at all, we all know why he's here, he like you and me are Liverpool fans but like I say why on a personal level does he and to a
similar extent yourself, seem to care more about Assange been extradited for highlighting the crimes of the US Gov, than the crimes themself ?
(Which nclude among many other nefarious actss murder and spying on our politcians.)
I'd understand it to some extent if you or he were US citizens or part of the US military or something but your not.
I'm genuinly interested btw for example do you see him as a snitch or does it make you uncomfortable and question your belief in liberal democracy
or something like that ?

Like myself?

You’re making up things I havent said!

Personally, I’d have far more sympathy for him if he were actually a journalist

[Nobby Reserve]

Neither do I and I never said he was.
 
 I happen to believe the words of the US president when he spoke of a free press and holding governments to account been a vital part of Liberal Democracy etc  and because we have numerous US citizens on these boards and even politically influencial owners of LFC, then why not attempt to promt a change for the better. 
Going off topic here but as far as I know he has served his time for jumping bail in the UK and fwiw he should of gone back to Sweden but the Swedish prosecutor shouldn't of let him leave the country in the first place, but for whatever reason they did. I also think they should of interviewed him when he was in custody in the UK  but they they didn't.
Now back to the topic of this thread ie the extradition to the US.
I haven't assessed your thoughts I'm asking you what are your thoughts ie  why you seem to care less about the crimes highlighted in the lieaks but seem so adamant he should be extradited...
Given your presumed love for the ideals of a liberal democracy...What are your thought s is they any conflict of principles ?   

I'd give up pushing for an answer. They're talking correct verbiage now.

[Jiminy Cricket]

These things do matter of course. I remember, yonks ago, being in an argument where someone used the word "Bennery" instead of (the more usual) 'Bennism'. It was meant to be derisive, and it sort of was. And then the even more famous - indeed murderous - schisms on the Far Left where Trots insisted on being called 'Trotskyists' rather than "Trotskyites' by 'Stalinists", or indeed 'Stalinites'. The assumption was that "ists" signified a body of serious philosophy behind it, whereas "ites" just meant a frivolous faction.

Sounds all very People's Front of Judea.

I could never sympathise with that. The suffix "ite" seemed fine to me (not that I was ever a Trot of course). Something to do with being a Kopite I suppose. There again, as a socialist I wouldn't like to be called a 'socialite'.

No? I've always thought of you as a 'socialite'.

Sorry about all the irrelevance. It's just that you got me thinking JC.

Well now. I think I could live with being referred to as JC rather than Jiminy Cricket. But I imagine few here would be willing to follow your lead.

Besides I'm one of those RAWK posters who is paid by the word by the Central Intelligence Agency. This post will allow me to get pissed tonight. Thank you for listening.

So, the rumours are true then. BBR vindicated. How do I get on the payroll?

[Nobby Reserve]

There again, as a socialist

<<< spits drink over screen >>>

[Jiminy Cricket]

<<< spits drink over screen >>>

So, Yorkykopite fails the purity test, I guess. I suppose that goes for me and anyone else whose views at all differ to yours.

[Yorkykopite]

So, Yorkykopite fails the purity test, I guess. I suppose that goes for me and anyone else who's views at all differ to yours.

Nobby is the Keeper of the Light. He gets to pronounce on who believes in what and whether they do it properly.

[Nobby Reserve]

So, Yorkykopite fails the purity test, I guess. I suppose that goes for me and anyone else whose views at all differ to yours.

Nobby is the Keeper of the Light. He gets to pronounce on who believes in what and whether they do it properly.

 

Spare me

[Jiminy Cricket]

Nobby is the Keeper of the Light. He gets to pronounce on who believes in what and whether they do it properly.

Spare me

You seem positively giddy, Nobby.

[bigbonedrawky]

Like myself?

You’re making up things I havent said!

Personally, I’d have far more sympathy for him if he were actually a journalist

Well you have the perfect opportunity to set the record straight he exposed warcrimes were do you stand on that ?
Is it worse than the war crimes themselves which have gone unpunished. Should warcrimes be punished ?
If so is it the head of state,the individual or both who should be extradited to the haigh ? 

So you don't see him as a journalist do you see him as a publisher ?
And as a publisher do you see him as part of the free press ?
And do you think he's worthy of his Sam Adams award ?
Do you believe journalist should have more human rights than you or I ?

[bigbonedrawky]

I'd give up pushing for an answer. They're talking correct verbiage now.

I once asked a poster what keech meant she told me the answer... Does verbiage mean the same thing ? 

[TepidT2O]

Well you have the perfect opportunity to set the record straight he exposed warcrimes were do you stand on that ?
Is it worse than the war crimes themselves which have gone unpunished. Should warcrimes be punished ?
If so is it the head of state,the individual or both who should be extradited to the haigh ? 

So you don't see him as a journalist do you see him as a publisher ?
And as a publisher do you see him as part of the free press ?
And do you think he's worthy of his Sam Adams award ?
Do you believe journalist should have more human rights than you or I ?

No I don’t really see him as a journalist or publisher, that’s not to say there is no element of them in what he’s done, but they’re not words I would use to describe what he’s done.  Not in any normal or clear sense anyway. And do I see him as a foreign agent? Not in a clear or traditional sense, no.

And would I get put in prison for deliberately skipping bail? Well yes I would.  There are similarities to the Pinto case of course

[bigbonedrawky]

No I don’t really see him as a journalist or publisher, that’s not to say there is no element of them in what he’s done, but they’re not words I would use to describe what he’s done.  Not in any normal or clear sense anyway. And do I see him as a foreign agent? Not in a clear or traditional sense, no.

And would I get put in prison for deliberately skipping bail? Well yes I would.  There are similarities to the Pinto case of course

We'll agree to disagree about him been a publisher
And I dont think anyone would disagree with skipping bail while in the UK (because you stand under UK laws) but in Germany for example escaping prison isn't even a crime as it is seen as basic human nature and an entirely natural response.
But whatabout  War Crimes ?  A country that doesn't accept extradition for any of it's war criminals, want's to extradite someone for alledged hacking and publishing sensitive data ?
Should War Criminals face extradition too ?

[Jiminy Cricket]

FFS.

[TepidT2O]

We'll agree to disagree about him been a publisher
And I dont think anyone would disagree with skipping bail while in the UK (because you stand under UK laws) but in Germany for example escaping prison isn't even a crime as it is seen as basic human nature and an entirely natural response.
But whatabout  War Crimes ?  A country that doesn't accept extradition for any of it's war criminals, want's to extradite someone for alledged hacking and publishing sensitive data ?
Should War Criminals face extradition too ?

Yes, why isn’t cheese illegal?

Why are there sheep?

[bigbonedrawky]

Yes, why isn’t cheese illegal?

Why are there sheep?

Dont worry my red brother I understand why you can't answer that simple question (even while the Russian are commiting war crimes ) but the question
now is, do you ?
Ps 
You just won me a PS network card...downside is he sent me a US region card